I know that this topic comes up from time to time and I'm not looking for people to identify themselves as scratch builders. Instead, I'm just curious as to your opinion of scratchbuilding as it relates to the hobby today. It seems to me that we have an abundance of kits of all kinds... rolling stock, all kinds of structures, etc. Not to mention also that there is a very large variety of all kinds of locomotives available today. Add to that the whole line of laser kits on the market and it seems to me that there doesn't appear to be much of a need for scratchbuilding today.
I'm not sure when I remember reading an article in MODEL RAILROADER that was specifically about scratchbuilding. I'm not talking about super-detailing; those kinds of articles do seem to appear from time to time. I'm thinking more along the line of the old E. L. Moore paper buildings that he was so adept at creating. Even the "kit minglings" of Art Curren seem to not be as popular today as they were back then.
I'm drawing this conclusion because I'm looking for some drawings of some buildings to scratchbuild from plastic siding, roofing and pre-cast windows & doors. But to be honest, I really can't find any. A post here didn't get me anywhere with tower plans. A MR book that I bought has a couple of them but it's an older book and, given the number of towers that dotted the country at one time... there should be more out there somewhere.
So do we direct the collective model railroading press or do they direct us? Or to put it another way... are there fewer articles on the subject because there is less interest OR is there less interest in the subject because there are fewer articles?
Opinions?
dlm
Actually we have fewer kits today than we did 20 years ago. The majority of cars acome RTR, there are very few if any diesel locomotive kits, and the only steam kits are those that have been in production for decades (with some upgrades). About the only thing still in kit form extensively are buildings. there is a tremendous variety of track options, so handlaying isn't as much a priority (although the Fast Tracks jig system seems to be popular).
There is also and INCREDIBLE variety of cars. I remember the excitement because Athearn was making 3 new twin hoppers, that was amazing because all we had were cast metal Ulrich cars, the Varney USRA twin, the Roundhouse ???? triple and the Athearn offset quad. That was it. Now we have probably 20-30 varieties of plastic hopper cars. 40 ft steel boxcars? all you had was the Athearn and Roundhouse cars plus a Train Miniature X29. There are dozens of varieties of 40 ft boxcars now.
Kitbashing is down because you just don't have to kitbash as much. In 1978 there weren't any RS3's and maybe one SD40 model. Most of the diesels were pretty bad runners. If you wanted a GP40, SD35, SD40, you had to kitbash it. Now you just buy it right out of the factory, detailed for your variation.
Scratchbuilding seems to be on the edges. Some areas its pretty much a necessity. if you model any time prior to WW1 you are pretty much SOL from the major manufacturers, they just don't make anything applicable. The Only big company that even tries is the former Roundhouse line (which has been in production making almost pre-WW1 cars for over 30 years). None of the more modern plastic model manufacturers has made a wooden truss rod car for the any time prior to WW1. So everything is either scratchbuilt or craftsman kits (which has supported the era).
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
"Sctarchbuilding"?
Scratchbuilding! and kitbashing in the past was necessary if you wanted something that was not commercially available. Either you made it yourself or you did without, at least that was the case with my modeling. I live in Canada and many of the stuff I saw on the rails was not availble in model form, so I started doing them myself. No CN SD40-2's with wide cabs were to be found, so I added Canadian Prototype Replicas wide cabs to Athearn models. The same for SD40's, GP38s, etc. While these still aren't available from the mainstream firms, complete resin shells are. I am interested in MOW equipment and had to kitbash old British made Tri-Ang Russell snow plows into Canadian versions. Nothing suitable was available for a CN double ended plow that I saw locally, so I scratchbuilt one.
I scratchbuilt structures because what I wanted wasn't available, or if something close was, it cost way more than I was interested in paying. I follow another forum whose members are mostly into structures, but most of them would rather buy and sometimes assemble the expensive craftsman kits. I doubt if many of them would bother to scratchbuild, as they enjoy doing the kits.
Times have changed, more stuff is now available meaning there is less need to scratchbuild and/or kitbash like there was in the past.
