Eddie_walters andrechapelonIn order to vote, you've got to have something to vote for. How do we know there's no profit in making a loco kit? No one's making them the way they do in the rest of the world using etched brass (or nickel silver) and white metal. The technology of steam locomotive kit building has changed drastically elsewhere, but our last locomotive kit supplier is still doing it the way it was done when I was approaching puberty during the second Eisenhower administration. Kits in and of themselves aren't obsolete, it's the technology used to create them. Bingo! Even as a Pennsy modeler, the Bowser models aren't that great - they have some fairly serious accuracy issues, and the hamburger sized rivets on many of the models don't do them any favors! The runs of kits in some other markets are limited to around 50 examples, so the market can be a LOT smaller to justify producing a kit. The tradeoff is, of course, that kits are usually more expensive, but the result is FAR superior to what can be done with a Bowser kit. Incidentally, the price of DJH kits was mentioned - they are among the most expensive... among the best kits are by Martin Finney, and for a loco+tender+wheels+can motor/gearbox, you're looking at around $280 or so at current exchange rates. That compares with about $230 for a Bowser "deluxe" kit with a Helix Humper can motor set... the Finney kit will be at least the quality of good brass when built right, the Bowser would struggle to match RTR.
andrechapelonIn order to vote, you've got to have something to vote for. How do we know there's no profit in making a loco kit? No one's making them the way they do in the rest of the world using etched brass (or nickel silver) and white metal. The technology of steam locomotive kit building has changed drastically elsewhere, but our last locomotive kit supplier is still doing it the way it was done when I was approaching puberty during the second Eisenhower administration. Kits in and of themselves aren't obsolete, it's the technology used to create them.
Bingo!
Even as a Pennsy modeler, the Bowser models aren't that great - they have some fairly serious accuracy issues, and the hamburger sized rivets on many of the models don't do them any favors! The runs of kits in some other markets are limited to around 50 examples, so the market can be a LOT smaller to justify producing a kit. The tradeoff is, of course, that kits are usually more expensive, but the result is FAR superior to what can be done with a Bowser kit. Incidentally, the price of DJH kits was mentioned - they are among the most expensive... among the best kits are by Martin Finney, and for a loco+tender+wheels+can motor/gearbox, you're looking at around $280 or so at current exchange rates. That compares with about $230 for a Bowser "deluxe" kit with a Helix Humper can motor set... the Finney kit will be at least the quality of good brass when built right, the Bowser would struggle to match RTR.
And for $321.66 US plus shipping, I can get a model of an NZGR Ja 4-8-2, a locomotive class I rode behind 40 years ago when they were still in service. As I said earlier, it's mind boggling that a country with more sheep than people can support a kit manufacturer and we can't. Not only that, the kit is manufactured with current technology.
It's enough to make one cry.
Andre
andrechapelonAnd for $321.66 US plus shipping, I can get a model of an NZGR Ja 4-8-2, a locomotive class I rode behind 40 years ago when they were still in service. As I said earlier, it's mind boggling that a country with more sheep than people can support a kit manufacturer and we can't. Not only that, the kit is manufactured with current technology. It's enough to make one cry.
It shouldn't be.
How many companies like Digitrax does NZ have? Like Soundtraxx? Like B.T.S. Models? Basement manufacturers making resin kits of everything from mill stands for steel mills to steam loco stacks?
There's plenty to keep a modeler satisfied in this hobby, and there are still hundreds if not thousands of bowser kits on the shelves of hobby shops all over the country. There are probably still hundreds on the shelves in bowser's warehouse. The sky is not falling.
andrechapelon And for $321.66 US plus shipping, I can get a model of an NZGR Ja 4-8-2, a locomotive class I rode behind 40 years ago when they were still in service. As I said earlier, it's mind boggling that a country with more sheep than people can support a kit manufacturer and we can't. Not only that, the kit is manufactured with current technology.
They do it differently? We're looking for the quarterly report type of thing while they tend toward building product people want---they think building stuff = self satisfaction while we think RTR = self satisfaction.There are mfg's that do RTR in EU but there isn't the demand as here---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Folks:
First of all, I want to apologize for a little bit of name-calling indulged in my first post. I had just gotten the email from Bowser and was P. O. 'ed. Would have been better to avoid words such as "slob" at that point. Also "semprini".
Milepost 266.2 There's plenty to keep a modeler satisfied in this hobby, and there are still hundreds if not thousands of bowser kits on the shelves of hobby shops all over the country. There are probably still hundreds on the shelves in bowser's warehouse. The sky is not falling.
Yes...but now there's just that much less, and it happens to be the last of the US kitmakers, and the last US producer of HO steam. And that SUCKS. There are so many more I wanted to try, and then tell other people about so they could try them too.
This is the sort of "Ultimate Fail" that would result from Chuck Norris embracing nonviolence.
