So I have this whole plan of building a 2x8 shelf layout that would someday grow into the railraod I have in my head. This shelf layout would have 10 turn-outs in a smallish town with a few industries. All that I currently own for this project is the wood working tools needed.
Here is the preliminary list of what I figure I'll need....
Now yes, most of that is "non consumable" meaning I can use the items over and over as the layout grows.
BUT there's a lot still not on that list... rolling stock beyond the loco, roadbed, all scenic materials beyond ballast, glue, wire, a soldering iron, etc.etc.etc.
I'm figuring this 2x8 shelf is going to surpass $1500 easy.
Or I could spend about half that on a GLOC 9mm and one bullet to blow my brains out.
The best way to go about it is a little at a time...there are few of us who can afford to go out and get everything in one shot. Being in sort of the same "boat", I'm starting over sort of myself.
That's why they call it a hobby.
Bob Berger, C.O.O. N-ovation & Northwestern R.R. My patio layout....SEE IT HERE
There's no place like ~/ ;)
Well, since you are going with the high end Micro Eng. and Fast track, that is going to cost you a bundle, more than double what you would pay for Atlas Flex and turnouts. And I admire your ambition for going with the craftsman type track laying.
But, hey, if you want the best of the best of the best, you will have to pay for it heh!
I have not even come close to having the skills necessary to lay my own track. Heck, I just did repair a Walther's #6 left hand turnout this weekend and that was a major surgery technique for me to fix the out of gauge area that was de-railing all my cars.
Your $1,500 figure is a great start though!
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
Waxon--
I'd cross the last item off of your list if I were you.
However, if you're bound and determined to hand-lay your track (which I admire, BTW), then it is going to get into a relatively expensive proposition. But the end result with care, time and patience, will probably be worth every penny.
I admire your plans--a lot of us (especially me) in planning a 'first' layout would go the easier way out, grab some Code 83 (or 100) pre-fab track, get it down as quickly as possible and start running trains. Which is not a Bad Thing, understand. My late cousin, who was a fine model railroader, preferred to hand-lay his own track, and the results were absolutely stunning. Myself, I don't have that kind of talent (or patience), but that doesn't mean that I can't admire the heck out of someone who does.
So look on the bright side--you can really say that you did it ALL!
Best of luck.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
WaxonWaxov wrote: I'm figuring this 2x8 shelf is going to surpass $1500 easy.Or I could spend about half that on a GLOC 9mm and one bullet .....
Or I could spend about half that on a GLOC 9mm and one bullet .....
You are not calculating correctly. Funerals can cost anywhere from $5000 on up, unless they are just going to put you out at the curb for the Thursday pickup. So what you need to do is spend the $1500 and tell everyone else that your new railroad saved you at least $3500.
Waxon,
As I mentioned in your other post, for now you could buy the Fast Track #6 turnouts off eBay. They already come fully assembled, painted, and wired. That would save you $160 because you wouldn't need the following:
You could then spend the extra on rolling stock kits, a couple of good non-sound switchers, or one good switcher with sound.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
If you go with the Central Valley products you won't need expensive tools.I figured $100/sq.ft. for my layout.(roughly 100 sq. ft.)
Why waist $700 on Glock when a $99 Hi Point 9mm would work just fine at that close a range??
Glocks have a nasty tendancy to jam at the worst moments.
I'll recommend a Springfield 1911.
However, why do you have to have all $1500 worth of materials at once? After figuring up the cost of the Stonycreek Valley (O scale, 7X16, several locos, over 200 cars, power supply etc) I'm "guessing" I have over $10K invested. And it's not even close to finished!
Trust me, I DID NOT tell the Better Half this figure! She has a shotgun, and knows how to use it!
A hobby is ment to be for relaxation, fun, and escapisim. Ever priced old gun collecting? A "bad" example of, say, a WWI Luger can ger very pricy indeed. Ditto for my other hobby, bike racing. A Cannondale CAAD 9.5 with the latest racing components is shooting at the $2500 range.
