Will DC layouts go the way of VHS?

[challenger3980]

Both DC and DCC will go the way of VHS. Here's why:

http://cs.trains.com/forums/1452043/ShowPost.aspx

 

This is the only sensible reply so far.

 

-G- 

 I disagree with you on several points, first being there have been many well thought out, and sensible replies to this thread. DC in MY OPINION( Which is all ANY of these replies are, is OPINIONS, none of us has a crystal ball) is going to be around a LOOOONNGGG time to come yet. Something that only a couple of others have touched on is how most new Locomotives that come DCC equipped, the majority are DUAL-MODE decoder equipped, so that they can be operated EITHER WAY. This does not have to be an either/or subject. There is no reason for the manufacturers to lose a market segment over the small cost of making the decoders DUAL-MODE.

  I believe it was 1906 when Joshua Lionel Cowen first introduced 3-Rail AC, and 102 years later, while not the LARGEST segment of the Hobby, it is still a Healthy segment that is not going away any time soon. 3-Rail AC may very well out live BOTH DC and DCC. Talking to the owner of my LTS, he has said that while still a minority scale now, O-Gauge sales have been INCREASING.

                                                         Doug

[emdgp92]

DC will be with us for a very long time, as there are those out there who don't want to mess with DCC, don't care, or for that matter, don't have the extra $$$$ to spend on DCC accessories. 

Flipping through one of the recent catalogs, I noticed that a DC only version of an engine is roughly $100 less than the DCC version. I don't know about you all, but that's a serious premium, one that I'm unwilling to pay. With car payments, mortgage payments, and other bills, I simply can't justify spending that kind of money on something that's basically a toy. (Not trying to slam anyone here, folks.)

Also, it's not that I don't want to mess with technology (I do tech support for a brokerage company), but again, it's a bit expensive right now.

[tsgtbob]

Price is one issue, especially considering that I'm a 2 rail O scaler, and the decoders for some of those Amp Hogs are not what I would call cheap!

A MRC 3500 G gauge power supply works my loop layout just fine.

 

[BRAKIE]

Price is one issue, especially considering that I'm a 2 rail O scaler, and the decoders for some of those Amp Hogs are not what I would call cheap!

A MRC 3500 G gauge power supply works my loop layout just fine.

 

 Decoders isn't  cheap in HO or N Scale either..

[wgnrr]

DC will never go away. I won't change to DCC, even though I do have a layout that operates Lenz. It's too much of a pain to switch everything.

A die-hard modeler down here says that he will never switch to DCC. He has about 150 brass steamers and an equal ammount of diesels. I can't imagine trying to get all of those switched.

Phil

[AntonioFP45]

Hopefully.  Once DC is gone there won't be as many issues with having to install decoders, they'll already be there...in all models not just some.  Why use a vastly inferior technology?

I have some concern though over people that think that DCC only benefits those with large layouts.  In my opinion, there are far more advantages provided to small and mid-size layouts (provided they want to run more than one engine) by DCC then there are to large layouts.

Hi Occams,

Though command control will continue to become more and more popular, imho, DC won't die anytime soon.

I agree that DCC is beneficial to small layouts as well as large layouts.  For those of us that enjoy the prototypical "Special FX", it adds more to the enjoyment.  Just to be able to turn headlights, back up lights, Mars lights, Gyra lights, Rule 17 mode lighting, complements the fun on even a small shelf layout.  

[BRAKIE]

As far as "back up" lights that is only found on model locomotives..Real locomotives lights stay on in either direction.

To be honest "reversing" headlights been my pet peeve for years since we strive to emulate the prototype.

As far as rule 17..Why do we try to emulate that rule when breaking tons of safety rules when we operate our trains?

[Autobus Prime]

Folks:

Why am I bothering to write this? It's a holy war. We know how those go. DCC people are gadgeteers who revel in all the gimmickry, DC people are Luddites who revel in all the crudity. Nobody's ever going to win that one.

The way I see it, DCC looks very useful. Potentially, it could simplify things. In practice, it doesn't seem possible to resist the universal tendency toward creeping featurism and so you have 25000 varieties of decoder with 50000 options and programming and consisting,and gee whiz.

