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Cost of MR Hobby too Expensive !?!? Locked

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Sunday, March 15, 2009 11:36 PM

citylimits

I have no clue who or what this POD is you mention in your messages - can you give me a clue!

Check PM's

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Sunday, March 15, 2009 11:50 PM

andrechapelon
 
Why does everyone try to complicate things that are really pretty straight-forward? It's not all that hard to understand. I paid $700 for a plane ticket to New Zealand in 1969. That's $4027 in today's dollars. If I book by Friday, I can get a flight to Auckland on Qantas for $299 each way. By the time you add in all the taxes, that ticket (round trip) will cost me $736 in TODAY's dollars. That $736 equates to $128 in 1969 dollars. That is DIRT CHEAP in comparison. The fact that someone "perceives" that today's $736 is expensive and that Qantas is gouging the poor passenger is irrelevant. You're getting essentially the same service at a $578 discount (an 82% saving when expressed in 1969 dollars). And that's including the taxes and fees that didn't exist 40 years ago.  The fact that someone can't afford to fly to New Zealand now or thinks the ticket price is too high has nothing to do with the relative cost of flying now vs. the cost of flying 40 years ago. It's cheaper now.
 

I'm thinking that there is a point in this in that there is a perception out there that this hobby is expensive. Where this perception came from is irrelevant. It is how do we address this perception. We did not use inflation calculations until the 90's in most cases--which is ironic considering that during the 80's we saw inflation up here in the upper 'teens/lower twenties percentile range and seen interest rates pushing 20% or more. With money getting tighter in a lot of homes --and with said homes Eloc's going underwater as some of the Case/Schiller studies are saying--and credit lines going out the window, people are just starting to see what happened for the last number of years. It will be time to educate people on how to do hobbies by not mangling what is left of their credit/cash accounts.

And yes,City Limits --my fleamarket finds may be fortuitous--but that becomes part of one's repertoir of hunting/gathering skills. I've only done this type of thing for a few decades---after all---Smile,Wink, & Grin

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...

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Posted by citylimits on Monday, March 16, 2009 1:52 AM

andrechapelon
I was trying to say that price comparisons between what was paid for a packet of Cal-Scale detail parts in 1960 (or any other applicable item of model railway interest) bares little or no relevance to the price paid today for the same item or perhaps if you prefer; a locomotive. Other than perhaps an exercise driven by a person interest to find this out, a direct comparison is not useful at all in pondering a reasonable outcome to the OP's original proposition.
 
Hogwash. The only question that needs answering is whether or not the cost of the hobby RELATIVE to the general cost of living in the past is higher, lower or unchanged. Some things are more expensive and some less. Overall, hobby items are no more expensive than they historically have been. HOWEVER, there is so much more available now than before that we're all like kids in a candy store with a buck to spend on candy. Or, to make the analogy clear, it's as if the candy store back then was a hole in the wall shop, and we're in the midst of a Wal-Mart which sells nothing but candy and we only have the same amount of money to spend on an inflation adjusted basis.
 
You may have noticed in my message that I suggested that the over simplification of adjusted for inflation prices and CPI stats is that we are not, in the speak of busy business executives, operating on a level playing field. There are numerous other factors in existence that affect price comparisons and the perception of what is highly priced and what is not. I gave a few examples of these earlier and they are  germane to this discussion.
 
Why does everyone try to complicate things that are really pretty straight-forward? It's not all that hard to understand. I paid $700 for a plane ticket to New Zealand in 1969. That's $4027 in today's dollars. If I book by Friday, I can get a flight to Auckland on Qantas for $299 each way. By the time you add in all the taxes, that ticket (round trip) will cost me $736 in TODAY's dollars. That $736 equates to $128 in 1969 dollars. That is DIRT CHEAP in comparison. The fact that someone "perceives" that today's $736 is expensive and that Qantas is gouging the poor passenger is irrelevant. You're getting essentially the same service at a $578 discount (an 82% saving when expressed in 1969 dollars). And that's including the taxes and fees that didn't exist 40 years ago.  The fact that someone can't afford to fly to New Zealand now or thinks the ticket price is too high has nothing to do with the relative cost of flying now vs. the cost of flying 40 years ago. It's cheaper now.
 
Andre
 
 
 
 

Hogwash you say! 
 
Well, I don't understand why you can't see that price comparisons - adjusted for inflation, bare no relevance to the question posed by the OP, that being, is this hobby too expensive. I say that the question is subjective and depends on whether you can afford to pay the asking price of what is currently available now or if value can be seen in the prices being asked. So, too expensive for who?
If I am faced with paying real-time prices and for what ever reason I don't have the money to do so, then the items that interest me are too expensive for me to buy even if the result of your inflation adjusted calculations makes them less expensive than they were in 1969 or when ever.
I also don't understand why you would unnecessarily complicate this question by introducing a fat red herring into the argument. I have no problem at all with the figures you produce as a statement of fact, but are they relevant within the context of the Original Post.
 
I have no trouble understanding the point you are making, it's not at all difficult to follow a simple argument regardless of how many times it's repeated. What is difficult to understand is your insistence that your argument does in anyway address the question posed by the OP.
You are arguing along a line as if the question asked by the OP was, is the cost of our hobby more expensive than it was for modelers in the past. Is that what you see as being asked by the OP - because it's not.
 