Pure unadulterated semprini --
I didn't find this to be "new" or surprising. I seem to remember a conversation on a thread about a year ago where it was mentioned the machined parts were getting too expensive. The conclusion of that thread was if one wanted a Bowser kit they should get it soon. Apparently I didn't act soon enough!
What I do find surprising is that seeing this announcement, I went out and checked out Bear Locomotive (the company that purchased Hobby Town tooling). It seems they are gone too. Now where am I going to get my Bearmetal for weighting freight cars!
"The Grass is Greener"... in Britain, there are essentially two camps in modeling - the RTR crowd and the finescale crowd. This is essentially because the RTR models are to OO gauge, which is a poor scale/gauge combination, and the finescale modelers model in either EM or P4, where the track is either close to scale or precisely to scale. RTR sector is pretty large, with Bachmann's UK business competing with Hornby. Both have large ranges of models, of varying quality - some are very accurate, others leave something to be desired! 15 years or so ago, the finescale guys wouldn't really look at RTR, as the work required to convert them to the wider gauge wasn't really worth it, however now conversions are more common, due to the improvements in quality.
The finescale market has a wide range of etched brass kits, some better than others... and from what I can see there's no reason that such kits couldn't be made in the US of US prototypes. An interesting aside is that the cast whitemetal kits that were prevalent in the UK 30-40 years ago have almost completely disappeared. A bit like Bowser's kits!
So, I am certainly not a kit hater. I just want GOOD kits!
If this is a hobby for fun, and thousands of people participate, why is it there is only one way to do it "right"? Cannot RTR people and kit people co-exist? Most do, but I find it interesting that there are always a few that if it is not the way they do things, others are always so wrong. If the kits are in danger then it's the other guys fault because he doesn't want to spend, in effect, more money on a particular kit to make it as well detailed and as good running as a RTR (in some cases). "It's MODEL Railroading" they say. It's gardening also, does that mean you can't buy plant sets? Just seeds or your not gardening? Or if you do not have the patience, talent or time to construct a kit you are not worthy of being in this hobby like I am. If that is not the intended message, maybe you should re-read some of your posts. This is the Wal-mart is the destruction of the Mom and Pop business arguement. People, if we did not patronize Wal-mart they would not be as big as they are. Fact. They couldn't be with no customers. Fact. Low prices out the window. You can't have both sides of the arguement. WE made Wal-Mart what it is and that is a fact. Same goes for the loco kits. (back on topic) If the majority of people want RTR for WHATEVER reason then that is the way the market goes. The manufacturers can't continue making stuff that doesn't sell well enough to make them money. If you were in the manufacturers seat you would continue building kits and loosing money for they sake of a few? I doubt it. It is too bad that we all can't have our piece of the pie and enjoy it the way we want it. But that's life. I have the utmost respect for those who kit build their locos. I hope to gain the confidence to attempt it myself. I hope I have the chance. When done well, they are an awesome sight to behold and I will continue to strive to accomplish that very thing. But beware. The scratch builders haven't raised up to say "you whiners, who needs a kit!"
Just my
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
TMarshThe manufacturers can't continue making stuff that doesn't sell well enough to make them money. If you were in the manufacturers seat you would continue building kits and loosing money for they sake of a few?
I think that an arguement can be made that, yes, if you make a product that goes together well you will get the business---other areas proved it can be done. The model used frequently went that you provide excellent customer service, product that was good quality at a reasonable price that you could establish repeat business and you GREW the business through investment in R&D and constant reaching and testing of new markets---you didn't rest on your profit margins and winnow various market sectors out of existence. The way that that could be done, if it needed to be done, was through spinning it off to someone who could make a go of it on a smaller scale---If NZ and a few much smaller countries still have markets---in smaller form mind---surely there is some space somewhere in this populous continent for a home built kit market!!!
But Andre, as I was saying earlier, there's just no real comparison between the two. The small size of NZ actually helps you as it focuses the interest on what I assume is a relatively smaller number of loco prototypes.
Meanwhile, the US market is fragmented to the Nth degree. Take Massachusetts for example. We have around 6.5 million residents, in about 10,000 sq. mi. (NZ is 4.3 million in 100,000 sq. mi. from Wiki).
For steam RR's in the 20th Century, there's the New Haven, the Boston & Maine, the Boston & Albany/NYC, and the Central Vermont. That's 4 Class I's in one small state (nationwide, there were 139 Class I's in 1939), and each road had an impressive roster of steam power that was unique to each road. The NH alone had 23 different engine class letters, and each class usually had several types under that (the I-1's were light Pacifics but the I-4's were heavy Pacifics).
For comparison's sake, how many NZ RR's were there? And how many NZ steam engines classes were there for how many engines? My assumption is that there were less NZ locos than Mass. ones...and that's just one of 50 States.
All those photo links you posted? I have no interest in any of them. The closest any of them came to my town is some 400 miles (the B&O), while the others are more like 1000 miles away. That's not exactly next door.
