Is it just me or what? (I'm looking for some old-timer perspective here...)
The cost of this hobby just seems astronomically staggering !
It just seems like every single manufacturer is out to put their kids through college on a single hopper car or bag of ground foam.
I'm not complaining that things cost money, people gotta eat-- but it seems pretty ridiculous. And it hasn't always been this way. For example, sometimes when I buy stuff from that big online yard sale place, it'll show up with the original price tags still on the box. For example, I just got through buying a bunch of Shinohara turnouts recently. #6's LH&HR, among others, new old stock... I thought I was getting a deal at $12 bucks each. I see them advertised elsewhere online for $20+ and up. So they get here and I was looking through them and then notice the _original_ price... $1.29, from a _DRUG STORE_ no less !
I understand a lot of things about buying and selling, particularly that things are worth whatever people will pay for them. So I know that's the real answer here-- people have bucks to spend and are willing to spend them even at these prices.
I'm just saying.
(Can I get an amen :)
Model railroading is an expensive hobby, there are so many facets involved. All hobbies are expensive. Once You get setup though, I don't think it is as expensive as other hobbies as You are at home or at the club if You're into that. I saw some old hotrod mags that I found last summer & I was astounded by the price increase of a simple Holley carb. & other items in the ads, Wow ! This is why I don't build cars anymore .I think the RTR mindset may have contributed to the increase in prices. You will have to admit the products We can purchase today are as a rule far superior to what was avail. in the early 70's. I agree things have gotten very expensive, so You have to decide what You need or want the most. Usually I buy things that I want & not always what I need for the layout, this isn't the best approach, but I'm guilty.
I would say in some ways --yes it is. Some of the increase is due to RTR and the demand for more accuracy in locomotives( ever cost out how much it costs to prototype the model before putting out a line?). But I'm also wondering about the old saw--prices go up to what the market can bear.
I just readjust my budgets--besides, I'm at the point that I might be able to get away from locos--seem to have a supply falling out'n the woodwork lately---heeheehee
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Having worked in the hobby shop business years ago, and understanding the pricing structure and distribution in this business I must repectfully disagree with the OP.
Adjusted for inflation, even with all these new better products, this hobby is cheaper now than ever before.
I will admit more people are able to build bigger layouts and are choosing to spend more money. But the combination of overseas production, higher product volumes and massive DISCOUNTING that never exsisted 25-30 years ago has kept this hobby as afordable as it ever was or more so.
Having said all that, I will admit it has NEVER been an inexpensive hobby, not if you build/buy/assemble anything of any size or complexity.
But, I have to spend the money on something, I surely don't want to leave it to the government or the evil children. The will shall read "Being of sound mind and body I spent it all".
Sheldon
blownout cylinder I just readjust my budgets--besides, I'm at the point that I might be able to get away from locos--seem to have a supply falling out'n the woodwork lately---heeheehee
Depends on where you shop..I went to a hobby shop yesterday and walked away with sticker stock..4 items $18.37 including tax..Whew! I will add the small items on my e tailer orders.Did I mention he did not have 2 other items I needed?
Last night I ordered a Atlas N Scale GP38-2 and a Intermountain Covered Hopper..Total cost including shipping $82.73..
In comparison buying from my not to local hobby shop(52 mile round trip).
Atlas GP38-2 $99.95
IM Covered Hopper $21.95
Total:$121.90
Difference.
$39.17..Plus State tax at 6.75%.
He would need to be special ordered the above items..
You decide which is the better deal for your hobby budget.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Funny, I just asked the question in the opposite direction. A Penn Line K4 Pacific kit that I have from 1957 cost $34.50 at the time...$250.00 today. I asked when, if ever, there was a turning point in modeling that made it more accessible.
