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JOHN ALLEN! (wanna fight?)

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Posted by SilverSpike on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 9:45 AM

John Allen ranks right up there with the best of the best in the Golden Era of model railroading pioneers.

One of my all time favorite quotes of his is this one:

" Start small and build well. Plan your small railroad for operation rather than as a race track, and build it with care. You will be amazed at how much fun a small pike can be."

~ John Allen

 

Ryan Boudreaux
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Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger era
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Posted by shayfan84325 on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:16 AM

wjstix

BTW someone mentioned keeping John 'and friends' busy working on the layout...my understanding is that although the layout's operating sessions were done with several people, it was relatively rare that any work on the layout - benchwork, wiring, scenery, structures, cars, etc. - was done by anyone but John himself. I know he built some cars for other people's layouts, so it could be had a few cars or buildings given to him by friends in return that he used, but apparently 99.9% of the layout was John alone.

That was my post.

Your percentage is probably about right, but Jim Findley built a number of the most famous structures on the G & D.  One was the two-level station at Corsa/Cross Junction and another was the station with the triangular footprint and circular tower (I don't recall where it was located on the layout).  This one had a telescoping chimney and Jim liked to adjust the length and wait to see how long it took Allen to notice.  According to Westcott, John Allen loved a good harmess prank, even if the joke was on him.

Cliff Grandt made drive trains for special equipment for John Allen.  In exchange, Allen made highly detailed O scale rolling stock for Grandt (I wonder where those are, now).

When I made my previous post I was making an effort not to snub these and other masters of the hobby who contributed to the G & D.

For those of you looking for the book, I found my copy by doing a google search.  I got it from a used book store in England for 3 Pounds (something like 9 dollars); shipping was about $10.  It arrived in great condition and took about 2 weeks.  The book is often listed on eBay and sells for upwards of $70.

Phil,
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Posted by fredswain on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:17 AM

The importance of John Allen has nothing to do with a current modeller not getting any inspiration directly from the G&D. It goes far beyond that. John was one of the pioneers that led to what evolved into the current way of thinking when it comes to model railroad design. He wasn't the only person to have this influence though. John Armstrong had many good articles and his Canandaigua Southern layout was a masterpiece but in a different way than John Allen's. Frank Ellison was also very influential with his ideas and his layout the Delta Lines.

I consider these 3 men to be among the most influential of their time and it is their ideas and views that have inspired so many current modellers who have in turn inspired many more. The importance is their legacy. They all had very large contributions to the hobby and whether or not you agreed with their practices, you can't deny their influence.

One area that John Allen gets no love over is the Timesaver. There are people who absolutely hate switching puzzles. Over time we've seen these get integrated into track plans and this was never it's intended use. People get frustrated with it from an operations standpoint and then go back to the man who designed it. It was never intended to be anything more than a puzzle. It's not a layout design. Of course many do appreciate it for what it is but I've seen more people criticize John Allen over the timesaver than anything else. The only criticism I've ever heard about the G&D was that it's grades are steep and it uses real tight radiuses. Of course John justifies all of this so it really just comes down to opinion and what you want to run.

He was a great modeller and I would love to see what could have been with the G&D had John lived to current times. I'd love to see what he would have done with DCC!

I actually just saw 2 of John Allen's old train cars here this past weekend. Gil Freitag in Houston has 2 of them.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 12:08 PM

John Allen was good at what he did but,there were those that was just as good or better* in John's day but,never had the publicity like John got from friend Linn Westcott in the pages of MR..

 

This may come as a shock to younger modelers  a lot of modelers back in John's day didn't care that much for him...Yes youngin's we had "rivet" counters and nay sayers even in those days.Shock

 

*There was some new up and comers back then  that is well known today that was turning heads faster then John back in the late 50s and early 60s.

By golly come to think of it those were exciting times in the hobby and the beginning of the hobby we know today thanks in no small parts to these bright up and comers that shook the hobby in advanced modeling,advanced layout designs and prototypical operations.