Sheldon,Thanks.Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
blownout cylinder TMarshThe manufacturers can't continue making stuff that doesn't sell well enough to make them money. If you were in the manufacturers seat you would continue building kits and loosing money for they sake of a few? I think that an arguement can be made that, yes, if you make a product that goes together well you will get the business---other areas proved it can be done. The model used frequently went that you provide excellent customer service, product that was good quality at a reasonable price that you could establish repeat business and you GREW the business through investment in R&D and constant reaching and testing of new markets---you didn't rest on your profit margins and winnow various market sectors out of existence. The way that that could be done, if it needed to be done, was through spinning it off to someone who could make a go of it on a smaller scale---If NZ and a few much smaller countries still have markets---in smaller form mind---surely there is some space somewhere in this populous continent for a home built kit market!!!
Oh yes most definately. And I'd hope there would be. I would truly like to see everyone have their wants and desires filled. After all what do we turn to if this no longer becomes enjoyable. Maybe the molds will be purchased, and or maybe put out in limited runs so that everyone can be happy.
Paul3Meanwhile, the US market is fragmented to the Nth degree. Take Massachusetts for example. We have around 6.5 million residents, in about 10,000 sq. mi. (NZ is 4.3 million in 100,000 sq. mi. from Wiki).
And your country is so fragmented it cannot maintain one single solitary lonely petunia kit manufacturer anywhere within its borders???
Come now--that is equine plumage!!.I'm getting silly here LOL!!!
I'm just thinking here--we here in Canada technically have two major RR's and we don't even have a solid market for kits--leaving Sylvan out--not sure what they've got at present. Never mind that issue---do you mean to tell me that your country had so many radically different locos in so many radically different RR's that there is no way to put them out to a mass market?
I'll suggest something here--profit comes first. No longer does anyone actually build a market we just let it fall into our laps---something Bowser done when they stopped building upon that market by not doing the retooling and improving their product lines-----GGGRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!
Milepost 266.2 andrechapelonAnd for $321.66 US plus shipping, I can get a model of an NZGR Ja 4-8-2, a locomotive class I rode behind 40 years ago when they were still in service. As I said earlier, it's mind boggling that a country with more sheep than people can support a kit manufacturer and we can't. Not only that, the kit is manufactured with current technology. It's enough to make one cry. It shouldn't be. How many companies like Digitrax does NZ have? Like Soundtraxx? Like B.T.S. Models? Basement manufacturers making resin kits of everything from mill stands for steel mills to steam loco stacks? There's plenty to keep a modeler satisfied in this hobby, and there are still hundreds if not thousands of bowser kits on the shelves of hobby shops all over the country. There are probably still hundreds on the shelves in bowser's warehouse. The sky is not falling.
Who said it was? As someone else pointed out (and as I have too), there were problems with the accuracy of Bowser models. I don't so much lament the loss of the kits as the loss of the chassis components. The kits were in crying need of a major overhaul, not to mention a greater variety of prototype.
No, what chaps my hide is that in an environment where rapid change and better prototype fidelity is the sine qua non of success, Bowser chose the "Model T and only in black" route. It's as if Athearn were stuck in the 1950's making the rubber band drive F7 (with some minor incremental improvements).
As for your denigration of New Zealand, it's beside the point. They're doing quite well manufacturing for an admittedly small domestic market not to mention having a company that manufacturers Sn3 locomotive kits for (mostly) American prototypes. There are 75 Americans to every New Zealander. You'd think a niche company in this country which manufactured low volume kits of locomotives the BLI's and MTH's won't touch could be successful.
TMarsh If this is a hobby for fun, and thousands of people participate, why is it there is only one way to do it "right"? Cannot RTR people and kit people co-exist? Most do, but I find it interesting that there are always a few that if it is not the way they do things, others are always so wrong. If the kits are in danger then it's the other guys fault because he doesn't want to spend, in effect, more money on a particular kit to make it as well detailed and as good running as a RTR (in some cases).
If this is a hobby for fun, and thousands of people participate, why is it there is only one way to do it "right"? Cannot RTR people and kit people co-exist? Most do, but I find it interesting that there are always a few that if it is not the way they do things, others are always so wrong. If the kits are in danger then it's the other guys fault because he doesn't want to spend, in effect, more money on a particular kit to make it as well detailed and as good running as a RTR (in some cases).
TM:
Kind of hard for the two to coexist when there aren't any kits, don't you think?
Don't you think there is another alternative situation - in which something that was actually really awesome was lost because too many people didn't realize just how cool it was? Let's call it the "Big Yellow Taxi" scenario.
Maybe it would help if we compared apples to apples:
The upper model is a Bowser K4, built from the ~$150.00 deluxe kit.
The lower model is a BLI K4, imported from China, costing $300.
