It strikes me that some of the ire we are experiencing on this thread is due to a disparity in literacy. I say this knowing that it might inflame things...I hope that folks will just try to understand my point, and then either agree or disagree, openly or to themselves, without using invective if being open about it. In the computer age, we tend to skim things and often misread or misinterpret what was written. There is a professor at Tufts University who is actively working on research about how our brains get rewired by using personal information devices and by spending long hours at the computer...we impatiently skim and don't often do the deeper thinking and reading that is required.
Kevin alludes to this in his post just now...not having seen what he obviously feels, in retrospect, is a message that is important to his point of view on the subject.
FWIW, I will state openly that, while Mark's opinions are forceful, and directly stated in blunt terms, there is nothing offensive about them. If his expression of disagreement with opinions stated in this thread leave you angry or without a reasoned response, then it would be best to say nothing. But, resorting to finger-pointing and invoking the word "insult" does, I'll agree with him, suggest that folks are on a weak footing with their own positions, and should either retrench and find a more convincing way of making their point, or yield to him. Hopefully that would include trying harder to understand his views. Simply disagreeing, and telling him that his views are insulting, no matter how he couches it, is not going to win points here.
Reason, please, not recourse to the mods.
-Crandell
BlueHillsCPRI think you have stated things rather clearly. Had Mr. Newton not quoted your original post I would not have known what you said. Sure it might have been a bit insulting, but under these circumstances, I couldn't agree more.
davidmbedardNah.....the buttery goodness is worth the extra few inches......David B
Nah.....the buttery goodness is worth the extra few inches......
David B
el-capitanThe condescending tone in the MR article and restated loudly by Newton is detrimental to the hobby. It is the biggest reason that my son and I aren't active in a club currently and a small reason why I have not been to the Oscale national convention in many years. There are not many kids that have the balls to post their hard work on a website and it's not fair for you, Newton, to knock them down. (I edited this last sentence because I realized what I had said at first was rather insulting)
The condescending tone in the MR article and restated loudly by Newton is detrimental to the hobby. It is the biggest reason that my son and I aren't active in a club currently and a small reason why I have not been to the Oscale national convention in many years.
There are not many kids that have the balls to post their hard work on a website and it's not fair for you, Newton, to knock them down.
(I edited this last sentence because I realized what I had said at first was rather insulting)
I think you have stated things rather clearly. Had Mr. Newton not quoted your original post I would not have known what you said. Sure it might have been a bit insulting, but under these circumstances, I couldn't agree more.
davidmbedard David B
Are you having fun David? Hope that is low fat butter or you are going to need Jenny Craig!
el-capitanI'm 33 now but as a child I was actively involved in a large MR club and went to the O scale nationals with my parents. When I was a kid I started building models at 5 and entered my first contest at 8. At the time there was no category for kids so I entered against the adults. I won 2nd place for my wood side PFE reefer at 8. Won third place for structures/dioramas at age 10. At the club, which at the time, was the largest Oscale club in Michigan (5000 sq. ft.) I was running trains at 7 and dispatching the entire layout during open houses at age 11.
I'm 33 now but as a child I was actively involved in a large MR club and went to the O scale nationals with my parents. When I was a kid I started building models at 5 and entered my first contest at 8. At the time there was no category for kids so I entered against the adults. I won 2nd place for my wood side PFE reefer at 8. Won third place for structures/dioramas at age 10. At the club, which at the time, was the largest Oscale club in Michigan (5000 sq. ft.) I was running trains at 7 and dispatching the entire layout during open houses at age 11.
The condescending tone in the MR article and restated loudly by Newton is detrimental to the hobby.
There are not many kids that have the balls to post their hard work on a website and you, Newton, are a small man for knocking them down.
marknewtonI made a simple statement of fact, as I see it.
Hey Mark,
One thing. You stated your opinion. Having one does not make it a fact.
Another thing. Ease up on the young folks a bit. Without young modelers coming into the hobby the hobby will be dead in the water in no time. This thread is doing little to encourage young people to take up the hobby.
marknewtonGood idea, if you can't distinguish the difference between a general observation about skill levels and an insult. Or do you seriously maintain that your skills after, say, 5 years in the hobby, are as well developed and multi-faceted as those of someone with 45 years in the hobby?