Atlantic Central is right. Our hobby may not be cheap, but today you get a lot more for your money than ever before. Using and online inflation calculator I found some telling numbers:
In 1958 I bought a Penn Line PRR K4 kit for $34.50. It took many weeks of saving to accumulate that much money. Today's price equivalent is $264.10. Bowser's list price is $172.50. A pretty good deal and probably an improved kit,too. BTW, the Bowser line is discontinued, so if you want one, now is the time to buy.
In 1990 an Atlas GP-7 sold, at Ted's Engine House, for $74.95. That was a come-and-get-it closeout price. In 2009 dollars that is $130.19. M. B. Klein lists the Atlas GP-7 today at a retail price of $114.95. But their everyday discounted price is $74.99. Even better, it is currently on sale for $69.99. I bought two of them in 1990. I should've waited.
Finally, consider the enormous advances we have made since those Atlas engines were on Ted's shelf. DCC was unheard of. And speaking of unheard, sound for most of us was only a dream. Yes, PFM offered sound, but it was not widely used and certainly not close to today's offerings. You can add to the list of advances if you wish. Suffice to say, we are now in a golden age of the hobby, a time when you get more for your money than ever before.
BRAKIE Last night I ordered a Atlas N Scale GP38-2 and a Intermountain Covered Hopper..Total cost including shipping $82.73.. In comparison buying from my not to local hobby shop(52 mile round trip). Atlas GP38-2 $99.95 IM Covered Hopper $21.95 Total:$121.90
Just to add to this--2 expense lines that tend to be overlooked
1)--fuel charge--how much gas did you go through to drive 'X' miles--keep in mind not all LHS's are REALLY LHS's
2) Shipping/Handling-Very rarely is this taken into consideration when calculating final costs.
This is one of the reasons I use LHS near me--10 min. drive--to order stuff through Walthers--I pick it up at LHS--usually at $10-$16 LESS than getting it delivered right at home. Look between gas/time spent driving and S/H--I'm usually saving between $8-$15
BTW-another issue--for me--being in Canada--the limp wristed Canadian dollar--add 20% to my overall cost----
Hi!
I've been playing with trains since the mid-50s, starting with Marx and then Lionel O gauge trains. Today I collect postwar Lionel, but spend most of my time and money on HO - collection and layout.
Model Railroading is a somewhat unique hobby in that you can add to it (and use all the pieces) over a long period of time. Said another way, the track you bought 20 years ago can still be in use, as well as the cars and locos bought then too! And, you can have a small shelf layout, or a basement filled empire. Which leads to the fact that you can spend as much money as you want.
In the '60s and early '70s, I got a lot of Athearn car kits (most of which I still have) for anywhere from $1.98 to $3.98. You could get Athearn locos for $15-$20, and they were great (for that time period). Of course income was much less at that time, so even $2 took a bite out of disposable income.
Today's prices - for equivalent - pieces are certainly higher, but very proportionate to today's incomes. The big difference today - IMHO - is the huge availability of products and their pricerange. You do not have to buy BLI or Genesis locos to enjoy the hobby. You can buy Athearn (basic) or Tyco or other lower end "starter" pieces - and still get that thrill.
One additional comment on the subject....... Way back in the '60s/'70s, many MR like myself were very content with the Athearn or MDC equipment, for there was not much else out there that was "better" - except for "brass", which was way out of my pricerange. So, we were happy with what we had.
Today, the new MR is blown away by the huge range of MR stuff readily available, and many just don't want to start out with basic stuff, wanting the higher end equipment that they really can't afford. And of course this leads to three ends....... either the MR will "charge it", be unhappy with what he has, or lose interest in the hobby. '
Hey, FWIW...............
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
John,
You must have a sheltered life. Hobbies are expensive. If you think model railroading is high, take a look at restoring an old car or tractor! Or got out and buy a new boat!