Not too different, are they? Of course there are some variations in pipe-routing and so forth, all of which can be easily accomodated to any prototype, if you're the kit builder. And where's those alleged hamburger rivets somebody mentioned? I'll gladly pay him Tuesday to point them out today.
And in exchange for saving half the price, you get hours of fun, and a feeling of pride you will never get from opening a box. And I don't care who says it makes me elitist to say so. I'm having fun being called elitist for a change. It's kind of amusing in its incongruity.
Now do you see why some of us are losing our crownsheets over this?
blownout cylinder andrechapelon And for $321.66 US plus shipping, I can get a model of an NZGR Ja 4-8-2, a locomotive class I rode behind 40 years ago when they were still in service. As I said earlier, it's mind boggling that a country with more sheep than people can support a kit manufacturer and we can't. Not only that, the kit is manufactured with current technology. They do it differently? We're looking for the quarterly report type of thing while they tend toward building product people want---they think building stuff = self satisfaction while we think RTR = self satisfaction.There are mfg's that do RTR in EU but there isn't the demand as here---
HUH? Maerklin, Fleischmann, Roco, Jouef, et. al., are all RTR. Always have been. The kitbuilders have been the Brits primarily.
orsonroy Want a high-quality USRA light 2-8-2? Bowser's is on the BOTTOM of the list of the six models available. In terms of prototype accuracy (even with all of the bells & whistles added) the IHC POS is more accurate. How about Bowser's "USRA" 2-10-2? Ugh; who designed that abomination? In ALL cases where there's competition for a Bowser steam engine model the competition wins. I wonder if Bowser would be shutting down today if 15 years ago they remade their steam kit line in line with the likes of DJH. I drool over those engine models, even if they ARE foreign road prototypes, and will definitely build a couple in the near future. Bowser engines haven't gotten me as excited in 20 years...
Want a high-quality USRA light 2-8-2? Bowser's is on the BOTTOM of the list of the six models available. In terms of prototype accuracy (even with all of the bells & whistles added) the IHC POS is more accurate. How about Bowser's "USRA" 2-10-2? Ugh; who designed that abomination? In ALL cases where there's competition for a Bowser steam engine model the competition wins.
I wonder if Bowser would be shutting down today if 15 years ago they remade their steam kit line in line with the likes of DJH. I drool over those engine models, even if they ARE foreign road prototypes, and will definitely build a couple in the near future. Bowser engines haven't gotten me as excited in 20 years...
Good to hear from you again, Ray. Long time, no see. Too bad it took this news to smoke you out.
I'm curious about a couple of things:
I suppose we should have seen the writing on the wall three years ago, when Bowser announced a special deal--you could buy a kit for half price. Their goal was to get more people to try their kits. While I enjoy building steam kits, filing gets a little old, and the end product neither looks as good or runs as good as a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0.
Gary
Er, uh, by the time you add DCC and sound to the Bowser, you've pretty much ended any price advantage the Bowser might have initially had. The only real advantage then (other than the fun of building it yourself), is that you can spread the total cost out rather than having to pay the full $300 or so up front. In any case, the only reason the Bowser price is that low is they're using tooling that was old when I still had some color in my hair (yeah, I still got hair).
I've built several locomotive kits. I'd like to build more. However, I don't want Pennsy. I don't have anything against Pennsy, it's just not for me. Come to think of it, Pennsy is not for a lot of people. We want something else.
andrechapelon The upper model is a Bowser K4, built from the ~$150.00 deluxe kit. The lower model is a BLI K4, imported from China, costing $300. Not too different, are they? Of course there are some variations in pipe-routing and so forth, all of which can be easily accomodated to any prototype, if you're the kit builder. And where's those alleged hamburger rivets somebody mentioned? I'll gladly pay him Tuesday to point them out today. And in exchange for saving half the price, you get hours of fun, and a feeling of pride you will never get from opening a box. And I don't care who says it makes me elitist to say so. I'm having fun being called elitist for a change. It's kind of amusing in its incongruity. Now do you see why some of us are losing our crownsheets over this? Er, uh, by the time you add DCC and sound to the Bowser, you've pretty much ended any price advantage the Bowser might have initially had. The only real advantage then (other than the fun of building it yourself), is that you can spread the total cost out rather than having to pay the full $300 or so up front. In any case, the only reason the Bowser price is that low is they're using tooling that was old when I still had some color in my hair (yeah, I still got hair). I've built several locomotive kits. I'd like to build more. However, I don't want Pennsy. I don't have anything against Pennsy, it's just not for me. Come to think of it, Pennsy is not for a lot of people. We want something else.
A:
Eh, the PRR is the PRR. Love it or hate it, I guess. Been that way for years. A lot of people do love it.
