Scratchbuilding...

[Railphotog]

I built my CN Wedge Plow from scratch because no commercial model of the prototype is available. Although it's not totally accurate I like it and it gave me the chance to practice some techniques I hadn't used before.

Nice plow!  I'm a plow enthusiast too, and have kitbashed many versions of CN and CP plows, but not this one.  I wanted a double ended CN plow model like they have at the Salem & Hillsborough Railroad in NB, so I had to scratchbuild one:

Scratchbuilding rolling stock is harder than structures because you need to be a whole lot more precise, no faking it.  I was able to see, photograph and measure the prototype of my plow at the above noted railway museum.

 

 

[cf-7]

cf-7 grows his own trees and mills his own lumber; I was wondering if you forged your own copper and zinc.

As a matter of fact, yes I do!  I planted 2 live oaks in the backyard this summer.  Maybe by 2025, I'll have myself some decent lumber to build a very small HO or N building with.  Just kiddin', of course!

R.T. - nothing against you, but this is one of those topics that can mean a lot of different things to different people.  No one is right or wrong here.  

 

[wm3798]

For some reason these discussions always catch the attention of the "holier than thou" set...

Although I agree that Driline's structure is more a bash from available components than a scratch project.  That doesn't diminish the fact that he has created a unique building that captures the essence of the prototype.

Here's my take on it...  

Kitbash - Taking parts from available kits and modifying or combining them to create a structure that's significantly different from the original kit.  I would include building from modular components in this definition.

i.e.

which got bashed into this:

To me, scratchbuilding involves using various materials, including commercially available sidings, shapes and detail parts to construct a completely unique structure based on plans that are either published or self-generated.

i.e.

Everything else is shades of gray.  Of course, your results may vary...

Lee

 

[howmus]

The NMRA defines Scratchbuilding at their website as follows:

"Scratchbuilt

To be considered scratchbuilt, a model must have been constructed by the applicant without the use of any commercial parts except

1. Motor
2. Gears
3. Drivers and wheels
4. Couplers
5. Light bulbs
6. Trucks
7. Bell
8. Marker and classification lights
9. Valve gear
10. Car brake fittings
11. Basic wood, metal and plastic shapes

A model is considered "scratchbuilt" if at least 90% of the model's pieces/parts (other than those specifically exempted in the list above) are fabricated by the modeler. This is a quantitative assessment based on the number of pieces with no weight given to complexity. This is a separate determination from the scratch building score.

If some points of the exempted parts are also scratchbuilt, the modeler may qualify for Bonus Points (see definition above)

The term "scratchbuilt" carries the implication that the builder alone has accomplished all of the necessary layout and fabrication which establish the final dimensions, appearance, and operating qualities of the scale model."

 In this scene the house, barn, and the Aermotor water pump are kits.  The tractor is an athearn Waterloo Boy.  The milkhouse (springhouse), silo, and silo blower/chopper w/ pipe are all scratchbuilt and should meet the NMRA definition.  Only the wheels on the blower were from a horse drawn wagon, and the roofing used on the silo and the milkhouse is from the barn kit.

 

[wm3798]

But I'm not a member of the NMRA!

The Basic Wood, Metal and Plastic shapes seems to cover me, although I do use commercial window castings.  But that's because I'm in N scale, and I'm not THAT patient.

 

Lee

[howmus]

But I'm not a member of the NMRA!

The Basic Wood, Metal and Plastic shapes seems to cover me, although I do use commercial window castings.  But that's because I'm in N scale, and I'm not THAT patient.

 

Lee

Just thought I would post an "official" definition.....  That is the one that I have to work by to have a model qualify for Merit Points.  BTW, you folks that scratchbuild in 'n' scale have my deepest admiration.  Some of the wok that I have seen done in that scale just blows my mind!

[marknewton]

The term 'scratchbuilt' means something different to me than others.  I don't think Driline's building is what I consider scratchbuilt.  While it is a nice building, the parts were basically bought and assembled.  Cutting a few holes for windows and doors is not the definition of scratchbuilt.  Now if the walls were cut individually from a sheet of whatever and few less premade castings were used, that would, to me, be scratchbuilt. 

That would also earn more points in a contest.  I understand that a lot of modelers don't care for contests, but that's the way the models are judged. 

Non sequitur. The way models are judged is only of interest to those who enter contests. To the rest of us, the criteria applied by the NMRA and similar organisations mean nothing at all. We define our own models, not contest judges

Sorry about the soap box thing, but I believe the term scratchbuilt is thrown around a little to freely.  Just ask the person who spent several hundred hours on a true scratchbuilt project.  They would agree. 

I've spent hundreds of hours on scratchbuilt projects, and I don't agree with you at all. I don't care who uses the term scratchbuilt, or how they throw it around. It doesn't take anything away from my modelling.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

But I'm not a member of the NMRA!

