Dude, don't short yourself on your track. If you want to handlay, then do it. I decided that I wanted to, after being so afraid of it all my life. It REALLY isn't hard. Its actually a ton of fun. The hardest thing is getting your foot in the door with it.
Don't forget about Andy's Proto87 Stores for other handlaid track/turnout options. He uses the Central Valley tie-strips, which actually save a lot of time and effort. Plus, they already have spikehead and tie plate detail molded in. You can string together 10 foot long sections of track at once, and not have to worry about some of the ties falling off the masking tape, lol.
Price-wise, its pretty even with Fast Tracks. However, you are getting super-detailed frogs that, imo, look a LOT better than regular rail-made ones like you would get with the Fast Tracks. Also, Andy pre-mills the points for you. They are planed like the prototype so you don't have to notch your stock rails. Plus, you don't even have to use spikes if you don't want to.
www.proto87.com
The only downside is that they don't have the infinity-of-use factor that the Fast Tracks jigs do. But then again, buying the Fast Tracks jigs only makes sense if you're going to need more than 15 of any one turnout. If you want to go Fast Tracks, honestly I think the best thing is to get their Twist Ties kits. You get enough stuff to make 6 turnouts, and save quite a bit compared to buying the aluminum jig kits.
luvadj wrote: there are few of us who can afford to go out and get everything in one shot.
ereimer wrote:it's pretty obvious from the original post that Waxonwaxoff only buys the highest quality tools and supplies . $99 Hi Point indeed , he wouldn't be caught dead with such a cheap gun !
it's pretty obvious from the original post that Waxonwaxoff only buys the highest quality tools and supplies . $99 Hi Point indeed , he wouldn't be caught dead with such a cheap gun !
Emphasis (and juxtaposition) added by me. Bob, Ernie - lovely comments! Applause
Grin, Stein
stebbycentral wrote: And at each step in the process he included the actual cost of the particular item of woodworking machinery required to complete the operation; table saw, power planer, custom mortising tool, router table, power sander, ect. At the end he tallied it all up, with material cost, to explain why these two doors about 18" x 36" in size cost exactly $2,856.75 to manufacture.
It all depends on how you figure it. If he ONLY built the two cabinet doors he'd be correct.
I have sunk about $200 in tools ($350 if you count the air compressor) and $150 in materials to cast my own resin cars. If I topped after 1 car it would be a $500 car. But since Ive used teh aircompressor for about 10 years and have made roughly 25 resin cars that brings it down to less than $20 a car. Thrown in that I have been able to sell some of my excess cars, that drops it to about $8 a car. by the time i finish my next batch of cars ir will average out to about $5 a car.
You have to look at tools as a long term investment.
Amortization.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
loathar wrote:Why waist $700 on Glock when a $99 Hi Point 9mm would work just fine at that close a range??
Why waist $700 on Glock when a $99 Hi Point 9mm would work just fine at that close a range??
ernie
Mike
You're starting from ground zero!? did your house blow up?
You dont need to buy everything at once, in fact you probably shouldn't. Baby steps are the key to not becoming overwhelmed and giving up. $1500 spread over a couple of years won't be so bad.
My friend, it's all relative. A co-worker who recently retired came back to the office a few months ago to give a little slide presentation one lunch hour. He entitled it "How to build a pair of book-matched cabinet doors for only $2,856.75." In this very tongue-in-cheek presentation he went through the mechanical process of assembling two raised-panel cabinet doors from raw lumber. And at each step in the process he included the actual cost of the particular item of woodworking machinery required to complete the operation; table saw, power planer, custom mortising tool, router table, power sander, ect. At the end he tallied it all up, with material cost, to explain why these two doors about 18" x 36" in size cost exactly $2,856.75 to manufacture. So as you can see, there are plenty of other ways to throw away your money.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
twhite wrote: Waxon--I'd cross the last item off of your list if I were you.
Waxon--
I'd cross the last item off of your list if I were you.
