John,I've been in the hobby "seriously" for 20 years. Earlier still, I grew up with an HO layout in my basement because my father has been in the hobby since just after WWII and switched over to HO scale around 1958-63. How many decades does one have to be in the hobby before one cannot be dismissed as some kind of newbie? What I'm saying here is that just because I disagree with you doesn't make me ignorant. You and I see the same things and come to different conclusions. That doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about, just that we disagree. You'd be a lot more pleasant to deal with if you realized that.
For example, you said, "It is not simply about owning and running miniature trains." Now there I strongly disagree. I believe that those who own and run minature trains are model railroaders because they are modeling a railroad. That belief doesn't make me some kind of know-nothing newbie.Now, if you wanted to change your labeling from "real model railroader" to "complete model railroader", then we would have no argument. A "complete model railroader" would do everything, from building models to running them on a well-done layout; basically everything you have defined above. Or you could call them "master model railroaders" to use the NMRA's term. Again, I'd have no argument. But when you start pointing fingers at people and telling them they aren't "real model railroaders" because they don't do what you want them to do, that just causes fights. Keeping today's date in mind, it would be like telling people they aren't "real Americans" just because they don't do things your way.
IRT model railroading on a simulator...of course it's not considered "classic model railroading". It's not old enough to be considered "classic". But building a world on the PC and making accurate computer models of equipment can take just as much time, effort and research as making a real-world model of it. IOW, yes, I consider TrainSim-folks to be model railroaders, too. To me, it doesn't make a whit of difference what medium a person uses to recreate railroads. Wood, metal, plastic, electrons...it makes no difference to me.
You then asked "Why then would it be if doing so on just totally unscenicked bare boards?" I'll tell you: because these "Plywood Pacifics" or whatever you want to call them are modeling a railroad...they just aren't doing it that well. For example, I have a good sized layout (25'x50') that I run Operations on. I don't have a lick of scenery on it other than the 30 building kits that I have built (most Walthers kits). I'd like to have scenery, but quite frankly I have next to no experience in making any. For the moment I'd rather spend my limited hobby dollar on buying & painting my NH models vs. buying hydrocal, screening, ballast, detail parts, etc. I'll be the first to acknowledge that my layout isn't very good because it's so bare, and that I am not any kind of "master model railroader" who thinks he's in the same category with the true masters of the craft. But to say I'm not a "real model railroader" because of it? I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.
It's funny you mention that some of the small steam power is too old. We've got a member on this forum who keeps complaining that they are too new and what a hassle it is to backdate them to actual turn-of-the-century appearance. BTW, what about the Spectrum 4-4-0 with the steel cab? It's superheated, at least.
I do agree that there is a lot of super-huge steam power coming out year after year, and that it is difficult to assemble an accurate steam roster that represents an entire RR's real roster. However, I question how many people are actually interested in modeling a complete loco roster, even in proportion. RR's had a lot of small steam to run the inumberable local freights and yards that RR's had back in the steam days, plus commuter trains if you were close to a big city. How many model railroaders are going to be able to model that many freight yards and that many local freights or commuter trains?
About the brass...okay, allow me to rephrase my point. How about the rise of BLI, et al., put the nail in the coffin of the brass importers? My point was that why would anyone buy a brass model when a better running, equally accurate, and much less expensive plastic model is available? Well, other than the true brass collectors.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
fwright Harkening back to the reasonably-priced brass era, both the articulateds and the 2-8-0s sold well. The AT&SF 2-8-0 was PFM's all time sales leader, according to Bill Ryan (founder of PFM). The Ma & Pa 2-8-0 had to be close behind based on the number I see on consignment shelves.
Harkening back to the reasonably-priced brass era, both the articulateds and the 2-8-0s sold well. The AT&SF 2-8-0 was PFM's all time sales leader, according to Bill Ryan (founder of PFM). The Ma & Pa 2-8-0 had to be close behind based on the number I see on consignment shelves.
In point of fact, Fred, in the glory days of brass small steam far, far out sold big articulated monsters. As you indicate, the PFM Santa Fe 2-8-0 was probably the best seller of all time, with the PFM UP 2-8-0 right behind. Each model sold between 3,000 and 5,000 units over the years! Likewise, I believe that the model with the single largest individual run may have been WMC's UP 4-4-2 Atlantic, with nearly 1600 units. Collectors back in the day were much more descriminating about choosing a range of models reflecting a given road's motive power. The "gee wiz" collectors are a more recent phenomenon.
CNJ831
I've tried to stay out of this one, saying it just doesn't apply to me. I'm not buying anything bigger than a 2-8-0, not at current prices and a hobby budget of $40/month.
The optimist in me likes to think that sales of these monster engines will encourage manufacturers to try smaller engines and earlier eras. But outside of Bachmann, I'm slowly being convinced that that will never happen. As has been pointed out, the average buyer of these monsters is buying it for the "cool" factor, - either display running or display period. It's not going to get used in an everyday train on the average layout. I would define that as collecting but many take umbrage at the label. Doesn't matter the reason why they are bought, the fact is the large locomotives sell.
