Ironrooster beat me to it. I was just going to say virtually the same thing. However if somene were to ask how I would define the two,
IMHO, A Model Railroader is someone who models, to any extent, anything that involves small railroads. If you like it do it. If you have a layout of any kind or size, are in the planning stage of one, are in the collecting acquisition of items stage, or even the dream stage, or any combination, as far as I'm concerned you are a Model Railroader.
Now, as to Collector. Again, IMO, a collector would be someone who acquires Locomotives, rolling stock etc. and has no intention of modifying them for whatever reason. You buy it, put it up or on display, but intend on doing nothing to it but look at it or know you have it. This does not apply to the afore described Model Railroader who for what ever his reasoning or desire has way more equipment than can or will use. If he or she has no intention of running particular locos or cars then I guess If I must label, they would be Model Railroaders who also collects.
I guess the main difference is what is the intent of the person with the items owned. But really, must there be a label?
There are many stages in Model Railroading, just like the Martial Arts or the Boy Scouts or probably more comparable, an education. Some are satisfied with various levels within, and some desire to go the limit and beyond. A person with a Doctorate is not necessarily more intelligent than a person with a High School education, just more educated. I don't think that makes a person any more or less a Model Railroader just not the same goals. I'm in awe of what again, I refer to as a rivet counter, and I don't view that as a bad name, just a distinctive title to differentiate those who choose to model to perfection. Those who define "model" in the strictest sense. And that by no means is a bad thing or undesirable. Their work is awesome and I look at it far too long in admiration. But I just as much enjoy the thought of someone who is having fun with their own personal level of Model Railroading. Like I have said before, I really don't care what you choose to do in your freetime or what you choose to call it. But please, try to enjoy yourself. After all freetime is hard to come by.
This is just my personal opinion, and in no way do I intend to present it as anyone elses, or insinuate that anyone elses opinions are wrong.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
Actually, Sheldon did not include scenery in his definition.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI have a simple definition: Model Railroaders build layouts, the trains are just an accessory, they may be the most important "accessory" on the layout, but the goal is the layout as a whole. It may be very prototypical with well defined goals, it may be very casual - but the goal is an operational layout which in some way, conveys some sense of real life as it relates to rail transportation....Sheldon
I have a simple definition:
Model Railroaders build layouts, the trains are just an accessory, they may be the most important "accessory" on the layout, but the goal is the layout as a whole. It may be very prototypical with well defined goals, it may be very casual - but the goal is an operational layout which in some way, conveys some sense of real life as it relates to rail transportation.
Sheldon
And I think it's a better definition for not having it.
But I have come to the conclusion that we should not be so restrictive. For me, if you think you are a model railroader, then you are. It really doesn't matter which part or parts of the hobby appeal to you. Personally, I love them all.
Enjoy
Paul
Sheldon said:Glass cases full of expensive models built by others are the other extreme, that's just collecting and really has very little to do with our hobby.
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I agree..Models that is collected and shown in glass cases is just that collecting..
I consider myself a collector/operator since I use my collection of HO shortline IPD boxcars.
Thankfully I am avoiding that trap in N Scale-even though I find its hard to look away from these eye catching cars.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE Some ways up-stream, Sheldon offered a highly accurate definition of the term model railroader, as opposed to collector and any other supposed hobby subdivision. He correctly points out that model railroaders build scenicked layouts (THE goal of every model railroader according to MR editorials spanning decades, by the way) ---------------------------- I'm not to sure about that..I been fortunate enough to visit many home layouts over the years and have seen 4x8 layouts with painted on grass and roads to highly scenic super size layouts.
Some ways up-stream, Sheldon offered a highly accurate definition of the term model railroader, as opposed to collector and any other supposed hobby subdivision. He correctly points out that model railroaders build scenicked layouts (THE goal of every model railroader according to MR editorials spanning decades, by the way)
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I'm not to sure about that..I been fortunate enough to visit many home layouts over the years and have seen 4x8 layouts with painted on grass and roads to highly scenic super size layouts.
Larry,
I would agree that even minimalist scenery qualifies as modeling, especially if the layout goals are operation focused. Again, be it ultra realisum, operation, or capturing history, the layout as a whole is the focus/main objective in "model railroading", not just locos or rolling stock.
Even a green grass mat and some houses attempts to resemble real llife as it relates to rail transportation.
Again, some of us do both, but I do see them as seperate persuits.
Glass cases full of expensive models built by others are the other extreme, that's just collecting and really has very little to do with our hobby.
CNJ831 said:Certainly many model railroaders may also collect models, be rail fans, etc., but their primary hobby interest will always be their layouts.
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I suppose I walk a fine line when it comes to my ISLs being my primary interest..For me I love to railfan as much as I do switching cars..You see to my mind both goes together like peanut butter,honey and hot biscuits but,there's nothing like watching the prototype go about their business especially while yard switching or switching industries.