I don't give a flying fig if the cost of your airfare to New Zealand paid by you in 1969 is relatively more expensive then than the airfare paid today to cover the same journey. Conditions existing in the airline industry at that time were vastly different than they are today - in 1969 it was still considered by many to be a luxury to travel by air. Now international air travel is routine and with specials offered by many airlines - $1.00 ( special conditions apply, needless to say) to fly between Auckland and Christchurch by Virgin Blue, air travel has never been cheaper. Once again though, your reasoning is flawed if you believe that there is within the context of the OP's original proposition a need for this comparison. That was then and this is now. I also can't understand why you can not see that there are many different factors that have a baring on price, enough so that comparing prices from widely different generations are pointless and are not helpful in answering what the OP wanted to discuss. Direct comparisons of this type are of limited interest if they are not germane to the subject of the original posting.
 
I shouldn't have to point out the obvious to you, but there is nowhere stated or implied in any thing I have written in this post that I believe we are the victims of price gouging by QANTAS or anybody else in the business community servicing model railroaders - where did you get that from, it's a little creative, I do believe. 
 
Anyway, I certainly don't want to be the cause of this post being locked or removed by the moderators. So I will not engage with you any further on this topic.
 
We will have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid.
 
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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, March 16, 2009 8:21 AM

Bruce,

Based on your view, there is no answer to the OP's question.

The model railroad industry is not responsible for how much disposable income he, you or anyone else has or does not have. They are by no means obligated to lower their prices because someone thinks they are too high. As I and others have suggested, the market will control that.

They are only responsible for making a market competitive product within the current costs of production.

I think we have established that they are doing so.

Nobody "owes" anyone access to this hobby, or even food and shelter in my world view.

Make more money or don't buy as many trains. And in either event, stop complaining about it.

"The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings, the universal blessing of socialism is the equal distrabution of the misery" - Wiston Churchill

Sheldon

 

 

    

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Posted by fwright on Monday, March 16, 2009 8:29 AM

jwhitten

Is it just me or what? (I'm looking for some old-timer perspective here...)

The cost of this hobby just seems astronomically staggering !

It just seems like every single manufacturer is out to put their kids through college on a single hopper car or bag of ground foam.

I'm not complaining that things cost money, people gotta eat-- but it seems pretty ridiculous. And it hasn't always been this way. For example, sometimes when I buy stuff from that big online yard sale place, it'll show up with the original price tags still on the box. For example, I just got through buying a bunch of Shinohara turnouts recently. #6's LH&HR, among others, new old stock... I thought I was getting a deal at $12 bucks each. I see them advertised elsewhere online for $20+ and up. So they get here and I was looking through them and then notice the _original_ price... $1.29, from a _DRUG STORE_ no less !

I understand a lot of things about buying and selling, particularly that things are worth whatever people will pay for them. So I know that's the real answer here-- people have bucks to spend and are willing to spend them even at these prices.

I'm just saying.

(Can I get an amen :)

No, you can't get an amen from me.  You said you were looking for some old-timer perspective here.  I may not be an old-timer, but I'll give my perspective.

First, on the new old stock turnouts.  Usually, when store/shops selling model railroad equipment drop the model railroading aspect or go out of business completely, their remaining stock is put up for sale.  Usually, another LHS buys up the stock - and I'm guessing here - for around the 1st shop's cost or a little less.  It behooves the second shop to buy this stock, both for the potential resale, and to prevent the market from being flooded with fire-sale prices.  I suspect the turnouts were fire sale priced before being sold to the next dealer - I sure don't remember Shinohara turnouts ever retailing for $1.29.

The normal practice is to mark up the just-bought new old stock to a price point somewhat nearer market value to relect the buying and carrying costs of the inventory.  I see examples of this all the time with Campbell and other NOS structure kits, and with Roundhouse kits in particular.  It helps the price if the item is rather difficult to obtain as new production these days (same as on eBay).  If your turnouts had been left at $1.29, I doubt the dealer buying them would have made a profit, and they probably would not have still been there for you to buy.  You still got a good deal from your point of view, and the person buying the stock turned a profit for his efforts.  I just don't see the problem here.

As for putting your or my kids through college on profits from manufacturing model railroad goods - if it was so easy, everybody would be doing it.  But don't believe me.  You have my strongest encouragement to become a model railroad manufacturer.  Why don't we make your first item easy - a decently detailed, properly scaled 15T or 18T Class A Climax (known as a "Black Satchel" by some of our Southern logging friends).  I'll even supply a few pictures.  I chose the Climax because of the lack of visible pistons and drive gear - a small diesel drive will work pretty well.  Make it cute enough, and run decently (on a 15" radius), and you will outsell the Roundhouse caricature.  I'll pay you $200 for it in kit or RTR (kit preferred).  And if you integrate DCC and sound - including the 2 speed Climax transmission - I'll give $350 for it.  If you show me a good pre-production model and evidence of actual production, I'll give you the money as an advance deposit.  Only catch - most of the model has to be made of metal to get enough weight for decent pulling power.  You can use horizontal T or vertical boiler - your choice.  Or expand your market by producing both - in both narrow and standard gauge.