I believe that there is sufficient market for both types of locomotives. Harkening back to the reasonably-priced brass era, both the articulateds and the 2-8-0s sold well. The AT&SF 2-8-0 was PFM's all time sales leader, according to Bill Ryan (founder of PFM). The Ma & Pa 2-8-0 had to be close behind based on the number I see on consignment shelves.
In an ideal world, the smaller engines - from 0-4-0s and 4-4-0s to 2-8-2s and 4-6-2s would dominate the market. It isn't and it won't happen because the hobby (however defined) is as much emotional as it is logical. Again, I can only hope that one day smaller and earlier steam will get some more manufacturing attention.
yours in having fun
Fred W
CNJ831 BRAKIE CNJ831,You seem to be looking in a very small box..Look outside of that box and you will see modelers has been buying what pleases them for years..How else can we explain a SD90MAC along side a 10 wheeler? The real reason behind that behavior isn't a collector..The reason is simple..This is a hobby that doesn't have any real disciplines or rules govern how a modeler should model.Model railroading has always been a free style hobby. Honest, Brakie, I don't have any blinders on. I'll freely admit that many newer hobbyists and even some of the oldtimers, firmly believe that our hobby is absolutely without rules, regulations, or disciplines to be followed. However, that's really not true. Just try submitting an article for publication written about a Plywood Pacific, a layout regularly running those SD90MACs along side 10-wheelers, or having towns and cities consisting of plopped-down, RTR structures and such and see if it's accepted by any of the magazines today. I can save everyone time by telling folks it simply won't happen. The best you're likely to get is a condescending smile and a rejection letter. To be acceptable, things in our hobby must conform to certain rules and standards. Simply put, the magazines understand that the hobby does have rules, even if the magazine editors don't wish to acknowledge this openly. In fact, the magazines themselves largely exist to show the reader the various "right" ways of doing things, like creating realistic scenery, accurate locomotives and detailed rolling stock. It's by no means an "anything is acceptable" hobby. CNJ831
BRAKIE CNJ831,You seem to be looking in a very small box..Look outside of that box and you will see modelers has been buying what pleases them for years..How else can we explain a SD90MAC along side a 10 wheeler? The real reason behind that behavior isn't a collector..The reason is simple..This is a hobby that doesn't have any real disciplines or rules govern how a modeler should model.Model railroading has always been a free style hobby.
CNJ831,You seem to be looking in a very small box..Look outside of that box and you will see modelers has been buying what pleases them for years..How else can we explain a SD90MAC along side a 10 wheeler? The real reason behind that behavior isn't a collector..The reason is simple..This is a hobby that doesn't have any real disciplines or rules govern how a modeler should model.Model railroading has always been a free style hobby.
Honest, Brakie, I don't have any blinders on.
I'll freely admit that many newer hobbyists and even some of the oldtimers, firmly believe that our hobby is absolutely without rules, regulations, or disciplines to be followed. However, that's really not true.
Just try submitting an article for publication written about a Plywood Pacific, a layout regularly running those SD90MACs along side 10-wheelers, or having towns and cities consisting of plopped-down, RTR structures and such and see if it's accepted by any of the magazines today. I can save everyone time by telling folks it simply won't happen. The best you're likely to get is a condescending smile and a rejection letter. To be acceptable, things in our hobby must conform to certain rules and standards. Simply put, the magazines understand that the hobby does have rules, even if the magazine editors don't wish to acknowledge this openly. In fact, the magazines themselves largely exist to show the reader the various "right" ways of doing things, like creating realistic scenery, accurate locomotives and detailed rolling stock. It's by no means an "anything is acceptable" hobby.
Well,unless the hobby has changed I still see it as it was years ago..A bunch of adults basically doing as they please when it comes to buying what they want.
Look more carefully at the next train show that has 2 or more modular displays and then asks yourself where is the discipline?
As far as writing a article..Get serious..Average joe modeler doesn't bother--just look at the Godzilla basement size layouts and above average modeling that gets publish vs. the more common average modeling..
No,magazines push agendas such as DCC,RTR,Sound,foam,scenery material etc from their advertisers by using a new "hobby great/expert ..Hard to believe? How many of the past hobby "leaders/experts" is still around or still in the hobby?
Gone are the articles on scratch building a locomotive,freight or passenger car.That died years ago.
So,its back to a free style hobby with no real rules or disciplines unless you care to follow the infomercials they call articles..
You do remember MR did a upgrade on the Carolina Central using Kato's Unitrack? There are other examples if you care to look starting in the 90s.
Look a tad closer at the pictures in MR..You may be surprise in what you see as far as RTR buildings,RTR cars etc.
Now,I suspect in the coming years there well be more prototypical modeling done by the younger modelers but,that day hasn't arrived yet.
Until that day arrives modelers will continue to free style or to use your favorite word "collect" what ever suits their fancy.The manufacturers knows this and we see this with every new announcement..Just look at the rash of short line locomotives on the older models..
And guys like us will be debating the different hobby styles..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
GTX765 If only the so called real model railroaders were involved in this hobby then most of the companies making this stuff would be gone by now.
If only the so called real model railroaders were involved in this hobby then most of the companies making this stuff would be gone by now.
Russell
This is precisely the collector factor. Since the collector does go on raw emotion---"Look at the neato train!!!"---the collector is a VERY LARGE component in this whole shmozzel!! I'm not so sure the discipline part would work either---or was that a joke? I'm not so sure either that it was always a free style hobby---maybe for some but not always free style either way----
BRAKIEHow about the thousands of club members that buys this locomotive for club use?