He's right, you know.. We, on this forum, strive to BUY AMERICAN whenever possible.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
I did much the same: armchaired for years and finally plunked down some money to get started. I spent around $1000 all told and only got a small 14" wide 7' X 9' 'L' shelf layout.
However, much of the money was for a few specialty tools, some building kits, and a loco and a few cars, all of which will be in use for years. I plan to reuse the track and as much of the wiring as possible if not all of it when the 'big' layout gets built, probably starting next summer.
The rest of the money was spent on track and roadbed, a variety of scenic materials, wire and connectors. A lot of it I could have done without, but figured I'll need it sooner or later.
If you take into account the fact that tool purchases are pretty much a one time expense, the real consumable budget is relatively small: scenic materials and track/roadbed.
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I stopped construction when I realized that I could make a decent room in the back of my garage, so my scenic materials remain unused, the kits are as yet unbuilt, but valuable experience was gained by learning track laying and wiring.
Luckily, I already have quite a few basic woodworking tools, and recently inherited more. I use carefully broken down skid wood for many projects that won't be highly visible, but sometime you can even find some pretty nice hardwood to use depending on the size of the material needed (you have to avoid the nail holes, so length is limited).
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Skids can be had for free merely by asking at many places, frequently they're just thrown out. You have to be picky in the ones you take, and you should do it during warmer months, since they're very popular with people who burn wood for heat who use the wood for kindling.
One can easily use these to build benchwork, where no one else will see the wood once the layout's ready for viewing. Start looking behind small businesses fo skid piles, and if you know someone with a pickup truck, you're all set. I dissasemble mine with a reciprocating saw. Cheap ones can be had for $50 or less on sale. Buy a package of extra metal cutting blades.
This wood would be easily suitable for risers, L-girders, and bracing. I've made shelf brackets for my current 'L' layout that look quite nice with quite a bit of sanding, some dark stain, and gloss Varathane.
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Also I learned to use my spacial limitations to my advantage: A mid sized layout will only need limited cash outlay for control systems, track (turnouts are the major expense, obviously) and rolling stock. I don't need any more than four or five locos to fill my operational plans, and the rolling stock will be similarly meagre. It's only a small layout, I can't run 100 car coal drags!
Good luck with the track laying, it's a bit ambitious for me, but you seem to have a good handle on it so far.
tatans wrote:I would think that $1500 is a good start, wait till you have to spend $88,000.00 on locos and cars and kits and sound and and and -----also be glad you are not starting a new job, low pay, no benefits, no chance for advancement, and an incredibly boring job, the trains will make life bearable.
Another Psychology major working for Starbucks?
hi
Ditto. I am starting a new 4x8 layout and i know what its like starting for the first time!!
-Tim
When I started handlaying, all I had was rail, spikes, ties, pc ties, needlenose pliers, a file, solder, soldering iron, flux, an NMRA gauge, and two 3-point gauges...worked well. Now I use the fast tracks jig. The best money I spent was not on the jig, but on the point and frog filing tool and on the stock rail filing tool. These sped up the process so much. On my current layout I am using code 83 Atlas flex and using rail from the flex track to make my turnouts. This is the cheapest combination that I could come up with and it looks great. BTW, I use homasote for all of my mainline and yard trackage, but I use cork for my sidings. This allows sidings to be at a lower level than the mainline.
If I were you, I would order those two filing tools now and practice w/o the jig, especially since you only need 10 turnouts. Get the jig later (if you still want it) when you have more in your budget.
bnsf76
WW:
I think, last time I laid track, this is what I had:
-Rail
-Ties
-Spikes
-plain Jane needlenose pliers
-a file from some garage sale
-two three-point gauges
-an NMRA gauge
-a Wen soldering gun from some garage sale, 50 cents. I still have it. I LOVE my Wen.
-Solder from the hardware store.
Basically, all I bought for track purposes included the ties, the gauges, and the spikes. I have to admit the rail was salvaged. Nowadays I'd probably try to get some PC board ties for the throw bar, and I now have a Xuron tool which I really really like. It can be done cheaply, however, even if you jump right into handlaying. It had to be. I was young, and I wasn't made of money, so most of my tools were from garage sales or auctions. You know the old saying: use up, wear out, make do, or outbid the Amish at the farm sale.