I guess my willingness to pay that kind of money marks me as one who has bucks.  If $40/month for a hobby budget qualifies me as a big spender, so be it.  I am willing to pay a year's worth of hobby funds for one locomotive because I don't collect.  With a layout room size of 7.5 ft by 10 ft, I only need 2-3 standard gauge locos, and the same for the narrow gauge.  I can't be bothered buying locomotives or cars to sit in boxes.  30 cars for both gauges is probably more than enough.  Even if I had my ultimate space (24 ft by 20 ft), double the rolling stock and locomotives is more than I would want/need.

Which leads me back to costs of the hobby.  Costs have sky-rocketed because expectations have sky-rocketed.  The Roundhouse Climax no longer cuts it for me - it's too far away from the prototype.  A 4x8 Plywood Pacific can really only handle 2 locomotives.  Back when locomotives had to be built from kits, that was a reasonable expectation.  Same with track - the rule of thumb was no more than 20 turnouts for a one man layout because of construction and maintenance time.  But RTR (at a price) allows one to build a much bigger, much more complex, and much more complete layout in a reasonable amount of time - again for a price.  As a result, expectations for the average layout have been driven way higher, and so has the price.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

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Posted by BRAKIE on Monday, March 16, 2009 8:50 AM

Guys,Think of this...

 Build a small or moderate room size size layout,buy 1 or 2 locomotive and say 60 cars..

 

Here you have a short line..Now divide your cars into 3 groups of 20 cars each..Now you can rotate the cars you use..

 Figure up the cost for the basics and you will see the hobby isn't all the expensive.

 The total adds up when we start buying more locomotives and cars then we really need,DCC,Sound and that age old trap of keeping up with other modelers..

 Do you really need that Atlas GP40-2 because Johnny has one? Do you really need that $50.00 automax or are you buying it because they look "cool"?

 Do you really need that 2-10-4 even tho' the largest curve on your layout is 22"?

 Ah,the traps we fall into..

And yes brothers and sisters that WE includes yours truely.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


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Posted by blownout cylinder on Monday, March 16, 2009 9:08 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Make more money or don't buy as many trains. And in either event, stop complaining about it.

"The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings, the universal blessing of socialism is the equal distrabution of the misery" - Wiston Churchill

Sheldon, another comment to yours from Winston Churchill was Lenin's-" the way to destroy the bourgiousie is through taxes and inflation"--or summat.

 And Brakie's point works well here--limit the purchases to what you are modeling. A shortline--in my case--can get up to 15 lokes(although in my case the discovery of several lokes in a fleamarket gave me boodles more-- So I'm already finished with the HEAVY PURCHASES. Gee--I just checked --I'm up to 65 lokes---OOOPPS and I spent under $1000cdn for all that---The rolling stock needs no more as I got over 120 hoppers, 90 boxcars, 23 flatcars---and a mixed bag of odd load gondolas and such----got in 2 seperate places for about $300cdn.

The thing I've noticed more recently is that where I'm finding my deals--in fleamarkets and in second hand/consignment shops. A few people also told me --and I've seen this too--that a lot more stuff has shown up on web sites like Kijiji. So what do we make of this? ---HMM

 

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, March 16, 2009 9:20 AM

Larry,

For many you are so right, they have never decided what they really want or set specific modeling  goals. And that is fine, it is after all just a hobby. I for one have taken a different route. After spending my teenage years in the hobby, as member of a great club where I learned a lot, I then decided what I really wanted to accomplish with model trains.

To that end, I don't "collect" or buy anything just to "have" it, or because it was "famous". I have a theme and plan for my layout and everything purchased is a piece to that puzzle.

So I don't have a glass case containing:

UP Big Boy, GG1, GS4, N&W J, PRR K4, etc, etc. - never owned any of these.

I do have 8 Spectrum 2-8-0's, 6 P2K GP7's, 8 P2K FA1's, 5 Spectrum 4-8-2H's, 2 P2K 2-8-8-2's, 3 Spectrum 2-6-6-2's, 6 or 7 sets of EMD F3's and F7's of various brands, etc, etc, because it makes a believable roster for my RR.

I still buy Athearn rolling stock and upgrade it some, rather than think every car in a 600 car fleet needs to be a $30.00 piece from Kadee or Intermountain or whoever.

My layout is large, 800 sq ft room, but not extremely complex, I have lots of locos and cars, none are $1500 pieces of brass. We all make choices based on our resources.

I don't use DCC because I don't see it as a good value for ME. I don't use sound because it sounds tinny and costs too much - for ME.

But I don't think anything in the hobby is over priced. Some things may be more than I am willing to pay for that item, but so is a BMW.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, March 16, 2009 9:26 AM

blownout cylinder

Sheldon, another comment to yours from Winston Churchill was Lenin's-" the way to destroy the bourgiousie is through taxes and inflation"--or summat.

Barry,

How true, but we should leave it at that before we upset someone or get too far a field of the topic.