Are you sure there are or rather will be that large a number of members who will buy that large a locomotive for "club use?" It could just as well be a collector using the club as an exccuse too. Because it has been seen up here a few times----guy never used it at the club because he found out the turnouts were 6 and 8----and he needed 10.
BRAKIE Never forget the "cool,I want one" factor either..
Which already was mentioned----heeheehee
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I am a little slow on the switch this morning.
I learned about this item last night on the Broadway Webpage.
Im not going to pay the price and get one of these engines.I already have enough engines and prefer to spend the money on more important things.
In about a year when FDT starts to blow these things out for 200 bux call me and I might get a look.
Sadly I have no real interest in these monsters. BLI has done everything right and apparently made a engine the way I like to see them built.
The reason for my non interest is simple. There needs to be a market for smaller more common engines. Everyone is too much on one eastern road or one western road at the expense of so many other wonderful roads and thier engines.
To be blunt, if I see another engine being offered that is requiring 34 inches and number 10 switches to look and operate well and pull only 110 car trains that are longer than the house Im going to puke. And after the clean up, then get angry.
It's not so much the money. I retired about 40K in medical bills this year fixing broken stuff in life. 600 dollars is chump change. But better to have it directed at something useful than another monster that will be tossed onto the clearance and blowout rack in 18 months or less.
I feel that the hobby needs to accomodate those who are unemployed and possibly fighting to regain thier cash flow in a time of trouble and economic challenges. They are definately NOT going to spend 600 dollars on one engine. No way. Not in any meaningful numbers to count. They might get a IHC steamer and call it good enough first.
CNJ831 selector This is not going to be very welcome news for many of you, but BLI has the Q2 listed for delivery late this year! That was the 4-4-6-4 Duplex which was the most powerful non-articulated steamer every produced. First they announce that they will make the UP 9000 series 4-12-2 engines, and now this!? Yet another example that, as I've pointed out before, the collector faction in model railroading and not the actual modelers, is what today is driving the manufacturers. If built to true scale and as a non-articulated just as the real Q2 was, the model will likely require track radii well in excess of 48" to operate (maybe 60"!). How many HO layouts have you every seen, or even heard of, with such specs? Don't expect to see many small, quality steamers in the future, that's clearly not where the market is going. The future is in making shelf queens. How's about a Pennsy S-1 next? CNJ831
selector This is not going to be very welcome news for many of you, but BLI has the Q2 listed for delivery late this year! That was the 4-4-6-4 Duplex which was the most powerful non-articulated steamer every produced. First they announce that they will make the UP 9000 series 4-12-2 engines, and now this!?
This is not going to be very welcome news for many of you, but BLI has the Q2 listed for delivery late this year! That was the 4-4-6-4 Duplex which was the most powerful non-articulated steamer every produced. First they announce that they will make the UP 9000 series 4-12-2 engines, and now this!?
Yet another example that, as I've pointed out before, the collector faction in model railroading and not the actual modelers, is what today is driving the manufacturers. If built to true scale and as a non-articulated just as the real Q2 was, the model will likely require track radii well in excess of 48" to operate (maybe 60"!). How many HO layouts have you every seen, or even heard of, with such specs? Don't expect to see many small, quality steamers in the future, that's clearly not where the market is going. The future is in making shelf queens. How's about a Pennsy S-1 next?
Then the PRR fans will be jumping for joy over this Q2 for sure.
Now then..
I agree that Q2 will look mighty silly going round a 22" radius..However,that seems to be the normal curvature for none Godzilla size basement layouts but,again that's like looking at a large mural with tunnel vision..How about the thousands of club members that buys this locomotive for club use?
Never forget the "cool,I want one" factor either..
1948PRR My largest engines are the BLI J1 and T1. I have "just run" both at the same time in opposing directions. No problems on curves. Even at 15x 19 that J does look silly with only 10 or 12 cars. Any more and the train takes up 2 walls.
My largest engines are the BLI J1 and T1. I have "just run" both at the same time in opposing directions. No problems on curves.
Even at 15x 19 that J does look silly with only 10 or 12 cars. Any more and the train takes up 2 walls.
Sorry, I forgot you said this. You make a valid point, I think that it sums up a lot of the opposition's greivances with BLI. They don't have the space to run these engines in prototypical railroad. I am in the same situation, the difference is, I don't mind it. I run about 15 cars max. behind my J1, I love it, even though it makes no sense. Of course maybe later in life after saving these engines, I can run them in more space. Detailed engines and simple operation is what makes it for me. After talking to my brother some more, I began to change my mind, scenery will take a back seat for now.
We all have our dream layouts, but what I have right now is good enough for me. However, others obviously feel differently on here, and thats fine.
1948PRR One other problem no one has mentioned is that BLI and MTH are duplicating efforts. I'm also an N&W fan, but come on, a THIRD J class offering? I thought the MTH K4 was a mistake, but the J is just nuts. Didn't they also duplicate an NYC engine? If MTH would have made those H10 2-8-0's instead.......