 

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 12:35 PM

BRAKIE

John Allen was good at what he did but,there were those that was just as good or better* in John's day but,never had the publicity like John got from friend Linn Westcott in the pages of MR..

There you have it.

What's done is done and I can't change that. I was not so influenced by those people I did not know about or whose work I did not see. I was influenced by John Allen's work as presented in Westcott's book.

Now I don't doubt, that these others had an impact on the hobby. However, photos of  John's work survived long enough for me to see and be a huge influence.

 

Chip

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Posted by fredswain on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 1:31 PM

There are always unknown people out there in all hobbies, jobs, etc that can equal or sometimes even surpass the skill of those that are known. The music world being a very good example as I wouldn't call many of them good singers by any stretch of the imagination. However when no one knows who you are, you aren't that influential. Maybe to a few who know you but that's it. I absolutely believe there were people back then with just as much talent as John Allen. John Armstrong and Frank Ellison being 2 that I already mentioned and there are certainly others. It's more than just modelling skill though that these men were influential. It was a model railroad philosophy. Each of them brought something unique to the table. In the internet age almost anyone can be influential. These men didn't have that.

My current influences are a few local friends that aside from a random layout feature in a magazine here and there are relatively unknown to those outside of town. One of my biggest current influences is Pelle Soeborg who writes articles for MR. His modelling skill is superb. It doesn't matter if you are into the era or location he models. That doesn't take away from the skill and creativity. I really enjoy reading about the "pioneers" such as John Allen. He nor any of the other people weren't my first influences or the reason I got into the hobby. I guess that would be my dad. Those men however had alot of good insight and ideas that still apply and it is still worth studying. Whether they were the best or not is irrelevant. They are the ones that are documented and can actually learn from.

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Posted by shayfan84325 on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 1:44 PM

SpaceMouse

BRAKIE

John Allen was good at what he did but,there were those that was just as good or better* in John's day but,never had the publicity like John got from friend Linn Westcott in the pages of MR..

There you have it.

What's done is done and I can't change that. I was not so influenced by those people I did not know about or whose work I did not see. I was influenced by John Allen's work as presented in Westcott's book.

Now I don't doubt, that these others had an impact on the hobby. However, photos of  John's work survived long enough for me to see and be a huge influence.

I subscribed to MR from 1969-1977 and I never felt that John Allen was included disproportionately to any other modeler.  Having read a lot of Westcott's writing and read about Westcott, I doubt that their friendship played much of a role in editorial decisions.  Allen was an excellent modeler, excellent photographer, and a good writer; that's a combination that is going to help anyone to accumulate column-inches in a model railroading magazine.

Myself, I couldn't get enough of Allen's work.  If they had published a John Allen article every month I'd have wished for more.  In terms of influence, it's all over my layout.

Also, in terms of influence, consider this example:  Westcott reported in his book that John Allen was the first to get real notoriety for weathering.  Assuming that this is true, every one of us who weathers our structures, engines, rolling stock, etc. can trace that practice back to John Allen. 

Phil,
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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 1:50 PM

Chip,Does these names ring a bell? Allen McClelland,Tony Koester,Doug Smith(the father of carcards/waybills)..How about Paul Jansen? There are many.

There was a lot of "super" modelers in that day that was real  hobby shakers and movers the problem is they never got their far share of publicity as up and comers like John did...That's the sad part.

Most modelers never heard of Paul Jansen but,his modeling and photography was advance for that era.

Allen and Tony would wait till the 70s before they raise to fame even tho' Allen had several photos in Trackside Photos that showed modeling well ahead of its time.

Doug Smith was as the father of car card/waybill operation.A novel idea that was thought to be quite useless..After all who wants to flip through way bills and car cards when they are running their trains and why did MR waste the space on such a useless subject?

John has a part in the history of the hobby has what could be done beyond the simple track filled 5x9 "ping pong" layouts of those times..

 

I dunno the hobby was advancing on all sides for the better and yet John and his G&D still held top billing in MR till the bubble burst in or around the mid 60s then John kinda slipped into the shadows as more "advanced" modeling came on the scene and "fantasy" modeling was frown upon..Even the old wooden car kits was scorn by the majority as being to cruel looking and outdated.