It can be done.
fwright wrote: Starting from zero is the pits. Benchwork and track and tools cost, and are all needed upfront. The typical "starter" 4x8, with a loop of commercial track and 4 turnouts is impossible to bring in at less than $500 if starting from scratch for tools and equipment. Especially, if one wants to add a couple of structures. Minimum is more like $800, and true costs from scratch go up from there.
Starting from zero is the pits. Benchwork and track and tools cost, and are all needed upfront. The typical "starter" 4x8, with a loop of commercial track and 4 turnouts is impossible to bring in at less than $500 if starting from scratch for tools and equipment. Especially, if one wants to add a couple of structures. Minimum is more like $800, and true costs from scratch go up from there.
Well, if the rules don't let you do it, then break them. There's lots of used track at train shows. Most of us already had the basic tools, for hanging pictures or sawing the table legs even. Hand saws still work as well as they did when people built houses with them, a hammer, and a framing square. :)
I know I could have brought mine in, starting from scratch, for way less than $500. I know I can build decent structures from balsa and Scalescenes paper for <$5 each.
Again, it can be done. I used to hate it, but now I see it as a challenge.
I got back into the hobby 2 1/2 years ago. I am on disability and have a very tight budget. I also have limited space, and now have a small layout.
I got into HO this time, and started from "ground zero". When I started I wanted one two three? or more or everything, and all at once...as in "now" "yesterday".
But, I started small, and steadily built with the lesser expensive items to get going, giving me something to work with. Some was to be wasted stuff (cheapo, use now), others "made do", some good and keepers. Now I concentrate my budget on building up more or replacing with the better stuff. Cheapo are practice items, Make dos still make do quite well, and of course the keepers are keepers. Even a cheap train will run well on decent track. And a cheap structure can always be replaced by a better one later.
Start small, choose the important things and spend slowly on them, to avoid debt. To use those important things, get some cheaper items to fill in to get going. Then upgrade as you go later.
You will reach a point where you have most of what you want/need, and will wonder what to get next!
Oh, and I no longer want more than one of everything.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
WaxonWaxov wrote: One thing for sure is that I will be doing flex track, not hand-laying non-turnout track.Meanwhile the folks at FastTracks have a new thing coming out for planning in full-size and marking plywood for sub roadbed that looks intriguing. They have a video on their website.OK, to you FastTracks users out there: What type of roadbed do you use?
One thing for sure is that I will be doing flex track, not hand-laying non-turnout track.
Meanwhile the folks at FastTracks have a new thing coming out for planning in full-size and marking plywood for sub roadbed that looks intriguing. They have a video on their website.
OK, to you FastTracks users out there: What type of roadbed do you use?
Doesn't matter whether you are a Fast Tracks user or not. Compatible roadbeds depend upon choice of track and track fastening method.
Assuming you are using sufficient PC board ties to effectively make your turnouts prefabricated (at the bench), are you depending on gluing the PC board ties to the roadbed or spikes in the wood ties to hold the turnout in place?
If gluing the PC board ties, the wood ties are then just for decoration and don't have to be spiked. Almost any of the common roadbed materials will work just fine. Choose for the properties you prefer.
If spiking through wood ties (and oversize-for-HO 1/4" spikes will protrude into the roadbed!), then you need a roadbed that is soft enough to push spikes into without curling too many, firm enough to hold the spike against any loads (pretty light in HO), and stable enough to retain these qualities over the long term.
Cork, Woodland Senics roadbed, and foam do not meet the firmness or stability criteria for spiking, IMHO. I found soft woods (pine, redwood, luaun plywood) to curl too many spikes for my liking. I haven't tried doorskin. IMHO, Homasote seems to be about the best for spiking, with similar insulation boards next. I haven't tried MiCore or Vinylbed, both of which have adherents.
yours in handlaid track
Fred W
Starting from zero does not suck!
