I think the DCC socket with DC plug will become standard, it seems to be well on the way. Then you can plug in a DCC decoder if you want. But I don't see DCC as standard until the price comes down some more. As near as I can tell, with discount the DCC starter sets are about $150 plus the cost of the decoders in each locomotive and a power pack is about $35. Plus the DC system is simpler and you don't have to worry about blowing a decoder.
Instead of being like VHS and Beta, I think it will be more like stick shift and automatic. DC continues but DCC becomes more popular once cost comes down.
Enjoy
Paul
doctorwayne,It's not easy, but yes, I have "controlled" two DCC locos/trains at one time in the yard. Mainly, I use this ability to run the road power out to the departure yard while I'm still drilling cars on the yard lead, or to move road power of incoming trains to the engine facility while drilling cars. It's not something that I do constantly, as it is quite difficult to split one's attention.
More often (but still rare), I run a road train while switching a yard at the same time. With a DT400 throttle (and it's two throttle knobs) it's very simple to do so.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul3 wrote:doctorwayne,It's not easy, but yes, I have "controlled" two DCC locos/trains at one time in the yard. Mainly, I use this ability to run the road power out to the departure yard while I'm still drilling cars on the yard lead, or to move road power of incoming trains to the engine facility while drilling cars. It's not something that I do constantly, as it is quite difficult to split one's attention.More often (but still rare), I run a road train while switching a yard at the same time. With a DT400 throttle (and it's two throttle knobs) it's very simple to do so.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven
************
Well, I can run two or three trains at the same time on DC, too, but only one will actually be under control. What I'm trying to say is that a moving train with no operator devoted to it is basically out of control - my layout has speed limits, speed restrictions, etc. that demand the "engineer" pay attention - in my opinion, that also ensures that he gets the maximum enjoyment out of that moving train. Different strokes, I suppose.
Wayne
- Harry
you may not be so aware the adult industry does tend to drive technology around a bit...
As far as DCC taking over DC, I find in the world of tracklaying, your still going to end up doing all the things done in a DC layout is going to happen for a DCC layout. Some areas of wiring are simplified, but because of DCC it introduces other problems just by the fact of its own technology.
So even doing DCC, it won't excuse good wiring, period.
Getting back into the hobby not quite 3 years ago, I was blown away about what DCC offers! One of the things years back that intimidated me was all the block wiring/switches that went with DC. (I am aware that DCC takes a good bit of feeder wires (but that's the most I know of it at this point, so bear with me-I'll do considerable more research once the time comes & needed.)
Jim Hediger, whose Ohio Southern I drool over day after day in the 9/05 issue of MR, is wired for DC for that was "what to do" when it was wired. His philosophy is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" It still works good for him, so he doesn't plan on changing it. He did say if he had to rebuild or start over, he would go with DCC though.
Interesting about the VHS/Beta thing-I have a bud who for some strange reason always went out & bought stuff when it was 1st introduced-meaning a Beta camcorder & player, & VHS camcorder & player. (at the "then" cost of several thousand $$$-he never waited for the cost to come down ) anyways, he took Beta vid of his son when he was a toddler, & some of his Dad (who passed away suddenly shortly after) I was on him constantly to have it transferred to VHS (this was before DVD) before his Beta player went out, but he never did at the last report. I haven't seen or talked to him in quite awhile, but when I do, & find out his player finally went out, I don't want to be the one to tell him "I told you so", as he's a LOT bigger than I am, & could turn me into mincemeat if he could!
Just my & probably needless ramblings.
Wow.. Some of you are Really dating yourselves here. ASTRAC, 6 Volt Standard? I saw an ASTRAC setup once at a train show. Some widow was selling off her late husband's stuff. Complete set with the station and several receivers (wasn't 6 the max on a setup?). I almost bought it just for the interest of the thing. Wasn't the 6v standard just after W.W.II? Seems like I read that somewhere once.
