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JOHN ALLEN! (wanna fight?)

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Posted by shayfan84325 on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 1:44 PM

SpaceMouse

BRAKIE

John Allen was good at what he did but,there were those that was just as good or better* in John's day but,never had the publicity like John got from friend Linn Westcott in the pages of MR..

There you have it.

What's done is done and I can't change that. I was not so influenced by those people I did not know about or whose work I did not see. I was influenced by John Allen's work as presented in Westcott's book.

Now I don't doubt, that these others had an impact on the hobby. However, photos of  John's work survived long enough for me to see and be a huge influence.

I subscribed to MR from 1969-1977 and I never felt that John Allen was included disproportionately to any other modeler.  Having read a lot of Westcott's writing and read about Westcott, I doubt that their friendship played much of a role in editorial decisions.  Allen was an excellent modeler, excellent photographer, and a good writer; that's a combination that is going to help anyone to accumulate column-inches in a model railroading magazine.

Myself, I couldn't get enough of Allen's work.  If they had published a John Allen article every month I'd have wished for more.  In terms of influence, it's all over my layout.

Also, in terms of influence, consider this example:  Westcott reported in his book that John Allen was the first to get real notoriety for weathering.  Assuming that this is true, every one of us who weathers our structures, engines, rolling stock, etc. can trace that practice back to John Allen. 

Phil,
I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.

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Posted by fredswain on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 1:31 PM

There are always unknown people out there in all hobbies, jobs, etc that can equal or sometimes even surpass the skill of those that are known. The music world being a very good example as I wouldn't call many of them good singers by any stretch of the imagination. However when no one knows who you are, you aren't that influential. Maybe to a few who know you but that's it. I absolutely believe there were people back then with just as much talent as John Allen. John Armstrong and Frank Ellison being 2 that I already mentioned and there are certainly others. It's more than just modelling skill though that these men were influential. It was a model railroad philosophy. Each of them brought something unique to the table. In the internet age almost anyone can be influential. These men didn't have that.

My current influences are a few local friends that aside from a random layout feature in a magazine here and there are relatively unknown to those outside of town. One of my biggest current influences is Pelle Soeborg who writes articles for MR. His modelling skill is superb. It doesn't matter if you are into the era or location he models. That doesn't take away from the skill and creativity. I really enjoy reading about the "pioneers" such as John Allen. He nor any of the other people weren't my first influences or the reason I got into the hobby. I guess that would be my dad. Those men however had alot of good insight and ideas that still apply and it is still worth studying. Whether they were the best or not is irrelevant. They are the ones that are documented and can actually learn from.

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 12:35 PM

BRAKIE

John Allen was good at what he did but,there were those that was just as good or better* in John's day but,never had the publicity like John got from friend Linn Westcott in the pages of MR..

There you have it.

What's done is done and I can't change that. I was not so influenced by those people I did not know about or whose work I did not see. I was influenced by John Allen's work as presented in Westcott's book.

Now I don't doubt, that these others had an impact on the hobby. However, photos of  John's work survived long enough for me to see and be a huge influence.

 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 12:08 PM

John Allen was good at what he did but,there were those that was just as good or better* in John's day but,never had the publicity like John got from friend Linn Westcott in the pages of MR..

 

This may come as a shock to younger modelers  a lot of modelers back in John's day didn't care that much for him...Yes youngin's we had "rivet" counters and nay sayers even in those days.Shock

 

*There was some new up and comers back then  that is well known today that was turning heads faster then John back in the late 50s and early 60s.

By golly come to think of it those were exciting times in the hobby and the beginning of the hobby we know today thanks in no small parts to these bright up and comers that shook the hobby in advanced modeling,advanced layout designs and prototypical operations.

 

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by fredswain on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:17 AM

The importance of John Allen has nothing to do with a current modeller not getting any inspiration directly from the G&D. It goes far beyond that. John was one of the pioneers that led to what evolved into the current way of thinking when it comes to model railroad design. He wasn't the only person to have this influence though. John Armstrong had many good articles and his Canandaigua Southern layout was a masterpiece but in a different way than John Allen's. Frank Ellison was also very influential with his ideas and his layout the Delta Lines.

I consider these 3 men to be among the most influential of their time and it is their ideas and views that have inspired so many current modellers who have in turn inspired many more. The importance is their legacy. They all had very large contributions to the hobby and whether or not you agreed with their practices, you can't deny their influence.