As I mention before I been using a form of "minimalist" layout building/detailing for years.I never detailed any of my ISLs to the Nth degree like you and many others do because my main goal is prototypical operation in a industrial sitting.
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However,the majority of the layouts I have visited can come under the minimalist definition-this will include some smaller type clubs.
Perhaps MR editors needs to visit average joe modeler layouts instead of the super layouts that they feature in MR?
mobilman44 Hi! This overall Forum is called "trains", catering to ALL the aspects of interest for those who love trains! Model railroading is one portion of it, and pure collecting is another. Of course the lines can be blurred (i.e. I collect first generation ATSF diesels that I modify and run on my layout), but all of these areas of interest fall under that huge heading of "the love of trains/railroads". IMHO, there just should not be a "vs." in this - and an "or" would be more appropriate. ENJOY, Mobilman44
Hi!
This overall Forum is called "trains", catering to ALL the aspects of interest for those who love trains!
Model railroading is one portion of it, and pure collecting is another. Of course the lines can be blurred (i.e. I collect first generation ATSF diesels that I modify and run on my layout), but all of these areas of interest fall under that huge heading of "the love of trains/railroads".
IMHO, there just should not be a "vs." in this - and an "or" would be more appropriate.
ENJOY,
Mobilman44
Indeed, various different interests do fall under the heading of the love of trains, but that does not qualify them all as being part of model railroading. A truly all encompassing title to include all individuals in this broad range of potential interests would have to be something more like "railroad enthusiast"...but that really doesn't jibe with the banner's name at the head of this particular page, nor the specific nature of the hobby.
The adult hobby of model railroading originated as a machinist's/model craftsman's hobby. That, alone, I would say, sets it apart from any simply collecting hobby, as well as many other similar pursuits, since the modeling aspect is totally missing. It's not inappropriate to acknowledge obvious and valid differences and attempting to point out, or clarify the difference between them.
Some ways up-stream, Sheldon offered a highly accurate definition of the term model railroader, as opposed to collector and any other supposed hobby subdivision. He correctly points out that model railroaders build scenicked layouts (THE goal of every model railroader according to MR editorials spanning decades, by the way) and on which the trains may be the initial instigator, but generally end up just a major accessory. This aspect sets these indivduals quite apart from any of the other more-or-less tangential railroad interests, like simply collecting, armchairing, etc. Certainly many model railroaders may also collect models, be rail fans, etc., but their primary hobby interest will always be their layouts.
CNJ831
CNJ--where'd you go?
Actually, my layout includes a certain character by the name of 'Ol' Fred' Thompson. He is the co-founder of the Williston Hysterical (thanks RAY!!) Society. He is my excuse ---er---reason for the stray 2-8-8-4 that I found at a Goodwill recently
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Maybe I am into model railroading and Collecting model railroading items i find choice. Maybe I am into the hobby because its fun and relieves stress for me. Maybe its because its a hobby i come to so i can avoid the labels others paste on me that cant get over themselves. I thought if I want to be a Model Railroader than I am a model railroader by my standards and not the shallow pool of others judging me. I am a success because i am having fun and not on the cover of Model Railroader Magazine. I am enjoying the hobby when kids smile and laugh at the sight at my engines at an event that was free and the parents could enjoy it too. Maybe model railroading is not an exclusive clan for elderly men with too much time and money. Maybe i can enjoy it too and learn my lessons through Model Railroader Magazine were i am not judged but i am taught how to make greatness on my layout. Its best to encourage a fellow hobbist and not kick him for his true love of locomotives or possibly just modeling. Dont like the separist movement on the forums. All should be accepted, all should be allowed to speak, all should have fun with the greatest hobby ever. So need to remember the days of childhood and the start of this hobby.
BRAKIE Why wait? Why not build a highly detailed ISL so youse can use that nice equipment you're stock piling? Jim old friend,You're like me,you're not getting any younger as the days,weeks and months pass.
Why wait? Why not build a highly detailed ISL so youse can use that nice equipment you're stock piling?
Jim old friend,You're like me,you're not getting any younger as the days,weeks and months pass.
Worry not Larry!
I have cunning plans, and even a woman who loves me who wants to play with my trains. I have plans to move in the next few months to try to move life forward. The apartments I've been in just don't work well for using things like power saws, air compressors and mitre saws etc! =P Whats an ISL for those of us who live in a cave?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I probably fit most of the categories.
I have a 14x23 layout under construction, but I have more stuff than I could use on it. So I have been an accumuIator, but I just bought a basement for my retirement layout that should be capable of using all the S I have and then some.
But I have all my trains from my days in HO and O, they were bought to be used but I am in S now; so I don't know what that category is.