A lot of us are gadgeteers in one field or another. I'm positive a lot of the big DCC proponents would have had PCC systems in the olden days. It probably will displace systems like that, perhaps already has, and maybe computerized power-routing systems, and maybe the relatively complex block-toggle systems of medium to large layouts. It's great for fixed and modular club layouts.

But I really think a lot of model railroaders are people who buy a train set and plop it on a board, or who put one around the Christmas tree. I'm not disparaging this. It's fun. It's hard to see how DCC would help here (oh boy, here comes "DCC Small Layout Speech 1") so I imagine DC will continue in use for at least entry-level stuff.




Me, I have a handful of locomotives, four block switches that aren't even wired up yet, really low-key one-train shortline operation, and a 4x8. I still don't want sound, as train time is quiet think time. It might be amusing to put Mars lights on my 2-6-0, however.

[Anonymous]

 

   If I undestand correctly, buying an intro DCC system, you will get precisely ONE

controller, that can program a heck of a lot, but basically that single controller is the

only unit you get if you want to directly command your trains.   So if your friend comes

over and operates another train you have to what... play hot potato with it?

or buy another controller (does that work and is there a limit to how many controllers are operating??)

I would much prefer single station RC system with eight channels that can provide 2 channels

for each of 4 engines.    As for swichting  (I believe a real man should use the full sized levers

yardmasters use.) but since that would mean cutting up your floorboards....

   I am old school, which is strange since I haven't even made a layout more complicated than

a figure eight.   I like the Swiching controll box with diagrams and togle switches, how else is

an apprentice yardmaster going to learn.     In my new layout plans What I may do is split the

difference, with transtiing trains running on DC and working trains at the yards/assembly inDCC

 

[Melchoir]

This is a very interesting topic and the posts are most interesting as well. I'm a DC person myself and will probably always be one. I'm very much into technology..but I really like  operating my layout..not a large one( but on two independent levels) in good old DC.I also hesitate at this point in time to fork out the extra dollars for DCC equipped locomotives. In lots of cases I can buy two DC ones for the price of one DCC one.

It would be very interesting to take a poll on this subject every three months or so and at the end of a two year period to see if ther had been any sizeable migration to one format or the other. I think also it will be some time before DCC will be offered in starter train sets.Thanks for listening

[Paul3]

Admiral_Ritt,
For throttles, there is a system that, if you have DC throttlepacks, can operate up to 2 additonal throttles for no extra cost.  The Digitrax Zephyr has two "Jump" ports that allows one to plug in up to two DC throttlepacks that can be used to have independant control of two more trains.

In all other DCC systems, you must buy more throttles to control more trains independantly (unless you use a computer to do it).  But that's not any different than DC.  In fact, it's better.  If you have a single operator DC layout and you have a friend over, how do they control a 2nd train independantly?  You can't.  But with DCC if you have a half dozen friends come over and they all have DCC throttles that work with your system, they can all control trains independantly from each other.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[selector]

It seems that the saving grace for many/most of the issues we face, whether in DC or DCC, will be when we can power locos from a tiny cell easily accessed and replaced as needed in the engine itself.  Once an on-board power system is available, the entire thread will be moot.  Real radio throttles and their responding systems will be the next challenge, after which improvements in details and realism will continue to be our pursuit....

..I think.

[Tracklayer]

It doesn't seem that long ago that VHS won the battle with Beta as the standard VCR recorder/player but now that technology is considered to be Stone Age. I'm sure many of us still have them and use them but for the most part, they have been replaced by DVD and DVR. Good luck trying to buy either blank or prerecorded VHS tapes unless it is at a garage sale. So will DCC become so popular that DC layouts will soon be considered obsolete. For a long time, knuckle couplers were considered add-on equipment but now they are the standard and most equipment I buy doesn't even include the horn-hooks anymore. Likewise, will manufacturers quit offering DC locomotives and go strictly with decoder equipped locos. I can't see DC becoming completely extinct. There will always be some holdouts. I still know of people who play vinyl records and have working 8-track players. Is the day coming when DCC will completely push DC offerings out of the market place and the DC holdouts will have to REMOVE the factory decoders and build their own powerpacks just so they can continue to operate their DC layouts.  