One other problem no one has mentioned is that BLI and MTH are duplicating efforts. I'm also an N&W fan, but come on, a THIRD J class offering? I thought the MTH K4 was a mistake, but the J is just nuts. Didn't they also duplicate an NYC engine? If MTH would have made those H10 2-8-0's instead.......
Thats the thing though, you are right the broadway J's are beautiful engines and excellent runners, but these are relatively scarce now. Nearly all the hobby shops within 100 miles in my area don't have them anymore, much less the 'in service' type which MTH is now for the most part accurately representing. And the bachmann J just doesn't match up, the stripe's color is all wrong, extremely light model, lacking in powerful headlight, just not my thing. MTH releases the first die cast J in HO, along with operational class lights, which are revolutionary for HO, plus sound, the only problem is the DCS. Other than that, the thing looks like a winner, either another run of J's would be needed from BLI, possibly in Blue Line, or paragon 2, but from what I've heard, this seems unlikely . So MTH made the right choice in choosing this engine. Its popular, certainly not obscure, it fits most of our needs. Some people have complained about the length of the draw bar, but for operational purposes, I am beginning to think I can live with this. Its really not that big of a deal. Believe me, I've tried running some broadways with the tender hitch on the second or even first hole, going around even 30" radius track just doesn't cut it. In my opinion, sometimes compromises have to be made, at least for me. Just sharing my thoughts, you have a right to your opinion as well.
However, the problems I have with both BLI paragon2 and MTH is the smoke, but hey I can just turn it off if I don't like it. If BLI is worried about money, they shouldn't be. Modelers (and collectors like myself) find fake smoke to be terrible. I used the smoke fluid on lionels before, after a few days I hated it. Never used it again. What good is smoke for if all it does is leave this black tar residue on the track, and it made my allergies act up reall bad too. At my LHS they test ran for me a mth k4, showing me the smoke, the synchronized chuff sounded and looked really cool when the smoke came out at appropriate intervals, but within 30 seconds I started to cover my nose and we all laughed. The LHS owners hate HO engines that smoke, they think this new addition is a terrible idea, but apparently a few minority customers like these things.
That Broadway is copying MTH in regards to synchronized chuff and smoke for financial reasons/competition, hey cool I guess, but I don't think many HO people will want these features. First I thought it would be cool, now I hate it. No offence to anyone who feels differently. Paragon 2 featuring smoke units is very disappointing to me. And whats with all these other gimmicks that come with the new Paragon 2 diesels? Sound fully equipped barn sounds, industrial steam sounds, Come on, whats up with this? If this is the future of model railroading, then I better hurry up and collect any vintage stuff I can find.
I will stick with paragon, blueline, and the brass hybrids, I think at this point. The exception is of course the MTH class J with the set of Powhatan Arrow cars. Unless of course I can actually find the rivarossi set somewhere...(yeah right). Will Rapido expand their Norfolk passenger cars? Fine cars but what good are they without the set?
Oh, and by the way as to the MTH K4, I agree, for the price they want, that engine is indeed a mistake, again all these gimmicks (smoke, crew talk), why? Why not focus on correctly operating marker lamps and class lights, or why not at least put jewels in place of operating lights, the Roundhouse 2-6-0 mogul had the green jewels and looked maginificient for a very reasonable price. I love that train, but they are virtually all gone now. I missed my chance to buy it..
As far as the nyc duplicate MTH is doing, that was another poor choice in my opinion. The BLI hybrid looks ten times better.
I really think BLI should focuse on hybrids instead of paragon 2.
Sorry, long post.....again,
I think most of the frustration on this board should be directed towards the paragon 2 line (rather than the brass hybrid line) for releasing such lame sound effects (again...farm animals?), its like this modern diesel has sounds simulating cows living in it, (that really was my first impression), on such common modern diesels that are heinously overpriced. Its outrageous and I think all of us can agree, we shouldn't stand for it.
1948PRROne other problem no one has mentioned is that BLI and MTH are duplicating efforts. I'm also an N&W fan, but come on, a THIRD J class offering? I thought the MTH K4 was a mistake, but the J is just nuts. Didn't they also duplicate an NYC engine? If MTH would have made those H10 2-8-0's instead
The economics alone in this scenario is crazy but there it is---there have been previous threads on this topic that did discuss the duplication. My thinking is that this is another fine way of doing cut throat business----who makes a better 2-12-2 than who?----one that was articulated at the front hence causing a boiler overhang WWAAAAAAAAYY over here---or a rigid frame that has a potential for lateral overhang? The things you mentioned where the ones that got them into certain 'Legal' issues too.
And both made by the same manufacturer? As in, more lawsuits anyone?
Well, I think it's easy to see what my road of interest is. My comments on several aspects of this thread are:
I have indeed been "pricing" Q2 models on ebay for a few years, the cheapest and best deals seem to be WSM can motor units that sometimes go for about $350. If they run like my N2 2-10-2 ($200 not running with N6b caboose- repaired in 45 minutes), they won't need remotored. Of course, add the cost of Quantum/Tsunami/Loksound, and the labor, plus factor the single rail pickup, and larger radius required, not to mention painting, and that BLI price starts to look pretty good.
I would, however MUCH preffer to purchase three or four (or even five or six) H class 2-8-0 models of the same quality. I could actually USE those on my layout, for scheduled trains that spend time operating, not just as run through power.