As for buying trains, I am a bargin hunter, and seldom pay anything near top dollar for the "big" stuff.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Autobus Prime on Monday, March 16, 2009 9:32 AM

fwright

Costs have sky-rocketed because expectations have sky-rocketed.  The Roundhouse Climax no longer cuts it for me - it's too far away from the prototype.  A 4x8 Plywood Pacific can really only handle 2 locomotives.  Back when locomotives had to be built from kits, that was a reasonable expectation.  Same with track - the rule of thumb was no more than 20 turnouts for a one man layout because of construction and maintenance time.  But RTR (at a price) allows one to build a much bigger, much more complex, and much more complete layout in a reasonable amount of time - again for a price.  As a result, expectations for the average layout have been driven way higher, and so has the price.

fw:

This is a good point.  I think there is an additional factor at work.  The heavily staging-yard dependent model railroads that got the most attention for a while tend to be equipment-hungry, and a lot of that sits idle on staging tracks, unless trains are reused.  This makes things more expensive.  Reusing trains is a good way around this, I think.  Railroads tend to have a lot of similar trains, usually going in one direction.  How different do stack trains or coal drags look, really? 

Moderation is a good thing.  Maybe we can plunk down RTR quickly enough to build a GD Line in a few years, or buy one ready-made, but should we?  Those model railroads take a crew to run, and most of us usually operate solo, or maybe with a friend or two.  No sense having more than we can enjoy.  Too much, and it's not a hobby, but a job. 

Moderation has always been needed, I think, even in earlier years.  Atlas track has been around for more than fifty years, and don't forget Tru-Scale, which was a previous generation's Unitrack.  Even before the war, you had RTR equipment: Lionel!  Hi-rail was a large part of model railroading back then, and the hi-railers were more bent on operation than collection back then.  It's a shame that hi-rail got so little respect from the "scale" mags of the time.  Sometimes it seems like Louis H. Hertz was the only one willing to give hi-railers their due.  At any rate, it was completely possible, even back then, to get "completely carried away...away...away".

 

 

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Monday, March 16, 2009 9:36 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

As for buying trains, I am a bargin hunter, and seldom pay anything near top dollar for the "big" stuff.

That's why I love my second hand/consignment and now fleamarket finds--found all manner of things there--including a 2-8-8-2 Y3 from Walthers Heritage series with DCC/sound for under $60--and the dang things works a charm--heeheeheeTongue---and just to add to my fun I fell over a box of 4 used--very little by the look of things--KATO RDC2's. All for a ridiculous price--you think I'm going to pass this up? My shortline has a successful passenger/commuter rail service here!!Tongue

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by cwclark on Monday, March 16, 2009 9:45 AM

For years, I had to scrape up just enough money to purchase a lot of the poorest quality stuff on the market to keep a small MRR operating. It's always been an expensive hobby even when i started modeling in 1977 a family, house, car and utility payments added to the financial burden. Then one day:

1. The kids left home.

2. the mortgage was paid off.

3. My wife got a decient job.

4. I started making more money at a job i've been at the past 25 years.

Now i can afford the good stuff and plan on spending it all as long as i can on the hobby until i'm disabled or the day i die. Which ever comes first.

   One of the reasons it's so expensive is that there really aren't a lot of MRRer's when you look at a global market which goes back to that old supply and demand thing. The less there is of something, the more it's gonna cost. ....chuck

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Posted by B&O1952 on Monday, March 16, 2009 9:45 AM

 Actually, It comes down to a couple of things. Resources, patience, and what a person is actually willing to pay for an item. With the internet, hobby stores, and train shows, there are many more avenues for the modeler to utilize. If a guy is willing to model with used items, he can save a bundle of cash that can be used for more expensive items that he may be looking for. I always look for track lots at the train show where I can get a close look at the track. You can get a good deal on rolling stock and structures as well. Most train shows also offer a test track to try locomotives before purchasing if you are looking at used locos. The internet offers you a chance to compare price just about anything you may want. Internet auctions are even better. You can set your price range for an item, and you may just get what you're looking for with a little luck. I won the bid on a brand new P2K B&O F7 with sound and dcc for $58.00 last week.  Patience is a virtue. If you can wait for an item, you may find it for your price. One other thing, compare it to the cost of other hobbies. I have 2 sons who snowboard all winter at a cost of about $700.00 each. Think about what you could buy for your layout for that kind of cash! They also play video games on a new XBOX 360. The games alone run for about $75.00 apiece. Add on the cost of the game system, and a fee to use XBOX live, and you're talking about a pretty expensive hobby.  I guess it's all relative. Btw, they also participate in the model RR project.

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Monday, March 16, 2009 9:56 AM

cwclark
 One of the reasons it's so expensive is that there really aren't a lot of MRRer's when you look at a global market which goes back to that old supply and demand thing. The less there is of something, the more it's gonna cost. ....chuck

 

Quite true. The issue was always that and the issue adding to this is the " I don' wanna--" scratchbuild gotta have the latest of the latest more expensive--and we'll pay top dollar for something that turns out not to work so they throw it out kind of people--and guys like me buy this cast off--fix the hiccup and 'voila!' it works!!Tongue

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Posted by reklein on Monday, March 16, 2009 10:06 AM

I been lookin at some MRRs from the 50s. Price of the mag was 35 cents. The Varney ads on the back which usually consisted of a photo by John Allen adavertised cars for $1.70 to $2.95 and an engine for around $13.00. Just my My 2 cents,BILL

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Monday, March 16, 2009 10:16 AM

reklein

I been lookin at some MRRs from the 50s. Price of the mag was 35 cents. The Varney ads on the back which usually consisted of a photo by John Allen adavertised cars for $1.70 to $2.95 and an engine for around $13.00. Just my My 2 cents,BILL

AAHHH--But how much was the average wage back then? In calculating the relative expenses and such we never seem to take that wage issue into the equation

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...

