.
I'm not familiar with those terms as they used in this situation.
If somebody is referred to on this forum as a guest then surely that is sufficiant to decribe their activity rather than use words that have meanings that apply in completely different situations and where these words, lurking, sneaking only serve to cloud the issue requiring lengthy explanation to inform people such as myself who find this alternitive use of the English language to be at best cute and at worst - well, a comment here is probably best left un-said, confusing. These guests are neither sneaking or lurking but yet some folks missappropriate these words and apply them to guests of this forum - and I have to ask why? Is guests not sufficiant or perhaps even observers, maybe, non-contributors even?
Places like eBay are rife with these words - words that have a specific meaning, yet are used to describe something else althogether - sniping, bottom feeding, are two of these words that come to mind.
Troll - well that beats the heck out of me right there.
Crandell has referred to trolls as meaning somebody who is a trouble maker and who is out to cause disruption on a forum such as this one. Trolls as I understand them as being from the imagination of the Brothers Grim as being ugly and anti-social in their behaviour is cause enough for troll to be used to describe bad behavior here on the MR forum. But using Troll does not immediately convey this meaning.
When I returned to this forum after an absence of nearly four years I was decribed as a troll for responding to posts that almost pre-dated Methuselah. Out of ignorance on my part and not being aware of the culture of this forum I didn't think that I had done anything wrong - boy was I but in my place real fast. But being called a troll gave me no information as to what I had done that was so offensive to those who took it upon themselves to call me names instead of showing me the right way to behave - being called an idiot by one forum member showed me that bad manners and discourtesy are certainly not the sole domain of a jail house excersie yard. My interpretation of troll in this context meant that I applied this word as one would to describe a style of fishing - trolling and that I must have trolled up old posts.
All I am saying is that name calling and with out conveying any meaning other than displeasue suit no purpose other than as a rallying point for confusion.
Cheers
Bruce
I kind of missed the meaning here, if there are so many people online but only a few taking part, does it go by who actually posts or not?
Not sure how I missed the responses to me concerning my use of the word "bot", but as Crandell explains, it's "for an application (software program) meant to mine databases and other sources of potential information, including open forums where people may let their guards down and reveal information that the designers of the bots can use to advantage." I wasn't referring to humans in a derogatory way when I used this term in my earlier post.
If you would like to see a "bot" or robot in action, put your e-mail address in your signature and soon you will notice your inbox start to fill with junk mail.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
While I won't deny that there are probably a few "sneakers" lurking on the forum, maybe most of them are just "observers" rather than "interactionists". You'll find that in life all over.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
When I started this thread (which I sometimes regret), I used the verb "sneaking" in the dictionary meaning of being stealthy, as something done in secret. I didn't want to use "lurking" because it can mean ready to ambush. According to my old Webster's, lurk, skulk, slink, and sneak mean to behave so as to escape attention. Lurk implies a lying in wait in a place of concealment and suggests a readiness to attack, skulk suggest more strongly cowardice or fear or sinister intent, slink implies moving stealthily merely to escape attention, sneakng may add an implication of entering or leaving a place or evading a diffficulty by furtive (e.g. stealthy), indirect, or underhanded methods.
Trolls lurk. Anonymous guests sneak (they are stealthy).
Mark
Who knows? Maybe they are just taking it all in, or hunting for an answer & waiting for the one person who they feel might be the most approachable to come on line. Everyone lurks now and then, but there are some that go "straight for the meat" so to speak. Not a big deal to me If they are lurking, and maybe learning something in the process!
I am a member here but don't post much at all. I have learned a great deal and appreciate the help. I don't post often because I don't see the need to. I see posts with the same thing over and over, so why should I help to beat a dead horse. I also see people who are arrogant and rude online. I think the internet makes some people ten feet tall and bulletproof. Comments are made in the security of the internet that they wouldn't have the stones to make face-to-face. I guess I choose to follow the old adage: it's better to be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.
Keith Baker
It's an excellent question, Dean, one that has been expressed as more than a little unease by other responders already. I guess we really are known by our choices of words.