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
I would point out once again that one should not jump too quickly to any conclusions based simply on what one sees here, or in a limited selection of general forums. The same goes for looking through just MR. There is plenty of kitbashing and scratchbuilding going on today, as evidenced by carefully searching out forums that cater to these interests. Few of those folk seem to choose to participate in the general and entry-level forums either, so it makes it falsely appear that their numbers are vanishingly small. They are not.
Of course, as Bob B. rightly points out, there is indeed a far greater selection of RTR and well made plastic kits available today, as compared to in the past, so it is not a necessity today that one build much of his own infrastructure for the layout. However, I feel that the lack of scratcbuilding articles in MR is less a result of this than it is due to MR's shifting its focus in recent years increasingly toward those readers with just a modest or entry-level interest in the hobby, as well as toward the pushing of advertisers' ready-built products in it pages. MR is a business and as such needs to cater to both side of what it precieves as its most profitable sources in the way of audience and advertisers, so this is hardly an unexpected trend. On the other hand, take a look at RMC and you'll find not only an entirely different aim to the magazine (serving the craftsman hobbyist) but a decidely different selection of advertisers leaning much more toward "builders".
The majority of older and more accomplished modelers whom I am acquainted with continue to kitbash and scratchbuild a highly significant portion of their layouts' buildings and structural elements, thereby producting truly unique layouts. It's just not the way everyone looks at this multifaceted hobby.
CNJ831
danmerkel wrote: I know that this topic comes up from time to time and I'm not looking for people to identify themselves as scratch builders. Instead, I'm just curious as to your opinion of scratchbuilding as it relates to the hobby today. It seems to me that we have an abundance of kits of all kinds... rolling stock, all kinds of structures, etc. Not to mention also that there is a very large variety of all kinds of locomotives available today. Add to that the whole line of laser kits on the market and it seems to me that there doesn't appear to be much of a need for scratchbuilding today.I'm not sure when I remember reading an article in MODEL RAILROADER that was specifically about scratchbuilding. I'm not talking about super-detailing; those kinds of articles do seem to appear from time to time. I'm thinking more along the line of the old E. L. Moore paper buildings that he was so adept at creating. Even the "kit minglings" of Art Curren seem to not be as popular today as they were back then.I'm drawing this conclusion because I'm looking for some drawings of some buildings to scratchbuild from plastic siding, roofing and pre-cast windows & doors. But to be honest, I really can't find any. A post here didn't get me anywhere with tower plans. A MR book that I bought has a couple of them but it's an older book and, given the number of towers that dotted the country at one time... there should be more out there somewhere.So do we direct the collective model railroading press or do they direct us? Or to put it another way... are there fewer articles on the subject because there is less interest OR is there less interest in the subject because there are fewer articles?Opinions?dlm
Whats the big deal?
You find that there are no commercially available built buildings of a prototype needed on your layout. You go out, buy the stuff, build it and your done!
Like this... I needed a Yard depot specific to Bettendorf. There was none, so I built it from scratch using walthers available vendors in their catalog. Plastic walls, windows, doors, paper roof shingles, etc. etc.
And done...
There is another element to scratchbuilding, and that's cost. While there are a great variety of kits and built up structures, many of them run $30 to $50, and some a lot more than that.
With a bundle of relatively inexpensive Evergreen sheet and strip stock, and a hand full of window and door details, plus some creativity in approaching other details, You can do some amazing things for a fraction of the cost of a kit. The added benefit is that you end up with a project that is 100% unique to your layout. Frankly, I get weary of seeing "Redwing Milling" or "Brach's Candy" in every layout feature that I read.
As for available plans, don't be so picky. They are getting hard to find. However, there are on-line resources ranging from railfan sites to state universities that provide an almost infinite supply of photo references of just about any structure imaginable. If you can find a photo or several photos, you can usually fudge the dimensions to get the proportions correct, and just lay out the plans yourself. A lot of times if the photo is clear enough, you can estimate dimensions by counting courses of brick (usually 2-1/2" - 3" per course) or the number of clapboards (typically 4-5" each). Once you get the hang of it, you can start building believable buildings quickly and affordably.
Here's a couple I did following this method...
MY Tower
Train order office at Shaw
84 Lumber
While it's nice to be as accurate as possible, we're building a model train layout here, not filing for a building permit!
