Model railroading is a bargain, folks. --------------------------------------------------
Catfishing is a good bargain these days.Less the $100.00 will put you on the bank with a good rod and reel rig and a well stock "catter's box"..You will find Mr.Whiskers in any nearby stream,lake or river...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I live quite nicely on my pension and can still buy want I need or want..
Amen to that brakie, I believe some of us old timers have been through some of the best and worst. Inflation is what will put a dent in how I spend my "hobby" money. I don't mean to, nor want to bring politics in this or any discussion of my hobby interest, however just around the corner within the next year or 2 there will be high inflation and that means our dollars won't be buying what they do right now. Printing more money with no real standard like gold and silver, and borrowing will cause inflation to rise. Anybody remember our currency was printed in Silver Certificates, they're just promisary notes (Federal Reserve Notes) today. All I'm saying is if there is an expensive piece modeler's are putting off buying now, it would would be smart to reconsider, I know I am! Been there and have seen that!
An above poster asked about other hobby's. I'm also a competitive high power rifle shooter. Not going into detail or nook and cranny of "expense". But one good example is I shoot out a match rifle barrel about every 3,000 rounds. When I was working I didn't care that I spent $1,000 for a new barrel replacement, once every 12 to 18 months. I just replaced my AR-15 National Match Upper at White Oak Arms for this season for a little over a thousand dollars. Local Hobby Shops and Gunsmith's are quite alike when it comes to cost. My local gunsmith wanted just under a thousand to replace only the barrel, Krieger Stainless Steel heavy barrel so the reason I got the whole upper, new gas port tube and matching bolt and carrier.....and the Krieger barrel far cheaper than a gunsmith. Reloading components are about twice the cost of 10 years ago, and nothing really changed with those in technology. But if I had to buy factory loaded match ammo, I wouldn't be enjoying that sport or hobby. I've been shooting competitive for 35 years.
Both hobby's Model railroading and shooting are expensive hobby's, but at present time, LOL and for what time I have left, I choose to enjoy my life, hey at least I don't have stress of the job any more. These are the BEST of times, so I enjoy!
Sigh. I guess it's time for one of these threads again. I admit it's been a while, but these threads always bring out the Prognosticators Of Doom People...and I see the head honcho of the POD People has already posted on this thread.
Remember folks, it's a hobby. You don't need to buy any model railroad item. You need to pay the rent, you need to pay for food, you need to pay for the gas to earn the money to pay for the rent & the food, but you don't need to pay for model train supplies.
Think a $12 switch is too expensive? Build one by hand.
Think a $3.79 package of ground foam is too expensive? Use dyed sawdust or grind your own foam.
Think the latest $220 F7A from Athearn w/ sound is too expensive? Buy a new Blue Box Athearn F7A for $40.
Really, folks, the hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be.
We could say anything is too expensive. Take autos, for example. We could all sit around all day and complain about the high costs of Ferarris, BMW's, and Lexus cars...but that doesn't eliminate Fords, Chevys, and Kia's from being cars, too. They just aren't as fast or luxurious.
What's that old saying? You can pick two of of three: Fast, Cheap, or Good. If you want it Good and Fast, it won't be Cheap. If you want it Good and Cheap, it won't be Fast. If you want it Fast and Cheap, it won't be Good. This all holds true with our hobby.
John (CNJ),How would you compare prices for model railroad supplies across the ages if you aren't going to use the CPI? You've only said we shouldn't, but you haven't said what we should use.
As for old timers being forced out of the hobby, I disagree. It's a hobby, not a profession. One cannot be fired as a model railroader.
I am reminded of a friend of mine (who has since passed away) that complained loudly when we raised the dues $1 per month 10 years ago at our model railroad club. He was a long retired cop & pipefitter and was a WWII vet, so he was around 75 years old at the time. He made several comments about how he was on a fixed income and that it was such a burden to pay an extra $12 a year for membership, etc.