And then there were those cute Bachmann HO sets of 1830's passenger trains that I bought on deep discount at Tuesday Morning just because.
And then there's the Sn2 stuff I have that doesn't really fit a layout following the Maryland and Pennsylvania Railroad.
And then there's the Lionel trains I have.
And I have all my son's N scale from when he was growing up.
And there's some G stuff I picked up along the way as well.
Maybe I should build a replica Hobby Shop instead of a layout.
But whatever categories I may be, in it's all been fun. And if retirement lasts long enough, I'll use it all.
I think it can be summed up in the Snap-Saw Axiom:
A modeler will cut up a $500 engine to get what he wants, and a collector wants a $500 engine.
A collector would buy a kit with no intention of ever building it, a model railroader would buy the kit with the intention of building and using the kit...even if he never actually gets around to it. The unbuilt kit is worth more as far as resale value. Unbuilt kits from say the forties or fifties can be worth quite a bit if they're in the original box and have the instructions etc., they're usually worth much more than the completed model of the same car, engine, building etc.
It's like buying an expensive bottle of wine. Some folks buy it to keep it unopened as a collector's item, some buy it to open it and drink it.
I Collectrun.....
Actually I go for a theme and fit the models in. LIke always there is so many ways to enjoy the hobby. One factor isn't better/worse than the other. But I'm not someone to just put it on the shelf to gawk at, it's gonna run, or like I own the all plastic non-running Big Boy, it would sit in the shops getting worked on.
For almost half a century I was more of a dreamer-accumulator than anything else, and some of my activities could have had me mistaken for a collector. There was the big stack of unbuilt kit locomotives, the even bigger stack of 'still in the original box' freight and passenger cars, the boxes containing structure kits appropriate to the time and place(s) I was going to model when I finally built my last-of-a-lifetime layout. Since my available running space (several rather small home layouts) could never absorb a significant percentage of my roster, I had no incentive to unpack, build and operate all of the items in those boxes.
Then everything changed!
I now have clear title to a two car garage, just enough space to build all the things I want for that dream layout! Suddenly there IS an incentive to de-box, assemble and 'decorate' those long-neglected kit locomotives and cars. Slowly but steadily, the piles are shrinking and the operating roster is expanding. The structures are still boxed up, but the day is approaching when the visible world will cover the three layers of trackwork under the hill on which the five-tiered pagoda and the sumo ring will be erected.
Funny. Now that I've begun to build a seriously large layout, my wife no longer questions why I've kept all those boxes. Nowadays, I keep the cars, on the layout or in cassettes, and throw away the boxes. Most of them, while adequate to contain the kits, are too small to hold the assembled models.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Jim said:
Since then I have been an accumulator/dreamer researching models, selling off bogus or older cruder equipment and buying more accurate equipment and planning for the day I have a basement or garage to build in again.
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CNJ831 jrbernier I think there are at least 3 different types here: Collector - Collects models for display(and usually does not 'build' much of anything). He/She values the 'rareness' of an item(#1 of 500). Modeler - Builds/Buys models that he runs on his layout or a club layout. Collectability or 'rareness' means little and he will 'kitbash' most anything to build what he wants if it is not commercially available. Accumulator - This type sort of 'runs his equipment', but has a 'stash' of models waiting to be setup or completed. He also 'talks' a lot! Jim Jim, from long experience in the hobby I would suggest the modifying of your "Accumulator" class to perhaps the more accurate designation "Dreamer-Accumulator". This would then include all those hobbyists (and I've known many) who have never had anything more than maybe a 6' run of straight track mounted on a narrow board, but who think that they are accumulating equipment for a huge dream layout they plan to build "someday". The sad fact is that most are destined to die of old age with closets filled with equipment and kits that never turned at wheel, or got built. CNJ831
jrbernier I think there are at least 3 different types here: Collector - Collects models for display(and usually does not 'build' much of anything). He/She values the 'rareness' of an item(#1 of 500). Modeler - Builds/Buys models that he runs on his layout or a club layout. Collectability or 'rareness' means little and he will 'kitbash' most anything to build what he wants if it is not commercially available. Accumulator - This type sort of 'runs his equipment', but has a 'stash' of models waiting to be setup or completed. He also 'talks' a lot! Jim
I think there are at least 3 different types here:
Jim
Jim, from long experience in the hobby I would suggest the modifying of your "Accumulator" class to perhaps the more accurate designation "Dreamer-Accumulator". This would then include all those hobbyists (and I've known many) who have never had anything more than maybe a 6' run of straight track mounted on a narrow board, but who think that they are accumulating equipment for a huge dream layout they plan to build "someday". The sad fact is that most are destined to die of old age with closets filled with equipment and kits that never turned at wheel, or got built.
By the definitions found above, I would fit neatly into the Modeler/Accumulator/Dreamer category!