Though I own a couple of DVD players and a nice collection of discs, I still get my VHS blanks at Wal-Mart, have three VCRs in the house and two new in the box in storage and my layout is and always will be DC. It's the younger generation that's into all of the latest technology, not most people my age... 

Tracklayer

 

[LD357]

 DCC will most likely go before DC does...reason, DC is reliable and it is  much cheaper to manufacture products using it. Like the ''old fashioned'' X2F couplers, DC was the mainstay for years, then when DCC came along everyone rushed to buy it. Then the troubles started, remember the first DCC products?? Horrid pieces of junk, both locos and controllers, and it took a while for the maunfacturers to get their collective acts together and fix it. Now the systems are reliable and moderately priced, but as with all things electronic, someone, somewhere, is working on a way to make it more sophisticated [read---complicated].

  The next generation of ''smart'' control devices will most certainly use a form of DCC, but it will involve PC's and most likely some type of hand-held device similar to Blackberries. The DCC you know today will be relegated to the junk bin and termed ''old school'' by the new generations. But, the standard DC products will still be manufactured, bought and used.....and yes, even those much malighned and hated X2F couplers will still be around, the reason......reliabilty.

  Is VHS dead? not even close!! If you can't find VHS movies and blank tapes you must live in the Amazon! WallyMart sells movies and blank tapes and a VHS\DVD player for under $100......perhaps you need to get out of the train room a little more??

  

[AntonioFP45]

As far as "back up" lights that is only found on model locomotives..Real locomotives lights stay on in either direction.

To be honest "reversing" headlights been my pet peeve for years since we strive to emulate the prototype.

As far as rule 17..Why do we try to emulate that rule when breaking tons of safety rules when we operate our trains?

Brakie, I should have been more specific as I was thinking of the E and F units that were equipped with a light on the back. 

Rule 17? There are those of us that enjoy emulating the prototype as close as possible, which includes the flexibilities of manipulating the lighting and sound effects.  For me (and I'm sure for others) something as simple as having a cut of locomotives idling in front of the loco shop with the lead unit's headlight in the "dim" mode, getting ready to go out on a new assigment offers a pleasant sense of satisfaction.

 

Guys,

We don't want to turn this into a DC vs. DCC thread as there have been a lot of good responses. Point is that many of us enjoy the 'flexibility" offered by DCC, clear and simple. If you're satisfied with traditional DC, go for it. It will likely be around for a long time.  One of my colleagues is building a simple layout and is going DC, but is curious about DCC. 

Currently DCC is much cheaper now than a decade ago with some basic decoders selling for $11 dollars now.  A far cry from the $40 to $60+ of the early 90s. But there is still a cost.  But a similar argument can be made for those of us purchasing brass units vs. plastic.

There are some saying that this DCC technology will eventually become obsolete.  So.......is that a good reason not to invest and enjoy it if one is looking for operating flexibility and special effects?  Suppose that 20 years from now, a revolutionary technology emerges and supersedes DCC.  Will today's naysayers, (who will be much older then ) jump up and say "See! See! I told you so!" but then turn around and say "Well, uh this new technology will be replaced 10 years down the line! Just wait and see! You kids just don't listen!"

Good grief, instead of waiting for this new super-technology to break onto the scene..............I think I'll have some fun with the current command control technology while I can still walk and breathe and my hair hasn't grayed over yet!

[betamax]

Eventually DCC will become so cheap, that almost any locomotive offered will have at least a basic decoder installed. It will be expected. The price difference will be so little that most people just won't bother with a DC unit.

Why did you not see a flood of playback only VCRs? Because the cost of making a recorder was only a few dollars more than that of a player, so the manufacturers just ignored that product in terms of large scale production. They did make them, but often were only offered as commercial units to rental stores, etc.

The difference in price at retail may have been $50. Big deal. If they were half the price of a VCR, that would have been worth it.

[BRAKIE]

Antonio wrote:Rule 17? There are those of us that enjoy emulating the prototype as close as possible, which includes the flexibilities of manipulating the lighting and sound effects.  For me (and I'm sure for others) something as simple as having a cut of locomotives idling in front of the loco shop with the lead unit's headlight in the "dim" mode, getting ready to go out on a new assigment offers a pleasant sense of satisfaction.