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Posted by emdgp92 on Monday, March 16, 2009 10:34 AM

 Jeez, is it just me, or do these threads show up every few months?

Model Railroading *can* be an expensive hobby, but it doesn't have to be. There are always bargains out there, provided you know where to look. Not long ago, I found an N scale Kato E8 that was salvaged after its hobby shop was flooded. Nothing wrong with the E, other than some mud on the box. As such, I picked it up for less than $40. Granted, it's painted wrong--in Southern green, while I'm a Penn Central modeler...but for $40, I couldn't complain, and eventually it'll get a PC black paint job. You don't see Kato engines of *any* type marked down that much!

But, some of the high prices can be blamed on companies like Walthers. Not long after they took over the Life-Like/P2K brands, they nearly doubled them. Odd, since the locomotives were *exactly* the same. No new tooling, no additional detail parts, etc. Not surprising, they apparently had trouble selling them...and then brought them down to more reasonable levels. I'm glad I found my HO scale NYC E8 when I did :p

Oh, and MR-ing isn't nearly as expensive as restoring an old car. I'm just wrapping up the ridiculously long-term restoration of my 1969 MGB GT. Cost? I don't even want to think about it--even though the body was pretty solid, the panels, paint, and welding costs could have bought a good first-generation Mazda Miata.. "Expensive" is all relative, I guess :)

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Posted by BRAKIE on Monday, March 16, 2009 10:43 AM

blownout cylinder

reklein

I been lookin at some MRRs from the 50s. Price of the mag was 35 cents. The Varney ads on the back which usually consisted of a photo by John Allen adavertised cars for $1.70 to $2.95 and an engine for around $13.00. Just my My 2 cents,BILL

AAHHH--But how much was the average wage back then? In calculating the relative expenses and such we never seem to take that wage issue into the equation

 

Barry,Every time this comes up so does the wages back then..

Many forget there was a lot of good paying Union factory and construction jobs in the 50/60s.Times was good..Didn't like your current job? Quit and go to work within 48 hours for another company.

 

A good union factory job would pay $130-140 a week-bring home was around $105.00(a lot of cash back then)..Taxes wasn't as high back then either,nor was car or mortgage payments...

 A brass engine was as low as $21.95..A Athearn car kit could be had for $1.25..MR and Trains was 50 cents.

There is no way to compare today with the 50/60s..

 

Unless you can take $5.00 and can go to a movie,have McD burgers,a milkshake and still have $2.00 left..

 

Put $3.00 in your gas tank and cruise the drive ins on Friday and Saturday night...

 

Yup..Good times.

Larry

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Posted by Autobus Prime on Monday, March 16, 2009 10:52 AM

reklein

I been lookin at some MRRs from the 50s. Price of the mag was 35 cents. The Varney ads on the back which usually consisted of a photo by John Allen adavertised cars for $1.70 to $2.95 and an engine for around $13.00. Just my My 2 cents,BILL

rk:

This would be about $12-$20 for the cars and $91 for the loco in today's dollars, depending on what year it was.  Varney wasn't the cheapest supplier around. 

I don't think we can just say "inflation". There's more to it.  Loco and car kits did go up at a fairly steady rate.  However, the set of popular mass-market stuff seems to have *decreased* in actual inflation-adjusted price up until the mid-1990s or so, but after that we've had increases, and I wonder why.

Possibly, it is because so much now is produced as some sort of limited run.  Maybe the average model railroader has more income now, and doesn't have to worry about price, or maybe some manufacturers have decided that they don't need the other kind.  There does seem to be less emphasis on economy in the hobby press, and in the manufacturers' ad copy, compared with 15-20 years ago and before.  Is there some sort of taboo in effect, where we don't want to have our train time spoiled by dismal economics? Smile

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Posted by Rangerover on Monday, March 16, 2009 10:58 AM

I think it's all relevant/irrelevant whatever....a brand new 1979 Chevrolet Corvette $12,313.00

In the early 70's I had a mortgage, raising 2 kids, model RRing...Well I waited for the sales on Loco's before I purchased them, I remember the last one, I still have from then, went on sale for $9.99 from $12.99 at a LHS.

Funny today I wait for them and any MRR stuff to go on sale, unless I really want it now. The Internet has made it possible to find sales on most everything. I really don't see my hobby or my other hobby's price too expensive or out of sight to where I would quit or find it too expensive! 

So I'm not complaining at  all, too old and wise for that nonsense anyhow!

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Monday, March 16, 2009 11:32 AM

BRAKIE

Barry,Every time this comes up so does the wages back then..