I believe there's an article about this in one of the recent Building Realistic Layouts series from our hosts. I believe it's written by Tony the K in the Freight Yards edition.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Here is what is great about scratchbuilding and -- to a lesser extent -- kitbashing:
You get something original.
For me, a bit of the magic is always lost when I can look at a layout and say, "Oh, that's Walther's New River Mining Company" or "There's DPM's Front Street Building."
If it's a kit, IMHO, you need to alter it enough to make it your own.
Or -- you can scratchbuild and just it your own, period!
Craig
DMW
That's one of the reasons I subscribe to RMC along with MR--the former magazine is more devoted to the kit-basher/scratch-builder. For instance, in this months issue of RMC, there's a fine article on how Dick Roberts used ME components to kit/scratch a very impressive viaduct in Northern California (of course he admits it took him six years to do it). Also, there was an interesting article on how to turn a Bachmann On30 2-4-4 Forney into an 0-4-0 Docksider. The magazine is usually chock-full of articles on kit-bashing/scratch-building.
And MR itself has been doing some very interesting things of late on the same subject. So I'd say that there IS a strong component still in the hobby interested in doing one-of-a-kind projects or modifying kit-available models to suit their own needs.
For myself, I'm an inveterate kit-basher, even if it's just little details on certain buildings or locomotives or rolling stock. I've even tried my hand at scratch-building--though admittedly not that much--but it's a whole new adventure.
And if you think it's becoming a 'dead' Art, all you have to do is look at almost any WPF thread on any weekend and see just how MANY fellow modelers do this as a matter of course.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Before I go further let me address comments to Driline and we3798: outstanding job fellers! Outstanding job!
Now, danmerkel, you need to read between the lines; I will agree that there are not nearly as many "pure" scratchbuilding articles in the hobby press today as there were say, forty years ago. There also does not appear to be as many drawings of structures as in past days. Today one is very likely to read an article, however, describing how the author modified a particular kit to create a unique model. Those modifications will, of necessity, embrace a number of time-honored scratchbuilding techniques and these are worthy of note.
Driline's displayed model started as a photograph of a structure which he wished to model. Knowing the width of doors and windows can give one a reference for other dimensions on the building and from there one can proceed to lay things out. Using a router I squared off a hardwood cutting board and then routed a .025 inch deep designing rectangle on the inside; with this I can put a sheet of plastic or wood into the inside corners and lay out my dimensions using a machinist's square against the outside edges. My techniques need some polishing to be sure but I feel that I have improved over the years and since I elect not to go into layout building for a few years structures are going to be my forte for the next little while.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
There are many plans for scratchbuilding in the older issues of MR as well as RMC and the NGSL Gazette. I enjoy scratch building because it enables me to have unique structures and rolling stock instead of the mass produced ones seen on many layouts. Even some of the craftsman kits are becoming easily recognizable on many layouts.
As far as supplies are concerned, there are many detail parts available through online suppliers. Arts & crafts stores are another source of supplies and most larger ones put some LHSs to shame when it comes to scratchbuilding supplies.
I am currently scratch building an Ho scale barn...
and I have scratchbuilt a few other things. I like scratchbuilding better then putting kits together but I do both.
What kind of tower plans are You looking for? I have some plans for an interlocking tower I think they were printed in 1939.
The term 'scratchbuilt' means something different to me than others. I don't think Driline's building is what I consider scratchbuilt. While it is a nice building, the parts were basically bought and assembled. Cutting a few holes for windows and doors is not the definition of scratchbuilt. Now if the walls were cut individually from a sheet of whatever and few less premade castings were used, that would, to me, be scratchbuilt.
That would also earn more points in a contest. I understand that a lot of modelers don't care for contests, but that's the way the models are judged.
What I don't like is when someone glues two pieces of cut up body shells together and calls it scratchbuilt. Nothing could be further from the truth. Another favorite is when something is built using 2 small pieces of styrene and the person claims it as scratchbuilt. Wow; whats' next, assembling an Athearn BB kit and calling it scratchbuilt because a tool was used!