----------------------------------------------

Agreed but,safety rules should be followed as well especially while switching cars.I know you have seen modelers do "crash couplings" and high speed switching as well as slam into a car at a industry..Obeying the more simple safety rules goes hand in hand with emulating the prototype lighting..

Also more then likely any unit sitting in a engine terminal or outbound ready track will have the lights shut off.

Savvy mi amigo?

[RRTrainman]

DC will fade away some day.  Its not for me yet!  I have to many old DC units and the old cab style has work for me for Years!! and its very reilable for me.  My new yard is all DC cab controlled and if someone give's a complete system and all the decoder's for my loco's that's the only I'm going to make the switch.

[doctorwayne]

....if someone give's a complete system and all the decoder's for my loco's that's the only I'm going to make the switch.

And for some of us, even that wouldn't be incentive enough to switch.

Wayne 

[RRTrainman]

Thank's Wayne.  I don't plan on doing the change anytime soon.

[jfugate]

I think one of the keys to whether or not DCC is appealing is whether or not you operate prototypically and have lots of people run the trains with you.

Straight DC wiring and the associated block controls needed to make it possible to run many trains at once greatly complicate things. Not to mention, the expense of wiring a larger layout for flexible straight DC to run multiple trains is not cheap either.

In a recent Layout Design Journal (publication of the Layout Design SIG), modeler Peter Brahan reported his Layout Design Lessons Learned. In the article, Peter told of his experience on the DC versus DCC question:

“I decided to save a few bucks and go DC [on my previous layout]. Therefore my layout had over 100 toggle switches and saying it was a complete mess to run would be an understatement. It used to take 30 minutes to train new operators to even get a train running, and my operators were all nuclear engineers – no kidding. I am going to make the transition to DCC on my new layout. This is a no-brainer for many people, but it's not worth the up front savings of money for all the headaches of DC when it comes to installation, troubleshooting, and ease of operation.”

But if you're mostly a railfan who just likes to watch the trains run and often run the trains solo or just with another guy or two, then I can see why DCC might not be very appealing.

 

INDIVIDUAL LOCO TUNING

However, as I've said elsewhere, don't overlook one of DCC's very powerful traits: individual loco tuning. Some of the best slow speed loco performance I've seen has been on DCC using a Back EMF decoder ... the loco literally "floats" smoothly through complex trackwork like it has tremendous mass. Very impressive!

No more fiddling with power pack settings to try and get the best performance out of each-and-every loco or trying to remember what settings worked best last time with this loco. No more concerns about compensating for a stiff mechanism or tight trackwork by cranking up the throttle briefly while starting out your train or while running the train through the yard ladder.

And no need to pull off the loco shell to adjust loco performance by fiddling with the mechanism. You can easily adjust loco performance settings while it's on the track using DCC programming on the main.

That's one thing DC just can't match. 

[sundayniagara]

Blank VHS tapes are still readily available. Like DC locomotives will be for a long time to come.

Anynody know WHY VHS beat out Beta?

Beta wasn't slightly technologically superior, it was VASTLY superior.  It used a single-arm spindle mechanism that pulled the tape 3/4 around the tape head for better contact and a vastly improved image.  The VHS mechanisms used two spindle arms that only gave 1/2 diameter contact with the tape heads.

VHS beat Beta, as others have said, on price and storage capacity.  But the unseen factor was that it was a proprietary system made only by Sony while Matsushita opened the VHS specifications up to other manufacturers, just as IBM opened up their vastly inferior PC architecture and had contracts that allowed MS to sell the OS to other PC manufacturers, while Apple kept the vastly superior Macintosh architecture proptietary.  As with the Mac, A variant of Beta did survive, Betacam was a popular commercial format and is still around.

However, the DC standard in model railroading has a history dating back well over half a century, while these electronic products barely reach back two decades.  DC will be around in some form.  But it will be interesting to watch and see how much of the market DCC takes, and what forms it evolves into.

Best!

 

Americans are conditioned to accept mediocrity! 

[doctorwayne]

Americans are conditioned to accept mediocrity! 