The DCC is a good point. Perhaps Bowser should have offered DCC versions. Toss a sound decoder in the box, up the price $100. Still less than BLI. I run my little railroad on DC, and I don't use sound -- I've heard sound, and it's neat, but for me it's a neat effect, if you understand what I mean, not a realism enhancer. It just doesn't match the music you hear in your imagination, after seeing a real steamer run - I haven't seen many - and there's none of that wonderful smoke, steam, cinders, and heat that makes steamers seem almost alive. The same goes for diesel sound, but to a lesser degree. I do like the horns and whistles.
But I was addressing the comments made about crude detail and "hamburger rivets". You must admit that the Bowser and BLI K4 aren't so far apart!
Paul3 But Andre, as I was saying earlier, there's just no real comparison between the two. The small size of NZ actually helps you as it focuses the interest on what I assume is a relatively smaller number of loco prototypes. Meanwhile, the US market is fragmented to the Nth degree. Take Massachusetts for example. We have around 6.5 million residents, in about 10,000 sq. mi. (NZ is 4.3 million in 100,000 sq. mi. from Wiki). For steam RR's in the 20th Century, there's the New Haven, the Boston & Maine, the Boston & Albany/NYC, and the Central Vermont. That's 4 Class I's in one small state (nationwide, there were 139 Class I's in 1939), and each road had an impressive roster of steam power that was unique to each road. The NH alone had 23 different engine class letters, and each class usually had several types under that (the I-1's were light Pacifics but the I-4's were heavy Pacifics). For comparison's sake, how many NZ RR's were there? And how many NZ steam engines classes were there for how many engines? My assumption is that there were less NZ locos than Mass. ones...and that's just one of 50 States. All those photo links you posted? I have no interest in any of them. The closest any of them came to my town is some 400 miles (the B&O), while the others are more like 1000 miles away. That's not exactly next door. Sheldon,Thanks.Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Yeah, New Zealand had a nationalized rail system with a relatively small number of different engine classes. So what? However, as an individual railway, it's got about 2500 miles of trackage. That's probably about as big as the New Haven was, so the comparison should be how many engine classes did the NZGR have vs. the NH? How many New Haven modelers are there vs. New Zealand modelers (some of whom favor "bush tramways" and even foreigh prototypes)? BTW, as small as NZ is, there are 3 different scales in use, although S scale predominates.
It would appear that there were at least as many NZ steam classes as New Haven ( http://www.trainweb.org/nzsteam/classes.htm ).
As for railroads in a given area, what's your point? California had a population of 10,000,000 in 1950 and there were 4 class 1's (5, if you count the GN extension to Bieber). The one with the greatest in state mileage was the SP. California's current population is about the same as Canada. Even then, California wouldn't be the only state where SP fans reside. You'd have to include Oregon, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and Louisiana.
I have no more interest in the New Haven than you have in the railroads whose photos I posted. However, I think you make too big a deal about steam locomotive appearances. In HO scale, a model of an SP P-4 Paciric and a New Haven I-4 Pacific could use the same mechanism allowing for the outward differences in appearance and the use of different appliances.
These are both USRA engines. Quite a bit of difference in appearance given they're essentially the same engine.
http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//june99/06-18-99/lxn415.jpg
http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//march99/03-29-99/nh3341.jpg
The only real difference is the details.
andrechapelon blownout cylinder andrechapelon And for $321.66 US plus shipping, I can get a model of an NZGR Ja 4-8-2, a locomotive class I rode behind 40 years ago when they were still in service. As I said earlier, it's mind boggling that a country with more sheep than people can support a kit manufacturer and we can't. Not only that, the kit is manufactured with current technology. They do it differently? We're looking for the quarterly report type of thing while they tend toward building product people want---they think building stuff = self satisfaction while we think RTR = self satisfaction.There are mfg's that do RTR in EU but there isn't the demand as here--- HUH? Maerklin, Fleischmann, Roco, Jouef, et. al., are all RTR. Always have been. The kitbuilders have been the Brits primarily. Andre
I think I miswrote that--the point I was making was that Germany's mfg's were more RTR in the first place ----- the problem was they did not expand that market into kits. The Brits were primarily kit builders---that I agree with, and that with a fragmented RR system yet--
As well though, the RTR market has a very high price point and so the manufacturers have not done all that well----
A few simple points for everyone:
Comparing list prices is not valid - Boswer prices are seldom discounted by any large margin, Bachmann, Broadway and other RTR are.
Comparing sound/DCC loco prices to Bowser prices is not valid, period.
Comparing Bowser kits OR modern RTR to brass is apples to oranges to pears. I have never been impressed with brass as good value. Again I'm with Paul, I only put up with it when there is no other choice. For me thats ony two pieces in 40 years.
I actually didn't model steam much until all these new RTR locos came along. Kits lacked detail and where expensive to detail (but not hard to build in my mind).
Brass didn't run great out of the box in the old days and was/is way too expensive. I have a very comfortable income/net worth, but I don't drive $70,000 cars and I won't spend $1,200, or even $600, on a single model train.
That K4 picture comparison, The Boswer lacks what I feel is the single most tell tail detail - NO BRAKE SHOES -and if you have ever built any die cast kits, you know how hard it is to add that detail.