Lastly. The way one person takes the comments of another is a personal thing. Lots of peoples feelings are hurt in these forums everyday by people who did not intend their words to be taken as insults, but it still happens. If you wanted to apologize for any misunderstanding of what you meant that's cool but it seems like that is not what you want to do. Rather it seems you want to be sure to insult the lad now. I don't recall any of the teens stating that their skills were equal or better than those of someone with 45 years experience in the hobby as you suggest.
Honestly. Considering the what...50+ years life experience you have, you would think you could be a little more tolerant of the younger crowd. I think these teens have conducted themselves in a fairly admirable manner. I can't say the same for some of the adults who have contributed to this thread.
selector...Every great artist (hold on, Mark, I'm not finished! ) would tell you that they got better as they went along...
...Every great artist (hold on, Mark, I'm not finished! ) would tell you that they got better as they went along...
Packers#1 What's a real shame is that ya'll are so blind w/ feeling superior to us teens, you won't open your eyes and accept that we can be right up there w/ ya'll.
What's a real shame is that ya'll are so blind w/ feeling superior to us teens, you won't open your eyes and accept that we can be right up there w/ ya'll.
el-capitanMidnight Railroader No, it doesn't. Your response, however, proves that the "everyone's a winner no matter how well they play" attitude has taken solid hold. That is not how I interpreted his comment at all. The original comment by Newton implies that you must be an adult to be a good modeler. This is absurd. I have seen great stuff from some kids and junk from some adults.
Midnight Railroader No, it doesn't. Your response, however, proves that the "everyone's a winner no matter how well they play" attitude has taken solid hold.
No, it doesn't.
Your response, however, proves that the "everyone's a winner no matter how well they play" attitude has taken solid hold.
That is not how I interpreted his comment at all.
The original comment by Newton implies that you must be an adult to be a good modeler. This is absurd. I have seen great stuff from some kids and junk from some adults.
TrainManTyAnd this proves that, even though that letter was printed 35 years ago, that attitude still exists among some of us today.
TrainManTy I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings"
I will bow out of this thread now, as I probably don't have the "skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience" to continue...
Trynn_Allen2"One must understand the full scope of the hobby's history to appreciate what generates opinions expressed at specific times. " CNJ, I understand the the history and the why the attitude was expressed. My response is still, "Luddite".
"One must understand the full scope of the hobby's history to appreciate what generates opinions expressed at specific times. "
CNJ,
I understand the the history and the why the attitude was expressed. My response is still, "Luddite".
This is absolutely disgusting. Who here has a massive self confidence problem and feels the need to belittle teens in order to make themselves feel better..... I am not longer a teen (20 now) but I still think that those of you who try to put down younger people for being involved in the hobby( and saying your better than them is definitely a put down), are completely and utterly devoid of any common sense. Milwaukee Road, your actually engaging in a p*ssing contest with a teen.... And your how old? You have got to be kidding me. I have always found, in my short stay here, that this place is very nurturing in terms of answering some dumb questions that I have asked. I cannot for the life of me believe that some of you actually are saying, on a public forum that your better than kids. Im completely in awe. Ty, and everyone else including me, are in this hobby because its fun, not because we are trying to compete with 40-70 year old people. GrampysTrains is an inspiration to everyone, with what he can do, and then people like you try and compare our skills with such a master as him, as if that is going to provide any leverage that your so superior to us. We have tons of learning to do, and we understand that. However, we would rather learn with someone who is willing to show us the right way, as opposed to comparing their work with ours, for no other reason than to run our hopes and dreams into the ground. No offense to you, but your argument makes you look like a complete and utter idiot.Its funny that you said "the teens comment was rude". Why? Because he spoke his opinion right back to you? Get used to it, if your going to post this kind of BS on a forum that I thought was so much about fun and enjoyment of the hobby. Your a disgrace.
Disgusted.
alexP
Well said! When any one of us decides that they have reached a place where they need go no further, it is time for a drastic change....to darts or engine repair, maybe horse racing. Bearing in mind that talent counts for a lot in this hobby, and that some of us have it in abundance while others struggle visibly (always an opinion, isn't it?), it would be foolish to think that spending time and developing both skills and knowledge count for little in a hobby steeped in history. Every great artist (hold on, Mark, I'm not finished! ) would tell you that they got better as they went along, and one way they got better was in educating their eye. They see things they didn't see before, and they can point to their work and show you its manifestation. This hobby is about the confluence of many skills, and while some of us come to the hobby greatly accomplished in one or more areas, we don't come highly skilled in all the ones that must be well developed to build a wonderful layout. We're short on history, or short on wood work, or...we don't have it all. But we can, if we are determined and halfways intelligent, get there in time.