IIRC, the MSRP on a code 100 #4 Shinohara turnout(in the orange wrapper) was something like $2.25 MSRP in 1968. Of course if you made over $3.00/hour back then, you were doing good. The fast rise in prices for HO trains has a lot to do with the manufacturing/dollar value now - But just because everything is avialable, does not mean you have to buy it. Also, the quality/features have grown over the years. Atlas diesels are amoung the best runners and ther was nothing in 1960 that was even close in running or detail(Hobbytown drives/brass diesels).
Another item is discounting - we usually paid MSRP back them(AHC would mail order discount, but you had no choice of road name). Your other discount option was when Woolworth's had their big AHM sale!
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I must disagree with the preceeding poster, in spite of his hobbyshop experience. If one actually researches and compares the pricing of items across a considerable interval, it is aparent that there was a dramatic upswing in pricing beginning in the 1990's unmatched in the hobby's history, one which has continued to date.
Model railroad equipment pricing lagged any supposed inflation figures from the late 1960's into the 80's (in spite of the fact that the CPI really has nothing to do with how items purchased with disposable income should be figured), a time when the hobby was more or less in the doldrums. So, for quite a span of years the hobby actually became cheaper relative to personal income.
This all ended with the first introductions of high-end and RTR locomotives in the 1990's, together with the discovery by the manufacturers that there were sufficient numbers of relatively well to do, newer hobbyists that were willing to spend big bucks on a regular basis for new high-end items. This opened the door for producing new models regularly, offering them at ever higher prices and only in ever more limited quantities. Likewise, the move to overseas production helped to further increase their profit margins. Slower selling, low priced kits (oldtimers never panic-bought or in volume and being craftsmen, they enjoy assembling cars, locomotives, et al. - RTR removes a big part of the hobby for them) that required stocking and long turnovers periods, weren't nearly as good for the manufacturers and so their availability has steadily diminished.
The arugment that increased detail and quality justifies the great increases in pricing we've seen is another canard. Quality and detail has ALWAYS increases with time (is a 1989 car the equal of a 2009 model?), it's called progressive advancement in technology. Of course, it may be taken beyond basic standards if the financial return justifies. It's also a reflection of pushing the pricing envelope as far as the market will allow.
The price of seriously participating in the hobby is rapidly aproaching a time where a major segment of hobbyists, particularly the senior faction that makes up more than half the hobby today, will be forced out. Many are already buying ever less in the way of new stuff. At the opposite end of the spectrum, few younger folks stand much of a chance of gaining a real foothold at the current prices unless they buy secondhand and the situation will only get worse with time. The day of locomotives (and all the other items) becoming "plastic brass" in price, is rapidly approaching.
CNJ831
Barry,
I will be the first to admit I know nothing about Canada, but here in the Mid Atlantic of the US, gasoline is about $2 a gallon right now. Ajusted for inflation, that is WAY cheaper (about 30% less) than the $0.30 is was in 1973 when I started driving to the hobby shop.
Even when it went above $3.00 here for a while, it's ajusted value was only slightly more than the late 60's or early 70's here. And my 1968 Checker Marathon got 20 mpg, and so does my new all wheel drive Ford Taurus - so I'm ahead.
And, lucky for me, my LHS is about 1200 yards away. And there is always TRAINWORLD bring packages rght to the door.
Now if we could only get taxes back down to 1973 levels, the world would be a great place.
As a member of that "older faction" that CNJ alludes to, I disagree, but then each of us have different circumstances. I retired at age 60, home paid for, good investments, and have been able to spend more on my hobby than when I was working. Right now I have a standing order for a 6 pack of the new InterMountain refrigerator cars on order, my inventory of cars and locos far exceed what "I need". I had my first train "Lionel Hudson" for my first Christmas at age 6 months and have had and bought and maintained trains all of my life since then. That Lionel Hudson still sits on a shelf over a fireplace in my basement/trainroom, safe and secure after I was offered a rather large cash sum of money for it during an open house. My dad was a railroad engineer, always wanted trains, lived his hobby and vocation through me.