Don't be in such a rush. Hobbies are about relaxing all the while learning more about what you're interested in.
Take the time to further your knowledge and fine tune the specifics of what you'd like to accomplish. Build a diorama. Build a structure. Try to handlay a single switch.
$1500.00 is a nice dosh of dough but if you ever get a hankerin' for some brass you'll gain perspective fast!
Martin
WaxonWaxov wrote:OK, to you FastTracks users out there: What type of roadbed do you use?
I'm using Midwest Products cork roadbed.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Lillen wrote:One suggestion, get the #6 crossover jig since that can also make the normal #6's as well as the crossover for just 30 dollars more that is a bargain.
That's a good point/idea.
To everyone that has responded to this thread/rant: Note that I am reading and processing all comments here. If I don't sepcifically comment on what you said it's not because I didn't read it or consider it.
What I find works for me is a matter of attitude and time management. My approach is to spend enough to keep me busy while I save enough for the next big step. First you do some careful planning (pretty cheap part of the hobby), then build good benchwork (This will cost $100-$200 but it keeps you busy for a while), next is roadbed and ties (buy stripwood and cut your own ties), Then progress to laying rail. When I was in practice, hand-laid track was about 1 hour per yard and 4 hours per turnout; it would take me months to lay the track you describe. Maybe you're faster than me.
Over those months, save some money and buy the stuff you'll need next. I think for most of us we follow the same pattern, buy - build/save, buy - build/save, etc.
As a hand-laying veteran, I don't know why you need all that stuff. For me, 2 rail gauges, a good needle-nose plier, some good files, a good vise, and a motor tool saw me through a lot of track laying. Maybe you know something I don't. I did mine in N scale with c-55 rail and I made my own ground throws (because there were none in N scale for purchase at the time).
Here's a shot of my results:
I'll admit that was a long time ago (1970s), but I kept track of the costs: The first 2 years I spent on this layout cost less than $100 total. I could only devote about 8 hours per week to the layout (I was in college at the time), but it was inexpensive entertainment.
My current layout is in HO and it is 16 X 3 1/2.
This time I bought ME code 70 track and turnouts (purchased track is easier on arthritic hands). Including a dozen brass locos and a transistor DC throttle, I'm into the hobby about $4000 over the past 6 years (still pretty cheap entertainment).
Perhaps you might benefit from thinking a little outside the box - think about what you CAN do with the resources you have, while you save for the future.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
Look at it differently, as a cost per hour. This is the reason I started out hand laying track. Your turnouts will take at least 20 hours when the learning curve is factored in. Obviously, it will go faster as you go on. From a cost per hour perspective, I have found that RTR cars and locomotives are the most expensive items, with benchwork next. Benchwork unfortunately eats up a lot of $$ relative quickly, even for a small layout, and assuming you already own the tools.
You can save substantially on the track laying tools.
I made my own "piano key" jig for laying ties at the correct spacing with a 12" piece of 1x2 lumber, the paper template that came with my Campbell ties, some ties, and some wood glue.
For a layout without 90 degrees of curve in one section, a rail bender is way overkill. You can bend the short curves for a turnout quite easily by hand to match a paper template. The rail bender is not calibrated so you are going to do multiple bends to get the curve right anyway. The only place I found that a rail bender would be remotely helpful is 90 degree plus curves that have a rail joint on the curve.
Whether you use Fast Tracks jigs and tools (and which ones) or not is really a personal choice. Folks have been hand laying track for years without Fast Tracks jigs and tools. Each step can be done with simple hand tools, and without jigs - but it does take a little more time, which is good for the ol' cost/hour. The jigs and tools (at least some of them) do speed the process and make hand laying far less intimidating for the newbie - at a price. The jigs and tools also make repeated precision fairly easy - all your #6 turnouts will be very close to identical. Some of us deliberately do not use the jigs because it allows custom turnouts to fit a particular situation.