Sorry about the soap box thing, but I believe the term scratchbuilt is thrown around a little to freely. Just ask the person who spent several hundred hours on a true scratchbuilt project. They would agree.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
I really like kitbashing scratchbuilding. Its a great skill for modeling, and I you need need some important like a bridge, thats very small, you have to pull out some styrene, or wood, etc. Kitbashing freight cars is one of my favorites, I really like transfer cabooses, escpially the N11 caboose from Penn Central, later conrail, and amtrak owned a few.No one has a kit for it so I'm in the process of building one now.
Whats a forum without pictures?
My bridge
Tjsingle
There're a few points, like others posted:
* cost
*available
and - don't forget it -
* fun.
For my station Naumburg I build a prototype structure. I had to scratchbuild.
.
For my freelanced module Diamond Valley it was pure fun and satisfaction to finish the station.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
Sometimes you have no choice whatsoever but to scratchbuild. That was my situation in 2003, when I wanted to depict a harbor-front travelling bridge crane used for unloading Great Lakes freighters at steel mills. And I had to use brass for 95% of it because styrene would simply not have the structural riigidity I wanted.
Proto:
Model:
Took a year of evenings and weekends, but the result was worth it IMHO. [Interestingly, 6 weeks after I displayed my model at a mini-con in Pennsylvania, Walthers announced their own kit of a similar structure! ]
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
cf-7 wrote: The term 'scratchbuilt' means something different to me than others. I don't think Driline's building is what I consider scratchbuilt. While it is a nice building, the parts were basically bought and assembled. Cutting a few holes for windows and doors is not the definition of scratchbuilt. Now if the walls were cut individually from a sheet of whatever and few less premade castings were used, that would, to me, be scratchbuilt. That would also earn more points in a contest. I understand that a lot of modelers don't care for contests, but that's the way the models are judged. What I don't like is when someone glues two pieces of cut up body shells together and calls it scratchbuilt. Nothing could be further from the truth. Another favorite is when something is built using 2 small pieces of styrene and the person claims it as scratchbuilt. Wow; whats' next, assembling an Athearn BB kit and calling it scratchbuilt because a tool was used!Sorry about the soap box thing, but I believe the term scratchbuilt is thrown around a little to freely. Just ask the person who spent several hundred hours on a true scratchbuilt project. They would agree.
I buy my "lumber" at my local. Is your sawmill open for tours?
CSX_road_slug wrote: Sometimes you have no choice whatsoever but to scratchbuild. That was my situation in 2003, when I wanted to depict a harbor-front travelling bridge crane used for unloading Great Lakes freighters at steel mills. And I had to use brass for 95% of it because styrene would simply not have the structural riigidity I wanted. Proto: Model: Took a year of evenings and weekends, but the result was worth it IMHO. [Interestingly, 6 weeks after I displayed my model at a mini-con in Pennsylvania, Walthers announced their own kit of a similar structure! ]
Did you buy that brass at the hobby shop or did you forge it yourself?
AND YOU HAVE THE EFFRONTERY TO CAll YOURSELF A SCRATCHBUILDER!
R. T. POTEET wrote: I buy my "lumber" at my local. Is your sawmill open for tours?
WOW - there is a classy response. No wonder I've been a member of this board for several years and have very few posts. I did not mean to offend you, but obviously I did. You must be one of the ones that put 2 pieces of something together and calls it scratchbuilt.
R. T. POTEET wrote: CSX_road_slug wrote: Sometimes you have no choice whatsoever but to scratchbuild. That was my situation in 2003, when I wanted to depict a harbor-front travelling bridge crane used for unloading Great Lakes freighters at steel mills. And I had to use brass for 95% of it because styrene would simply not have the structural riigidity I wanted. Proto: http://trainweb.org/ironbelt/ore_bridge_01/ore_bridge_zug_island.jpgModel:http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/CSX_road_slug/IronBeltBlastFurnace01/ore_bridge-1.jpg Took a year of evenings and weekends, but the result was worth it IMHO. [Interestingly, 6 weeks after I displayed my model at a mini-con in Pennsylvania, Walthers announced their own kit of a similar structure! ] Did you buy that brass at the hobby shop or did you forge it yourself?AND YOU HAVE THE EFFRONTERY TO CAll YOURSELF A SCRATCHBUILDER!