I guess I'm placing myself in both collector AND modeller categories. Read my post and form your own opinion, though.
My current "layout" is 15x19. I think that quallifies as "medium". I have 24" minimum radii with "guestimate" easments on a doubletrack main with 2" centers, which become 2.5 inch on the curves, because I keep both tracks 24" R. my trackplan could be considered an operational display loop. It is continuous run, but set up for point to point.I have a 27 car capacity yard, a 20 car capacity yard, one 8 car capacity passing siding each direction, 7 industries (none in yards), and an interchange. I use a car card and waybill system. I also sometimes just run a train in each direction and watch.
Typical train length is about 6-9. Hmm, what engine would be a good choice...I know a 2-8-0!!
Lat year I took a BLI 2-8-2, and (gasp) cut off the trailing truck, and stuck on an MDC PRR boiler. Guess what? It came out pretty good. This year, I'm approaching it from the other end. I bought an ebay Gem H10, and I'm putting in a can motor and DCC/sound. So far it's a "wash" for what you end up with for the time and money. The Gem still looks better, the BLI still runs better. I figure I've got about $300 and 40 hours in each of them. After I get three or four done, BLI or MTH will probably release one. Honestly I think I would rather just pay the $300 and get it RTR. I have also built Bowser L1, K4 and B6 models. The L1 is going to get a BLI 2-8-2 running gear transplant (even after me hand assembling the valve gear). Nothing beats both rail pickup from the drivers!
My wife and I are looking to buy a new house in the near future. We are eyeing a foreclosure ;). One thing high on the list is the ability to add on to the existing garage (I have a classic car hobby, too), and build my dream 24x30 layout depicting Xenia Ohio and the Springfield Branch and the line to Dayton on the upper level, and "display loop" and staging representing Columbus and Cincinatti on the lower.
BTW I'm not made of money, either. I'm just extremely efficient with a knack for finding good deals, and have good budgeting skills.
If MTH can sell Centipedes, Passenger Sharks, H10's P5a(m)s, Little Joes, EF-3, etc to O scalers (colletors or whatever), they can probably sell those same models in HO, or we should at least let them try.
Eddie_waltersfirst, I'm reliably informed that this loco is rigid, with a lot of lateral motion. I'd assume the same will apply for the BLI 4-12-2 when it comes out.
There would then be enough laterality to the wheelsets to make for a good overhang(!). Hence---when laying track--that is, if you are doubling track--around a turn make sure you drop one curve more than the 2" standard from the top curve. The parallel would be about the same but wider distance apart--
That the hobby is divided in unquestioned, but I hope few of us in the overarching whole, called "The Hobby" won't let these arcane divisions stand in the way of cameraderie, mutual respect, and admiration for the interests and abilities that we all bring, and for what we all have in common...a healthy affection and interest for railroads and what they do.
I understand the differences as John lays them out, and I don't disagree. Even though I am very new to "The Hobby", I do see clearly that many long-time members are dedicated purists who strive to fabricate much of what they place in dioramas or on layouts. Their interest is in the measuring and shaping of raw materials to resemble carefully scaled and recognizable items that are remarkably like miniature versions of the larger prototype.
At the same time, there are the operators. These are guys who may dabble in the aforementionted, or maybe a lot of it, but they also like mimicking what railroads do on their scale layouts. It would be reasonable to suspect that some of them would be more interested in operations than in the scale modelling, the building, and would be pleased to have something close that comes ready to run.
Then there are guys like me who works like heck to erect something passably like a wooden trestle and calls that a milestone. But he is darned glad he doesn't have to cut and bend plastic and brass and fit motors and gears together to get a locomotive that he needs. Operations with that RTR whatsit is another thing altogether. Some of the non-craftsman types might do more operations that anything, and be happy with the Plywood Pacific.
I have left messages with BLI asking them to start helping those who are not Pennsy/NYC/UP/N&W/ATSF fans and who need Pacifics, Consolidations, Mastodons, and others from different roads. I would be happier knowing that they agreed and that at least a few of you disappointed fellows who could really use a break (and some nice RTR engines) would soon find relief.
-Crandell
A couple of points - first, I'm reliably informed that this loco is rigid, with a lot of lateral motion. I'd assume the same will apply for the BLI 4-12-2 when it comes out.
Second, from what I'm told, the cost of producing say, a 2-10-0 isn't too different to producing a 2-8-0 or 2-6-0, the problem being that the perception is that the loco should be proportionally cheaper. This has tended to make manufacturers nervous about making smaller locos. The same applies for "boring" "everyday" locos, versus the large locos that have been produced. The PCM I1sa has to an extent changed that perception - it was a loco needed in large enough quantities by enough PRR modelers that it sold out very quickly, and so I think BLI have been encouraged that more utilitarian locos can be produced.
Paul, not in any way wishing to insult you but much of your long post's expressed opinions reflect your relative short duration in the hobby and lack of historical perspective. This probably is in large part why you fail to see the situation clearly. I'll try to address some of your misstatements in a limited space below.