Bob
CNJ831,
Is there anything in this life you are happy about? Fact is as layouts progress to near completion modelers buy less and the hobby costs less as they age, unless they didn't start until they where old.
My daddy taught me the price of anything is only determined by how bad I want it, and how bad the other guy wants to sell it. If that equation is in balance above the cost of production, products will be brought to market, if not, production will cease. Its that simple.
Different world view - I'm only entitled to what I can earn, if I want more trains, I need to earn more money. Fact is ajusted for inflation all this new better stuff is not more expensive than the older not as good stuff. economies go up and down, but over the long haul, the relative value of most things stays similar.
jwhittenI thought I was getting a deal at $12 bucks each. I see them advertised elsewhere online for $20+ and up. So they get here and I was looking through them and then notice the _original_ price... $1.29, from a _DRUG STORE_ no less !
$12 is very good deal. $1.29 from a drugstore? No way. Misprint.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL My daddy taught me the price of anything is only determined by how bad I want it, and how bad the other guy wants to sell it. If that equation is in balance above the cost of production, products will be brought to market, if not, production will cease. Its that simple.
The reality is prices will go to what the market will bear. I'm happy that most of the time I find what I'm looking for--at reasonable prices----
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And, lucky for me, my LHS is about 1200 yards away. And there is always TRAINWORLD bring packages rght to the door.
My closest LHS is about a 10 minute drive BUT on a nice sunny day I'll take that ~60 minute walk there. The scenery is good!!
jrbernierJohn, You must have a sheltered life. Hobbies are expensive. If you think model railroading is high, take a look at restoring an old car or tractor! Or got out and buy a new boat! IIRC, the MSRP on a code 100 #4 Shinohara turnout(in the orange wrapper) was something like $2.25 MSRP in 1968. Of course if you made over $3.00/hour back then, you were doing good.Jim
IIRC, the MSRP on a code 100 #4 Shinohara turnout(in the orange wrapper) was something like $2.25 MSRP in 1968. Of course if you made over $3.00/hour back then, you were doing good.
That's why I was looking for an old-timer's perspective- I was just a kid in the 60's.
And as for expensive hobbies, I have too many of those :)
I agree that the level of detail and performance has gone way up. And generally speaking I don't have a big problem spending some bucks for good-looking/running trains. But its really hard to cough up zillions of $$$ to buy ground foam (dyed ground-up foam rubber), lichen (dyed glycerin-preserved fungus) and similar stuff (though I also have to admit the results are _ really_ nice)
This post isn't so much a complaint as it is a wish that I could hit the lottery... :)
CNJ831I must disagree with the preceeding poster, in spite of his hobbyshop experience. If one actually researches and compares the pricing of items across a considerable interval, it is aparent that there was a dramatic upswing in pricing beginning in the 1990's unmatched in the hobby's history, one which has continued to date.CNJ831
Yeah, what he said! :)
That's my observation as well. Particularly since I've been gobbling up old issues of MR and studying them like there was gonna be a final exam. (Well, there sort-of will be I guess :) I have noticed that prices were pretty much steady and then WHAMO! big increase. For example, the price of 100 pieces of code 100 track from atlast was about $150-200 bucks in about 1999-2000. And now its double that. The engineering costs for Atlas code 100 track have been recouped many times over long ago and yet now the price has _doubled_ for the same item. The materials price has increased a little- 10-20% tops-- but not enough to justify doubling the price, except that there are people willing to plunk down the cash to pay it.
Generally, I've been doing pretty well. Keeping my eyes and ears open for good deals and snapping them up when I find them. I feel like _most_ of the stuff I acquire I get at a pretty good value, but rarely do I ever buy straight retail or from a LHS. Too expensive for me. It would be nice. I'd love to subsidize an LHS and go there and have a place to see things or talk to other people about the hobby, or even just find other people interested in the hobby period. But there's no way I can afford to bear the cost of full retail. An item or two here and there, sure no problem. But not for everything. I have to get stuff on the secondary market-- the big online flea market-- but even there prices have just kept going up and up and up. Its feels insane sometimes.