I think, to be fair, that the term "bot" is geek-speak (OMG, I'm using labels meself!) for an application meant to mine databases and other sources of potential information, including open fora where people may let their guards down and reveal information that the designers of the bots can use to advantage. It does not, to the best of my knowledge, mean direct human activity, and not always that could be described as objectionable by any one person. Still, at the root of it, it is a third party, from a remote server, looking for a *** in the armour...so-to-speak. The tool is a programme called a "robot".
The other two terms you mention are indeed meant to be derogatory and do suggest that it is online behaviour that is what is being ojected to. However, "sneak" is an old term that I haven't found used as a label or as a descriptor for fora. My mother used the word sneak once or twice, and I came to dread that word. A troll is a person whose soul interest lies in disrupting the harmony of a particular exchange or thread, or even an entire forum. I don't know its provenance for its utility for the internet, but trolls are ugly in character and of countenance if one were to recall one's mythology. Someone found it to be an apt and quick characterization of people who "don't play nicely" online, and it has become widely used.
Note that a member in good standing can sometimes exhibit troll-like behaviour. It is usually grounds for a warning, even in the very first detected instance.
-Crandell
slotracer Dean; if 95% of the sneakers are 'bots' you'd still have to admit there is at least 5% that could potentially be human....................."--
Dean; if 95% of the sneakers are 'bots' you'd still have to admit there is at least 5% that could potentially be human....................."--
I am wondering about some of the names used by forum members to presumably describe in one word the behaviours of others.
Although this is a list of only three names, surely there must be more, anyway, these are:
Bot.
Troll.
Sneaking.
I gather that these descriptive words are probably derogatory or a little snide in nature, but I am interested in their specific meaning in the context in which they are used on this forum.
Dean; if 95% of the sneakers are 'bots' you'd still have to admit there is at least 5% that could potentially be human-- hence we need to encourage those people to speak -- even if it is for 1 or 2 posts.
WHY ???????
What does it matter if someone wants to lurk and not post, why would that concern anyone ?
Isn't there enough empty posts in all these forums already, replies that add nothing at all to the topic, why encourage people to post who obviously don't feel inspired to ?
I stop by here pretty often to look at posts but I rarely ever log in unless I see something I feel like chiming in on, so I probably show up as a guest. If I feel like posting, I log in and do so, I can make that decision, I don't know why I would need to be encouraged to log in and post if I don't feel the need.
Referencing frequent comments regarding less than positive post replies, I have seen that kind of action here as well as at just about any forum I have ever visited, this one is not as bad as others. A moderator offering to fight battles for me makes no difference to me at all, call me thick skinned, thin skinned whatever, fact is I have enough greif and stress from my vendors, company, a few select co-workers, sometimes my wife and frequently from my Teenagers, I certainly am not looking for any more aggrivation from snarky poster'on the internet. As a result, I rarely post on any forum that I ever visit, avoid even reading flaming threads as I have no need to get angered by stuff that doesn't matter anyway and don't chime in on threads 7 pages long with lots of lame humor, LOL, and I agree type responses of no value. I will agree that 90% of the folks on this forum are good folks and it is the 10% of the bad apples that can help undermine the atmosphere, it is that way every where, not only Internet boards but every walk of life.
I made the mistake early on of posting some information about railroads, rates and logisitics and the reality of the shipping world today, I have been in corporate logistics for 8 years and worked for a major class one in sales and marketing for about as long and truck transportation support for a decade before all that so I might know a thing or two. I managed to get a couple snarky responses from one or two who didn't want to be alerted to how things really work and I learned, why reply and give information only to get grief from the bad apples, my response, I post a lot less. I thought I learned that on other forums long ago but I guess I needed to re learn the lesson. Sames goes for a profile, I will never fill one out as when the day arrives that if someone really hacks me off badly I may leave cleanly, quietly and anonymously, I have never looked to see if I get PM's. Some folks are inclined to do even less than I do and never post but always just lurk....nothing wrong with that.
I post to threads but have only started one. Sometimes I think some of the lurkers are members that don't want to be seen.
wayne
This thread seems to have wandered. But I will say I occasionally drop in other forums as a lurker. I do this mainly because I'm just taking a quick look around. And I have no heartburn with lurkers here - look all you want. Personally, I have no problem with the moderators. I don't believe the negative remarks are justified.
And a big AMEN to having a thick skin. When the printed word is all you have, some comments seem harsher or more critical than intended. Humor especially seems to be a problem, I know some of my attempts at humor have failed miserably.