There is an old Latin aphorism: Qui non proficit deficit. "Who does not advance falls behind." Each of us must continue to move forward, even if a little, or we begin to lose ground while those around us keep plugging away.
Possibly I could close this topic with a couple of thoughts.
I have enjoy this hobby since the early fiftys and still do so today.
I remember MR since they were the small sized booklet form of publication, but that said and being somewhat of a "Geezer"( I turned 68 yesterday) I still remember that Kalmbach also used to put out a publication that was called "Model Trains" which was geared more toward the younger or starting out Modellers.
I read them to the point I almost had the issues memorized and even had a couple of items printed therein. I knew that they were talking about "My Stage" of modelling right then. That did not mean that I didn't buy, read and drool over Model Rail;roader and hope someday that the things I was learning from Model Trains would carry me to the next level into "Model Railroading" and it has done just that.
This is a hobby for everyone and at any given time very few of us are at the same point. There is a very large learning curve that is constantly being added to by our individual interests of Prototype, Operations, new style electronics, multiple decks and so on and so forth. Radio control will probably be next. So just enjoy the place that you are at, marvel at your accomplishments, but don't dwell on them, keep growing and learning as that is what our Tony, Joe, Lynn, Dave and the like have done.That is how they have perfected their talents and got to the point of being recognized by all of us and their Piers as well.
This is my wish for all of you.
Johnboy out...........................
Long live the "Wobbly".
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Packers#1my fault. I was thinking it and thought that everyone else would know. My fault, I'm sorry.
4merroad4man Packers#1 Heck no. What I meant was we are just as good as the AVERAGE modeler, not like Grampys or Joe or Aggro. Then why didn't you say that to start with. Would've saved a whole lot of confusion.......
Packers#1 Heck no. What I meant was we are just as good as the AVERAGE modeler, not like Grampys or Joe or Aggro.
Heck no. What I meant was we are just as good as the AVERAGE modeler, not like Grampys or Joe or Aggro.
Then why didn't you say that to start with. Would've saved a whole lot of confusion.......
my fault. I was thinking it and thought that everyone else would know. My fault, I'm sorry.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
4merroad4manel-capitanThe same can be said of older modelers Agreed. Just look on any Weekend Photo Fun........
el-capitanThe same can be said of older modelers
SOU FanmarknewtonPackers#1We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others. I don't say this to hurt your feelings, but none of these examples are as good as the stuff built by us "older folks". Mark. But we can get close......
marknewtonPackers#1We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others. I don't say this to hurt your feelings, but none of these examples are as good as the stuff built by us "older folks". Mark.
Packers#1We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks.
Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others.
Tyler,I will put my operating skills up against the best.I can sit down with the best of 'em and talk prototypical layout design and operation..I can sit down with the best and talk about believability in freelancing a railroad.
If you know the difference between a SIECO and a PC&F boxcar you are better then me.If you can wire a toggle switch you know more then me..If you can tell the difference between a SD50 and SD60 without checking numbers your better.
See how it works? We all have our niches that we shine in and that includes "experts" of all stripes..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Packers#1 Ditto. they are masters. Midnight railroader, here's my question: Would you put yourself up there w/ them? Because if the answer is no, then why are you comparing US w/ them if you be in the same comparison as us: not as good as them? And ditto,t his is for the fun of it. If someone was completly happy w/ a circle of track and RTR equipment and that's how good they wanted to get, then that's them, and you have no place to bring them down. Oh, and teaching that everyone's a winner, I'm w/ you there, everyone gets so scared of hurting someone's feelings. However, it still ain't a good thing to do. But, you shouldn't put someone down when you would be in the same pool as them, so to speak. But hey, if you are up there w/ Grampy and Aggro and Joe, then whatever, you can.
Ditto. they are masters. Midnight railroader, here's my question: Would you put yourself up there w/ them? Because if the answer is no, then why are you comparing US w/ them if you be in the same comparison as us: not as good as them? And ditto,t his is for the fun of it. If someone was completly happy w/ a circle of track and RTR equipment and that's how good they wanted to get, then that's them, and you have no place to bring them down. Oh, and teaching that everyone's a winner, I'm w/ you there, everyone gets so scared of hurting someone's feelings. However, it still ain't a good thing to do. But, you shouldn't put someone down when you would be in the same pool as them, so to speak. But hey, if you are up there w/ Grampy and Aggro and Joe, then whatever, you can.