Many forget there was a lot of good paying Union factory and construction jobs in the 50/60s.Times was good..Didn't like your current job? Quit and go to work within 48 hours for another company.

 

A good union factory job would pay $130-140 a week-bring home was around $105.00(a lot of cash back then)..Taxes wasn't as high back then either,nor was car or mortgage payments...

 A brass engine was as low as $21.95..A Athearn car kit could be had for $1.25..MR and Trains was 50 cents.

There is no way to compare today with the 50/60s..

There were also jobs in mgmt, retail and such that were not quite so well paying. Then along came the "Post Industrial '70's" and now we see that the mfg jobs aren't near as plentiful so of course one sees more of the "this hobby is expensive---" threads.

Besides--even nowadays deals can be had---do a bit of hunting. If no deal can be found learn--or do--scratchbuilding---have fun!

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by andrechapelon on Monday, March 16, 2009 11:49 AM

.......And in either event, stop complaining about it.

What he said.Thumbs Up

Andre

 

It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip.
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Posted by andrechapelon on Monday, March 16, 2009 12:17 PM

That was then and this is now. I also can't understand why you can not see that there are many different factors that have a baring on price, enough so that comparing prices from widely different generations are pointless and are not helpful in answering what the OP wanted to discuss. Direct comparisons of this type are of limited interest if they are not germane to the subject of the original posting.

For crying out loud, my university degree was in Economics. A great deal of my career in IT was supporting the financial arm of the company I worked for. I've provided seed money for a small business startup. I've forgotten more than most people will ever know about what bears on prices.

What's at work with those who continuously bellyache about hobby pricing is a sense of victimhood coupled with a sense of entitlement to high quality merchandise at bargain basement prices. It costs money to develop the products on offer. The market is not only not large, it's fragmented as well. Production runs are small compared to other industrial output. Economies of scale of the kind seen in other industries is not possible. Nobody ever seems to consider that. Athearn is a relatively big manufacturer in its market, but it's microscopic compared to the likes of Ford or Toyota.

I don't give a flying fig if the cost of your airfare to New Zealand paid by you in 1969 is relatively more expensive then than the airfare paid today to cover the same journey. Conditions existing in the airline industry at that time were vastly different than they are today - in 1969 it was still considered by many to be a luxury to travel by air. Now international air travel is routine and with specials offered by many airlines - $1.00 ( special conditions apply, needless to say) to fly between Auckland and Christchurch by Virgin Blue, air travel has never been cheaper. Once again though, your reasoning is flawed if you believe that there is within the context of the OP's original proposition a need for this comparison. That was then and this is now. I also can't understand why you can not see that there are many different factors that have a baring on price, enough so that comparing prices from widely different generations are pointless and are not helpful in answering what the OP wanted to discuss. Direct comparisons of this type are of limited interest if they are not germane to the subject of the original posting.

 Conditions in a whole host of industries are vastly different than they were before. It was vastly cheaper to make a trans-Pacific flight in 1969 than it was in 1939, not only in relative terms, but in absolute terms and it's even cheaper now.  

The hobby is totally discretionary. No one "needs" trains anymore than they "need" a vacation trip to Fiji. If you can't afford it now, save for it if it's something you value or just don't do it, but in the name of all that's holy, quit bellyaching about it.

EDIT: The above is not directed at you personally, but at a general audience.

I shouldn't have to point out the obvious to you, but there is nowhere stated or implied in any thing I have written in this post that I believe we are the victims of price gouging by QANTAS or anybody else in the business community servicing model railroaders - where did you get that from, it's a little creative, I do believe. 

 
I was using it as an example and I didn't accuse you of believing that we are being gouged by QANTAS. If you had followed the numerous threads that have arisen on this topic, you would have discovered that there actually ARE a considerable number of people who DO believe that hobby suppliers are price gouging. They are the ones I had in mind.
 
Andre
It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip.
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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, March 16, 2009 2:26 PM

BRAKIE

Many forget there was a lot of good paying Union factory and construction jobs in the 50/60s.Times was good..Didn't like your current job? Quit and go to work within 48 hours for another company.

 

A good union factory job would pay $130-140 a week-bring home was around $105.00(a lot of cash back then)..Taxes wasn't as high back then either,nor was car or mortgage payments...

Larry,

You want to know why all those jobs are gone? Because after a while people like me who didn't have those kind of high wage jobs stopped buying the over priced stuff you produced.

That combined with the high taxes and high regulation have driven all the industry out of this country.

GM is not in trouble because they can't build good cars, their in trouble because they pay too much to have the fenders installed and then pay too much retirement to people who should have saved and invested those high wages rather than expecting someone to take care of them later.

I'm really tired of the "somebody owes me a good job with a fat retirement package" thinking and all that goes with it.

Stop complaining! Earn more money or do without, I'm tired of paying for people who don't work. Tired of high taxes and noisy government.

I'm sorry some of you didn't learn economics in school or didn't plan your future better, but its not the fault of Athearn, Bachmann, Walthers, Atlas or any of the rest of the MR industry. And its not the fault of the rest of us who understand economics or who ended up in different circumstances that you did not.