Where can you get a good price on BULK ballast, for example, or ties, or rail, or roadbed, or any of a half a dozen basic things? How can the cost of scooping up _rocks_ and washing them and bagging them have changed all that much in nearly 100 years? I just don't see it. Pure labor is really the only changing factor, the rest is _cheaper_ to do today since the advent of electricity and motors and stuff.
(My other vocation/avocations are Computers, Programming, Electronics and Automation/Robotics-- I have a very good understanding how automation and streamlined manufacturing can reduce costs)
John
My short answer is: no. As with all hobbies, the cost of model RR has gone up, but the bottom line is that, unlike most hobbies, MR can be scaled (so to speak) to fit most budgets by simply starting small and building gradually. That flexibility is much harder to get in many other hobbies, particularly those involving collections (stamps, coins) or major projects (car restorations, etc).
You can start in MR with the simple loop o' track with power, a locomotive and a couple of cars (and a place to set these up). Add some scenery here (this need not be expensive) and a building or two there and you're on your way.
You don't need DCC right there and then. You don't need the locos with all the bells and whistles, or the pre-weathered super-detailed boxcar. And even when you get to the point where you can get such items, the prices for some of these (e.g., starter DCC systems) are reasonable enough and easy to save for.
Juan
ATLANTIC CENTRAL CNJ831, Different world view - I'm only entitled to what I can earn, if I want more trains, I need to earn more money. Fact is ajusted for inflation all this new better stuff is not more expensive than the older not as good stuff. economies go up and down, but over the long haul, the relative value of most things stays similar. Sheldon
Sheldon, try looking up what the inflation factor is for items purchased with disposable income - NOT the CPI which has no relevance to the question, as well as the average salary increases experienced by American workers over the years - before making rash statements. The prices for just about all model railroading items is today decidedly higher than at any time in the hobby's post-war history.
No misprint. I bought 10 each #6 LH&RH, and 8 each #8 LH&RH as well as double-crossovers, double slip switches, etc-- many of them came in their original boxes. They were all in the same ballpark (don't know about the crossovers or slip switches, they didn't come in their original boxes). And most of them were originally bought at a drug store in Kentucky. Don't recall the name offhand, I can go downstairs and find out .
CNJ831,Surely you jest when you said: "senior faction that makes up more than half the hobby today, will be forced out." since that is farthest from the truth unless you are talking about those that wanted a excuse to quit the hobby then any excuse is better then done....The majority of us older modelers have enough we need not to buy anything and if we want it we will buy it..A lot of what you hear about retirement on TV is pure poppy ****...I live quite nicely on my pension and can still buy want I need or want..
I'll keep saying the same thing--if we keep buying the stuff at a higher and higher price---the market will keep going up.
In the meantime I'll be working on learning how to run my cnc milling machine a buddy of mine and yours truly picked up for a song---heeheehee---
I'm kinda in agreement with Jim Bernier,that compared to cars,guns,snowmobiles,boats etc, model railroading is cheap. I'd like to hear from some of the guys who do several of these, like cudaken and others. I used to be heavy into R/C planes. A couple guys I knew were pilots ,one even had an airplane repair business. When I asked em why they did models too, the answer was"relief form airplane part prices". Yeah some parts of MRing are kinda spendy,especially when you not prepared for the price ,nonetheless we continue on with our fascination with the miniatues. BILL
I was thinking about some of my other hobbies over the years:
Photography: I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars on cameras, film, and processing. I've had three great digital cameras, one of which cost $1000 alone. (Not to mention expenses getting to and from the places I've photographed).
Boating: I've spent way more on boats over the years than on model railroading, not to mention upkeep, licensing, fuel, etc.
Skiing: Don't do this any more. I like my knees the way they are just fine, thank you. Not only were the skis and lift tickets expensive, but also the cost of getting there, lodging when necessary and more.