Don't sweat the treasure issue. Get a few items at a time, stash 'em away, and let the layout build itself over time. Spread out the "fun" factor so to speak.
Since you are just starting out, may I suggest a shelf layout in O scale 2 rail can be fun, and as an added bonus, when you get to a certain age, O scale gets easier to see...
loathar wrote:Why waist $700 on Glock when a $99 Hi Point 9mm would work just fine at that close a range??
My wife has one of those, and loves it!
If you WANT a Ferrari, you have to PAY for a Ferrari. Sheesh! I'd like a Ferrari too, but you dont see me griping about the fact thats it's 4X my yearly income.
I dont have too much sympathy, you want high end top of the line materials then complain about how much they cost? Are you absolutely positive you have to use those materials? are there other options? Hmm?
Either lower your standards, use flextrack and regular switches like the rest of us poor schmucks, or man up and pay for what you really want and dont whine about it. I'm pi$$ poor hobby wise, but have managed over the last 5 years to amass a fleet of engines, track and rolling stock by buying slowly and carefully. We all do this.
If cash flow is a problem, set up a monthly (bi-monthly, quarterly) budget and purchase whatever your budget allows in that time frame and build as you go. No one I have ever met in this hobby, has ever purchased the whole shi-bang in a one-time only purchase, they've all (including me, $50 a month) built their layout over a span of years, some decades.
Patience is a virtue in this hobby.
Have fun with your trains
Don't be afraid to buy good tools, they will last you decades and you will use them on your next 5 layouts. Same with a power pack.
Have you considered NOT buying the Fast Tracks stuff and trying handlaying the switches yourself? (as people have done for the last 70 or 80 years)
I can buy 33 sticks of 36" rail for about 50 bucks at my local hobby shop, so buying the 18" sticks doesn't look like much of a bargain.
Rather than spend $60 on a rail bender (which I have never seen anyone use in 30 years of handlaying track) buy a good multimeter (even a cheap multi-meter). You will use it way more than a railbender.
You can make your own tie jig with a 1x4 and some stripwood. You can get 500 switch ties for $17 or so rather than buy the switch tie sticks.
Any comfortable pair of pliers will work for driving spikes, you don't need the $50 variety.
If you lose the jigs, etc and handlay the track straight up, you can save $396 (almost 25%)
If you are really concerned about costs go cheaper with flex track and Atlas switches, code 100 or code 83. If you decide to go with the Fast Track jigs to ease the learning curve then relize you are PAYING to remove the curve. You are trading money for time. If its worth $400 to be able to build switches in a day, then great. You you are willing to invest the time to build them without the jigs then you don't need to spend the money.
Since this is going to take you months to complete, you can spread the spending out over those months. You don't need the track materials until you have benchwork. You don't need the engine or powerpack until you have some track. You don't need ballast until you have track and have it operating.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I think it's great that you are going with Fast tracks products. The earlier you get them the faster they pay them self off. I wish I would have gotten mine earlier and saved the cash by not getting Atlas turnouts or the Roco and Peco ones I first tried. But, besides the "consumables" I wouldn't get any of the other tools. I find it easy enough to just use my belt top sander to do the points and the frog. And the special frog tool is not necessary if you are getting the jig since the jig holds the frog in place.
Quality costs but it's worth it.
Magnus
Well don't forget the time factor, handlaying all that track will take a while. BTW why are you handlaying track?? I'm using Kato Unitrack on the new layout, goes together quick and the narrow-profile code 83 track looks great!!
For shelving, I'm using John Sterling shelf components from Menard's - I imagine Home Depot etc. would have them or something similar. Just drill holes in the wall in the basement and install the 'uprights' and you can put up the shelfs, can even try different heights to see what works best. I currently have the first section in place, roughly 12' by 12' of 16" shelf...and I guarantee it didn't cost no $1500!! Probably more like $3-400. If I'd used cheaper wood, like plywood instead of John Sterling shelfs, it would have been even less.