The Basic Wood, Metal and Plastic shapes seems to cover me, although I do use commercial window castings.  But that's because I'm in N scale, and I'm not THAT patient.

 

Lee

Just thought I would post an "official" definition.....

But one that's only relevant to the NMRA and its members. The rest of us are free to make our own definitions. My view is that a loco or car built according to the NMRA criteria is parts-built, not scratchbuilt!

Cheers,

Mark.

[cf-7]

Non sequitur. The way models are judged is only of interest to those who enter contests. To the rest of us, the criteria applied by the NMRA and similar organisations mean nothing at all. We define our own models, not contest judges

I've spent hundreds of hours on scratchbuilt projects, and I don't agree with you at all. I don't care who uses the term scratchbuilt, or how they throw it around. It doesn't take anything away from my modelling.

Cheers,

Mark.

Mark - That is why I clearly stated in the paragraph that I understand that a lot of folks don't do the contest thing.  I'm sorry that you don't seem to understand.

What can I say:  I'm also sorry you don't agree with me, but that is your opinion.  Just like I have my opinion.  

I can see why so many are run off of these boards.  If you state an opinion that isn't the popular one, all people want to do is trash you.  I am by no means an eliteist but after 35 years of modeling, contests, etc., I am pretty sure that I am entitled to have an opinion.  I guess it is best that I just go back to lurking or modeling, which is more fun anyway...

[wedudler]

Non sequitur. The way models are judged is only of interest to those who enter contests. To the rest of us, the criteria applied by the NMRA and similar organisations mean nothing at all. We define our own models, not contest judges

I've spent hundreds of hours on scratchbuilt projects, and I don't agree with you at all. I don't care who uses the term scratchbuilt, or how they throw it around. It doesn't take anything away from my modelling.

Cheers,

Mark.

Then I have a question. If you don't accept this NMRA definition, what's your definition of scratchbuild?

Scratchbuild a structure, an engine, a car?

Wolfgang

[marknewton]

Non sequitur. The way models are judged is only of interest to those who enter contests. To the rest of us, the criteria applied by the NMRA and similar organisations mean nothing at all. We define our own models, not contest judges

I've spent hundreds of hours on scratchbuilt projects, and I don't agree with you at all. I don't care who uses the term scratchbuilt, or how they throw it around. It doesn't take anything away from my modelling.

Mark - That is why I clearly stated in the paragraph that I understand that a lot of folks don't do the contest thing.  I'm sorry that you don't seem to understand.

Don't be sorry, I understand perfectly well the point you were trying to make. I also understand how irrelevant it is to the majority of modellers.

What can I say:  I'm also sorry you don't agree with me, but that is your opinion.  Just like I have my opinion.  

I can see why so many are run off of these boards.  If you state an opinion that isn't the popular one, all people want to do is trash you.

"Run off these boards"? You're just being a big girls blouse when you carry on like that. I've frequently posted comments and opinions that are unpopular, or gone against the consensus view, nobody's run me off. If you can't adequately argue your case that's your problem.

I am by no means an eliteist but after 35 years of modeling, contests, etc., I am pretty sure that I am entitled to have an opinion...

Yes, just as I'm entitled to disagree with it. But when you make derogatory comments about other people's work, and then state that you'll go back to lurking because you didn't get your way, that suggests to me that you are elitist.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

 

I buy my "lumber" at my local. Is your sawmill open for tours?

 

WOW - there is a classy response...

It's a response that's entirely justified...

[howmus]

Non sequitur. The way models are judged is only of interest to those who enter contests. To the rest of us, the criteria applied by the NMRA and similar organisations mean nothing at all. We define our own models, not contest judges

I've spent hundreds of hours on scratchbuilt projects, and I don't agree with you at all. I don't care who uses the term scratchbuilt, or how they throw it around. It doesn't take anything away from my modelling.

Cheers,

Mark.

Mark - That is why I clearly stated in the paragraph that I understand that a lot of folks don't do the contest thing.  I'm sorry that you don't seem to understand.

What can I say:  I'm also sorry you don't agree with me, but that is your opinion.  Just like I have my opinion.  

I can see why so many are run off of these boards.  If you state an opinion that isn't the popular one, all people want to do is trash you.  I am by no means an eliteist but after 35 years of modeling, contests, etc., I am pretty sure that I am entitled to have an opinion.  I guess it is best that I just go back to lurking or modeling, which is more fun anyway...

Absolutely!  I spend very little time over here due to the agumentative attitude of a few members.

Mark, you certainly have a right to your opinions.  Likewise the rest of us also have the right to state and have our opinions as well.  The NMRA, whether you are a member or not, is an organization that has done a great deal of "defining" of what our hobby is.  And no, you don't have to agree with their definitions.  I am a card carrying member who is working through the Achievement Program.  For me those are the definitions that count.