With regard to who is a "real" model railroader, let me point out that from its inception, the adult hobby of model railroading has universally been regarded as a craftsman's hobby. It is not simply about owning and running miniature trains. Neither is it about collecting items. That too is a different pursuit, which in model trains has generally been associated with brass models, or antique tinplate. Neither approach makes you a "model railroader". Likewise, simply running store-bought trains on a board decorated crudely with store-bought pre-assembled structures, trees and other details, is what kids did in the 40's and 50's and that wasn't regarded as model railroading either. Those guys were referred to as having a layout, not being model railroaders.
Today, unfortunately, there is a growing faction in the hobby that doesn't wish to recognize that skills and talent, learned or otherwise, are prerequisites in model railroading. That outlook split the hobby once already fifty years ago and it may do so again.
Concerning "operators", most I know have fully scenicked layouts, not Dave Barrow's track on bare boards and are thus in the craftsman category. Playing with trains on a computer is not regarded as any form of classic model railroading. Why then would it be if doing so on just totally unscenicked bare boards?
Let's look at the "available" small steam locomotives again. Yes, there is the Spectrum 2-8-0. It's fine, as are the two smaller BLI engines. But the Spectrum 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 , plus the Roundhouse 4-4-0, 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 , are examples of turn of the last century designs, not representative of common steam motive power just before and during the transition era, no matter what claims are made. The Horizon steam engines never were all that good and most experienced modelers I know avoid them. IHC, while often fairly good runners, are highly inaccurate.
Now compare that to the steady run of monster, astronomically priced, new examples which appear at least twice a year now. Most are one road specific and not believably adaptable to any others. It's quite difficult to assemble a reasonable roster of modest, late-steam-era, engines today and very few of the affordable ones are suitable as kitbash fodder.
With regard to the decline of brass, it had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the rise of BLI, or any other modern plastic loco manufacturer. The decline of brass began back in the mid 1980's as prices outstripped the ability of the average hobbyist to pay. By the time BLI et al. came on the scene, the interest in brass had dwindled to a tiny niche element in the hobby.
GTX765,I totally agree with your post. I tend to believe in a very wide interpretation of what makes someone a model railroader. An armchair model railroader is still a model railroader in my book. The usual reply to that from the other side is that just because you read a magazine about NASA doesn't make you an astronaut. My reply to that would be that model railroading is not a profession, it's a hobby, and it's up to each individual to determine how much time or money one spends on his or her hobby.
At any rate, you have to realize one important thing... This hobby is no different from any other. There are elitists in every human endeavour. Guns, cars, knitting, cameras, computers, gardening, doll houses, basket weaving, quilting, model rocketry, R/C, etc. Why should model railroading be any different? We just have to recognize elitists when we encounter them, and either take their "advice" or ignore it as we feel like it. The one thing you can't do is let it bother you.
GTX765 Did not realize the people playing with trains had an Elitist or snobby way about them. The more i read this forum the more i realize what the real problem is.......... I read remarks like this over and over on this forum and its getting old.
I read remarks like this over and over on this forum and its getting old.
For your health, and perhaps to the chagrin of those holding opinions you disagree with, it is best to ignore them or at least act like you're not annoyed.
Mark
twhite I do have a passing track on a curve on my eastbound main. The inside radius is 34" the outside radius is 36". Even with those fairly generous radii, I do not DARE run one of my articulateds on the inside track to bypass a train on the outside. It all has to be done the opposite, with a NON-ARTCIULATED loco on the inside track, and even then I do it very slowly with my fingers crossed, LOL!
I do have a passing track on a curve on my eastbound main. The inside radius is 34" the outside radius is 36". Even with those fairly generous radii, I do not DARE run one of my articulateds on the inside track to bypass a train on the outside. It all has to be done the opposite, with a NON-ARTCIULATED loco on the inside track, and even then I do it very slowly with my fingers crossed, LOL!
It is so easy to fall into the trap of the arbitrary 2-inch-between-tracks distance (for HO). While usually sufficient for straight track, the sharper the curves and longer the equipment (and particularly articulated locomotives), the greater the distance required. Unfortunately, virtually all published plans use the arbitrary 2-inch distance. Even generously broad curves in the 30 to 40 inch radius would be helped with an additional quarter inch or so spacing. Before laying out your track, check the NMRA recommended practices. This will often mean reducing the inside track's radius somewhat as the outside track is usually at the maximum that will fit.
In consolation, Tom, even prototype railroads found the inadequacies of their physical plants limited operations of some of their equipment. Just hope your dispatcher and operators are intimately familiar with your railroad's peculiarities/limitations.
Hmmm
"But "real Operators" are, as you have said in the past, not necessarily "real model railroaders" because they may or may not have scenery and may or may not have ever built a kit in their entire lives."
BLI and MTH make large steam because people buy them. I like large steam and I like mikados and the rest. I dont model Pensy, I live in Omaha and know nothing of Pensy. I dont like the labels people use around here. Either you are a model railroader or your not. Either you are involved in the hobby or not. I understand the models may not be prototypical but this is a hobby not a museum artifact society.
John (CNJ),The problem is that I'm pretty sure you have said that those who buy just RTR models are not "real model railroaders", but mere dabblers in the hobby. Someone who simply buys stuff and runs it on their layout is really a collector, not a modeler. Right?
So why would a "real model railroader" care about any RTR model? If they don't like what BLI is offering, "real model railroaders" will simply make their own because they are craftsmen who enjoy making their own steam engines from scratch.