One area that John Allen gets no love over is the Timesaver. There are people who absolutely hate switching puzzles. Over time we've seen these get integrated into track plans and this was never it's intended use. People get frustrated with it from an operations standpoint and then go back to the man who designed it. It was never intended to be anything more than a puzzle. It's not a layout design. Of course many do appreciate it for what it is but I've seen more people criticize John Allen over the timesaver than anything else. The only criticism I've ever heard about the G&D was that it's grades are steep and it uses real tight radiuses. Of course John justifies all of this so it really just comes down to opinion and what you want to run.

He was a great modeller and I would love to see what could have been with the G&D had John lived to current times. I'd love to see what he would have done with DCC!

I actually just saw 2 of John Allen's old train cars here this past weekend. Gil Freitag in Houston has 2 of them.

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Posted by shayfan84325 on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:16 AM

wjstix

BTW someone mentioned keeping John 'and friends' busy working on the layout...my understanding is that although the layout's operating sessions were done with several people, it was relatively rare that any work on the layout - benchwork, wiring, scenery, structures, cars, etc. - was done by anyone but John himself. I know he built some cars for other people's layouts, so it could be had a few cars or buildings given to him by friends in return that he used, but apparently 99.9% of the layout was John alone.

That was my post.

Your percentage is probably about right, but Jim Findley built a number of the most famous structures on the G & D.  One was the two-level station at Corsa/Cross Junction and another was the station with the triangular footprint and circular tower (I don't recall where it was located on the layout).  This one had a telescoping chimney and Jim liked to adjust the length and wait to see how long it took Allen to notice.  According to Westcott, John Allen loved a good harmess prank, even if the joke was on him.

Cliff Grandt made drive trains for special equipment for John Allen.  In exchange, Allen made highly detailed O scale rolling stock for Grandt (I wonder where those are, now).

When I made my previous post I was making an effort not to snub these and other masters of the hobby who contributed to the G & D.

For those of you looking for the book, I found my copy by doing a google search.  I got it from a used book store in England for 3 Pounds (something like 9 dollars); shipping was about $10.  It arrived in great condition and took about 2 weeks.  The book is often listed on eBay and sells for upwards of $70.

Phil,
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Posted by SilverSpike on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 9:45 AM

John Allen ranks right up there with the best of the best in the Golden Era of model railroading pioneers.

One of my all time favorite quotes of his is this one:

" Start small and build well. Plan your small railroad for operation rather than as a race track, and build it with care. You will be amazed at how much fun a small pike can be."

~ John Allen

 

Ryan Boudreaux
The Piedmont Division
Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger era
Cajun Chef Ryan

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Posted by ereimer on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 9:43 AM

danmerkel

Pathfinder
Maybe Kalmbach will re-issue the book?

Don't stop there... how about the book PLUS a compilation of articles by and / or about John & the G&D?  This has been a traditional Kalmbach practice; reprinting similar articles in book form.  I'd be in line to get a set...

dlm

 

oh yeah !  my credit card is ready to go anytime MR publishes a book with all of JA's articles , and all those written about him as you suggest . i already have the Westcott book and re-read it every couple of years . which reminds me , i should put it in my 'to be read' pile

 

ernie

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Posted by wjstix on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 8:39 AM

joe-daddy

betamax

 But his layout was not that big. 

 

Seems to me that it was about 30 ft square.  That sounds pretty big to me.

John's first G&D was about 30 sq. ft., slightly smaller than a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood (which is 32 sq.ft.). According to the trackplans he drew (I believe for the 1963 article on the layout) the layout room's dimensions at it's largest points was 23' x 32', which would be 736 sq ft. The room had a 'jog' to it so the actual area of the room wasn't a rectangle. Probably the available space was more like 5-600 sq. ft.

BTW someone mentioned keeping John 'and friends' busy working on the layout...my understanding is that although the layout's operating sessions were done with several people, it was relatively rare that any work on the layout - benchwork, wiring, scenery, structures, cars, etc. - was done by anyone but John himself. I know he built some cars for other people's layouts, so it could be had a few cars or buildings given to him by friends in return that he used, but apparently 99.9% of the layout was John alone.

Stix
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Posted by Geared Steam on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 8:22 AM

I still interchange with the G&D Wink

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein

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Posted by corsair7 on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:03 AM

danmerkel

Pathfinder
Maybe Kalmbach will re-issue the book?

Don't stop there... how about the book PLUS a compilation of articles by and / or about John & the G&D?  This has been a traditional Kalmbach practice; reprinting similar articles in book form.  I'd be in line to get a set...

dlm

So would I and I'd bet that there would be enough others to buy most of the print run. If they aren't sure they could just ask and take pre-orders.