Which leads me to wonder:  if mediocrity is the best one can hope for, is it still considered mediocre?

Wayne 

[John Busby]

Hi Mr Beasley

Older locomotives retire I don't think so.

I deliberatly seek out the older locomotives as they are of far better quality construction than the modern rubish with throw away motors.

My latest new loco is older than I am was fitted with the same manufacturers modern wheels,given a clean up and away it goes it will probably out live me

Buy loco and throw out in six months because its cheaper to buy a new one than replace the motor not for me thanks.

OK so the older loco's can be a bit short in the detail dept but I can live with that

No plans on ever going DCC even if its free

regards John Busby

[SleeperN06]

I think there is definitely a need for DC because of the cost. Most people starting out either not wanting to spend the money right away or they just can't afford it. Almost all my Loco's are DCC ready and I do have 4 Loco's that are DCC equipped that I don't even use, because I'm still using DC due to the cost of a complete system. I can see that on a very large layout DCC is important but not on small layouts. My small layout is wired for both DC and DCC and it wasn't bad at all to wire.
I keep hearing about DCC being cheaper in the long run, but I can show you spreadsheet after spreadsheet that I have done for myself and I'm here to say it isn't true. There is just about same amount of wiring when you start adding Auto Reversers, Power Management Systems, and Occupancy Detectors. Most of the cheep starter systems aren't worth anything and you usually end up buying another better system anyway at triple the cost.
I would like to see at least, that all sets be DCC ready. I bought DCC equipped Atlas Loco's and now I found out that I was given some bad advice, because I keep reading that everybody replaces the decoders anyway.

[challenger3980]

My feelings on this are, I don't understand WHY the DCC crowd feel that DC must go away, personally, I don't think that it will, Three rail AC has been running trains since 1906, it is STILL running trains, and will likely be around AFTER something newer, BETTER, and more MODERN has replaced DCC. If DCC is your cup of Tea, then Great, USE IT. But there are PLENTY of operators out there who are perfectly HAPPY with DC. Myself, the HO club that I am in is DC with a portion DCC convertible, at Home, it is THREE RAIL ALL THE WAY for Me. I don't see DC going away any time soon, and I see a lot of dual mode equipment in the future of the mid-priced and upper end stuff, while a lot of the entry level stuff will be DC or DCC Ready,

  BOTTOM LINE, use what You like, and don't worry about those of us having fun with our MODERN antiques.

                                                     Doug

[AntonioFP45]

Hi Mr Beasley

Older locomotives retire I don't think so.

I deliberatly seek out the older locomotives as they are of far better quality construction than the modern rubish with throw away motors.

My latest new loco is older than I am was fitted with the same manufacturers modern wheels,given a clean up and away it goes it will probably out live me

Buy loco and throw out in six months because its cheaper to buy a new one than replace the motor not for me thanks.

OK so the older loco's can be a bit short in the detail dept but I can live with that

No plans on ever going DCC even if its free

regards John Busby

John,  modern rubbish?  Perhaps you had a lemon or two as I've had. Years back I purchased a bluebox "new" that was a lemon.  Whether 1968 or 2008, defects still make it through the assembly line sometimes. 

But which loco's that you throw out in 6 months are you referring to??  Sorry for my puzzlement,  but I have both newer locos and some old warhorses (that I'm selling off).  These modern Atlas and Stewart units will out perform my 1970s Atlas, Athearn Blue Box, and Model Power units any day of the week.  I've "abused" modern units on my cousin-in-law's DC layout, whose freight cars are overweighted (some weigh 12 ounces!).  In front of a 30 car freight train, the blueboxes get hot after a while......the modern units, with their low amp can-motors, don't even feel warm. His powerpack gets warm quicker when the older units that draw between .50 amps and 1 amp each are running.  

Before I purchased P2K E units, I was convinced that my 1970s Model Power E units (with the huge motor that's used in O-scale units) were the most powerful carbodied plastic HO units on the market.  Needless to say, the new P2K E-units had me eating humble pie, which is why now I have 11 of them and my Model Power E units sit collecting dust.