 

 

 

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 2:04 PM

Brakie,

Yes I read (or read about) all those modelers. But I read about them long after I started my first layout. By then I had my vision of big scenery firmly planted in my brain. Now the one you did not mention, Armstrong, I read in between reading Westcott's book and building my first layout. But Anderson gave me the how, Allen gave me the inspiration.  

Chip

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 2:10 PM

Phil said:I subscribed to MR from 1969-1977 and I never felt that John Allen was included disproportionately to any other modeler. 

-----------------------------------------------------

You're about a decade to late..Time was the G&D was a monthly picture and John had several bylines in MR and RMC..The G&D was shown in several catalogs including PFM..

 

John was not the first to weather locomotives and cars but,was given the notoriety by Linn.The guy was a O Scale 2 railer...

 

I once discuss at length a grand idea of mine and as a teenager I was basically ignored I even penned a article and was told "Thank You" but,your idea seems impractacle and that was that.

Doesn't matter..

Somebody else picked up on the idea 20 years after I did..

 So goes life.

 

Larry

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Posted by jguess733 on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 2:26 PM
Unfortunately Kalmbach has no plans to re-issue the book. Here is the reply they sent back to me when I emailed them to inquire about that possibility. Maybe if we all got together to show that there is a big interest in "The Book" as it is referred to in most G&D circles as well as a book with all of JA's articles, they will do it. Dear Jason Guess: Thank you for inquiry! Unfortunately, Model Railroading w/ John Allen is out of print and no longer available. We do not have plans to reprint this title. When we receive requests for an out of print book, we share the request with our Books Department; however, there are many reasons why a book may not be reprinted. Your e-mail will be shared with the Books Department as another request. If you wish to contact someone directly and find out further detail, please phone 262-796-8776 and ask for the Books Department. Listed below are different internet sources we are aware of that will search for out of print books, should you be interested in researching your request further: www.Amazon.com www.bn.com www.abebooks.com www.harvestbooks.com www.alibris.com If we may be of further assistance, email customerservice@kalmbach.com, phone 800-533-6644 or fax 262-796-1615. Customers outside the U.S. and Canada may contact us at 262-796-8776, ext. 661. Thank you. Sincerely, Jenny Customer Sales & Service Kalmbach Publishing Company - KPC 21027 Crossroads Circle PO Box 1612 Waukesha WI 53187-1612

Jason

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Posted by CNJ831 on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 2:58 PM

BRAKIE

Phil said:I subscribed to MR from 1969-1977 and I never felt that John Allen was included disproportionately to any other modeler. 

-----------------------------------------------------

You're about a decade to late..Time was the G&D was a monthly picture and John had several bylines in MR and RMC..The G&D was shown in several catalogs including PFM..

John was not the first to weather locomotives and cars but,was given the notoriety by Linn.The guy was a O Scale 2 railer...

Just as Brakie says, for a time John Allen's work was evident quite disproportionally in the hobby press. And remember, Gordon Varney was using images of his products shot on the G&D almost monthly, appearing sometimes in both MR and RMC at one time.

I also agree that there were quite a number of other hobbyists doing as good, or even better work, than John back in the 50's and early 60's. The G&D had a decided fantasy, or caricature bend, to much of it which many at the time were not a thrilled over as many are today. By the mid 1950's the trend was already decidedly toward realism and way from stretching reality.

There were also superior layout photographers to John in the 50's. Several were working with pinhole lenses and producing amazing images that were sometimes difficult to tell from the prototype (Bill Clouser, for instance). This was rarely ever so with John's work, which were always obviously scenes of models and often shot as more or less helicopter views - save for the trestle shots.

It is also worth pointing out that fame in a hobby is often based as much, or more, on exposure as opposed to outstanding talent. If a particular publication's editor likes your style of writing, or photographs, you can be assured of going to the head of the line when submitting material. Writers who require little or no copy editing quickly become favorites of an editor and by repeated exposure, can become very well known to readers. If their work, what ever the subject, is at least moderately good, the less accomplished will quickly come to place the individual on a pedestal. Far too often you need not be the best in a particular field to be famous, only widely known.

