It may be foolish (although I don't happen to think so...), but the point is that some fellows who would love to be able to buy some affordable RTR trains-that-they-could-really-use are not having their desires or needs met. Not everyone models the Pennsy or the UP. A few typical 2-8-X from other roads would, I am sure, be snapped up if BLI or Atlas or P2K made them and they looked halfways true to each road name offered.
Don't get me wrong...I am a happy camper these glory days of Pennsy modelling/collecting/just having fun, but I feel for the many, many other guys who could use a darned break for a change!!! I would love to read of the enthusiasm and excitement from others if, once the UP 9000 and Q2 and Y6b are out of the way, BLI would take a risk and produce a Harriman Pacific for Ray Breyer and others who would love to get their mitts on one.
C'mon, BLI, throw these many fellas a bone!!!
-Crandell
A couple of points from a modeler (not a collector) of PRR. I've wanted a Q2 for awhile as a "special occasion" train. My only option was obscure, older brass versions well outside of my price range that are DC and without sound. I'm not paying $1,800.00 for that.
Needless to say, I thought to myself "Why would any mainstream manufacturer make an affordable, up-to-date Q2? It had such a short running life in comparison to other engines that there probably aren't many people who would want it."
Besides I thought to myself, whoever did manufacture such an engine would be flamed for being a "sellout" to the collectors or ignoring the needs and wants of the hordes of modelers who wanted 2-8-0's and camelbacks.
So, BLI made my wishlist item (surprise, surprise). Flaming ensues on boards as I figured would happen based on my watching boards. I'm happy though. I'll plunk my $600 hard-earned dollars down for it, just like I plunked my cash down for the M1b, the T1 and the J's.
I am curious about how the engine will work on 22" curves but I was surprised when I got the T-1 to run on 18" curves. Granted, it's ugly but in a tunnel, who cares?
As an analogy, I wouldn't personally buy a camelback even if it was exquisite and sold for $1.00. Others would. However, I wouldn't get on the camelback thread though and complain that they were making those instead of the Q2. I'm just making a couple observations.
The point I'm trying to make is that we all model different eras, different lines and we have our personal favorites and our dislikes. It's foolishness to complain about any manufacturer making an engine that meets the needs and wants of a segment of the overall market. Model railroading needs more positive support. It doesn't need an orthodoxy about what is right or wrong.
Barry, I have BLI's earlier Paragon T1 Duplex. Its two outer drivers are flanged and the middle two are blind. I can get mine around 22" curves, but it's a weird event, lemme tell ya. Note that BLI included a pair of flanged drivers for those who wanted all flanged axles.
On BLI's list about a year ago someone stated that he could get his through true #4 snap switches that he used in his yard....flanged. You can imagine my reply; something about excrement from a male bovine.
ndbprr It is rigid frame not articulated. The comment made to me was the drivers have a lot of side play. It also has a brass boiler shell. As I said earlier everything BLI makes is out of my price range.
It is rigid frame not articulated. The comment made to me was the drivers have a lot of side play. It also has a brass boiler shell. As I said earlier everything BLI makes is out of my price range.
If it is not articulated the side play would have to be even weirder looking than I've imagined----at 22"? I even tried the template measurement on that ---how much side play would have to be there for that to work?
A non-articulated Q2. HMMMN. Sounds a little 'Static Display' to me------
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
selectorLooks like I was "close" with my guess of a $599 MSRP. Sheesh! I hope this thing will also make coffee in the morning. -Crandell
Looks like I was "close" with my guess of a $599 MSRP. Sheesh! I hope this thing will also make coffee in the morning.
Or, at least whip up a nice, scolding hot latte for you...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Going back a few posts....I'd say "Collectors" don't necessarily just put things on the shelves. I think the distiction between "Modeller" and "Collector" is that the first is interested in re-creating a particular railroad, or area, in realistic detail, and buys model engines to further that goal; the latter is more interested in the model themselves, and (although they often build layouts to run their equipment on) aren't that interested in reproducing a particular railroad or place as much as just enjoying the models they have.
Neither one is wrong, but it does seem a lot of models coming out now are of engines that in real life were pretty rare, apparently catering more towards the collector than the modeller. I mean, are there really that many Pennsy modellers who are going to buy this engine because it fits the time and place of their layout?? I'm sure there are many engines that would be more popular with more people. Even among the SPF's I'm sure a moderately priced / smooth running 2-8-2 or something as common would be much more popular.