Andre, lot of people are taking the drives out from under these RTR locos and "kit building" with them.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL That K4 picture comparison, The Boswer lacks what I feel is the single most tell tail detail - NO BRAKE SHOES -and if you have ever built any die cast kits, you know how hard it is to add that detail.
In this case mix n match the material then---you don't NEED to put brake shoes on using the SAME MATERIAL----
Of course the details are important but come on-------
Barry,
Of course you mix and match materials, and there are nice plastic brake shoes on the market, the problem is lack of space on many models and/or lack of suitable mounting which then also has to be fabricated. This is a case by case deal, each diecast kit over the years has been different.
Just my opinion, but this is the one visual item that sets the new RTR and brass above all the old die cast locos. To me, completeness is more important than inch by inch accuracy. Without brake shoes a steam loco looks incomplete.
Good to hear from you again, Ray. Long time, no see. Too bad it took this news to smoke you out. I'm curious about a couple of things: How would you rank the 2-8-2s? As you've pointed out in the past, why is Bowser the only maker who produced a K-11? Weren't there hundreds of them? 5 years ago, would it have feasible to remake their steam kit line in line with the likes of DJH?
How would you rank the 2-8-2s?
As you've pointed out in the past, why is Bowser the only maker who produced a K-11? Weren't there hundreds of them?
5 years ago, would it have feasible to remake their steam kit line in line with the likes of DJH?
Hi Gary,
I've been mostly oput of touch for a while, bsy raising a family and getting some modeling done. I've breezed through the forum once in a while, but rarely have time to post!
Anyway, on to your questions!
1) I've had firsthand experience with NINE different USRA light Mike models over the past ten years (ten if you include Mantua/Cary hybrids), and would rank them as follows:
The problem with the Bowser USRA light Mike is that it ISN'T a USRA light Mike. It's not even a model of anyone's clone of a USRA light Mike. The tender is wrong, the valve gear is wrong, the cab is wrong, and the domes are horrible. That's a pretty extensive list of major faults. Is it a nice kit to build? Yep. Can it be turned into a good looking and good performing model? Yep. But don't call it a USRA anything, 'cause it's not. It's a freelanced engine, which is rarely what this hobby is looking for these days.
Oh; Add to the above list three "bargain brass" models that came out in the 1980s and 1990s. They're still very available on Ebay, and are better that ALL of the above "plastic" engines unless you "need" DCC and/or sound. They also usually price less than modern offerings:
My Mike fleet is mostly BLI and Oriental these days, with at least one example of each of the others in there somewhere. Can you tell that I'm a USRA light Mike fan?
2) Why has no one besides Bowser made a K-11? Beats the heck out of me. The industry powers-who-be are all essentially fools who slavishly follow the mantra of "If it's not USRA or huge it won't sell." Bachmann is the ONLY company who is supporting small steam, and they're probably leading the pack in terms of units sold by a GIGANTIC margin. Their now-iconic 2-8-0 is a testament to quality small steam, and should show the rest of the manufacturers how to properly do things. Get away from the 4-8-8-8-8-8-4s and USRA anything, and produce smaller, more common, and much more average layout friendly steam! BLI has disproven the notion that steam MUST be generic or "popular" to sell well; now it's up to all of the others to be a little creative with their thinking. How about some Harriman stuff? More 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s? Hmm...how about a NYC H-5? 17 different roads owned THEM, so why have they only been done in brass...twice?
3) Could Bowser have remade itself? Well, SOMEONE could have broken the US steam kit mold and come out with a line of DJH-comparable steam kits, but I'm not so sure Bowser could have pulled it off. They would have had the best shot at it, but with this recent announcement from them it seems pretty clear to me that they don't have a good handle on the hobby trends.
Look at their plastic freight cars for example. They should be "the champion of the SPFs" given the huge number of Pennsy prototype freight cars in their lineup. But what to I hear from Pennsy fans? That they ALWAYS screw up the execution of the cars, usually in a major way. We're not talking about missing rivets here, we're talking wrong car color (burgundy instead of oxide?!?), wrong lettering, wrong numbers, and BAD lettering overall.
I think they misread the steam market as well. There are quite a few of us kit builders and kit bashers out here. Most of us would LOVE to get our hands on a MODERN American-prototype steam kit of DJH quality. BTS can do it for S scale, so why can't Bowser? (have you SEEN a BTS kit? They're beautiful things to behold, and almost made me switch scales!). Now, it may not really be their fault. I have no idea what their revenues are, so they may not have been able to AFFORD starting a whole new steam line. But to keep the same old tired 65-year-old engine kits in production into almost 2010 is a certain recipie for failure.