I would agree that BLI's production of large locos over smaller locos is "choking out the real Operators of the hobby" in that it's tough to do realistic Operations with only super large steam locos. But "real Operators" are, as you have said in the past, not necessarily "real model railroaders" because they may or may not have scenery and may or may not have ever built a kit in their entire lives.
FYI, Horizon still has 5 new 2-8-0's and 1 new 2-6-0 in their Roundhouse line for $139.98. They also have a bunch of Spectrum small steamers in stock (2-8-0's w/ sound for $318, 2-10-0's w/ sound for $335, 4-6-0's w/ sound for $345, and 4-4-0's w/ sound for $425), plus they still have plenty of BLI Light Mikes in Blue Line for sale. Spectrum has a new run of 0-6-0T's coming in the Fall for $125 ea., Walthers still has some Spectrum MA&PA 4-6-0's for $210 and plenty of modern 4-4-0's at $290 (on sale for $199.98 or $425 w/ sound). They also have a WM 2-8-0 for $190 and plenty of 4-6-0's for $345 (w/ sound).
I wouldn't say all these are currently "in production", but then what is? Since just about everyone has gone to batch production, not much is going to be "in production" at any one time. However, these loco models are still available brand new in the box from the two biggest distributers (or soon will be). I call that "good enough", don't you?
As for the brass industry, you always seem to forget a critical change in the hobby, and that would be the rise of the very company we're talking about, BLI. For example, brass used to be the only medium to get NH I-5's outside of doing it yourself, and now BLI is getting better versions to market at a even cheaper price than the old brass models (BLI I-5's sold new at $359, and I paid $400 for my NJ/CB I-5 in 1996...unpainted). Not only are they more accurate models with even better detail, they run and pull a heckuva lot better than any brass model out of the box (I just ran my BLI I-5 with 10 passenger cars up a 3% grade on a 40" radius curve last night), and they have DCC and sound to boot.
In a limited way, one can say brass priced itself out of the market...but that's only because the plastic manufacturers like BLI, P2K, and Spectrum started taking the legs out from under the brass importers by building a better product at much lower prices. Or, IOW, the market for good steam models dropped from the $1000-level of brass to the $500-level (or less) of BLI, and brass just hasn't been able to compete on price.
Oh, and BTW, you didn't use the term "actual model railroaders" in your earlier post, you said "real model railroaders". There is a difference, as you have pointed out many times.
In regards to the NHRHTA, we are in rare agreement about modelers in historical societies. I was positively shocked to learn that I am considered a radical rivet counter who dared complain about $1500 brass R-3a models that had incorrect tender lettering. I was appalled to realize that I was more strict in my reviews about new NH products than the NHRHTA was. I mean, historical societies are supposed to be hardcore river counters, and yet I got a lot of flack from NHRHTA members for saying something wasn't done right. But heaven help me if I should call the mainline to Boston in Massachusetts the "Shore Line" when they are adamant that the Shore Line only refers to the ancient Shore Line Division that was East of New Haven and West of Rhode Island. Sigh.Have a happy 4th, John. BTW, are you going to be at the NMRA National show? Our club's on a layout tour on the 8th, and most of us are planning to go to the show on Friday the 10th.
Sir Madog In my opinion, today´s market is much better catered for. Athearn, Atlas, Walthers Proto (ex LifeLike) are light years ahead of the quality they used to make, and BLI, MTH turn out well-engineered locos, even if we may not agree to the choice of prototype. The USRA range is pretty much covered and there is still the option to do a little "bashing" to adapt the loco to the road of our choice. We will have to live with the fact that MTH and BLI will release those spectacular locos for collectors. Should not be a problem, if other makers start to fill the gap for those bread and butter workhorses we´d like to see!
In my opinion, today´s market is much better catered for. Athearn, Atlas, Walthers Proto (ex LifeLike) are light years ahead of the quality they used to make, and BLI, MTH turn out well-engineered locos, even if we may not agree to the choice of prototype. The USRA range is pretty much covered and there is still the option to do a little "bashing" to adapt the loco to the road of our choice.
We will have to live with the fact that MTH and BLI will release those spectacular locos for collectors. Should not be a problem, if other makers start to fill the gap for those bread and butter workhorses we´d like to see!
Exactly, excellent post.
Yesterday, I took the time to re-read some of my MR cpoies from the 1970´s. I took special interest in the ads I saw. Here is my resume:
Most of the R-T-R stuff offered from the likes of AHM, Atlas, Athearn, LifeLike, Mantua et al. was fairly crude and toy-like, but cheap. Rivarossi in Italy seemed to be the only maker of "better" locos. There was a lot of brass around, with seemingly more importers than there are today. "Plastic" locos were in the range of $ 20 - 30 , brass usually exceeding the $ 100 . Doesn´t that translate into $ 200 - 300 and $ 1,000 + of today?
Most of the steam locos available were USRA derivatives in many, not always correct, guises. Ah, well, and there was Bowser...