If you do plan to eventually move on from the Fast Tracks system to your own, then buy just the jigs to begin with. Later, if you see a benefit from using a particular additional tool for your situation, you can buy it at that time (examples would be the stock rail notching tool and frog fixture). In the meantime, you will know how to fabricate the parts both by hand, and with the chosen tool.
just my thoughts
Note the high quality items listed, but for much, much less $$$$ I use Atlas code 83 flex (wood-ties) and #505-506 no. 6 turnouts. After painting, ballasting and weathering it is very hard to tell the difference - especially under normal basement lighting.
I also am modeling a little used secondary line, so my roster requirements are much less than a typical railroad "empire." Think Lance Mindheim's East Rail layout - less can be more in the end. I am also leveraging an existing analog DC control system, rather than spring $$$ for DCC, as I only run one train at a time. I use the dollars saved in other areas.
Sometimes you don't need the Mercedes when a Chevy will do just fine. They both get you there, but one will leave a lot more money in your pocket.
WaxonWaxov wrote: I am really torn about the whole FastTracks vs 'regular' turn-outs issue. It looks like Peco code 75 'medium' turn-outs are about $18@. By the time I buy 20 of those I could have purchased the FastTracks thing and associated tools that I would, in theory, have for the rest of my life.Also note my 'thought process' for getting the #6 FastTracks thing is that I can use it to mass-produce turn-outs for yards, etc. and use it as a learning tool to enable me to hand-lay turn-outs the 'old fashoned way' when I need a size other than #6.
I am really torn about the whole FastTracks vs 'regular' turn-outs issue. It looks like Peco code 75 'medium' turn-outs are about $18@. By the time I buy 20 of those I could have purchased the FastTracks thing and associated tools that I would, in theory, have for the rest of my life.
Also note my 'thought process' for getting the #6 FastTracks thing is that I can use it to mass-produce turn-outs for yards, etc. and use it as a learning tool to enable me to hand-lay turn-outs the 'old fashoned way' when I need a size other than #6.
I agree with your way of thinking about cots. One suggestion, get the #6 crossover jig since that can also make the normal #6's as well as the crossover for just 30 dollars more that is a bargain. Time is an issue. I do not know how long it takes for someone to make a hand laid turnout not using the jigs. But I can make a turnout in 18 minutes from start to finish when mass producing them and I'm not an experienced modeller. They come out better then my Atlas or Peco turnouts as well. Since I do not use those fancy ties that Tim uses the price is cheap. Also, a single yard as you seem to be aware of eats up a LOT of turnouts quickly.
I planned on using 50 turnouts but I will end up with a lot more. Making them one self at a fraction of a bought one just makes it easier to justify that "one more turnout"!
Magnus
First of all I meant GP7, not RS-7.
Also, when I plan for something financially, I like to plan for the worse. I'd rather plan on spending say $5000 on a vacation and coming home with $1000 left over than plan on $3000 and then need $4000.
Also thanks to those of you who found the humor in the Gloc thing. That's how it was intended.
Well don't forget the time factor, handlaying all that track will take a while. BTW why are you handlaying track?? I'm using Kato Unitrack on the new layout, goes together quick and the narrow-profile code 83 track looks great!!
For shelving, I'm using John Sterling shelf components from Menard's - I imagine Home Depot etc. would have them or something similar. Just drill holes in the wall in the basement and install the 'uprights' and you can put up the shelfs, can even try different heights to see what works best. I currently have the first section in place, roughly 12' by 12' of 16" shelf...and I guarantee it didn't cost no $1500!! Probably more like $3-400. If I'd used cheaper wood, like plywood instead of John Sterling shelfs, it would have been even less.
I think it's great that you are going with Fast tracks products. The earlier you get them the faster they pay them self off. I wish I would have gotten mine earlier and saved the cash by not getting Atlas turnouts or the Roco and Peco ones I first tried. But, besides the "consumables" I wouldn't get any of the other tools. I find it easy enough to just use my belt top sander to do the points and the frog. And the special frog tool is not necessary if you are getting the jig since the jig holds the frog in place.
Quality costs but it's worth it.