I have bought models, and in some cases modified them, and ran them on my layouts. I have built two layouts up to the trackwork phase and ran trains on both layouts. The first was a garage layout 16x19' with a complete mainline and subscenery under construction when I had to move. It was sectional and was sold. the Second layout was a basement layout 14x25' with a 10 track staging yard and the mainline was nearing completion when my (now ex-wife) kicked me out of the house.
Collectors gather railroad equipment models to admire individually, in or out of a layout setting. For them, if they have some sort of layout, it is just an accessory for the Locomotive. An elaborate display case of sorts.
Yes, some people do both, and mix the two very deeply. Others are very exlusively one or the other.
How to tell which you are:
Do you have a layout? Or have you had one? Or will you be buiding one soon?
Do you have locomotives from dozens of different railroads and dozens of different eras?
It has little to do with how much stuff you have, but more to with a defined purpose.
I have over 100 locomotives but I don't have one:
UP Big Boy, GG1, N&W J, UP Challenger, PRR K4, UP FEF, NYC 4-6-4, UP gas turbine, Erie Triplex, Etc,Etc.
BECAUSE - I don't model any of those roads and none of that motive power is plausable for my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
I guess that makes me a modeler.
CNJ831 Jim, from long experience in the hobby I would suggest the modifying of your "Accumulator" class to perhaps the more accurate designation "Dreamer-Accumulator". This would then include all those hobbyists (and I've known many) who have never had anything more than maybe a 6' run of straight track mounted on a narrow board, but who think that they are accumulating equipment for a huge dream layout they plan to build "someday". The sad fact is that most are destined to die of old age with closets filled with equipment and kits that never turned at wheel, or got built. CNJ831
I was reading this and it occured to me that one could have "Accumulator" AND "Dreamer-Accumulator" as two seperate classes. The accumulator would eventually get some type of layout going--and I'm not thinking of a Barrowsian type either--while the dreamer, well, could not even get a static diorama up.
Now, as far as my 70+ locomotives--we cycle them in/out of the divisions as needed---
Graffen wm3798 If you like running your trains, and can't stand the idea of them idling away in a dust covered box, you'll love this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ8IjZ3tUas "I threw the box away!" My favorite line! Lee I love it! Its in the same wonderful spirit as the worlds best motor show: "Top Gear"
wm3798 If you like running your trains, and can't stand the idea of them idling away in a dust covered box, you'll love this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ8IjZ3tUas "I threw the box away!" My favorite line! Lee
If you like running your trains, and can't stand the idea of them idling away in a dust covered box, you'll love this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ8IjZ3tUas
"I threw the box away!" My favorite line!
Lee
I love it! Its in the same wonderful spirit as the worlds best motor show: "Top Gear"
So did I, I have thrown away almost every box of everything I have bought too.
I collect trains... then chop them up, kitbash them and run the wheels off them on my tiny layout.
Have fun with your trains
~G4
19 Years old, modeling the Cowlitz, Chehalis, and Cascade Railroad of Western Washington in 1927 in 6X6 feet.
I really don't see why there would be a "versus" in collectors & model railroader. Having played with trains since the '50s, I have always considered myself to be both. And, "outsiders" typically look at "more than one engine" as being a "collection".
Yes, there are some folks that are true collectors, amassing a number of locos and/or cars and never running them on tracks. And the problem with this is ????
We in the Hobby all have are specialties and preferences. Aside from the obvious differences in scale and railroad, we differentiate ourselves with our pick of eras, location, power (steam/diesel/electric), scenery (mountain/plains/coast), degree of detail, etc., etc. And of course there is a huge group out there that "mixes and matches" the above.
The thing is - and IMHO the only one that really matters - is that we all love trains, and we should "do what it takes" to respect each others preferences.
Hey, ENJOY !!!!
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I don't care. I love trains real ones, toy ones, model ones. I love chasing them, photographing them, collecting them, displaying them looking at them, running them. The only think I don't like is breaking them. I almost cringe when I take a new Proto-2000 locomotive out of the box and see all those whip antenna, MU hoses, fine horns, hand rails, knowing by the end of the operating session one of those will probably be broken. sigh.
CNJ831 Driline I would like to hear from a collector as to what they think. Reading this post, I see not one "true" collector has responded. And you won't, because a true collector would have no interest in perusing a modelers' forum such as this. CNJ831
Driline I would like to hear from a collector as to what they think. Reading this post, I see not one "true" collector has responded.
I would like to hear from a collector as to what they think. Reading this post, I see not one "true" collector has responded.
And you won't, because a true collector would have no interest in perusing a modelers' forum such as this.
John:
I tried to get this one fellow I know up here to come on this forum and the response was----"why should I?" Like you said that they would, he quite bluntly told me he had NO interest in discussing why he collects the trains the way he did.