davidmbedardAnother clarifiactrion. Argueing and Debating are 2 different things. Arguments are typically confrontational and usually don't end up with good results; ie, no winner. Debating is showing your side with facts. Debates are usually won or lost. This thread is an Arguement and not a Debate, hence, it will not end with any good results or clear winner.
I couldn't agree more, David. This thread is showing no -- and will have no -- clear winner. All we're doing is picking apart everyone's words.
Come on guys, let's get back on the same page. This has turned as nasty as politics... and at this point, I for one am sick of politics.
Let's move on. [Locked]
Bergie
El-Capitan,great shots of your kid working on the railroad. Funny how those little guys make HO seem larger. Thats real dedication,railroading in your jammies. BILL
Reminds me of the role playing games my kids did when they were taking history in the 4th grade in the 80s.
Midnight Railroader Here's MR's response to the original letter, as printed in the September, 1973 issue: "More than 250 letters have come to us in response to the Goodfellow letter. We think this will be an all-time record...Two of the letters supported Goodfellow. About one third of the remainder were from students." (The editor's comment was printed at the end of an angry letter from one of the "teeny-boppers," as Goodfellow called them.)
Here's MR's response to the original letter, as printed in the September, 1973 issue:
"More than 250 letters have come to us in response to the Goodfellow letter. We think this will be an all-time record...Two of the letters supported Goodfellow. About one third of the remainder were from students."
(The editor's comment was printed at the end of an angry letter from one of the "teeny-boppers," as Goodfellow called them.)
Sounds to me like the original letter was just published to drum up some interest in the mag. Get people talking about it. There is no other logical explanation.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
el-capitan,
Your pictures say it all!A young man dreaming and totally enthralled by what he sees before him."Men Dream, Machines Do, and from this the American Adventure is built!The age of men who dream is not relevant, young minds formulate some great ideas,and eventually we will hear from them somewhere down the rail line!!!!
If any of you youngsters out there read this, GO FOR IT!!!
Build a layout, it doesn't matter what it looks like, it's about the fun you have doing it!!Just remember we all had to start somewhere!I'm almost 58 years old. I started with an HO oval shaped layout, a gift I got for Christmaswhen I was about ten years old.I now have a larger, much nicer layout, but it doesn't matter what you start with.Have FUN, ENJOY, and you can always improve on your layout, this is what it's all about!
The K4Kid
davidmbedard New Haven I-5 Get the off my train table kids, NOW! Said the guy that wrote the nasty letter about the student corner ( whatever you call it). Be GOOD people! HUH? David B
New Haven I-5 Get the off my train table kids, NOW! Said the guy that wrote the nasty letter about the student corner ( whatever you call it). Be GOOD people!
Get the off my train table kids, NOW! Said the guy that wrote the nasty letter about the student corner ( whatever you call it).
Be GOOD people!
HUH?
David B
- Luke
Modeling the Southern Pacific in the 1960's-1980's
marknewtonSo you were a bit of a child prodigy, good on you. But do you reckon your case is in any way typical?
Nope, but no matter, I just don't like anyone telling anyone that they can't.
Anywho, in an attempt to lighten the mood, while still sticking to the original subject of kids not belonging in MR, Here are some picks of my previously mentioned 7 year old, Dylan. These were taken on Sunday. We got enough track in so I taught him how to run locals using car cards on Saturday night. All day Sunday he did nothing but run locals. The pictures show him on his 5th run of the day and judging by the pajamas, his shift has expired (past his bedtime) but I made an exception (wife was working) and let him stay up late to finish the job. Please excuse the partially finished buildings and complete lack of anything resembling scenery.
Well, model railroading isn't my only hobby, and I've been it since I was 10 years old. I also am a model airplane builder-flyer as well as a full scale private pilot.
I remember flying in model airplane contests as a kid along with another kid.His name was Burt Rutan, and he went on to design a lot of airplanes and one that flew into space to win the Ansari X-Prize, called Spaceship One.So much for kids in the hobby eh?
TheK4Kid
Yes, i saw how you worded it. I wasn't intending to criticize your post. sorry if it was taken like that.
I'm going to (hopefully) let go of this argument, debate, whatever it is. Looking back at the posts, the only thing I really had a problem with was the statement "No, you can't." I'm not sure why that bothers me so much.
Any popcorn left?
el-capitanThat may be what you believe but not what you said. You said: "Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience."
That may be what you believe but not what you said. You said: "Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience."
el-capitanThis statement appears condescending because you seem to be basing it only on the fact that he is a teenager, nothing else. If you are basing it on more, please let me know what you are basing it on.
This statement appears condescending because you seem to be basing it only on the fact that he is a teenager, nothing else. If you are basing it on more, please let me know what you are basing it on.
marknewton If you think that's condescending, you need to grow a thicker skin, or at least think a bit before you reply. I think it's interesting that you took offence to a comment that was not remotely directed at you, since you're presumably not a teenager?