The very next month, he brought in three new hobby purchases: two Overland NH brass NE-6 cabooses at $250 ea., and one Overland B&A brass steam loco that was around $1000, IIRC. Total cost: approx. $1500. When I called him on it, saying, "Geez, Bob, why were you complaining about the extra $1 per month for dues when you can afford all this?" He replied, "Well, I've been saving up for these." I said, "And you can't save up $12 a year for the club?" He didn't have much of an answer, and so I stopped believing him when he cried poor mouth after that.BHirschi,You'd be hardpressed to determine which SD35 you're looking at comparing the 1979 version to the 2009 version? Did you happen to notice the new gearing? The new, thinner handrails? The see-through roof fans? The dozen lift rings? The dozen grabirons? The cab shades, drop steps, the cut levers, and air hoses? The brake piping and sand lines on the trucks? How about the road specific horns and bells? Or the realistic lighting effects vs. the single bulb? Heck, the entire loco could be all new tooling for all we know, and probably is considering the SDP35's and the high nose versions are the same price as the basic version.
About the only locos that I know of that are still approx. the same as they were in 1979 that are still in production today that are unchanged are the Athearn BB F7A's (but they do have better paint). They can be had for $40 MSRP at Horizon's website. How much were they in 1979? Every other model I can think of that's been around for that long has been upgraded somehow with either more detail or with a better drive.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
WOW! 3 pages in 3.5 hours! I think that's a new record.
BHirschiI'm managing my MR budget by buying as much as I can at train shows, from the online yard sale site mentioned elsewhere, and -- when I can find a bargain on something I need -- from eBay.Bill
I'm managing my MR budget by buying as much as I can at train shows, from the online yard sale site mentioned elsewhere, and -- when I can find a bargain on something I need -- from eBay.
Bill
ebay IS the online yard sale I was alluding to :)
Hi,
Rangerover I have to agree totally with your outlook on the way inflation will hit us. As for the hobby, it is as expensive as you make it. Yes puchasing track and such basic items are costs one can not avoid but after that we have a huge range of choice in what we wish to pay for the items we are after. Also the nice thing is that once the layout is finished the expenses start to go down unlike a hobby like snowmobiles.
If I look at my European counterparts I think we are very fortunate to be able to purchase our products at the prices we purchase them at. Here is an example right out of the Walthers catalogue. The engine is a typical four axle diesel still used on the German railways, the equal to that would be the GP38 type engine over here. The "manufacturer" is Brawa who gets their engines made the same place in China where the P2K engines are made. Here is the link http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/186-392 .
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
Expensive ??????
It may be expesive...................
...............but it is cheaper than psychiatry!
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
I ran this thread several months ago. I was asking the same question. Now 99.99 ( I'm talking about diesel loco's) for a loco RTR where as 20 years ago you could get a loco for 20 to 30 bucks, and steam 129.99 now its 300.00 RTR I have the receipts to prove that. Thats basically the same loco too, minus the DCC stuff now. I guess with all the changes I seen over the years I guess the price is about right with inflation and with the change of loco to a DCC set up Its about right. It seems to be the rolling stock where the biggest price change has been. Track is comparably right on it, its only gone up nomenally over the years.
Too expensive I don't think so. With the inrows and changes The pricing today is comparably with inflation rates and the way the econmey is its about right.
4x8 are fun too!!! RussellRail
loathar WOW! 3 pages in 3.5 hours! I think that's a new record.
It might be one of THOSE threads---the thread that ate----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Paul3and I see the head honcho of the POD People has already posted on this thread.
Haven't you seen the movie--"Invasion Of The POD people"? Sort of along the same line as "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" ----could they be related?
I bought my first car kits with my allowance money in 1948, so I guess I qualify as an old-timer...
The inflation-adjusted prices for anything except brand-new hand-crafted DCC-ready brass is lower now than it was half a century ago. However, the quality is orders of magnitude better. Compare 1950s Atlas flex (Code 100 brass stapled to fiber tie strip - awsomely ugly, but state of the art, 75 cents a yard) to present-day Atlas flex (Code 83 on accurately-dimensioned ties that look like wood or concrete) and consider that the present day product MSRP would have been about 40 cents in 1950.