Paul3 Barry,Well, since John doesn't seem interested in answering the question, why don't you give it a go? How is it that BLI's offering of large and unusual RTR steam engine models is "...yet another factor slowly choking out the real model railroaders of the hobby"? I can't figure it. It's sort of like someone complaining about how the newest BMW, Ferrari, or Hummer is stopping others from buying (or building) a Ford.
Barry,Well, since John doesn't seem interested in answering the question, why don't you give it a go? How is it that BLI's offering of large and unusual RTR steam engine models is "...yet another factor slowly choking out the real model railroaders of the hobby"? I can't figure it. It's sort of like someone complaining about how the newest BMW, Ferrari, or Hummer is stopping others from buying (or building) a Ford.
Why is this difficult to understand? Using a variation of your anology, what happens to the Ford buyers, who spend say $20,000 for their cars, when Ford starts producing only BMW, Ferrari and Hummer class vehicles at $50,000+ a pop? That's just what's going on with BLI (MTH was always rather outrageously priced). They started out with nice, reasonably priced, smaller steamers but now all of BLI's efforts are going into large, even overly-large, very high priced, steam. They are clearly the premier producer of steam in the marketplace. The current selection (i.e. in production now, not 2nd hand off eBay) of steam from other manufacturers is relatively minor. Where else can you turn?
The Q2 is listed at $599.99 and is indicative of where the price of virtually all BLI/MTH steam is headed. It's precisely the same senario brass followed over the past twenty years, with each new issue exceeding the last similar example by 10%-15% in price. Brass priced itself virtually out of business. The end result of the BLI/MTH race will be the pricing out of the majority of today's actual model railroaders with an interested in steam. If you don't think that is considered as a choking off of the hobby, I really don't know what to say, other than I'm constantly amazed by the shortsightedness of so many folks here.
John (CNJ),About the NHRHTA... While a couple BOD members are "serious" model railroaders, there is a strong contingent of not just folks who aren't modelers, but I'd even call them anti-model railroaders in the NHRHTA. There have been many opinions posted over the years on various NH Forums that we modelers should stop playing with little trains and donate our hobby money to one of the several Conn. museums that are preserving ex-NH equipment. I have to remind them from time to time that the NHRHTA was founded in 1961 as a model train enthusiast group, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.
I will certainly agree with you on that statement. I've seen how the modeling element is generally regarded on the NHRHTA forum. One of the reasons I no longer bother with it. However, it does tend to reflect my earlier point that while individuals belonging to these railroad historical societies might have an interest in collecting, only a very small percentage are actually modelers.
CNJ831
markpierce I bet BLI will turn it into an articulated, even doubly articulated. Anyone dare to challenge that opinion? Mark
I bet BLI will turn it into an articulated, even doubly articulated. Anyone dare to challenge that opinion?
Mark
Barry,Well, since John doesn't seem interested in answering the question, why don't you give it a go? How is it that BLI's offering of large and unusual RTR steam engine models is "...yet another factor slowly choking out the real model railroaders of the hobby"? I can't figure it. It's sort of like someone complaining about how the newest BMW, Ferrari, or Hummer is stopping others from buying (or building) a Ford.John (CNJ),About the NHRHTA... While a couple BOD members are "serious" model railroaders, there is a strong contingent of not just folks who aren't modelers, but I'd even call them anti-model railroaders in the NHRHTA. There have been many opinions posted over the years on various NH Forums that we modelers should stop playing with little trains and donate our hobby money to one of the several Conn. museums that are preserving ex-NH equipment. I have to remind them from time to time that the NHRHTA was founded in 1961 as a model train enthusiast group, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
twhite Good Lord, I have trouble enough explaining the prototypical overhang of my Yellowstones on a 36" radius, what's the overhang of that locomotive going to look like on a 22"? The mind boggles! Tom
Good Lord, I have trouble enough explaining the prototypical overhang of my Yellowstones on a 36" radius, what's the overhang of that locomotive going to look like on a 22"? The mind boggles!
Tom
I did a quick jigging of some pieces of paper in HO scale----At 22" I came up with a nightmarish looking 4" or so----I thought the other one was bad----
Mind, if anyone else's figures are different then---
ndbprr Ok, some independent thoughts here since BLI engines are way out of my price league. The PRRT&HS has a model commitee to work with manufacturers and make PRR engines, details and paint as realistic as the manufacturer is willing to do. I have known about the Q2 since last years convention which was in May of 2008. This engine has been a long time coming and was one of the really wanted engines by PRR modelers. That being said all PRR modelers are clammoring for a 2-8-0. the H8,9 and 10 classes were well over 1000 and nobody (even Bowser) has made an H8 or H9. So don't necessarily judge BLI for making this engine. Every indication was the market was there and would buy it. Now will come all the people who will want to know why it won;t take 18" radius curves or smaller. I totaly agree that 36" minimum curves and larger should be the norm for these engines. The PRRT&HS model commitee ( I am not a part of it) is doing a fabulous job of getting better and more accurate models of PRR equipment made and distributed most of which are based on PRRT&HS members wishs and wants.