Irv

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Posted by Casey Jones - Australia on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 1:14 AM

aloco - I'm sorry you're not into steam, but surely you can find inspiration from John Allen's modelling in terms of planning and building a prototypically operating railroad (don't worry about the name - some of us are stuck with our early choice!) with humour and modesty. 

Look at the articles and photographs that John Allen contributed to a number of model magazines, and think about the lucid explanations, artistic perspective, lighting balance and technical skill to produce as you search for inspiration.

 John Allen was ahead of his time.

Casey Jones, Gen.Mgr. Valley & Eastern Pacific Rwy. Co. - The Klamath Road
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Posted by aloco on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 11:27 PM

 No doubt Allen was a top notch modeler, but he had no influence on me and no inspiration whatsoever.  The Gorre and Daphetid was strictly a steam railroad, and I'm not into steam.

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Posted by twhite on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 10:07 PM

I don't mind admitting that John Allen has had quite an influence on my approach to model railroading, as I was a fledgling scale modeler when his Varney photos began appearing in MR, way back in the 'fifties.  At that time his realism was pretty astounding to a 16 year old kid, and his subtle sense of humor ("Emma" the Stegosaurus yard switcher for one) let me know that the hobby could also be a lot of fun.  Which is why I chose the hobby in the first place--I wanted to enjoy myself and still do the best I could with whatever talents I posessed.  Allen's photographs kept me going--and wishing. 

Frankly, and you might not understand this musical analogy, for John Allen to appear during the time when HO wasn't supposed to stay on the tracks (and a lot of it didn't), is pretty much akin to what might have happened to music if Beethoven had arrived on the scene right after Medieval Gregorian Chant and not 200 years later.  For me, Allen not only expanded, but literally exploded the concepts of what the hobby was capable. 

I remember when I started slapping down my Sierra Nevada's on my current Yuba River Sub.  Every now and then I'd stand back and think to myself, "Well, they're not the Akinback's, but I'm not John Allen, either.  So they'll do."  

Do I admire other 'contemporary' modelers?  You bet I do!  I've seen photos by current modelers that make me drool.  But sometimes I wonder if possibly THEY haven't tapped into Allen's ideas in some subtle way and made it uniquely their own.  If he'd been less of what he was, I don't think we'd be discussing him as if he were still building that railroad of his in his Monterey basement. 

Tom  Smile

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Posted by dknelson on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 9:50 PM

Saying John Allen was a great model railroader is like saying that Sophia Loren was/is a beautiful woman -- not a statement calculated to pick many fights, frankly.  And yet the man did have his detractors back when he was alive and in his prime and more than able to defend his views. 

By the way if you have old issues or see them at swap meets, try to track down the March 1963 issue of MR with John Allen's 10 page article (with foldout) "Concept and planning of the Gorre & Daphetid."  He says dozens and dozens of wise things in that article.  Let me give an example: "I like massive modern steam power, yet I restrained myself to conform to the railroad concept and I built a railroad on which massive steam power can't be used.  To assure myself that I wouldn't renege later, I built the turntable too short and the embankments and tunnel portals too close on curves to handle massive power.  This wasn't done lightly." 

Back when Linn Westcott was editor of MR, which many now see as a golden age for the magazine, the letters section of the mag fumed with angry and vituperative letters, some of them nearly incoherent.  From the December 1963 issue, a letter from M. La Sagessa of Montgomery Alabama: "I save all my issues of Model Railroader and on cold days I spread them throughout the house.  The hot air emanating from the columns written by your staff substantially reduces my fuel bill.  Drop dead."  The heading they gave his letter?  "From a warm friend."

You wanna pick a fight?  Try saying something along these lines: "the only true MODEL railroaders are those who have the ready built Plasticville structures on their layout. All others are effette dilettantes."

Heh heh. 

Dave Nelson

   

 

 

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 8:31 PM

I think that John Allen's legacy is that he was a great inspiration for so many, including myself.  It's a richer hobby because of him.

Enjoy

Paul

If you're having fun, you're doing it the right way.
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Posted by ARTHILL on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 8:29 PM

He was THE influence in my life. He inspired the funny name of my railroads. It took more than 50 years and 5 attempts to finally take a shot at his ideas. It has been an old man's dream to work on what I only dreamed of as a kid and a young man.

I also recognize some of the other greats, most of which are mentioned above, but he was the "perfect storm" (thanks stix) that kept me going.