First of all I meant GP7, not RS-7.
Also, when I plan for something financially, I like to plan for the worse. I'd rather plan on spending say $5000 on a vacation and coming home with $1000 left over than plan on $3000 and then need $4000.
I am really torn about the whole FastTracks vs 'regular' turn-outs issue. It looks like Peco code 75 'medium' turn-outs are about $18@. By the time I buy 20 of those I could have purchased the FastTracks thing and associated tools that I would, in theory, have for the rest of my life.
Also note my 'thought process' for getting the #6 FastTracks thing is that I can use it to mass-produce turn-outs for yards, etc. and use it as a learning tool to enable me to hand-lay turn-outs the 'old fashoned way' when I need a size other than #6.
Also thanks to those of you who found the humor in the Gloc thing. That's how it was intended.
WaxonWaxov wrote: I am really torn about the whole FastTracks vs 'regular' turn-outs issue. It looks like Peco code 75 'medium' turn-outs are about $18@. By the time I buy 20 of those I could have purchased the FastTracks thing and associated tools that I would, in theory, have for the rest of my life.Also note my 'thought process' for getting the #6 FastTracks thing is that I can use it to mass-produce turn-outs for yards, etc. and use it as a learning tool to enable me to hand-lay turn-outs the 'old fashoned way' when I need a size other than #6.
I agree with your way of thinking about cots. One suggestion, get the #6 crossover jig since that can also make the normal #6's as well as the crossover for just 30 dollars more that is a bargain. Time is an issue. I do not know how long it takes for someone to make a hand laid turnout not using the jigs. But I can make a turnout in 18 minutes from start to finish when mass producing them and I'm not an experienced modeller. They come out better then my Atlas or Peco turnouts as well. Since I do not use those fancy ties that Tim uses the price is cheap. Also, a single yard as you seem to be aware of eats up a LOT of turnouts quickly.
I planned on using 50 turnouts but I will end up with a lot more. Making them one self at a fraction of a bought one just makes it easier to justify that "one more turnout"!
Note the high quality items listed, but for much, much less $$$$ I use Atlas code 83 flex (wood-ties) and #505-506 no. 6 turnouts. After painting, ballasting and weathering it is very hard to tell the difference - especially under normal basement lighting.
I also am modeling a little used secondary line, so my roster requirements are much less than a typical railroad "empire." Think Lance Mindheim's East Rail layout - less can be more in the end. I am also leveraging an existing analog DC control system, rather than spring $$$ for DCC, as I only run one train at a time. I use the dollars saved in other areas.
Sometimes you don't need the Mercedes when a Chevy will do just fine. They both get you there, but one will leave a lot more money in your pocket.
Starting from zero is the pits. Benchwork and track and tools cost, and are all needed upfront. The typical "starter" 4x8, with a loop of commercial track and 4 turnouts is impossible to bring in at less than $500 if starting from scratch for tools and equipment. Especially, if one wants to add a couple of structures. Minimum is more like $800, and true costs from scratch go up from there.
Look at it differently, as a cost per hour. This is the reason I started out hand laying track. Your turnouts will take at least 20 hours when the learning curve is factored in. Obviously, it will go faster as you go on. From a cost per hour perspective, I have found that RTR cars and locomotives are the most expensive items, with benchwork next. Benchwork unfortunately eats up a lot of $$ relative quickly, even for a small layout, and assuming you already own the tools.
You can save substantially on the track laying tools.
I made my own "piano key" jig for laying ties at the correct spacing with a 12" piece of 1x2 lumber, the paper template that came with my Campbell ties, some ties, and some wood glue.