On the subject of grammar, I will say you need to have sufficient grasp of it to express yourself in writing so that others can understand you. But this forum is not the place for those others to be correcting you. There are classes, offered in a variety of venues, that will help you to write better, if you need it then take advantage of one. Also, whenever I get a red line under a word, I take a minute to correct it and use an online dictionary if neccessary - it's one way to improve my communications skills.
Enjoy
Paul
Paul3As people should know, the tone of a post is very hard to get across (even with smilies). There are some folks who read thoughts and emotions into a post that simply aren't there.
True so true. And a dry sense of humor comes across very bad if the rest of the quoted paragraph is even close.
Some just are trolls but keep in mind most are not and by not allowing someone their opinion or jumping at a comment taken wrong just leads to unneeded arguments that solve nothing.
EVERYONE has an opinion and like I've been told, you can beat a person half to death but you're not gonna change their belief or non-belief.
Debates are good, arguements are pointless.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
SSSHHHHH. don't be giving somebody ideas!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Well thank you very much.
I would like to add my $.02 to the "lurker" theories". Someone wisely mentioned that some folks simply like to peruse the boards. It is amazing how much skill and knowledge there is on this forum and many questions can be answered simply be searching here. IMHO there is much more to be learned HERE than from any issue of MR I have ever read.
Maybe they should charge 6 bucks a month for me to learn from here and send the MR for free?
centercab Tony - I need to agree with you on selector. Around the time that I joined, there was a thread about scratchbuilding. One poster actually called another one names. Selector chimed in, laughed with the poster about the names, and did nothing about it. How's that for a moderator? That could be why I've been a member for only a few months but have very few posts to show for it.
Tony - I need to agree with you on selector. Around the time that I joined, there was a thread about scratchbuilding. One poster actually called another one names. Selector chimed in, laughed with the poster about the names, and did nothing about it. How's that for a moderator? That could be why I've been a member for only a few months but have very few posts to show for it.
I think I remember seeing someone say to him in that thread that the cheerleading should stop and something needed to be done to stop the name calling. Little things like that are allowed if certain people are the ones doing it, you know, the online buddies.
Don't let this behavior discourage you from posting, it hasn't stopped me from doing so, even if at times I've stayed away for a while. Generally, there are a lot of nice people with great modeling skills that are good enough to share their knowledge with us. This site is probably one of the best ones out there, so it would be nice if the friendliness atmosphere would improve. I'm sorry that you've had to witness something like what you did in your early membership, all I can tell you just hang in there and don't be turned off by the negativity that may arise every now and then. Hope to see some of your work in the future.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
There are a lot of jerks in real life, don't get me wrong. Some are even on this forum. However, there are also folks that are way too thin-skinned to be posting on the internet.
For example, if someone were to post, "Company X's handrails are too thick. They scale out at 4" thick when the real handrails are 1.25"," and the response is, "Stop bashing Company X!!! That's all people do around here is bash Company X!!! Why can't you leave them alone?!?!?!" Is the heat of the post the blame of the original poster, or the responder?
As people should know, the tone of a post is very hard to get across (even with smilies). There are some folks who read thoughts and emotions into a post that simply aren't there. Some do so because they are insecure and defensive, others because they had a bad day at work or at home and are not even able to read a phone book without getting ticked off about it, and still others have fragile egos that equate their feelings of self worth with other people agreeing with them (disagreeing with them = telling them to go (bleep) themselves...and yes, I know someone like that).
There are people who are unable to distinguish between a debate and a fight, and they seem to feel that two people cannot express different opinions without it being a knock-down, drag-out brawl that makes WWII look like a playground tussle. People can have stong opinions and express them strongly without crossing the line. This doesn't have to be a "fluffy bunny" forum where everyone has to get along or else.
I cut my internet teeth on rec.models.railroad, and several other unmoderated forums back in the day (including this one). r.m.r could be a rough and tumble place (and so could the old MR forums), and the only moderation was by the ISP's. You developed a thick skin or you went elsewhere. I think folks should look at real unmoderated forums to see what real trolls are like, what real flame fests look like, and what real 'net anarchy is like. What happens here is so mild by comparison I don't even blink an eye, even during the worst possible episodes reported here.