If you think you have it right, your standards are too low. my photos http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a235/ARTHILL/ Art
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Posted by danmerkel on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 8:02 PM

Pathfinder
Maybe Kalmbach will re-issue the book?

Don't stop there... how about the book PLUS a compilation of articles by and / or about John & the G&D?  This has been a traditional Kalmbach practice; reprinting similar articles in book form.  I'd be in line to get a set...

dlm

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Posted by betamax on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 7:37 PM

Midnight Railroader

betamax
But his layout was not that big.  He did a lot in a small space.

It filled a basement--what do you mean by "big," if not that?

 

It only filled about half the basement.

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Posted by richg1998 on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 7:27 PM

cuyama

Wow, Chip, you were trying to pick this exact same fight two or three years ago. Slow day in PA? Smile

 

Geezers are entertaining . He must be off his meds.

I recently finished a model which has John Allen's influence.I am looking for more to be released.

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

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Posted by shayfan84325 on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 7:03 PM

Midnight Railroader

betamax
But his layout was not that big.  He did a lot in a small space.

It filled a basement--what do you mean by "big," if not that?

I'd say it was just the right size to keep one man (and a few friends) - working on it 8+ hours a day, 7 days a week - busy for more than 20 years.

Phil,
I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.

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Posted by Midnight Railroader on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 6:30 PM

betamax
But his layout was not that big.  He did a lot in a small space.

It filled a basement--what do you mean by "big," if not that?
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Posted by tomikawaTT on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 5:59 PM

What John Allen did for me was to open my eyes to the difference between modeling some improbable ideal (the pristine Ideal sawtooth-roof factory, plopped down on a perfectly flat surface with not a weed or fragment of trash in sight) and modeling somewhat-exaggerated reality (the wood building with flaking paint, flapping shingles and bird droppings.)  Only after I had seen photos of the G&D did I start noticing clutter, trash cans and structural problems in buildings - things that had been there all along, of which I had been blissfully unaware.

I don't know if John was the first to model the grubby side of things (for which, IIRC, he was chastized in the MR letters column by contemporary perfectionists.)  I'm pretty sure he was the first such modeler to receive wide recognition.

Now, many others do (and overdo) the same things he pioneered.  That does not diminish his importance to the hobby.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by Packers#1 on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 5:52 PM

I showed up to late in this world (far to late) to experience any of the G&D, but in my favorite book, Playing With Trains: A Passion Beyond Scale by Sam Posey, Sam talks about the G&D all during the construction of his layout, and I also have poked around on the website for his layout, and I have to say, the man was insanely good. I wish I had been around back when MR was running stories about him and the G&D.

Sawyer Berry

Clemson University c/o 2018

Building a protolanced industrial park layout

 

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Posted by vsmith on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 5:44 PM

cuyama

Wow, Chip, you were trying to pick this exact same fight two or three years ago. Slow day in PA? Smile

Nah, not even... if he want to throw a fist in a crowded bar watch the ensueing fight, he would have made the subject Malcomn Furlow.ShockWinkLaugh

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by vsmith on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 5:40 PM

8500HPGASTURBINE
I think there is way to many other modlers who model as good as him.

But are these modelers Pre-Allen or Post-Allen? Kinda like saying there are alot of painters who paint as good as Van Gogh, but no-one painted like Van Gogh before Van Gogh, only after. Allen is this way, before Allen I dont think anyone went floor to ceiling, or had huge bridges spanning many feet, or had scenery large enough that you walked into and thru it. He marked a definite shift in what a model RR could be and we havent been the same since.

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by joe-daddy on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 5:34 PM

betamax

 But his layout was not that big. 

 

 

Seems to me that it was about 30 ft square.  That sounds pretty big to me.

My website and blog are now at http://www.joe-daddy.com
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Posted by Pathfinder on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 5:30 PM

 Well said SM, you will get no fight from me.

Maybe Kalmbach will re-issue the book?  I find the photos a bit dark and it is probaly due for a freashining, maybe even include a DVD with it......hint.....hint...... 

Keep on Trucking, By Train! Where I Live: BC Hobbies: Model Railroading (HO): CP in the 70's in BC and logging in BC
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 5:29 PM

Whistling

cuyama

Wow, Chip, you were trying to pick this exact same fight two or three years ago. Slow day in PA? Smile

WhistlingWhistlingWhistling

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by cuyama on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 5:23 PM

Wow, Chip, you were trying to pick this exact same fight two or three years ago. Slow day in PA? Smile

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