Much of my rolling stock collection was purchased in Japan in the 1960s. The identical items from the same manufacturers, are advertised today in Tetsudo Mokei Shumi (Japanese-language equivalent of MR,) at ten times or more the prices I paid - in yen. Then factor in the exchange rate (360 yen = $1 then, 94 yen = $1 this morning) - my wallet cringes at the thought of either adding to or replacing my collection!
As for how expensive this hobby is - it is exactly as expensive as you allow it to be. Granted that the prices of some items are high. There are always less expensive work-arounds if one is willing to learn the techniques needed to use them. I can create an entire puzzle palace yard throat for about the price of one ready-to-install double slip switch - and I don't consider myself a master tracklayer. Rather than ante up $ for a fancy switch machine linkage, I learned how to make the same thing from a piece of tubing (salvaged from a used-up ball pen) and a bent paper clip. I shop the sales catalogs and the consignment shelves of my LHS, and only buy things that can fit into my grand scheme (which has been set in stone for better than 40 years now.)
One last thought. As long as you aren't adding to your debt to pay for it, model railroading is cheaper than almost anything else you could be doing with your time.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - inexpensively)
Kitbashing can save a lot of money too. I tried something because I was frustrated with not being able to buy rustic looking ho scale cabins, oh I saw the hunter cabin and I do have a copy of it but I wanted something that I saw at an expensive restaurant here in West Virginia. About 10 miles from where I live, The Cheat River Lodge and Restaurant and it has rustic cabins along the Cheat River, best trout fishing this side of ole miss in my opinion. I formed the river, but no where near complete yet. I made my own cabins out of bass wood ripped down to 1/16 by 1/16, and went ahead and accomplished it complete with outhouses. It was most rewarding. I now am going to build the Lodge at Cheat River and going there to take pictures of it so I get it right.
Paul:
Frankly, I'm getting very tired of getting into an argument with you every time I post on this forum.
I said the new SD35 has more and better details than the original. I don't know whether the new gearing is better because I haven't bought the new one, but the old one ran fine for years and years, and would creep along at a snail's pace all day if you wanted to, so there was certainly nothing wrong with the original drive train. But the obvious question is do a few added detail parts justify doubling the price in adjusted dollars? Apparently Atlas thinks so, and as long as they're selling enough SD35s to justify keeping it in production, they're probably right.
But I also said none of the new detail added to the new Atlas SD35 does me any good, because I can't justify spending $135 on it, given my budget. The freaking thing could have a tiny, fully-functional exact-scale EMD prime mover driving tiny little traction motors on each axle and it wouldn't matter to me. Would I love to have a new Atlas SD35 with all the new details? Yes. Would I love to have an Intermountain SCL U18B with DCC and sound? Heck yes. One of each road number, please. But I can't afford them.
Those who say nobody's forcing me to be in the hobby are absolutely right. Those who say I can find ways to be in the hobby even on my limited budget are also right, and I explained in my post how I'm doing that. All your points about hand-laying switches if you don't want to pay more for ready-made ones and grinding your own foam for scenery are well-taken.
The question asked by the OP was: "Cost of MR hobby too expensive?"
"Too" expensive is subjective. And as you and others have correctly pointed out, there are ways to be in the hobby without spending a small fortune. But others here have argued that the models available today really aren't more expensive than they were in "the good old days." And the main point I was making still stands -- regardless of whether it's better than the original or not, the fact remains that an HO scale Atlas SD35, in inflation-adjusted dollars, costs nearly twice as much today as it did in 1979. That's not a matter of opinion. It's a simple fact. You can argue whether or not it's worth twice the price because it has more details and a better drive train. But you can't argue that it costs the same or less.
That's all I said. And that's all I'm sayin'.