Again - "The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings, but, the universal blessing of socialism is the equal distribution of the misery" - Winston Churchill


Fact is, one hours labor at any given trade today, buys about what it did 10 years, 20 years or 30 years ago. The fact that there are fewer jobs in some trades, or that the government taxes are a larger percentage, or the banker charges more interest because you finance 100% of your home instead of 70%, all have nothing to do with it.

If you really don't like the price of model trains, stop voting for those who would raise your taxes and keep promising to "care" for you.

"Any man that would give up the smallest measure of liberty for any measure of security, has and deserves niether" - Ben Franklin

Sheldon 

 

    

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Posted by BRAKIE on Monday, March 16, 2009 3:13 PM

Sheldon,Thanks to my last union job I have a very nice medical retirement..Thumbs Up It wasn't a handout..I earned it by working and adding to the retirement fund which is and remains 50-50 deal.I paid 50% the company matched it..Nothing is free..

 

Larry

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Posted by Midnight Railroader on Monday, March 16, 2009 3:30 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
and then pay too much retirement to people who should have saved and invested those high wages

 

Oh, you mean the 401(k) plan pushed by cheap companies so they wouldn't have to pay pensions anymore?

Yeah, those are great. Mine lost $5,000 in value thanks to the economy tanking. That's $5,000 of my money that's gone.

"Too much" retirement? If someone works for you for 25 years, they deserve it for their loyalty. 

 

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, March 16, 2009 4:09 PM

Midnight,

First let me say that when people or companies promise something, they should stick to it. A deal is a deal.

However, that does not mean it was a sound economic idea in the first place. The big union wages and benifits of the 60's and the high taxes from then to now have put us where we are.

401(k), that's just more big government and big corperate BS in my view. But like anything in the stock market, its not gone until you sell at a loss.

I have been self employed or worked for small companies all my life, my only retirement is what I have saved and invested. I WAS the other 50% for my self. None of that is in the stock market. I saw the folly in that years ago and got out.

Your references to "cheap" companies and "they deserve" clearly show we are philosophcally at oposite ends of the heart of this issue.

Have you ever ran you own company? Decided who earns what or what products will cost, or seen the real cost of doing business? OR, most important, risked your own money with no garrantee of success? Or actually lost money in a business venture?

It is easy to be critical of business when you have always been on the pay check recieving end and not on the pay check writing end. 

I have no quarrel with those who have chosen what they saw as a more secure route than what I took, however I expect them to live with their choices just as I have had to live with mine, good and bad, without complaint or blaming others.

Liberal - A person who feels a great debt to his fellow man, a debt he proposes to pay with other peoples money.

Conservative - A person who has paid his debt to his fellow man, by earning his own money.

We should simply agree to disagree, so I will consider this my last comment.

Sheldon 

    

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Posted by Autobus Prime on Monday, March 16, 2009 4:22 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

You want to know why all those jobs are gone? Because after a while people like me who didn't have those kind of high wage jobs stopped buying the over priced stuff you produced.

That combined with the high taxes and high regulation have driven all the industry out of this country.

But manufacturing hasn't been driven out of this country.  Far from it.  In fact, the US is the #1 manufacturing nation on Earth.  Why do people not realize this?

There's a TON of manufacturing in the US.  We're here, making the stuff you use every day. The post-industrial misconception is a harmful one, because it keeps smart kids with mechanical aptitude from seeking out training, and keeps us from getting the good people we need to make manufacturing even better.   

A great deal of the highly publicized offshoring wasn't motivated by long-term cost savings, but of a shortsighted desire to invest the money in the high-performing stock market, instead of the plant.  As it turned out, the performance was artificial, and now those companies are struggling.  Boo hoo.   The farsighted ones invested in manufacturing, and this will pay dividends, monetary and otherwise, in the long run.  The easy way to wealth ... isn't. 

Despite all our regulation and taxation, and against every attempt by the shortsighted profiteers and politicians to dismantle our industrial patrimony, we are still the number one manufacturing nation on Earth (look it up) and we do it while paying a living wage and protecting the natural environment.  THAT is an accomplishment worthy of note, instead of ignoring, wouldn't you say?

GM is not in trouble because they can't build good cars, their in trouble because they pay too much to have the fenders installed and then pay too much retirement to people who should have saved and invested those high wages rather than expecting someone to take care of them later.

I'm really tired of the "somebody owes me a good job with a fat retirement package" thinking and all that goes with it.

You'll never catch me saying a living wage is too much, or that the people who made you a few million dollars, each, during their carreers, don't deserve a few hundred thousand of that after retirement.  I'm not going to sit by the track and cheer the race to the bottom.  That's something to be lamented.

I am glad to see you don't subscribe to the widespread poor-quality or low-technology myth, however.  Good for you! 

I do agree that certain other manufacturers are at an unfair advantage, mostly because they have fewer retirees.  That's the breaks, I guess, but what can be done about it?  I guess that's a topic for another day.

How does this have anything to do with model railroading?  I guess we should consider: have we ignored the manufacturing end of the hobby too much, in favor of farming it out and reaping easy profits? If we have, what are we going to do when the imports become too expensive?  This happened before, with brass.  It will happen again with Chinese plastic.