I was in no way trashing anyones opinions in the matter of scratchbuilding.  

BTW, I am very honored to meet someone who casts his own gears, wheels, valve gear and brake fittings.  Also one who makes his own armature windings and lightbulbs.  WOW!

I guess I'll mosey over across the street for a while.  Bye! 

[cf-7]

"Run off these boards"? You're just being a big girls blouse when you carry on like that. If you can't adequately argue your case that's your problem.

Yes, just as I'm entitled to disagree with it. But when you make derogatory comments about other people's work, and then state that you'll go back to lurking because you didn't get your way, that suggests to me that you are elitist.

Cheers,

Mark.

 

 Before I totally go away, I had to respond to this.  I should not need to argue my case because there isn't one to be argued.  I merely stated my opinion.

I have never made any kind of derogatory comments about anyones work.  I don't know where you get that. 

I also don't appreciate being called names.  I guess that just proves what kind of person you really are.

[marknewton]

Wolfgang, If we're talking about locos, then my definition of scratchbuild would not include buying in parts like trucks, bells, marker and classification lights, valve gear or brake fittings. It seems to me that the NMRA contradict themselves when they state:

"The term "scratchbuilt" carries the implication that the builder alone has accomplished all of the necessary layout and fabrication which establish the final dimensions, appearance, and operating qualities of the scale model."

One could easily argue that using commercial parts such as motors, wheels etc. means that the builder alone has NOT established the final dimensions, appearance and operating qualities.

But in the end, it hardly matters. The definition of scratchbuild is up to the individual. I don't have to accept what the NMRA says. Their definition is an integral part of their contest judging guidelines and the Achievement Program. I'm not involved with either, so their definition is irrelevant to me.

All the best,

Mark.

[marknewton]

 Before I totally go away, I had to respond to this.  I should not need to argue my case because there isn't one to be argued.  I merely stated my opinion.

Yes, and then you had a sulk when R. T. Poteet and I disagreed with your opinion.

I have never made any kind of derogatory comments about anyones work.  I don't know where you get that. 

I got it from this, the post where you had a shot at R.T. Poteet:

"You must be one of the ones that put 2 pieces of something together and calls it scratchbuilt."

You must have a short memory.

I also don't appreciate being called names.  I guess that just proves what kind of person you really are.

Yes, just as you have.

[marknewton]

Mark, you certainly have a right to your opinions.  Likewise the rest of us also have the right to state and have our opinions as well.

Was there any suggestion that you didn't? When people make blindingly obvious statements like this, what they usually mean is that they have a right to an opinion, and everyone else has the right to agree with them without question.

The NMRA, whether you are a member or not, is an organization that has done a great deal of "defining" of what our hobby is.

That's a very US-centric view, understandable enough, but it's not one that I share. the NMRA is only one organisation among many that I'm aware of, all of whom have set standards and defined the hobby.

And no, you don't have to agree with their definitions.  I am a card carrying member who is working through the Achievement Program.  For me those are the definitions that count.

Fair enough. But they don't count for anyone not working through the AP or entering contests, which is the point you seem to be ignoring.

BTW, I am very honored to meet someone who casts his own gears, wheels, valve gear and brake fittings.  Also one who makes his own armature windings and lightbulbs.

So you should be! :-)

I've built locos in scales ranging from HO through 5" gauge to 12' to the foot, and I've done all those things and more, except making my own lightbulbs. Anyone with the appropriate knowledge, skills and tools can do the same.

Cheers,

Mark.

[cf-7]

Mark - I don't understand you!  My comment to RT; how do you get I was bad mouthing anything he models?  Besides, that has to do with you, how?

The only kind of person that I made myself out to be is someone that has an opinion on this subject.  It just so happens that my opinion is in the minority.  That's fine because all it is is an opinion.  I never once made any kind of derogatory comment about anyones work.  You, sir, seem to be the type of person who just likes to stir things up and that is the type of person that ruins these boards.

Why do you want to call me names?  You don't even know me!  You are only entitled to do that if you knew me personally.  I'm am not lowering myself to your level by calling you names. 

Enough with this; it has become way to ridiculous.

[Midnight Railroader]

I've frequently posted comments and opinions that are unpopular, or gone against the consensus view, nobody's run me off. If you can't adequately argue your case that's your problem.

 What's the point in "arguing" a "case' when you never, ever admit you're wrong on this board?

[marknewton]

Your comment to RT was intended as a slight, nothing less. Having been chipped about it, you're going to act the aggrieved innocent. If that's how you feel, fair enough.

You reckon I'd call you names if only I knew you personally, eh? I suspect you're right!

All the best,

Mark.