I'm not saying this to critcize John or his works, only that this is the real way fame often comes. John was an excellent modeler in my book but only one of many talented hobbyists at the time, most of whom never got the page space they deserved.

CNJ831    

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Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:08 PM

I separate John Allen the modeler and innovator, from the G&D railroad.  John Allen was very creative.  But for my tastes G&D was not inspirational.  Given the choice between an article on J. Harold Geisell's small layout or the V&O or Findlay's or the MP&N or pretty much anything by Odegard and pictorial on the G&D, I would not choose the G&D.  Not that the G&D was bad.  It just doesn't appeal to me. 

Wanting to fight over not liking the G&D is like wanting to fight me because I like scrambled eggs and you like them sunny side up.  Pretty silly. 

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Posted by shayfan84325 on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:29 PM

BRAKIE
John was not the first to weather locomotives and cars but,was given the notoriety by Linn.The guy was a O Scale 2 railer...

John Allen won a national award for his well-worn enginehouse in 1948.  That is the model that Westcott cites as the first.  Is there a documented earlier case?  What was it?

Phil,
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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:43 PM

shayfan84325

BRAKIE
John was not the first to weather locomotives and cars but,was given the notoriety by Linn.The guy was a O Scale 2 railer...

John Allen won a national award for his well-worn enginehouse in 1948.  That is the model that Westcott cites as the first.  Is there a documented earlier case?  What was it?

 

Phil,We would need to dig deep into the O Scale annuals to find that man's name..Even my Dad "weathered" his O scale locos untill he went into HO in 53 or 54.

Larry

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Posted by Midnight Railroader on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:44 PM

BRAKIE
John Allen was good at what he did but,there were those that was just as good or better* in John's day but,never had the publicity like John got from friend Linn Westcott in the pages of MR..

Always a factor.

My personal model railroading hero, Minton Cronkhite, was so far ahead of his time in the 30's and 40's, he was doing things with layout design that were seen as "new" when they were the subject of articles in the 80s! Same thing for his train control systems.

But because he didn't write articles about his work, nor spend time photographing it, there are about three stories in the history of MR that covered his work. And his layout were massive, extremely prototypical affairs--so much so, that Santa Fe hired him to build exhibits for them to be shown at public events.

And he worked on into the 1960s, continually improving the realism of his modeling. His obit in MR was one paragraph, as i recall.

If he were more of a self-promoter, we might be arguing the merits of Cronkhite's modeling style on this forum.

 

 

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Posted by dknelson on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:47 PM

I suspect the prominence of John Allen articles in Model Railroader had a great deal to do with the fact that the man could put pen to paper, which already gave him a leg up on talented modelers who could not, or were afraid to, write for publication.  And in an era when photo reproduction was not as sharp and clear as it came to be, John Allen started with superbly focused and artfully shot photos that tended to look better than many other people's efforts.  MR used to run some truly marginal photos in Trackside Photos back in those days, out of necessity,.

By no means was John Allen the first guy to weather structures and models, although he was one of the best and most imaginative at it.  The November 1940 MR has an article by F S Smith about his O scale Delaware & Western.  It being a golden era steam pike the locos and passenger cars look, correctly, quite clean, but his engine house had broken windows and worn paint.  I have no reason to think it was the first weathered structure, since in the letters section of that same issue, Jack W. De Camp wrote about "weathering buildings" showing that even the vocabulary existed by then. 

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Posted by Midnight Railroader on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:58 PM

CNJ831

It is also worth pointing out that fame in a hobby is often based as much, or more, than on exposure as opposed to outstanding talent. If a particular publication editor likes your style of writing, or photographs, you can be assured of going to the head of the line when submitting material. Writers who require little or no copy editing quickly become favorites of an editor and by repeated exposure, can become very well known to readers. If their work, what ever the subject, is at least moderately good, the less accomplished will quickly come to place the individual on a pedestal. Far too often you need not be the best in a particular field to be famous, only widely known

See "Furlow, Malcolm," who wrote lots of words and shot many photos for a sum total of about six years, made his huge splash, then disappeared from the hobby.