Example of detailing swap meet models: Flat Cars by the Dozen
jwhitten Is it just me or what? (I'm looking for some old-timer perspective here...) The cost of this hobby just seems astronomically staggering ! It just seems like every single manufacturer is out to put their kids through college on a single hopper car or bag of ground foam. I'm not complaining that things cost money, people gotta eat-- but it seems pretty ridiculous. And it hasn't always been this way. For example, sometimes when I buy stuff from that big online yard sale place, it'll show up with the original price tags still on the box. For example, I just got through buying a bunch of Shinohara turnouts recently. #6's LH&HR, among others, new old stock... I thought I was getting a deal at $12 bucks each. I see them advertised elsewhere online for $20+ and up. So they get here and I was looking through them and then notice the _original_ price... $1.29, from a _DRUG STORE_ no less ! I understand a lot of things about buying and selling, particularly that things are worth whatever people will pay for them. So I know that's the real answer here-- people have bucks to spend and are willing to spend them even at these prices. I'm just saying. (Can I get an amen :)
Is it just me or what? (I'm looking for some old-timer perspective here...)
The cost of this hobby just seems astronomically staggering !
It just seems like every single manufacturer is out to put their kids through college on a single hopper car or bag of ground foam.
I'm not complaining that things cost money, people gotta eat-- but it seems pretty ridiculous. And it hasn't always been this way. For example, sometimes when I buy stuff from that big online yard sale place, it'll show up with the original price tags still on the box. For example, I just got through buying a bunch of Shinohara turnouts recently. #6's LH&HR, among others, new old stock... I thought I was getting a deal at $12 bucks each. I see them advertised elsewhere online for $20+ and up. So they get here and I was looking through them and then notice the _original_ price... $1.29, from a _DRUG STORE_ no less !
I understand a lot of things about buying and selling, particularly that things are worth whatever people will pay for them. So I know that's the real answer here-- people have bucks to spend and are willing to spend them even at these prices.
I'm just saying.
(Can I get an amen :)
How many times does a horse have to be beaten before everyone is satisfied he's dead? This poor beast is not only dead, he's in a very advanced state of decomposition. The smell alone should be enough to keep everybody from getting close enough to take a whack at him. Nonetheless, flogging seems to be the order of the day.
No, you can't get an amen and no, the hobby is not outrageously expensive compared to inflation adjusted prices back when some of the older posters on this forum were still soiling their diapers. I'd give you examples, but those who can't handle the truth would accuse me of cherry-picking or ignoring some fleeting moment in time when things were slightly (oh so slightly) cheaper on a relative basis.
Given the vast improvement in overall running quality and detail (ever see the blobs that passed for Blomberg trucks on an Athearn F7 from the 50's or 60's?) people should be sacrificing goats to the hobby gods to thank them for the incredible explosion in items available over just the last 10 years.
Andre
Bill said:"Too" expensive is subjective. And as you and others have correctly pointed out, there are ways to be in the hobby without spending a small fortune. But others here have argued that the models available today really aren't more expensive than they were in "the good old days."
----------------------------------------------------
Good old days..I remember 'em well..
At the age of 14(1962) I bought my first brass steamer as could the average factory worker...I am 61 and can't afford brass..
What's wrong with that picture?
steamage Example of detailing swap meet models: Flat Cars by the Dozen
that's a cool site. Thanks for the link. Do you know of any others like that?
jwhitten BHirschi I'm managing my MR budget by buying as much as I can at train shows, from the online yard sale site mentioned elsewhere, and -- when I can find a bargain on something I need -- from eBay. Bill ebay IS the online yard sale I was alluding to :)
BHirschi I'm managing my MR budget by buying as much as I can at train shows, from the online yard sale site mentioned elsewhere, and -- when I can find a bargain on something I need -- from eBay. Bill
jwhitten:
Sorry, I thought you were alluding to HO Yardsale on Yahoo! Groups. Although I haven't had occasion to buy anything there yet, I am a member, and it's a great setup. Just post a "WTB" (Wanted to Buy) message for whatever you're looking for, and within hours, you'll more than likely have several people offering to sell it to you.
I'm going to be in the market (probably not until summer) for some used GP35s, 38s and 40s, perhaps a GP7 or 9 and some Athearn Blue Box U33Bs for my SCL-themed sectional layout, and that's where I'll be buying them.
Not a thing. Japan priced itself out of the brass market as its median income rose to rough parity with the US. Then the Koreans took over. Korea's wage level has risen considerably since the late 70's/early 80's. The cheap brass from Japan in the late 50's/early 60's was an aberration. Had Japan been as relatively developed in comparison to the US then as they are today, there never would have been a PFM, MB Austin, Max Gray, Westside, etc.