I know there are some people on the 'net who think I'm a jerk. And that's okay, because to be honest I can be a jerk. I admit it. Stupidity ticks me off, I don't suffer fools quietly, and sometimes I let that get away from me. But in all my time on this forum, the Atlas Forum, Railroad.net, and others, not once have I ever been suspended or banned. I like to think that my r.m.r experience tells me to when to back off and say, "Is it that important?" When the answer is "No," as it usually is, then one has to let it go. Some people don't have that ability, and they can't let it go until they are stopped by the forum moderators.
There are always two things to keep in mind here:1). You gotta have a thick skin around here, kid.2). It's just a hobby.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
catfan it took me awhile too. Enjoy. Lotsa nice folks hang here.
People! I think we are being too smart by half!
I think it all boils down to the fact that some people like to write and other like to read what has been written. These are rarely static and/or mutually exclusive sets.
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
Welcome onboard Catfan! From a fellow model railroader. Enjoy yourself.
There has been a shortcut to this site on my desktop for quite a while.
daveb I have noticed that if the "Remember Me" box is checked in your profile your Screenname will never appear as a member online so it may be that some of those guests are in fact members but their names do not show. If during a session you go to "Update Profile" your name will then appear as online until the end of that online session. Dave
I have noticed that if the "Remember Me" box is checked in your profile your Screenname will never appear as a member online so it may be that some of those guests are in fact members but their names do not show. If during a session you go to "Update Profile" your name will then appear as online until the end of that online session.
Dave
You are right, Dave. I just tested - same behavior. Just yet another bug in the new forum software.
I have forwarded your observation to forum owner Bergie as a PM, as he is requesting in this thread about bugs in the new forum software in the trains.com "Community assistance" forum: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/139934.aspx
No idea when or if it will be fixed - I asked Bergie when he expects a bugfix version of the forum software to be ready for deployment into production, fixing bugs reported more than a month ago.
I also asked whether they were planning any actions to speed up the process of making old posts searchable in the forums - they are back to april 2008 by now, about 50 days after the changeover to the new forum sw on October 15th 2008.
When/if I get an answer, I'll let you guys know.
Btw, Dave - I guess you are the first person from Jo'burg I've noticed in the forum. How is model railroading in the RSA - are most people modelling US prototypes, or British prototypes, or local prototypes or what?
Smile, Stein - just another forum poster, from a *little* further north in the same timezone :-)
SuperChip64As an Administrator of MaximumPC's Forums
A quality mag btw.
Think about it, you'll see a 10 page thread here of 3 or 4 people arguing about a 4 x8, John Allen, Furlow, proper weathering on a steam engine, prototype operatiojns, art and if foam is strong enough to hold a layout on its own. Some posters ONLY post when they have something to gripe about, (ALL the time) I don't even bother reading those members posts. I think other post just so they can get their "rank" up. Remember, its the quality of the post that matter, not the number.
If any of the guests are by any means a little timid, there is no way they will enter the coliseum for fear of the lions.
I still think 95% of those "guests" are bots, plain and simple.
Superchips; ...patience must be a good thing in that case... ...and no subtle hints even?
I'm even below the armchair modeler - Recliner. ;)
All of my trains are still in moving boxes (as they've been for 10 years) awaiting the time when My sister-in-law moves out, and the computer room moves into her room. Once that happens, I'll then have the room to begin my layout - based upon the Atlas Central Midland.
As an Administrator of MaximumPC's Forums, I see about 35 to 60 guests lurking all the time.
Forget the zoo animals.
Folks like me tend to be like Caboose. When I show up and post something, that is the end of the thread usually.
Sometimes I lurk when there is a good thread going with lots of mining of information or learning to be done.
Ive also learned to stay out of catfights when one says that so and so's building skills are bad. Kitbashed, built from nothing or simple modifications or new uses of common model stuff is all good with me. Even those crappy MRC and Tycos have taught me tolerance and patience.
I try really hard to stay on topic if I have something to post. Otherwise I will simply look for and post a avatar of a parrot and leave it at that.
The more folks we can get sneaking about here the better. Sometimes I think back to the good old days when a troll would show up and everyone would bury that troll to page 200 in 30 minutes by posting really basic hobby stuff totally unrelated to the troll.
THEN we will see all the guests signing in to get thier shots in Yah?
Cheers.