 

 

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Posted by citylimits on Monday, March 16, 2009 5:18 PM

Smile

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Bruce,

Based on your view, there is no answer to the OP's question.

The model railroad industry is not responsible for how much disposable income he, you or anyone else has or does not have. They are by no means obligated to lower their prices because someone thinks they are too high. As I and others have suggested, the market will control that.

They are only responsible for making a market competitive product within the current costs of production.

I think we have established that they are doing so.

Nobody "owes" anyone access to this hobby, or even food and shelter in my world view.

Make more money or don't buy as many trains. And in either event, stop complaining about it.

"The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings, the universal blessing of socialism is the equal distrabution of the misery" - Wiston Churchill

Sheldon

 

 

My goodness, Sheldon, did you find all of that in what I have written elsewhere on this subject? 
I am hoping that perhaps you are making your thoughts know to a general audience. Look the OPs question is very simple and is definitely answerable. All these side issues are only muddying up the waters.
 
Perhaps if I posted my thoughts in a different way they may become clearer. Here is a hypothetical conversation between one model railroader and another - I'm trying to make this conversation a reflection of the current discourse in this subject. I'm trying also to show some of the ways people can think - they might not be correct, but that just what they think.
So here goes:
 
MR #1: So, you like that Genesis Mikado - are you going to grab it?
 
MR #2: Nah, its too expensive for me right now, what with taxes to pay and I want to help send the grand kids to College.
 
MR #1: OK, but the Mike is good value - it's DCC ready and look at all that detail.
 
MR#2: Yeah, your right about that, but  the DCC ready stuff makes the Mike too expensive (for me) right now. Besides, I still run DC and making the change to DCC & sound is just way too expensive - I do like the way it works though.
 
MR#1: You don't have to use the DCC - it'll run fine on your pike. Do you realise that even with the added features, this model loco is actually cheaper than what we used to pay in the sixties when we were starting out.
 
MR#2: That's interesting, but how does that fact make it easier for me to buy this one now?
 
MR#1: Well it should do - I think you may be just a bit slow in recognising a good price when you see it.
 
MR#2: Sometimes I think that with all this new technology loaded into our models we may run the risk of being priced out of the hobby, but the range of choice is certainly much greater than when we were kids - that's for sure. With all of this stuff to buy I think that the hobby generally has become too expensive now.
 
MR#1. Look, why are you busting out all this liberal twaddle - you never used to be that way?
 
MR#2: Heck, Hank, where did all that come from, I just said that I thought the Mike was too expensive for me to buy right now and it may be that with a declining income I may never be able to buy it.
 
MR#1: Perhaps if I told you an encouraging quote or two from (Sir) Winston Churchill that may show you how your socialist views are effecting your ability to recognise just how much of a bargain you are passing up.
 
MR#2: Sure if that will help me get that Mike.
 
MR#1: No, it wont do that, but it may change the way you think about the MR industry in general. You know, they're not really trying to rip you off or make huge profits at your expense - I don't know why you would even think that. All that price gouging nonsense you've just come out with is getting me quite upset - why don't you just go out and make more money, they're always hiring at Mc Donald's and I'm told they pay an extra quarter an hour after midnight - see, problem solved.
 
MR#2: Yeah and I'll be too beat to worry about all this  political stuff or even give a tinkers cuss about my model railroad - yes, the advantages of working my guts out at an all night burger joint are becoming more and more obvious. Hey, thanks for clearing up a lot of stuff for me, I can see where I've been going wrong now. It's just that I can't built kits the way I used to - the parts are getting so small and fiddly I'm gluing air hoses to the trucks of some cars - see what being a socialist liberal can do to a man? I kind of have to buy RTR now.
 
MR#1: Look, if you stopped complaining every time you stumbled on some small inconvenience it would be a lot better for all of us. You need to go back home and get your lathe and English Wheel out from under the work bench and scratch build a Mike from all that brass stock you've horded. What ever you do though, stop this infernal whining about how tough your life is.
 
MR#2: Well, it's not so easy for me to do that now - I had to sell the lathe to buy the Spectrum yard goat you reckoned I should have.
 
MR#1: That was an excellent buy, in getting that model you were actually saving about fifty bucks over 1960's prices - it was important that I steered you in the right direction on that one. I can save you even more money too if you buy that Mikado.
 
MR#2: OK, I'll sell the English Wheel and the brass stock - I hope any buyer won't think my asking price will be too expensive though - I really do want that Mike.
 
BruceSmile
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Posted by blownout cylinder on Monday, March 16, 2009 5:24 PM

When companies pay execs upwards of 900% or more of the cost of the guy working the plant floor plus the really strange bonuses---and somehow these are never talked about as PART of the overall labour costs I do tend to get a little piculous---look at one certain insurance co's bonuses--given from a bailout no less--no wonder there is a lot of irritation going on.

But what the hey--we could drop all kinds of pension funds, all those 401K's--ever factor in cost of maintaining those funds for a company?--and go back to the age old idea--seemed to work for others before---saving for a rainy day. By the way--not all businesses pay pension funds--mine never did--and I'm glad they never did--I invested in my own stuff and stocks and can still see returns---Smile,Wink, & GrinWhistling

But now that we're here how to go to that spot for large segments is rather tricky.

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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