As for the question at hand, look how fast RTR took off. Not the train set junque but the detailed $30 per car preasssembled, slap it on the layout and go. I was in the LHS recently and it somewhat suprised me how Few rolling stock Kits were still available. Even buildings, accessories (like turntables), people in general seem to prefer the convenience of buy it and set it down. I think as long as people are able to build layouts, dads buy the kiddies the first train set, DC will always be on the scene. Like HO scale overtook O scale in use and popularity (in the USA) however, DCC will have the lion's share of the market.
off topic With respect to the VHS vs DVD (of any flavor), I've NEVER rented a VHS, took it home to watch, and had the message 0013 DISK IS DIRTY flash on my television screen. I never rented a VHS tape that constantly skipped because some jerk couldn't keep his fingers off of the surface.
eeyore9900 wrote: Interesting about the VHS/Beta thing-I have a bud who for some strange reason always went out & bought stuff when it was 1st introduced-meaning a Beta camcorder & player, & VHS camcorder & player.
Interesting about the VHS/Beta thing-I have a bud who for some strange reason always went out & bought stuff when it was 1st introduced-meaning a Beta camcorder & player, & VHS camcorder & player.
I went with Beta over VHS for my first VCR simply because Toshiba had come out with a "portable" recorder that could be hooked up to a camera. It had two separate boxes instead of one and to make it portable, you simply unhooked the larger one which held the tape from the smaller box which I'm guessing was the brains of the unit. The portable box was about the size of a backpack and designed to be carried over your shoulder. Video cameras back then were also fairly large. The thing set me back about a grand in 1980 which would translate to about 3 grand in today's dollars. The stupid thing is I never did get a camera for it.
Driline wrote: loathar wrote: Blank VHS tapes are still readily available. Like DC locomotives will be for a long time to come.Anynody know WHY VHS beat out Beta?Yes.Although Beta was of slightly superior quality in terms of color reproduction, it was waaayy more expensive. The public voted with their wallets and it was eventually doomed. It didn't help that Sony was the only other manufacturer of the technology either.I'm really surprised that Blue Ray won out over HD DVD. HD DVD was less expensive, but apparently some of the other big studios threw their hats towards Blue ray because of the larger storage capabilities they could see as furthering their revenue stream.
loathar wrote: Blank VHS tapes are still readily available. Like DC locomotives will be for a long time to come.Anynody know WHY VHS beat out Beta?
Blank VHS tapes are still readily available. Like DC locomotives will be for a long time to come.
Anynody know WHY VHS beat out Beta?
Yes.
Although Beta was of slightly superior quality in terms of color reproduction, it was waaayy more expensive. The public voted with their wallets and it was eventually doomed. It didn't help that Sony was the only other manufacturer of the technology either.
I'm really surprised that Blue Ray won out over HD DVD. HD DVD was less expensive, but apparently some of the other big studios threw their hats towards Blue ray because of the larger storage capabilities they could see as furthering their revenue stream.
loathar wrote: Driline wrote: loathar wrote: Blank VHS tapes are still readily available. Like DC locomotives will be for a long time to come.Anynody know WHY VHS beat out Beta?Yes.Although Beta was of slightly superior quality in terms of color reproduction, it was waaayy more expensive. The public voted with their wallets and it was eventually doomed. It didn't help that Sony was the only other manufacturer of the technology either.Wrong. The adult movie industry couldn't fit a full length movie on a single Beta so they threw their support behind VHS.
Driline wrote: loathar wrote: Blank VHS tapes are still readily available. Like DC locomotives will be for a long time to come.Anynody know WHY VHS beat out Beta?Yes.Although Beta was of slightly superior quality in terms of color reproduction, it was waaayy more expensive. The public voted with their wallets and it was eventually doomed. It didn't help that Sony was the only other manufacturer of the technology either.
Wrong. The adult movie industry couldn't fit a full length movie on a single Beta so they threw their support behind VHS.
Actually you're both wrong! I was a Technical Sales Representative for JVC for 15 years and here's the real story:
The original 3/4" video cassette (U-matic) was co-developed byJVC, Matsushita (Panasonic) and Sony. When Sony and JVC developed the two 1/2" video cassette systems, Sony "borrowed" the helical scan technology that JVC developed, (and patented) for the U-matic. JVC sued Sony and eventually won the exclusive rights to the helical scan technology and Sony (and Toshiba, the other producer of Betamax) were ordered to cease producing new models and could only produce enough Beta machines as replacement models for the then current Betamax owners. Sony and Toshiba also had to pay a licensing fee to JVC for every Betamax and VHS machine produced. All the tape manufactures also had/have to pay JVC licensing fees. Panasonic produced the first VHS vcr under license from JVC in 1976.