I'm thrilled that BLI is releasing the Q2, I hope the S1 is next. I'm a collector, I would gladly run these expensive, beautiful trains on any layout, mine being relatively small. As someone mentioned earlier, apparently the distinction between a modeler and a collector is that the latter cares about the vintage retro looking engines more than making a layout exceptionally prototypical, I would have to agree. Remember only about 10-15 years ago when locos like the prr j1 or t1 were practically impossible to find by any manufacturer? I recall walking into my LHS with my dad when I was a kid then, and all they had were small diesels lacking in detail, with the old devil headlight, or whatever it was called. The kind of f3 diesels that had no windshields and a shiny bulb glaring out the hollow shell. Again, nothing wrong with these, my dad bought me one for $40 dollars back then and I loved it as a kid. Not even saying these are bad pieces for adult model railroaders, but there were no higher end engines back then if I remember correctly. The only quality steams were brass, but all were unpainted, and extremely expensive. Not to mention no sound.
I feel that BLI is definately moving in the right direction with this, just my opinion. I couldn't be happier about hearing this news today. This company is really what pulled me back into the hobby. The first time I held a BLI paragon C&O T1 2-10-4 in my hands, I can't even describe the feeling, and that whistle! I couldn't believe that a company was finally releasing such excellent collector pieces in such a small scale. It was like holding a high end lionel steam engine in my hands for at least 1/3 the price, and not only that, it actually ran on two rail track, something that I always wanted to experience. An absolutely beautiful piece of machinery.
I feel that companies like athearn among others have always provided the average modeler with a decent selection of other more 'standard' products to run on more realistic layouts, varying from both extremely accessible to somewhat expensive, whereas BLI has become the company collectors (even amateur ones) like myself turn to. BLI makes models that are practically museum quality for HO. If they weren't around, who else would do this? And growing up around Pennsylvania, this is definately my company, although its good to know they provide other lines as well for those who live in other areas. But a company whose preference is for Pennsy, I can't complain, infact I encourage it. But BLI is definately also about variety. What other company makes such beautiful Norfolk and Western steamers? Or such amazing zephyr streamliners?
Not trying to offend any person who disagrees, just wanted to get my voice out there too. There are obviously a lot of other collectors like myself who feel the same way, people like us, keep them in business, we the collectors share the same interests as BLI. Its a win win situation. They make what they like, which also happens to be what we like. I am very grateful that BLI listens to people like us, I think the name of the company speaks for itself. The very term "broadway limited" at the very least, translates to retro streamliners that roamed the rails of the PRR of the 40's and 50s, among other glorious behemoths, be they passenger or freight. Point being that Broadway Limited imports is obviously the company for collectors who love the PRR, among other railroads such as the N&W, C&O. And give them time, its entirely possible they will release smaller engines in the same amazing detail. I would love a BLI 2-8-0 (although the Bachmman spectrum has already made the consolidation and other small engines). Who knows, maybe when they make enough large archaic turbines or duplex engines, even the collectors themselves will push BLI into making small detailed pieces such as switchers, or shays, although again, bachmann spectrum makes excellent shays in HO and On30. Precision Craft Models already released the galloping goose some time ago, correct?
Well, off my soap box, kinda long post, sorry. BLI pennsy's mean a lot to me though.
Even if these were done in N scale this would be my concern. Outside of the collector with the "But it looks good!!" thing going, the mainlines' trackage would have to be designed in such a manner as to mitigate the odd (non)articulations that these large locomotives bring to any layout to begin with. The question then is who had thought of these aspects? And if not, why not? Wouldn't these belong to the slate of design issues that one uses to bring forth good product?
Then my own frigging around trying out this cnc milling machine that a friend of mine and I picked up got me into thinking more about these odd ducks that are showing up. ACCH!! More questions-----
Barry, it is quite remarkable. On my 24" minimums, the "inner hang" along the midpoint of the boiler is an eye-opener, something like 3/4" from the inside rail.. Oddly, the overhang outboard of curves is not a problem with this engine. In fact, any surgery that I have done since inserting all my portals was when I began to run my Rivarossi Allegheny. That thing hangs wwaaaaaayyy out there. The top rear cab corner caught on one portal, and the large engineer's injector overflow scraped the ground goop in a dozen places where nothing else seemed to come close. More surgery.
Barry:
Maybe not quite as terrifying, but I have non-parallel double track on my mainline (kinda/sorta like SP's route between Rocklin and Colfax) but on one section, I do have a passing track on a curve on my eastbound main. The inside radius is 34" the outside radius is 36". Even with those fairly generous radii, I do not DARE run one of my articulateds on the inside track to bypass a train on the outside. It all has to be done the opposite, with a NON-ARTCIULATED loco on the inside track, and even then I do it very slowly with my fingers crossed, LOL!
I know for sure I couldn't do it with a non-articulated T-1 and an S-2, either way. Even on those radii.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Crandell: ---How far out did the T1 come out at the side? If it is anything like what these template pieces gave me I'd be definitely thinking 'Static Display' only.
If one examines how close one lays a double main in parallel on an 22"--or any radii, for that matter-- consider the issue that would ensue if you run the Q2 and any other lokie in opposite directions---meet on the straights and NOT on any curve---
selector... BLI would take a risk and produce a Harriman Pacific for Ray Breyer and others who would love to get their mitts on one. -Crandell
... BLI would take a risk and produce a Harriman Pacific for Ray Breyer and others who would love to get their mitts on one.