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Posted by Autobus Prime on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 6:09 PM

Folks:

I wonder if a little of the controversy over the G&D doesn't exist simply because it was such a great model railroad, that inspired a lot of imitation.  It wrapped itself with its own genre of dramatic mountain-climbing model railroads and now it's hard to see just how unusual and awesome it was.

I think my favorite G&D photo is the first one I saw.  It was the Gorre enginehouse, framed by overhanging tree branches in the foreground.  It was an early shot, and it still has an odd sense of reality about it.

 

 

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Posted by B&Mbarn on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:15 PM

 

Well said.  We should appreciate John Allen for what he did and when he did it.
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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:26 PM

I don't think jealousy had anything to do with the like/dislike of the G&D...If anything it may have been the overkill of pictures of the G&D..Look at the flap about Malcolm just a few years ago..It was the same in John's day except Linn never heard the "Enough already!"

 Of course the same may be said about any of today's layouts in 20-30 years..

Larry

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:30 PM

B&Mbarn

 

Well said.  We should appreciate John Allen for what he did and when he did it.

 

True but,he was not the only great modeler of that era.He was the only well publish modeler of that era...

Everywhere you look was pictures of the G&D in magazines and catalogs complete overkill..

Larry

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Posted by shayfan84325 on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:32 PM

BRAKIE

shayfan84325

BRAKIE
John was not the first to weather locomotives and cars but,was given the notoriety by Linn.The guy was a O Scale 2 railer...

John Allen won a national award for his well-worn enginehouse in 1948.  That is the model that Westcott cites as the first.  Is there a documented earlier case?  What was it?

 

Phil,We would need to dig deep into the O Scale annuals to find that man's name..Even my Dad "weathered" his O scale locos untill he went into HO in 53 or 54.

My reference to Westcott's book was in error.  Westcott acknowledges that it was not the first weathered model, but John Allen's enginehouse was the first weathered model to win an American model railroad contest.  Westcott wrote, "It influenced many modelers, for they discovered that a weathered model appears more realistic and detailed than the same model would appear in immaculate condition."

Sorry about any feathers I ruffled.

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Posted by Autobus Prime on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:40 PM

BRAKIE

I don't think jealousy had anything to do with the like/dislike of the G&D...If anything it may have been the overkill of pictures of the G&D..Look at the flap about Malcolm just a few years ago..It was the same in John's day except Linn never heard the "Enough already!"

Of course the same may be said about any of today's layouts in 20-30 years..

B:

I didn't mean it was jealousy; I meant that sometimes a thing can be so cool it spawns a trend, and then gets submerged in it. 

If you want a more recent example, I think we might have approached that point with Appalachian coal railroads. I think they're fascinating railroads, but I could see how somebody else could have looked and said, "Oh GAD, another frelling coal hauler.  Why can't someone model the SP&S?"

(But then you have perennial Colorado narrow gauge screwing up the whole analogy.)

 

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Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:53 PM

dknelson
I suspect the prominence of John Allen articles in Model Railroader had a great deal to do with the fact that the man could put pen to paper, which already gave him a leg up on talented modelers who could not, or were afraid to, write for publication. 

I believe it was not because of writing talent (not saying that he wasn't a talented writer), but because of his ability to photograph models effectively.  He was a commercial photographer so could deliver the type of photos that other authors could only dream of.  If he lacked the ability to photograph his layout and models, you probably would have never heard of it.