For a layout without 90 degrees of curve in one section, a rail bender is way overkill. You can bend the short curves for a turnout quite easily by hand to match a paper template. The rail bender is not calibrated so you are going to do multiple bends to get the curve right anyway. The only place I found that a rail bender would be remotely helpful is 90 degree plus curves that have a rail joint on the curve.
Whether you use Fast Tracks jigs and tools (and which ones) or not is really a personal choice. Folks have been hand laying track for years without Fast Tracks jigs and tools. Each step can be done with simple hand tools, and without jigs - but it does take a little more time, which is good for the ol' cost/hour. The jigs and tools (at least some of them) do speed the process and make hand laying far less intimidating for the newbie - at a price. The jigs and tools also make repeated precision fairly easy - all your #6 turnouts will be very close to identical. Some of us deliberately do not use the jigs because it allows custom turnouts to fit a particular situation.
If you do plan to eventually move on from the Fast Tracks system to your own, then buy just the jigs to begin with. Later, if you see a benefit from using a particular additional tool for your situation, you can buy it at that time (examples would be the stock rail notching tool and frog fixture). In the meantime, you will know how to fabricate the parts both by hand, and with the chosen tool.
just my thoughts
Fred W
What I find works for me is a matter of attitude and time management. My approach is to spend enough to keep me busy while I save enough for the next big step. First you do some careful planning (pretty cheap part of the hobby), then build good benchwork (This will cost $100-$200 but it keeps you busy for a while), next is roadbed and ties (buy stripwood and cut your own ties), Then progress to laying rail. When I was in practice, hand-laid track was about 1 hour per yard and 4 hours per turnout; it would take me months to lay the track you describe. Maybe you're faster than me.
Over those months, save some money and buy the stuff you'll need next. I think for most of us we follow the same pattern, buy - build/save, buy - build/save, etc.
As a hand-laying veteran, I don't know why you need all that stuff. For me, 2 rail gauges, a good needle-nose plier, some good files, a good vise, and a motor tool saw me through a lot of track laying. Maybe you know something I don't. I did mine in N scale with c-55 rail and I made my own ground throws (because there were none in N scale for purchase at the time).
Here's a shot of my results:
I'll admit that was a long time ago (1970s), but I kept track of the costs: The first 2 years I spent on this layout cost less than $100 total. I could only devote about 8 hours per week to the layout (I was in college at the time), but it was inexpensive entertainment.
My current layout is in HO and it is 16 X 3 1/2.
This time I bought ME code 70 track and turnouts (purchased track is easier on arthritic hands). Including a dozen brass locos and a transistor DC throttle, I'm into the hobby about $4000 over the past 6 years (still pretty cheap entertainment).
Perhaps you might benefit from thinking a little outside the box - think about what you CAN do with the resources you have, while you save for the future.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
Lillen wrote:One suggestion, get the #6 crossover jig since that can also make the normal #6's as well as the crossover for just 30 dollars more that is a bargain.
That's a good point/idea.
To everyone that has responded to this thread/rant: Note that I am reading and processing all comments here. If I don't sepcifically comment on what you said it's not because I didn't read it or consider it.
One thing for sure is that I will be doing flex track, not hand-laying non-turnout track.
Meanwhile the folks at FastTracks have a new thing coming out for planning in full-size and marking plywood for sub roadbed that looks intriguing. They have a video on their website.
OK, to you FastTracks users out there: What type of roadbed do you use?
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
WaxonWaxov wrote:OK, to you FastTracks users out there: What type of roadbed do you use?
I'm using Midwest Products cork roadbed.
Starting from zero does not suck!
Don't be in such a rush. Hobbies are about relaxing all the while learning more about what you're interested in.
Take the time to further your knowledge and fine tune the specifics of what you'd like to accomplish. Build a diorama. Build a structure. Try to handlay a single switch.
$1500.00 is a nice dosh of dough but if you ever get a hankerin' for some brass you'll gain perspective fast!