Don't hold your breath concerning "someone" buying Bowser's steam line. Not gonna happen unless Lee English retires or dies, and the entire company goes up for sale. Besides, who would really WANT it? Notice that Model Power's not doing a whole lot with their acquisition of Mantua, and they've had that line for a decade. There's no market out there...for OLD, TIRED steam kits.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
Autobus Prime TM: Kind of hard for the two to coexist when there aren't any kits, don't you think? Don't you think there is another alternative situation - in which something that was actually really awesome was lost because too many people didn't realize just how cool it was?
Don't you think there is another alternative situation - in which something that was actually really awesome was lost because too many people didn't realize just how cool it was?
The way I made it sound, yes you are correct. As I re-read my post I see I have basically said “you won’t be able to have it your way because most want it this way.” I apologize, that is not the correct attitude to take. I can see and understand both views as to kits and RTR’s. So instead of trying to justify why a company is not producing kits maybe I should be looking at what would get them to keep making kits as you have rightly suggested. The only answer I see the manufacturers will accept is more kits sold. If people quit buying and they loose money then they quit making Right? So what can be done to make the consumer buy the product other than just lower the price. I’m not sure some of these companies are looking at it this way. Or if they are it is too late in their financial history.
I do know what you mean. There are an increasing amount of ready built structures showing up at my LHS and a few months ago I was in there when a customer was buying a pre built and he made the comment that for the price difference he almost couldn’t justify the time to build the kit and it was already detailed. I had the exact same thought go through my head. “But why? Isn’t part of the fun building?”
In todays world, I feel, kits are looked at more and more as a way of saving money and the product is expected to be somewhat inferior. Not always, but often. Take the furniture market. The kit furniture is cheaper, but is generally of lesser quality than a good piece of manufactured furniture. It may be good and solid and last for years, but it is excepted to be of less quality. This has apparently transferred to the MRR arena. People are faced with a choice and the manufactures (some) have played into the feeling that if you by a kit you are paying less and therefore expect to get less and except it. Even though you are already getting less by assembling it yourself. Excluding that unfortunately with everyones busy schedules, sitting down for hours at a time and days on end, it doesn’t fit with jobs and families and the end result of the MRR completion.(if there is such a thing). And that some people are impatient, myself included. They want it done and they want to run. They, myself included, are willing to sacrifice certain things just to get it done. While laying track, the LHS didn’t have enough #6 and 8 turnouts so I settled for a #4 just to get the track laid on the time schedule I set for myself. Then I found out that my rolling stock with triple axle trucks had a tough time negotiating the turnout because the truck wanted to ride out of the tracks because it was too sharp of a turn. Impatience cost me. Sorry strayed from the subject. Back to my thought. If the manufacturers would improve the detail of the kits, and update things, would you be willing to pay a higher price? I’m talking significantly higher. Not much lower than RTR. In the example of the $150 to $300 comparison. Say $200 to $250 for the kit? With much more refinement of course. I’m thinking that many of you would. That is not meant as a snide remark but as a possibility. Most of the time when it comes to the higher priced kits or more complicated (read detailed), it isn’t the price savings that is sought. It’s the enjoyment of the craft. Maybe if the manufacturers found that a significant number of people would purchase kits, IF they where improved on, they may rethink their position? A kit could save a manufacture a lot of money and they could conceivably cover more versions by including the parts to individualize the loco much cheaper than the RTR’s having to produce them as individuals. AND the kit could be very well detailed . Much more so than a ready to run of the same detail, because that amount of detail would widen the gap on the RTR side. This would broaden the market for that model. They could include many different parts that would make the loco fit with several railroads as opposed to just one, for example. This of course would contribute to the cost, but it would appeal to a larger audience. It’s tuff to justify having to purchase a large amount of parts to bring a kit to the level of a RTR and still have to make it fit your RR unless you truly just love to build kits. And there is nothing wrong with that it just adds another nail in the coffin of a struggling side of the hobby. Maybe the manufacturers need to here this stuff instead of leaving it up to them to figure it out. Just a thought.
We are talking steam and I model modern, but I can see it working for the “motorized boxcars” as I saw them referred to (and got a chuckle out of). I would however hate to loose the pleasure of seeing these kit steam locos that are so impressively put together by these talented people, It would be a shame to watch the kit Steam engines go the way of their prototypes.
O.R.:
Eh, SPF's are spoiled, and it goes to their heads sometimes. I like the PRR myself, but really, some perspective is a good thing. If NYC or Erie modelers had a whole line devoted to mass-producing their distinctive steam (even if it was missing brake shoes) and rolling stock (even if there was an error now and then) at an economical price, they'd think they'd died and gone to hog-heaven.
The BTS Sn3 loco kits do look great. They should be, for six hundred dollars. I would imagine Bowser could do even better than that, for the price, considering how well they did for $150 (actually, the deluxe K4 was sold by Standard Hobby for $130, in an ad from two months ago). But then they'd be yet another megabuck super-duper-model. Yay.