CSX_road_slug wrote: Sometimes you have no choice whatsoever but to scratchbuild. That was my situation in 2003, when I wanted to depict a harbor-front travelling bridge crane used for unloading Great Lakes freighters at steel mills. And I had to use brass for 95% of it because styrene would simply not have the structural riigidity I wanted. Proto: http://trainweb.org/ironbelt/ore_bridge_01/ore_bridge_zug_island.jpgModel:http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/CSX_road_slug/IronBeltBlastFurnace01/ore_bridge-1.jpg Took a year of evenings and weekends, but the result was worth it IMHO. [Interestingly, 6 weeks after I displayed my model at a mini-con in Pennsylvania, Walthers announced their own kit of a similar structure! ]
http://trainweb.org/ironbelt/ore_bridge_01/ore_bridge_zug_island.jpg
R.T. - ROTFLMAO! Can't sneak nuthin' past you eh? Yep, K&S brass from my [now gone] LHS.
I scratchbuilt this HO scale machine shop many years ago. I wanted the interior well detailed so I could take photos like this. There wasn't anything remotely like it available at the time (nor since), and it was an excercise in model building for me. The structure was made board by weathered board, and the large shop machines were scratchbuilt from styrene sheet, shapes, and other parts. It was an enjoyable project and I've gotten a lot of use out of it since. Can't say that about a pre-made structure!
(click on photo to enlarge)
Bob,
Thought I recognized the interior... isn't that the same one on your web site, only from a different angle?
It wasn't my intention to start a flame war here with the original comments & questions. We probably all have a different understanding of "scratchbuilding," and I'd guess that none of them are 100% right or 100% wrong.
The degree of complexity doesn't have anything to do with the definition either... if I make a scratchbuilt pallet out of toothpicks, it is just as scratchbuilt as the guy who builds a scale 300' trestle out of sticks he found in his backyard. The project is by far more complex but not "more scratchbuilt..." at least in my way of thinking.
Define scratchbuilding any way you want to but that definition doesn't have to apply to everyone else. If you develop your own plans, your own ideas or even your own materials, it still sounds like scratchbuilding to me.
Have fun! This is just a hobby...
I built my CN Wedge Plow from scratch because no commercial model of the prototype is available. Although it's not totally accurate I like it and it gave me the chance to practice some techniques I hadn't used before.
CSX_road_slug wrote: R. T. POTEET wrote: CSX_road_slug wrote: Sometimes you have no choice whatsoever but to scratchbuild. That was my situation in 2003, when I wanted to depict a harbor-front travelling bridge crane used for unloading Great Lakes freighters at steel mills. And I had to use brass for 95% of it because styrene would simply not have the structural riigidity I wanted. Proto: http://trainweb.org/ironbelt/ore_bridge_01/ore_bridge_zug_island.jpgModel:http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/CSX_road_slug/IronBeltBlastFurnace01/ore_bridge-1.jpg Took a year of evenings and weekends, but the result was worth it IMHO. [Interestingly, 6 weeks after I displayed my model at a mini-con in Pennsylvania, Walthers announced their own kit of a similar structure! ] Did you buy that brass at the hobby shop or did you forge it yourself?AND YOU HAVE THE EFFRONTERY TO CAll YOURSELF A SCRATCHBUILDER!R.T. - ROTFLMAO! Can't sneak nuthin' past you eh? Yep, K&S brass from my [now gone] LHS.
I had just got done quipping to cf-7 and I immediately encountered your response. I drooled for five minutes; outstanding modeling there podnah. Most of my scratchbuilding has been done with wood; one day in the future I'm going to give brass a turn.
cf-7 grows his own trees and mills his own lumber; I was wondering if you forged your own copper and zinc.
Reminds me a bit of the story of the guy who visited a toothpick factory in the Ozarks. What he found on the tour was a series of mile long concrete lined ditches. Making the toothpicks consisted of rolling limbed trees into the ditches and letting them roll back and forth from rim to rim until the concrete had sanded the tree into a toothpick; then they did it all again.