Golf: I don't golf, but I do know its expensive.
Model railroading is a bargain, folks.
Then again--some people don't think ANYTHING is expensive---
1) they just aren't into it
2) money to burn----
This same discussion has been going on over at the Broadway Limited Imports forum on their web site.
I hesitate to get involved in it here, because I don't want to get into a flame war, but from my point of view, the hobby has, in fact, gotten way more expensive than when I got into it in the late 1970s.
In 1979, I had to agonize about whether or not to spend a few of the hard-earned dollars I made in my job sweeping floors at the local McDonald's on a $25 Atlas Seaboard Coast Line SD35 (I took the plunge and bought it). At the time, the Atlas "Yellow Box" locos were considered among the best, with true scale-width hoods and sharp details and paint, not to mention a great motor and drivetrain under the hood.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Inflation calculator, that same $25 would be worth almost $73 today. But Atlas' SD-35 (with a few more details, but NOT including DCC or sound) costs $135 -- nearly twice as much in inflation-adjusted dollars as it did in 1979. If you put a body shell of today's Atlas SD35 next to the one from my 1979 model, you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference -- in fact, I'd bet the basic tooling of the model hasn't changed. Atlas has slapped on a few more details, put a DCC-ready socket on it, and almost doubled the price in relative dollars. Based on that, it seems hard to argue that prices have held steady, much less declined.
Without going into a lot of detail about my personal finances, let's just say that I hit my peak in earnings (in today's dollars) in 1997. Since then, I gained ground in only two years, and today, I'm earning slightly more than a third of what I did then, because I can no longer find work in the field I earned a college degree in, so I'm working an unskilled job. It's easy to say "If I want more trains I need to earn more money," but that ignores the extremely difficult job market (700 applicants for a school janitor's job in Ohio) and the "Wal-Mart-ization" of wages and benefits in today's economic climate.
I'm managing my MR budget by buying as much as I can at train shows, from the online yard sale site mentioned elsewhere, and -- when I can find a bargain on something I need -- from eBay.
Yes, we've come a long way. There's much more available for Seaboard, Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Coast Line (the roads I model, with an emphasis on SCL) than there was in 1979, the detailing has gotten better (with many models even being made in several versions with road-specific details for each paint job), and we have DCC, sound, and all kinds of nifty new technology enabling the production of ever more accurate models. None of which does me a bit of good if one locomotive blows my model railroading budget for the entire year.
Bill
blownout cylinder BRAKIE Last night I ordered a Atlas N Scale GP38-2 and a Intermountain Covered Hopper..Total cost including shipping $82.73.. In comparison buying from my not to local hobby shop(52 mile round trip). Atlas GP38-2 $99.95 IM Covered Hopper $21.95 Total:$121.90 Just to add to this--2 expense lines that tend to be overlooked 1)--fuel charge--how much gas did you go through to drive 'X' miles--keep in mind not all LHS's are REALLY LHS's 2) Shipping/Handling-Very rarely is this taken into consideration when calculating final costs. This is one of the reasons I use LHS near me--10 min. drive--to order stuff through Walthers--I pick it up at LHS--usually at $10-$16 LESS than getting it delivered right at home. Look between gas/time spent driving and S/H--I'm usually saving between $8-$15 BTW-another issue--for me--being in Canada--the limp wristed Canadian dollar--add 20% to my overall cost----
Berry,Let me enlighten you on how this can work--don't know about Canada tho'.
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That will depend-the closest about 3 gallons of gas including city driving..
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Most interesting and depends on what the e-tailer offers.
My grand total is $82.73 and includes $6.25 shipping-USPS Priority.
That's about what the gas would cost me for that 52 mile round trip at the current gas prices.
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The majority of the on line shops I deal with gives a option on shipping by UPS or USPS...I use the cheapest route some times its USPS and other times its UPS.Oddly both will get here 48 hours after its been shipped.