Ok, some independent thoughts here since BLI engines are way out of my price league. The PRRT&HS has a model commitee to work with manufacturers and make PRR engines, details and paint as realistic as the manufacturer is willing to do. I have known about the Q2 since last years convention which was in May of 2008. This engine has been a long time coming and was one of the really wanted engines by PRR modelers. That being said all PRR modelers are clammoring for a 2-8-0. the H8,9 and 10 classes were well over 1000 and nobody (even Bowser) has made an H8 or H9. So don't necessarily judge BLI for making this engine. Every indication was the market was there and would buy it. Now will come all the people who will want to know why it won;t take 18" radius curves or smaller. I totaly agree that 36" minimum curves and larger should be the norm for these engines. The PRRT&HS model commitee ( I am not a part of it) is doing a fabulous job of getting better and more accurate models of PRR equipment made and distributed most of which are based on PRRT&HS members wishs and wants.
The fallacy in your conclusion, I'm afraid, is basing it on the assumption that every PRRT&HS member that wants a Q2 is actually an active modeler with a layout capable of handling such a locomotive, not just simply a PRR enthusiast/collector. It's particularly difficult to accept that there are 3,000-5,000 PRR modelers out there with really large layouts just waiting for such a monster of the rails to be offered so they can regularly operate it. This is especially true when one considers how few large layouts are evident in any survey.
Far more reasonable is the likelihood that a great percentage of the PRRT&HS members interested in obtaining the Q2 are in fact just PRR enthusiasts/collectors and not modelers at all. Certainly this is true of the NHRHTA, which I'm more familiar with, a group which also works diligently with the manufacturers. Nevertheless, the actual number of HO model railroaders of the NH in the group with significant-sized layouts constitutes only a small fraction of the membership.
markpierce selector This is not going to be very welcome news for many of you, but BLI has the Q2 listed for delivery late this year! That was the 4-4-6-4 Duplex which was the most powerful non-articulated steamer every produced. I bet BLI will turn it into an articulated, even doubly articulated. Anyone dare to challenge that opinion? Mark
selector This is not going to be very welcome news for many of you, but BLI has the Q2 listed for delivery late this year! That was the 4-4-6-4 Duplex which was the most powerful non-articulated steamer every produced.
This is not going to be very welcome news for many of you, but BLI has the Q2 listed for delivery late this year! That was the 4-4-6-4 Duplex which was the most powerful non-articulated steamer every produced.
Mark:
BLI might also do the same thing that they did with their T-1 4-4-4-4, blank out the second and third sets of driving wheels. Which will probably make it pull like crazy on straight track, and lose pulling power like crazy on curves, as the blank drivers will just be 'floating' over the track.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Paul3 John (CNJ),How is it that BLI's offering of large and unusual RTR steam engine models is "...yet another factor slowly choking out the real model railroaders of the hobby"?I thought "real model railroaders"(tm) rolled their own steam engines out of flat brass sheets, etched their own parts with acid, and cast their own parts from lead or pot metal? After all, "real model railroaders"(tm) like you are craftsmen, as you have been so to gracious to point out to us on many, many occasions. Why would any craftsman like yourself be so bothered by a Ready-To-Run model that a real craftsman would never buy in the first place? Obviously, such a model as this PRR loco only appeals to the those dabblers in the hobby, not "real model railroaders"(tm), so why complain? Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
John (CNJ),How is it that BLI's offering of large and unusual RTR steam engine models is "...yet another factor slowly choking out the real model railroaders of the hobby"?I thought "real model railroaders"(tm) rolled their own steam engines out of flat brass sheets, etched their own parts with acid, and cast their own parts from lead or pot metal? After all, "real model railroaders"(tm) like you are craftsmen, as you have been so to gracious to point out to us on many, many occasions.
Why would any craftsman like yourself be so bothered by a Ready-To-Run model that a real craftsman would never buy in the first place? Obviously, such a model as this PRR loco only appeals to the those dabblers in the hobby, not "real model railroaders"(tm), so why complain?
IDK---because he can?
To get a rise out of you mayhaps?
Did a pretty good job, I'd say---
CNJ831[ I can appreciate the manufacturers' position of a search for profit but it becomes yet another factor slowly choking out the real model railroaders of the hobby. CNJ831
[ I can appreciate the manufacturers' position of a search for profit but it becomes yet another factor slowly choking out the real model railroaders of the hobby.