If you think that's condescending, you need to grow a thicker skin, or at least think a bit before you reply. I think it's interesting that you took offence to a comment that was not remotely directed at you, since you're presumably not a teenager?
el-capitanI don't even know where to begin responding to this gem.
I don't even know where to begin responding to this gem.
selector Another well-placed post. Thanks, David.
Another well-placed post. Thanks, David.
If your done cheerleading, how about locking this mess?
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
BlueHillsCPRAs for not knowing you from a bar of soap, judging by your attitude here, I'm not terribly sorry about that.
As for not knowing you from a bar of soap, judging by your attitude here, I'm not terribly sorry about that.
As for lecturing, you've got it all wrong. If I were to presume to lecture you I would want it to be in person. This was no more than a reminder, however pointless, to act your age.
I hope these kids you mention have the opportunity to see your behavior toward this group of kids as well as the role you played for them.
What a pelican!
el-capitan This is the point I am getting at, you can't say absolutely that a teenager with 5 years experience is a worse modeler than one with 25 yrs experience. I know guys that have 40 years of experience in modeleing that I won't let near my layout while my 7 year old son runs it like a pro. heres a pic of the reefer that I built at 8 years old from an all-nation kit. I did everything from gluing the wood to airbrushing the parts. It's still on my layout, minus one brake wheel.
This is the point I am getting at, you can't say absolutely that a teenager with 5 years experience is a worse modeler than one with 25 yrs experience.
I know guys that have 40 years of experience in modeleing that I won't let near my layout while my 7 year old son runs it like a pro.
heres a pic of the reefer that I built at 8 years old from an all-nation kit. I did everything from gluing the wood to airbrushing the parts. It's still on my layout, minus one brake wheel.
In comparison, here is a picture of modelling done by Packers#1.
Photo was posted in the Weekend Photo Fun thread about three weeks ago.
Stein, who makes no claim about being a good (or even average) modeller - I am an utter novice, still learning, despite having a few grey hairs
davidmbedard One last thing. I can draw a parallel with Driving. 18 year old drivers think they are great drivers. None are as good as they will be 12 years down the road.......think about it.
One last thing. I can draw a parallel with Driving. 18 year old drivers think they are great drivers. None are as good as they will be 12 years down the road.......think about it.
True, but can you say absolutely that all 30 year old drivers are better than all 18 year old drivers?
Now here is a (poor quality) pic from the 1984 O scale national convention in Indianapolis. It shows the winners from all of the categories of the model contest. I would be the short guy in front. Not shown: All the geezers that lost.
I guess age does not always equal experience does not equal a better modeler.
I just hate telling anybody "No, you can't."
Don ZBlueHillsCPR, Perhaps you should return to Page 1 and actually read the posts....here is a copy of what our young member Packers#1 said regarding his and other teens talents: "We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others." Packers#1 is the one that fired the first shot in this mess, claiming that his skills are on equal grounds with all of the members here. He has then interpreted the following remarks to mean that the older modelers are better people than he is. Not true; the older modelers are trying to get him to understand that at present date, his skills are not equal to the older modelers with more experience. To make such a bold claim only helps to fan the flames of the fire..... Don Z.
BlueHillsCPR,
Perhaps you should return to Page 1 and actually read the posts....here is a copy of what our young member Packers#1 said regarding his and other teens talents:
"We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others."
Packers#1 is the one that fired the first shot in this mess, claiming that his skills are on equal grounds with all of the members here. He has then interpreted the following remarks to mean that the older modelers are better people than he is. Not true; the older modelers are trying to get him to understand that at present date, his skills are not equal to the older modelers with more experience. To make such a bold claim only helps to fan the flames of the fire.....
Don Z.
Don,
Packers#1 did not say that he and his friends could model as well as all of the members here. You read that into his statement. He did however say that, and I quote, "We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks."
Speaking as an older folk, I have to agree that he and his friends can build stuff just as good as I can.
Why is it that you and Mark, and some other older folks have to jump on these kids for enjoying the hobby and believing that they are good modelers. Isn't it enough that you are so skilled and experienced? Do you have to take issue at an offhand comment made by a teenager? He didn't mean anything by it and has said so a number of times now. Isn't it time to let it go?
This is one of those threads that should have been locked after the first post but the moderation here continues to mystify me at times. I should have posted a promo for the evil competitor...maybe I could have got the whole thread deleted that way!
marknewtonSince you don't know me from a bar of soap, you wouldn't know how I regard the "younger crowd". You wouldn't know about the bus trip I recently helped organise for a group of young railfans and modellers to visit a tourist railway up the coast from here.
marknewtonYou wouldn't know about the group of young members at my tramway museum whom we mentor, or the young friend of the family whom I helped get an apprenticeship with the railway I work for, so please don't presume to lecture me about being tolerant.