It was only in the US where VHS outsold Beta, (about 60%/40%), in Europe Beta was the clear winner at about 80% of the market, the rest of the world was split abot 50/50.
It's true that the Beta picture quality was a bit better in SP mode, (the tape speed was a bit faster, which is why Sony was the first to produce the longer tapes so they could fit programs longer than 120 minutes on them). JVC always had Sony beat in the EP (6hr/T-120) mode.
Sorry to be so long-winded on an off-topic.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Both DC and DCC will go the way of VHS. Here's why:
http://cs.trains.com/forums/1452043/ShowPost.aspx
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
Brunton wrote: Both DC and DCC will go the way of VHS. Here's why:http://cs.trains.com/forums/1452043/ShowPost.aspx
My a nickel now (inflation). I tend to agree with Brunton here. However, one must inticipate an Al something or other (pun intended) to find some kind of radiation from such technology to contribute to goble destruction. Also it may be that if a loco with this technology should leave the rails and fall to the floor, a hazmat team must be called in for clean up. With this in mind DC will probabley still be around on the black market. Ken
doctorwayne wrote: Paul3 wrote: doctorwayne,It's not easy, but yes, I have "controlled" two DCC locos/trains at one time in the yard. Mainly, I use this ability to run the road power out to the departure yard while I'm still drilling cars on the yard lead, or to move road power of incoming trains to the engine facility while drilling cars. It's not something that I do constantly, as it is quite difficult to split one's attention.More often (but still rare), I run a road train while switching a yard at the same time. With a DT400 throttle (and it's two throttle knobs) it's very simple to do so.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************Well, I can run two or three trains at the same time on DC, too, but only one will actually be under control. What I'm trying to say is that a moving train with no operator devoted to it is basically out of control - my layout has speed limits, speed restrictions, etc. that demand the "engineer" pay attention - in my opinion, that also ensures that he gets the maximum enjoyment out of that moving train. Different strokes, I suppose. Wayne
Paul3 wrote: doctorwayne,It's not easy, but yes, I have "controlled" two DCC locos/trains at one time in the yard. Mainly, I use this ability to run the road power out to the departure yard while I'm still drilling cars on the yard lead, or to move road power of incoming trains to the engine facility while drilling cars. It's not something that I do constantly, as it is quite difficult to split one's attention.More often (but still rare), I run a road train while switching a yard at the same time. With a DT400 throttle (and it's two throttle knobs) it's very simple to do so.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
With a handheld controller like Digitrax has with two control / direction controls, you can use two engines together in one yard without having to throw toggle switches or worry about one getting into the "block" that the other one is using etc. That's the point of DCC - you run the engine directly. In DCC you run the power block of track, and all the engines in the block run to the same command. With two operators, each can control an engine. In a yard situation, two switchers could be used to put together a train without having to throw toggles and keep an eye out for where their block ends. It's much more like operating the real thing than DC is.
Plus it's a lot easier to use DCC control values to get two engines to run perfectly together than it is to try to use resistors etc. to try to get them to run the same. Not to mention lighting and sound options.
wjstix wrote: Mac vs. PC was the same thing too.
Mac vs. PC was the same thing too.
It's exactly the same--because IBM licensed PC to anyone who wanted to make it, so everyone did, prices dropped, and now there are a lot more PCs than MACs, made by Apple, which will not license it.
JVC licensed VHS to anyone who wanted to make it, so everyone did, prices dropped, and so there were a lot more VHS than Betamax, made by Sony, which would not license it.
By the way, Betamax cassettes could hold up to five hours of material by 1976, so the adult-flim rationale falls into the category of urban legend.
When it comes to electronics, everything is just a new step forward. Improvements are always on the horizon. Back in the 60's we had 4 track tapes, then 8 track tapes, then cassettes and finally dvds.
I have a large G scale layout indoors and I run by myself. My layout has 32 blocks and I run DC, with a tether control (2 control panels). I have 4 locomotives with sound (8 locomotives without sound) and rarely use it. After a while the sound gets on my nerves. I have single track mainline with several passing sidings. I can put 2 trains out in the same direction at the same time.