Truth, nothing but the truth - that is very well describing what we see in good old Europe for some years now - locos in the price range of 500 - 1,000 $, limited runs only, and when you have finally saved up ´nuff cash, there gone!
One of the reason I gave up modeling European prototype...
... and certainly also the reason why all of the European makers had financial problems in the past.
andrechapelon Yes, it probably will look very much like that 4-12-2 articulated abomination MTH recently put out. That was a classic example of turning a scale model into a toy train. CNJ831 And why, pray tell, would this (the Q2) be a case of pandering to a collector of scale locomotives as you stated earlier? You're right, the MTH UP 9000 is an abomination. No collector in his right mind would want one of those, so how do collectors end up being targets of misplaced outrage? Andre
Yes, it probably will look very much like that 4-12-2 articulated abomination MTH recently put out. That was a classic example of turning a scale model into a toy train.
And why, pray tell, would this (the Q2) be a case of pandering to a collector of scale locomotives as you stated earlier?
You're right, the MTH UP 9000 is an abomination. No collector in his right mind would want one of those, so how do collectors end up being targets of misplaced outrage?
Andre
The HO collector of today is not synonymous in interests with the brass collectors of the past. The latter wanted absolute accuracy in their models and models of all sizes. The great majority of today's HO collectors just want big, unusual and generally impressive-looking items. That these engines also make noise and blow smoke like the Lionel toy trains of yore is to them a plus. The absurdity of MTH's 4-12-2, articulated and split at the steam pipes from the cylinders, is a perfect example of accuracy not mattering to modern collectors. Undoubtedly, the new BLI offering will have to go much the same totally unrealistic route to operate on 22" radii.
The prices also clearly put these models in the collector's arena, rather than as models for the general layout operator. The situation was not a significant problem in the past, when brass manufacturers were separate from those making locomotives for the actual model railroad hobbyist. But now it is the source of modelers' engines that are increasingly turning to the collector market and away from the general hobbyist for their customers. I can appreciate the manufacturers' position of a search for profit but it becomes yet another factor slowly choking out the real model railroaders of the hobby.
orsonroySnooze. Wake me for a USEFUL steam model.....
Snooze.
Wake me for a USEFUL steam model.....
What would that be, then?
If we don´t tell the industry, how should they know? As you all know, a good marketing person sells freezers to the Innuit...
Seriously, most leading European model railroading magazines conduct a poll each year, which is taken seriuos by the industry - it is not a "dream list", where you can enter just any crazy idea, but it is categorized and channelled "a little". It helps to reduce double developments, like we see from MTH and BLI.
Btw, Barry, Marklin´s famous Class 44 2-10-0 was "articulated", having a split, but linked frame - they still do that with their bigger steamers, so they can negotiate that infamous 14" radius!
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
Articulated? Knowing that some have already argued for this----I'll be watching for boiler overhangs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW--Loather: Moi, is sorta French--Canadian. And I'm being a satirical guy there----heeheehee
Here is where the collector market really gets funny
The thing to note here is the Novelty of the train. I know of at least 6 people up here who got all excited about the dang Q2 only because of the "Wild idea that it should do a 22" curve!!" And they propose to buy it!
Right mind? I'll say this. After working in the antiques field as long as I have, I do not estimate the ability of a collector to use that right mind. If they love what they see---out comes the wallet
well... not for me... i doubt the box would fit in this closet they call an apartment .
At least I was able to get my hands (hopefully) on a (very) few of the last-run locos out of Bowser....
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Does that finally mean, that we will always see MTH and BLI releasing the same loco into the market?
If my memory does not play tricks on me, the PRR Q2 was already available from MTH some time ago.
Edit:
- I goofed, it was in O scale!
Gosh, they only made 25 of this type and they operated no longer than 7 years (not past 1951). Powerful? Yes. Successful? Marginally.
Crandell-I like mine rare with mayo, catsup, and lettuse. Let me know how many I must consume for you to reach your lofty goal!
PS-At least it's not another 2-10-2!
selector I am curious how BLI will treat the blast pipes on their version of the UP 9000's.
I am curious how BLI will treat the blast pipes on their version of the UP 9000's.
I'm afraid to ask.
There's no doubt in my military mind, Mark. They'd sell one out of very four if they listed it for 26" or above, and even then it would have to be doubly articulated.
loathar, I have to admit that the description and specs is mighty intriguing. I am just afraid how many burgers I'm going to have to flip to get one.