As for lecturing, you've got it all wrong. If I were to presume to lecture you I would want it to be in person. This was no more than a reminder, however pointless, to act your age.
jeffrey-wimberly Packers#1we're talking about a comment made in a mag about a quarter-century ago (2008-1973=25, right?). Add 10 to that. 35 years.
Packers#1we're talking about a comment made in a mag about a quarter-century ago (2008-1973=25, right?).
My bad. hey, i do have an 89 in math, lol.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
davidmbedard .....twas a bit thirsty!. Keep it up guys, I am enjoying this! David B
.....twas a bit thirsty!.
Keep it up guys, I am enjoying this!
Glad to see you like pepsi. i'm actually enjoying this too, I love me a good argument, it's just like Social studies class last year, lol, but instead of talking about something for social studies, we're talking about a comment made in a mag about a quarter-century ago (2008-1973=25, right?). I especially love arguing my point. You eating Orville Redenbacker Popcorn, David, or something else?
TrainManTy marknewton But respect, or acceptance in this case, has to be earned, not demanded. Acceptance among what? This forum? This hobby? I didn't know I needed permission from anybody to enjoy model railroading. Please clarify what you meant by this.
marknewton But respect, or acceptance in this case, has to be earned, not demanded.
But respect, or acceptance in this case, has to be earned, not demanded.
Acceptance among what? This forum? This hobby? I didn't know I needed permission from anybody to enjoy model railroading. Please clarify what you meant by this.
I think he meant (correct me if I'm wrong mark) that we have to earn our acceptance as a model railroading great or something like grampys or joe or Aggro (they sure pop up in this conversation a lot, don't they?). I think repect also channels into here. Like I said, I agree, you have to earn it. However, we ain't asking for it, just not come out and Dis-respect us (which doesn't happen a WHOLE lot, but still a little on here).
Don Z BlueHillsCPR, Perhaps you should return to Page 1 and actually read the posts....here is a copy of what our young member Packers#1 said regarding his and other teens talents: "We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others." Packers#1 is the one that fired the first shot in this mess, claiming that his skills are on equal grounds with all of the members here. He has then interpreted the following remarks to mean that the older modelers are better people than he is. Not true; the older modelers are trying to get him to understand that at present date, his skills are not equal to the older modelers with more experience. To make such a bold claim only helps to fan the flames of the fire..... Don Z.
Well, to rehash what I've since stated in 3 or 4 posts, I was referring to the AVERAGE modeler. Now can we please quit nagging me about that. My lord!
marknewtonBut respect, or acceptance in this case, has to be earned, not demanded.
BlueHillsCPRHey Mark,One thing. You stated your opinion. Having one does not make it a fact.
Hey Mark,
One thing. You stated your opinion. Having one does not make it a fact.
Another thing. Ease up on the young folks a bit. Without young modelers coming into the hobby the hobby will be dead in the water in no time.
Lastly. The way one person takes the comments of another is a personal thing. Lots of peoples feelings are hurt in these forums everyday by people who did not intend their words to be taken as insults, but it still happens. If you wanted to apologize for any misunderstanding of what you meant that's cool but it seems like that is not what you want to do.
Rather it seems you want to be sure to insult the lad now. I don't recall any of the teens stating that their skills were equal or better than those of someone with 45 years experience in the hobby as you suggest.
Honestly. Considering the what...50+ years life experience you have, you would think you could be a little more tolerant of the younger crowd.
marknewtonPackers#1 What's a real shame is that ya'll are so blind w/ feeling superior to us teens, you won't open your eyes and accept that we can be right up there w/ ya'll. I have no strong feelings for or against you "teens", I just take them as I find them. There's a young bloke I know who has just won the AALS Junior Trophy for his beautiful 5" gauge live steamer - I have no trouble accepting him as an accomplished modeller. But respect, or acceptance in this case, has to be earned, not demanded.
Packers#1 What's a real shame is that ya'll are so blind w/ feeling superior to us teens, you won't open your eyes and accept that we can be right up there w/ ya'll.
What's a real shame is that ya'll are so blind w/ feeling superior to us teens, you won't open your eyes and accept that we can be right up there w/ ya'll.
Mark:
What I meant by that is that ya'll shouldn't write us off the board as good just because we're young. I know that respect has to be earned, that's the way of life. I probably shoulda added that we can be as good as the AVERAGE modler. Like i said earlier, guys like Joe and grampys and Aggro are wAY better than me.
marknewton I believe that an experienced modeller will usually be better than an inexperienced one.
I believe that an experienced modeller will usually be better than an inexperienced one.
That may be what you believe but not what you said. You said:
marknewton Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience.
Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience.
This statement appears condescending because you seem to be basing it only on the fact that he is a teenager, nothing else. If you are basing it on more, please let me know what you are basing it on.
Research; it's not just for geeks.