I don't know if my skills are as good as theirs, but as was pointed out above, if my modeling was not improved as a 42-year-old over what it was as a 16-year-old, then there wouldn''t be much point in continuing. Even so, after doing this for over 35 years, I am still learning and growing.
My point is that, when a very good modeler (Newton) correctly observes that the teens who were offered as examples have a way to go before they reach the level of the masters listed here, it would be better for those teens to accept that fact and work toward improving instead of becoming angry and insulted.
TrainManTy Midnight Railroader TrainManTy Maybe you're right. That's just my view on it, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to you. I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings" I will bow out of this thread now, as I probably don't have the "skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience" to continue... See, that's the problem. We're teaching people that everyone's already a winner and every kid gets a trophy so we don't injure thier self-esteem.. So when a modeler with superior skills correctly says you have a way to go, you become insulted and have hurt feelings instead of simply admitting that he's right, and then go on to develop those skills and actually get to that high level of achievement. I never said they were wrong. I know my skills aren't up there with Grampy and Aggro and Joe Fugate, but then again, most of us aren't up there. You're comparing us to the hobby masters, who many of us (myself included) admire and know their skills are highly superior to our own. So, my skills aren't up there with the masters, and maybe they're downright poor. But... WHO CARES??? This hobby is supposed to be just that: a hobby! I don't model railroad so I can get really good about it and brag about my skills, I model railroad because it's FUN! I'm not upset about this; my self-esteem is fine. I'm just indignant about how people treat teens like me and many of my friends...
Midnight Railroader TrainManTy Maybe you're right. That's just my view on it, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to you. I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings" I will bow out of this thread now, as I probably don't have the "skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience" to continue... See, that's the problem. We're teaching people that everyone's already a winner and every kid gets a trophy so we don't injure thier self-esteem.. So when a modeler with superior skills correctly says you have a way to go, you become insulted and have hurt feelings instead of simply admitting that he's right, and then go on to develop those skills and actually get to that high level of achievement.
TrainManTy Maybe you're right. That's just my view on it, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to you. I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings" I will bow out of this thread now, as I probably don't have the "skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience" to continue...
Maybe you're right. That's just my view on it, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to you. I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings"
See, that's the problem. We're teaching people that everyone's already a winner and every kid gets a trophy so we don't injure thier self-esteem..
So when a modeler with superior skills correctly says you have a way to go, you become insulted and have hurt feelings instead of simply admitting that he's right, and then go on to develop those skills and actually get to that high level of achievement.
I never said they were wrong. I know my skills aren't up there with Grampy and Aggro and Joe Fugate, but then again, most of us aren't up there. You're comparing us to the hobby masters, who many of us (myself included) admire and know their skills are highly superior to our own.
So, my skills aren't up there with the masters, and maybe they're downright poor. But... WHO CARES??? This hobby is supposed to be just that: a hobby! I don't model railroad so I can get really good about it and brag about my skills, I model railroad because it's FUN!
I'm not upset about this; my self-esteem is fine. I'm just indignant about how people treat teens like me and many of my friends...
Midnight RailroaderTrainManTy Maybe you're right. That's just my view on it, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to you. I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings" I will bow out of this thread now, as I probably don't have the "skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience" to continue... See, that's the problem. We're teaching people that everyone's already a winner and every kid gets a trophy so we don't injure thier self-esteem.. So when a modeler with superior skills correctly says you have a way to go, you become insulted and have hurt feelings instead of simply admitting that he's right, and then go on to develop those skills and actually get to that high level of achievement.
Surely the logic of TrainManTy's belief means that he's as good as he's going to get. If my output as a 49 year-old hadn't improved in the 30 years since I've been a teenager, I'd be a worried man. I may have thought it was good, but looking back? Dearie me.
As Bill Gates was supposed to have commented: "Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools they may have abolished failing grades and they's give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life."
You've still got some learning and growing to do, son. Just like we all had.
Brian
TrainManTy marknewtonPackers#1We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others. I don't say this to hurt your feelings, but none of these examples are as good as the stuff built by us "older folks". Mark. ...And this proves that, even though that letter was printed 35 years ago, that attitude still exists among some of us today...
...And this proves that, even though that letter was printed 35 years ago, that attitude still exists among some of us today...
Yep. Years of experience might help, but teens can have just as much (or more) talent as you old guys in your 50s and 60s. What's a real shame is that ya'll are so blind w/ feeling superior to us teens, you won't open your eyes and accept that we can be right up there w/ ya'll.