What I am going to miss is the chance, for a price comparable to Bachmann Spectrum, to pick up something I could have a few evenings of construction fun with, and then pull lots of cars with, and then be proud of for years. These prices, by the way, have been basically the same for years, if you look at older ads and adjust for inflation...and they were able to keep upgrading the line and producing new tooling all along. As for your question, TMarsh, the answer is that I probably wouldn't be likely to spend a whole lot more to get those last few details and upgrades. Economy is important to me.
I guess, though, that bang-for-the-buck just isn't important to most model railroaders. I don't mean this in a sarcastic way. I am honestly puzzled by it, especially with the economy where it is now. Do people really see a $300 loco and think it's not that much money? I have a hard enough time justifying a $100 purchase.
orsonroy Don't hold your breath concerning "someone" buying Bowser's steam line. Not gonna happen unless Lee English retires or dies, and the entire company goes up for sale. Besides, who would really WANT it? Notice that Model Power's not doing a whole lot with their acquisition of Mantua, and they've had that line for a decade. There's no market out there...for OLD, TIRED steam kits.
The key would be RETOOLING. But ICM!!!--it costs money. That is where an economy of scale comes in---you have to make the kits such as they can be affordable. I'm looking very closely at some mold making equipment and a source selling small cnc milling machines in the $3000 range. They're small but they can be used to do up the dies to cast the parts etc...But to say there is no market? Did you do a full market survey to say this? Bowser reported not ONE sale but? was there even an effort or is Lee English just winding down the operation and using that as the way out?
Irving Layton, a Canadian poet once had publishing companies going around telling everyone that the poetry of his sort was not being done anymore----meanwhile the publishers were NOT PUTTING THE SUBMITTED WORKS BY LAYTON, OR ANYONE ELSE WRITING IN THAT FORM, OUT. They were rejecting those works while saying that he--Layton--was not writing in that form----
bc:
RMC took a tour of Roundhouse Products back in the 60s (IIRC...I'll have to dig up the back issue if I can) and they were making their modestly sized locos with quite limited equipment. They had some small tabletop DCMT die-casting machines. They were turning drivers in a drill press. They had some small punch presses and lots of little jigs and fixtures to drill boiler holes etc. The whole operation was seemingly built of large blocks of ingenuity and a thin mortar of cash.
It's interesting to think about that. If it was possible then, why not now? I was being a little facetious with my time-estimate before. Two summers is more likely. But still...why not?
TMarsh I do know what you mean. There are an increasing amount of ready built structures showing up at my LHS and a few months ago I was in there when a customer was buying a pre built and he made the comment that for the price difference he almost couldn’t justify the time to build the kit and it was already detailed. I had the exact same thought go through my head. “But why? Isn’t part of the fun building?”
And there is another issue altogether---we hear so much jibber jabber about time=$$$ that we no longer think there may be OTHER reasons to do the kit building.
Now we'll see a market that is split into you EITHER scratchbuild your loco, which seems kind of interesting to this little one---OR you go the wholemeal RTR---which I ALSO do. But as I said earlier, I ALSO bought kits AS WELL.
I also seem to remember in a different thread long ago, and far away--AUTOBUS saying precisely the same thing I'm reiterating---there IS something to kit building that is MORE important than how much money it costs if I put labour costs into the equation----After all, this was supposed to be part of the joy in a hobby wasn't it---building your loco kit???
blownout cylinder ATLANTIC CENTRAL That K4 picture comparison, The Boswer lacks what I feel is the single most tell tail detail - NO BRAKE SHOES -and if you have ever built any die cast kits, you know how hard it is to add that detail. In this case mix n match the material then---you don't NEED to put brake shoes on using the SAME MATERIAL---- Of course the details are important but come on-------
Gentlemen,If I may..
On dying facet of the hobby is overcoming a problem-in this case brake shoes.A brake shoe can be bought or fabricated from ABS plastic or brass stock...A easy task that requires minimal skills.
Now..Maybe I am a dinosaur..
But...
I perfer to add noticable details that can be seen from normal operation viewing.
Would those missing brake shoes bother me? No..The reason being I won't notice 'em anyway under normal viewing.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
To add a bit more grit to the discussion, the term "bang for the buck" has different meanings for different people, at least in functional terms. While people tended to work somewhat close to home, say 15-20 minutes 50-60 years ago, and days were busy with other things, but not the "compelling" things that seem to take up our time today, building kits is a luxury of time.
With longer commutes, adults taking work home on a laptop, some having to moonlight at times, taking kids to and from daycare 'cuz Mom 'n Pop both work ('cuz they hafta), kids getting more homework than every before (and needing coaching, supervision for it) RTR has an appeal that is hard to miss. In that respect, Bowser has really missed the boat, and only recently begun to catch on with their recent RTR rolling stock. Meanwhile, other purveyors of fine engines have noticed the willingness of the model fans to part with some serious cash if the engine looks good, sounds good, and moves "good".
-Crandell