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Posted by PASMITH on Wednesday, December 3, 2008 9:28 PM
If one were to make a list of every aspect, talent, drive, vision, or purpose that goes into making a great modeler, model railroader or layout, the list would go way beyond the NMRA master modeler achievement list. Over many years I have read about and seen fabulous works and accomplishments in this field and I agree that on an individual or even a collective basis there were many great modelers and railroads that could be considered equal to or even selectively superior to that of John Allen's. However, it is very hard to find any work that approaches the overall lifetime and landmark accomplishments of Allen when every and all aspects of the hobby are taken into consideration. Perhaps there are unreported or underreported works that are overall, far superior but it would seem that such works by definition would be hard to hide. Regardless of all that, for me and many others, John Allen has been a life long inspiration. At 75 years, I believe Model Railroader got it right. Peter Smith, Memphis
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Posted by corsair7 on Thursday, December 4, 2008 7:30 AM

dehusman

dknelson
I suspect the prominence of John Allen articles in Model Railroader had a great deal to do with the fact that the man could put pen to paper, which already gave him a leg up on talented modelers who could not, or were afraid to, write for publication. 

I believe it was not because of writing talent (not saying that he wasn't a talented writer), but because of his ability to photograph models effectively.  He was a commercial photographer so could deliver the type of photos that other authors could only dream of.  If he lacked the ability to photograph his layout and models, you probably would have never heard of it.

Actually I think was because he was capapble of writing coherently and interstingly and photogaphing what he wrote about that made it possible for model railroad magazines to publish so much about his layout. Those have got to be two points that any magazine editor would jump at because it takes two headaches out of the mix for them. Now they only have to deal with layout and photo placement. And add to that there is only a limited time between issues and lots to accomplish in that time span that you get to realize that the less that has to be done by the editorial staff, the more likely that an article that is both well written and nicely illustrated with great photos will make it into print.

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:29 AM

BRAKIE

Chip,Does these names ring a bell? Allen McClelland,Tony Koester,Doug Smith(the father of carcards/waybills)..How about Paul Jansen? There are many.

There was a lot of "super" modelers in that day that was real  hobby shakers and movers the problem is they never got their far share of publicity as up and comers like John did...That's the sad part.

Well it's important to remember John Allen first came to prominence in the late 1940's, when guys like you mention were still in school. Of course there were great model railroaders around during John's time in the hobby (from the forties til he died in the early seventies) but by the end of his life many of the top modellers were guys who had been inspired by his work. It's kinda like music...Elvis Presley wasn't the first guy to record Rock and Roll, or the first guy to have a national top 10 hit with a Rock record (he wasn't even the second or third) and his records weren't as good as some other artists BUT he was the one who caught the imagination of the general public and put Rock on the map. You could make a good argument that his records were surpased later by the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Springsteen etc. - but without Elvis, those later acts might never have happened.

I suspect a lot of the "overkill" of John in hobby magazines at the time came not from one editor or another pushing John's work, but simply that John was able to deliver a "package" that made the editor's job easy. Here you are trying to find articles to fill the next issue and in the mail you get an article from JA that is very well written, demonstrates excellent modelling techniques, and comes with professional quality photos. Well of course you're going to put it in your magazine!!

Stix
  • Member since
    October 2001
  • From: OH
  • 17,574 posts
Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, December 4, 2008 10:47 AM

dehusman

dknelson
I suspect the prominence of John Allen articles in Model Railroader had a great deal to do with the fact that the man could put pen to paper, which already gave him a leg up on talented modelers who could not, or were afraid to, write for publication. 

I believe it was not because of writing talent (not saying that he wasn't a talented writer), but because of his ability to photograph models effectively.  He was a commercial photographer so could deliver the type of photos that other authors could only dream of.  If he lacked the ability to photograph his layout and models, you probably would have never heard of it.

 

Dave,Indeed John was also a top notch photographer.However,the only one I fully believe would equal John would be Paul Jansen.

 

 

BTW..John was a busy man.

Take a look see.You may understand that age old cry of "Enough!".

http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/G&D_Files.htm

 

Looking at some of those pictures brings back a flood of memories...

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

  • Member since
    October 2001
  • From: OH
  • 17,574 posts
Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:05 AM

Stix,The good part is each of those mention modelers moved the hobby forward to what it is today.There are many such pioneers whose works goes unnoticed that deserves to be remembered.. 

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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