[wedudler]

Yes, making your own wheels is great.

But many years ago I decided to buy not a lathe! My points were how much time would it take to learn making good wheels, flywheels and more. How much material would I spoil? You live only once.    

There're quite a few people who do their livings with such work. Who make a good running driving unit. For me there're many other things to build. And - very important - a layout to operate!

BTW, the NMRA definition for scratchbuild is a written one. It's not written in stone but it's published and anyone can tell where he goes far away and make more.

Wolfgang

[germanium]

Is it really that important to define scratchbuilding precisely ? Is the modeller who weathers a plastic building realistically any less of a modeller than someone who builds from scratch, apart from the satisfaction involved ? I would suggest that the end result and the satisfaction for the indiividual modeller are the important criteria. The route by which you get to your destination doesn't really matter. I personally couldn't care less about definitions, whether NMRA, Congress, or the King of Siam, has laid them down, I just want to enjoy the hobby.

We seem here to be arguing about "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin", an equally fruitless and pointless theological argument. So can we all agree to differ, and leave it at that?

Dennis 

 

[R. T. POTEET]

My quip to cf-7 was meant to be quasi-humorous and was engendered by what I felt was his(?)rather narrow definition of "scratchbuilding"--opinion on my behalf. Twenty years in the Air Force gave me a hardshell as far as criticism is concerned; it takes a lot more than cf-7 to raise the hackles on the back of my neck. 

[howmus]

Mark, when I posted I was hoping that the NMRA standard concerning the subject would be helpful in the "discussion".  I was not not looking for an argument! (Arguments are next door in room 12a!)  I did not imply in any way that my view was the only one.  However in a discussion it is usually important to have some anchor to what is being discussed.  I posted only to state a widely accepted view of the term "scratchbuilding".  And yes, your tone of confrontation does suggest that others are not entitled to their opinions when they differ from yours not only in this thread but in many others as well.  I came here to disuss the topic not argue with people.

You are right that there are several organizations that have added to the body of knowledge worldwide for modelrailroading.  I would be interested to see their definition of the term scratchbuilding as well.  BTW, The NMRA is divided into 17 Regions which cover the United States, Australasia, Canada and the British Isles plus Netherlands.  It is not exclusive to the US.

Very, very few MRs have the knowledge, skills, and tools to do the type of work that you have done. I do like and respect your work.  It is very much a cut above the rest!

[wm3798]

Mark,

It's time to put up or shut up.  Photos of your handiwork, please.  No excuses.  If you're going to sit in your ivory tower, we'd like to see some evidence.

Thanks.

Lee

[Autobus Prime]

Mark,

It's time to put up or shut up.  Photos of your handiwork, please.  No excuses.

WM:

In the interest of fair play and (I hope) heading off some of the unpleasantness I have run into on r.m.r., I want to state that Mark N. does do excellent work, and has posted pictures here now and again. Can we please put the arguments aside? This is a good subject.

[wm3798]

I'm sure Mark is a craftsman of the highest order.  But for the benefit of those of us who may not have basked in the glow of his work, I think it's only fair for him to back up his bluster with some photographic evidence.  Lord knows we see enough also-ran work on these pages, it would be nice to see a genuine master at work, particularly one who feels so strongly about the superiority of his methods...

When I post about my techniques, I try to provide a look at what it is I'm writing about.  I don't purposefully denigrate anyone else's work, but when I offer a critique, I try to show an example to help others understand what I mean.

A friend of mine on another board scratch builds to a pretty high order, etching parts and assembling models of steam locomotives in N and Z scales.  In some cases, he builds the frame and assembles his own gear trains.  As you can see, he's not shy about sharing his accomplishments.

So come on out of the shadows, Mark.  Blow us all away.

Lee

 

 

[IRONROOSTER]

Is it really that important to define scratchbuilding precisely ? ...

Dennis 

 

Since scratchbuilding adds a certain cachet to the model, at least for some folks, the definition becomes important, at least to them. In my opinion, the NMRA (and I have been a member for over 30 years) fudges the definition for practicality. 

That's why I call mine scratch/parts building, I avoid the whole issue and can use what's available only "scratching" what I have to.

Enjoy

Paul 

[0-6-0]

Hello I am getting  into scratchbuilding more and more just for the fun and the challenge of making something from nothing. But it would be easier if I could find blueprints for what I am building. I have the seen in my head but have a hard time getting it to my hands. So it takes a while to get it right. What kind of stuff do you keep on hand ,tools,material,plains? Thanks Frank

[wm3798]

Well, obviously you need to grind your own pulp into paper, smash berries to make some ink, then whittle a scale ruler out of a bar of soap, then you can draw your own plans, provided you can grow a quill on your back that can be plucked for that purpose...

I mean, if we're going to carry the subject to it's logical extreme...

Lee