I also bought my first brass steamer in the early 60's. It cost me the equivalent of $230 in today's dollars. However, compared to today's brass, it was downright primitive and although it was based on a prototype, it was generic in that it just represented the general look of its prototype. With modern brass, you can get really highly detailed models that are correct for specific periods in their prototype history. That being said, I don't buy brass nor do I envy those who can pony up 4 figures for a single copy.
jwhittensteamage Example of detailing swap meet models: Flat Cars by the Dozen  that's a cool site. Thanks for the link. Do you know of any others like that?
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Here are a few more cheep modeling projects:
Operating HO Gravel Dump Cars, with Movie!
Upgreading Older Freight Cars
This hobby doesn't have to cost big dollars to have fun.
Noticing people comparing other hobbies to MR, do they not forget just how expensive those hobbies are? old cars, boats, golf, heavy drinking. if they compare cars expenses at $20,000.00 (or such) a year over to MR, and they spend more or less the same on MR, thats still a massive amount of money, then you get the guy who spends ONLY $10,000 and complains the hobby is too costly. From the forums of past the amounts that many MR's spend on the hobby is in my words astronomical, because many MR's have unlimited supplies of money, they make the tragic mistake in assuming that if they have lots of cash, everyone else does also, sorry it just ain't true. Yes this CAN be a very expensive hobby if you have the cash, but lot's are on the mooch and hope the others keep selling all their castoffs so we can continue the hobby without thinking that MR is a contest to see how much money can be spent on the hobby. got any brass track you want to get rid of???( the cry of the "other" model railroaders)
steamagejwhittensteamage Example of detailing swap meet models: Flat Cars by the Dozen that's a cool site. Thanks for the link. Do you know of any others like that? Again, very nice!I'd like to build operating coal and gravel on my layout. Now that I've seen that site, maybe I will :) Here are a few more cheep modeling projects: Operating HO Gravel Dump Cars, with Movie! Upgreading Older Freight Cars This hobby doesn't have to cost big dollars to have fun.
jwhittensteamage Example of detailing swap meet models: Flat Cars by the Dozen that's a cool site. Thanks for the link. Do you know of any others like that?
Again, very nice!
I'd like to build operating coal and gravel on my layout. Now that I've seen that site, maybe I will :)
Bill,I didn't realize that three times out of 20-some posts constituted "every time". I've had debates with probably hundreds of people on this and several other forums & groups for well over 10 years. Believe me, what we have both done in our debates on this forum is so benign it barely qualifies as a disagreement. Please note I'm not screaming, swearing, launching personal attacks...nothing of the sort. I think we can have a disagreement without being disagreeable. 'K?
If you post a statement, and I say "You're wrong," it doesn't mean I think "you're an idiot", I just think you're wrong...nothing more.
You did say the Atlas SD35 has more detail, but you said it in a depreciative way ("...with a few more details...", and "Atlas has slapped on a few more details..."). In fact, Atlas added many detail parts, etc.
I have one of the old SD35's, and the gearing is much better these days, and much quieter. The old ones used to growl (not as bad as Athearn, but still...).
'K, we can disagree without being disagreeable. And it's not always you, but it does seem that every time I state an opinion on this board, it quickly degenerates into a flame war. Granted, I can be opinionated, but it also seems often my words get twisted and used against me. Finally, what bothers me most is when what was a good (if somewhat lively) discussion gets shut down by the moderators because too many people seem to be getting upset and talking past each other instead of to each other.
That said, I will grant you the old SD35 growled a bit. I guess in 1979, that's what passed for a sound system. It never bothered me much, and never seemed to affect the operation of the locomotive. Fact was, that SD35 was hands down the best locomotive I had during my earlier modeling years, and if I get half a chance, I'm going to buy another one (the old one, not the new one). I can detail it myself, again, buying and adding parts as budget permits.