I respect your opinion that the older units are tough and very durable, but to classify the modern locomotives in one group and call them rubbish, imho, seems unreasonable. 

Of course, I had the same sentiments regarding automobiles.  I was hard-core loyal to my 1970s gas drinking GM sports cars.........until I bought a modern Toyota.  

[jackn2mpu]

My feelings on this are, I don't understand WHY the DCC crowd feel that DC must go away, personally, I don't think that it will, Three rail AC has been running trains since 1906, it is STILL running trains, and will likely be around AFTER something newer, BETTER, and more MODERN has replaced DCC. If DCC is your cup of Tea, then Great, USE IT. But there are PLENTY of operators out there who are perfectly HAPPY with DC. Myself, the HO club that I am in is DC with a portion DCC convertible, at Home, it is THREE RAIL ALL THE WAY for Me. I don't see DC going away any time soon, and I see a lot of dual mode equipment in the future of the mid-priced and upper end stuff, while a lot of the entry level stuff will be DC or DCC Ready,

  BOTTOM LINE, use what You like, and don't worry about those of us having fun with our MODERN antiques.

                                                     Doug

Amen, brother. Yea, VHS replaced Beta and Beta died. CD's were supposed to do that with vinyl - guess what - vinyl is still selling quite well, thank you. Computers when they came into general use were supposed to sound the death knell for the paper-filled office. Hasn't happened, and there's more paper being used now than there ever was, even accounting for business growth. Digital recording was supposed to so away with analog reel-to-reel recording in studios - there are more and more studios using tape to do recording, either in addition to Pro Tools or instead of PT.

Been in the hobby for 50+ years, and still happily a user of DC control, even with the new HO and N scale layouts I'm building. 

[NevinW]

I think that there will always be a few DC layouts, particularly for the small 4X8 layouts with only 1-2 engines but for larger layouts, especially those designed for operation, DCC's advantages so out-weigh the disadvantages that I doubt many people will go to the time and expense of building a nice layout and not include DCC. Eventually DCC will be replaced with a even more technologically advanced system involving internal batteries.

I have been invited twice to operate on a very large, very beautiful prototypical layout that has been featured on the covers of MR and MRC. The first time it was a DC layout with a very complex system of rotary switches on a big panel to control power to the track. A dispatcher controlled the panel. At that visit there was a discussion with the owner of why there would never be a switch to DCC with the typical arguments- DCC is too complicated, too big a layout, too many brass engines to convert, the current system works why mess with it, "old dog, new trick", etc. The second time I operated on it, it had been recently converted to DCC. The difference in realism and fun was astounding and the owner couldn't be happier with the changes. It really made the layout come alive.

I think there will be fewer and fewer layouts built of any size that won't include DCC. Eventually an even better system will replace DCC. - Nevin

[CNJ831]

My feelings on this are, I don't understand WHY the DCC crowd feel that DC must go away, personally, I don't think that it will... 

Doug

In the earlier years of DCC's availability I used to think that many of the DCC folks had some sort of bizarre inferiority complex regarding their operating systems. Since this forum is largely populated by newbies, many may not be aware at all of the nonsense that went on regarding the use and suppose superiority of DCC, on this forum and others, around the turn of the century and earlier years.

At that time it seemed that no matter what problem, or question, arose on a forum thread and totally regardless of whether or not it involved an operating system, some DCC foamer would immediaely post saying that switching to DCC would cure it! This could span a gammit as nonsensically broad as loss of engine traction, to poorly laid track, to coupler problems! The ranting nature of these posts became so wild and the claims so absurd, as to be almost comical in nature. Likewise, the amount of downright misinformation passed along as to what DCC could actually do for you ended up terribly distorted and misunderstood for quite a spell.

Fortunately, most of this absolute foamer mentallity has passed from the scene in regard to DCC but you still occasionally will see extreme DCC-bias posts that reflect this earlier illness. Just like with some religious sects, it seems some DCCers just can't resign themselves to having DC operating systems as the decided majority in the hobby - especially if they've spent a small fortune on DCC. I'll be the first to admit that DCC has some nice features but at the same time I'd venture to say that it will not even overtake DC as the hobby's majority operating system over the next decade and perhaps quite a bit longer.  

CNJ831