Martin
WaxonWaxov wrote: One thing for sure is that I will be doing flex track, not hand-laying non-turnout track.Meanwhile the folks at FastTracks have a new thing coming out for planning in full-size and marking plywood for sub roadbed that looks intriguing. They have a video on their website.OK, to you FastTracks users out there: What type of roadbed do you use?
Doesn't matter whether you are a Fast Tracks user or not. Compatible roadbeds depend upon choice of track and track fastening method.
Assuming you are using sufficient PC board ties to effectively make your turnouts prefabricated (at the bench), are you depending on gluing the PC board ties to the roadbed or spikes in the wood ties to hold the turnout in place?
If gluing the PC board ties, the wood ties are then just for decoration and don't have to be spiked. Almost any of the common roadbed materials will work just fine. Choose for the properties you prefer.
If spiking through wood ties (and oversize-for-HO 1/4" spikes will protrude into the roadbed!), then you need a roadbed that is soft enough to push spikes into without curling too many, firm enough to hold the spike against any loads (pretty light in HO), and stable enough to retain these qualities over the long term.
Cork, Woodland Senics roadbed, and foam do not meet the firmness or stability criteria for spiking, IMHO. I found soft woods (pine, redwood, luaun plywood) to curl too many spikes for my liking. I haven't tried doorskin. IMHO, Homasote seems to be about the best for spiking, with similar insulation boards next. I haven't tried MiCore or Vinylbed, both of which have adherents.
yours in handlaid track
I got back into the hobby 2 1/2 years ago. I am on disability and have a very tight budget. I also have limited space, and now have a small layout.
I got into HO this time, and started from "ground zero". When I started I wanted one two three? or more or everything, and all at once...as in "now" "yesterday".
But, I started small, and steadily built with the lesser expensive items to get going, giving me something to work with. Some was to be wasted stuff (cheapo, use now), others "made do", some good and keepers. Now I concentrate my budget on building up more or replacing with the better stuff. Cheapo are practice items, Make dos still make do quite well, and of course the keepers are keepers. Even a cheap train will run well on decent track. And a cheap structure can always be replaced by a better one later.
Start small, choose the important things and spend slowly on them, to avoid debt. To use those important things, get some cheaper items to fill in to get going. Then upgrade as you go later.
You will reach a point where you have most of what you want/need, and will wonder what to get next!
Oh, and I no longer want more than one of everything.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
WW:
I think, last time I laid track, this is what I had:
-Rail
-Ties
-Spikes
-plain Jane needlenose pliers
-a file from some garage sale
-two three-point gauges
-an NMRA gauge
-a Wen soldering gun from some garage sale, 50 cents. I still have it. I LOVE my Wen.
-Solder from the hardware store.
Basically, all I bought for track purposes included the ties, the gauges, and the spikes. I have to admit the rail was salvaged. Nowadays I'd probably try to get some PC board ties for the throw bar, and I now have a Xuron tool which I really really like. It can be done cheaply, however, even if you jump right into handlaying. It had to be. I was young, and I wasn't made of money, so most of my tools were from garage sales or auctions. You know the old saying: use up, wear out, make do, or outbid the Amish at the farm sale.
It can be done.
fwright wrote: Starting from zero is the pits. Benchwork and track and tools cost, and are all needed upfront. The typical "starter" 4x8, with a loop of commercial track and 4 turnouts is impossible to bring in at less than $500 if starting from scratch for tools and equipment. Especially, if one wants to add a couple of structures. Minimum is more like $800, and true costs from scratch go up from there.
Well, if the rules don't let you do it, then break them. There's lots of used track at train shows. Most of us already had the basic tools, for hanging pictures or sawing the table legs even. Hand saws still work as well as they did when people built houses with them, a hammer, and a framing square. :)
I know I could have brought mine in, starting from scratch, for way less than $500. I know I can build decent structures from balsa and Scalescenes paper for <$5 each.
Again, it can be done. I used to hate it, but now I see it as a challenge.