Basically, I'm able to set aside about $20-40 a paycheck for modeling purchases, so I have to prioritize. The Jacksonville Train Show happily coincided with the arrival of my tax refund, so I was able to pick up an undecorated Proto 2000 E6 for $45. I'm now in the process of buying detail parts for it, again, a few at a time. Once I have all the parts in hand, I'll superdetail it and paint it as SCL No. 509. I'm putting a little extra aside from each check in the hopes of paying for the new BLI Blueline E7 I've got reserved when it comes out in November (which is what I was referring to when I talked about one locomotive blowing my modeling budget for the year). Those two locomotives will be the sum total of my SCL passenger motive power fleet.
As for the SCL freight engines, the fleet will be made up mainly of Athearn Blue Box U33Bs (which were actually models of U36Bs, which SCL had in abundance, especially here in Florida). If I can find them cheap, I'll also throw in a GP35, 38 and/or 40 or two, as well as a GP7 or 9 for local freights and, if I get lucky, that old Atlas SD35 (and maybe an Athearn SD45 dummy to go with it).
And who knows? Five years from now, when some of the rich guys who bought them get bored with them, I'll be able to pick up an Intermountain SCL U18B or two cheap at the train show in Jax!
Steamage:
No, it doesn't. However, complaining about the price of hobby items costs even less than that. Judging from the amount of kvetching that I see about the cost of the hobby, there ought to be a SIG (Special Interest Group) for those whose real hobby is complaining about about the cost of the hobby.
If I may be so bold as to suggest a name for such a SIG, why not call it "Kvetch 22"?
Any answer for a question like this is sorta like the story of the five blind men touching the elephant and each describing what they think they are feeling, but each is not only wrong, but describing something that is totally different from what the others are describing.
The hobby is expensive... The hobby isn't expensive.
John Allen, when asked how much money he spent on his layout, would say he figured he spent about the same money on it as he would have spent on smoking if he were a 2-pack a day smoker.
You have to think of it partly as expense divided by time. I just picked up a craftsman's kit for about $40, and I suspect it's going to be a fairly slow process since 1. I'm a little rusty on wood kits and 2. I want to be sure it's done right...so it might take 40 hours start to finish, meaning it cost me $1 an hour. Compared to other things you could do, that's pretty cheap.
Today's economy also makes it a good time to learn new skills. I hear people complain about how expensive Preiser figures are sometimes. Well, ya, if you buy only the pre-dec ones they're like $1 each in HO. If you buy the undec ones they work out to like 5 cents each. Course you have to take the time to paint them yourself, but if you do you're stretching out your hobby money and your time.
Paul3BHirschi,You'd be hardpressed to determine which SD35 you're looking at comparing the 1979 version to the 2009 version? Did you happen to notice the new gearing? The new, thinner handrails? The see-through roof fans? The dozen lift rings? The dozen grabirons? The cab shades, drop steps, the cut levers, and air hoses? The brake piping and sand lines on the trucks? How about the road specific horns and bells? Or the realistic lighting effects vs. the single bulb? Heck, the entire loco could be all new tooling for all we know, and probably is considering the SDP35's and the high nose versions are the same price as the basic version.
Aye--and there is the rub. Everytime there is an improvement up goes the price--hence my original comment regarding what I euphemistically called the R&D line on a company budget--and of course it gets recovered on a per unit cost basis.
And of course BHirschle will come up with the inflation calc because whether we like it or not--that goes up as well
So OOPS to this debate--until something monstrous like DEFLATION shows up we'll just have to live with it by hunkering down and looking for deals--which I got an armload of---heeheehee
andrechapelon If I may be so bold as to suggest a name for such a SIG, why not call it "Kvetch 22"? Andre
My dad used to get knocked on the head with a rolled up newspaper for jokes like that!!LOL!!
Well just today, my wife and I went to a few fleamarkets including one that we heard seemed to be having a clearout of one sort or another --I came out with 3 Proto N SW8's, 3 Proto Alco RS2's, a couple of Bachmann FM H16-44's, aWalthers-Heritage USRA 0-8-0 and 4 KATO RDC2's. Most barely used, DCC with sound and all for a little under $375cdn with our dear GST and all that. The empire is growing!!