If we ever sell our home and downsize to something smaller. I would go back to HO and run DC. It is what I know and I am comfortable with it. Thinking back over 50 plus years, I have run alone most of the time.
DCC is only another step in the move to operate trains realistically. Some will stay with DCC and others will take that next step to what is next.
Midnight Railroader wrote: By the way, Betamax cassettes could hold up to five hours of material by 1976, so the adult-flim rationale falls into the category of urban legend.
They only held 1 hour when they first came out. THAT is what doomed them.
wjstix wrote:With a handheld controller like Digitrax has with two control / direction controls, you can use two engines together in one yard without having to throw toggle switches or worry about one getting into the "block" that the other one is using etc. That's the point of DCC - you run the engine directly. In DCC you run the power block of track, and all the engines in the block run to the same command. With two operators, each can control an engine. In a yard situation, two switchers could be used to put together a train without having to throw toggles and keep an eye out for where their block ends. It's much more like operating the real thing than DC is.
I agree completely with the highlighted part of your statement, and that that certainly is a superior way of handling that situation. If I had multiple operators, I wouldn't hesitate to convert my 40 or 50 locos to DCC. However, for a lone operator, one train being worked simultaneously by two locos seems too much like the "one-armed paper hanger" scenario for me.
wjstix wrote: Plus it's a lot easier to use DCC control values to get two engines to run perfectly together than it is to try to use resistors etc. to try to get them to run the same. Not to mention lighting and sound options.
Well, I don't bother with resistors or such, but any of my locos that I wish to run together do so quite capably, in almost any combination, and anywhere in the train, too. Almost all trains run as doubleheaders (heavy trains, lots of curves, and fairly steep grades), but I've also used pushers and mid-train helpers, too. I do like to "tweak" my locos, but that's mostly to increase their tractive effort.
As I mentioned before, light and sound capabilities are impressive in DCC, although the first time the light flickers, the illusion is shot for me. As for sound, I find it annoying, but after almost 40 years in a steel mill, a lot of sounds are annoying. Headlight circuitry is worth about an ounce of added weight in a steam loco, and circuit boards and speakers infringe upon the space required for open coal bunkers and added tender weight for more reliable electrical contact. And I do admit that that may be viewed as a poor trade-off by DCC users.
I suspect that serious operators and clubs will continue to benefit from the use of DCC, but that many "dabblers" in trains will lose interest in the hobby simply because the hobby will hold no challenges for them - they won't know how to build a kit, tune a loco, or actually operate their trains. When technology can do it all for you, what's the point? It becomes the loop around the Christmas tree, writ large.
Midnight Railroader wrote: wjstix wrote: Mac vs. PC was the same thing too. It's exactly the same--because IBM licensed PC to anyone who wanted to make it, so everyone did, prices dropped, and now there are a lot more PCs than MACs, made by Apple, which will not license it.JVC licensed VHS to anyone who wanted to make it, so everyone did, prices dropped, and so there were a lot more VHS than Betamax, made by Sony, which would not license it.By the way, Betamax cassettes could hold up to five hours of material by 1976, so the adult-flim rationale falls into the category of urban legend.
DCC and code 83 are not 'State of the Art'.
They are 'Stations' along the way to improvement, but it has to be 'affordable' to get there. VHS beat out BETA because it's format accepted poorer, slower, quality 6 hours (3 movies) - not because it was better.
BETA had a superior mechanism and better audio, first. 'Proffesional TV stations used Beta for their on-location, (not VHS). 'U Matic' found favor for 'plug-in' commercials.
BACK TO MODEL RR'ING: RF control is a-waiting in the wings, as are 'fine scale' wheels and track. Enjoy what you have, when you can, & while you can afford it.
The only thing constant in this world is "change". Some like it, some hate it, some fear it, others just deal with it. It will be interesting to see what the answer will be to this question in about 20 or 30 years when most of the old timers are in that great RR in the sky. The new crop of modelers rising up in the ranks will be from the computer generation, many will be well versed in electronics, and will want more instant gratification in their hobby/s. In 20 years we will have much smaller electronics, so fitting chips in locomotives will be a no-brainer, and battery technology or other energy cell technology will have advanced greatly, so track power will be a thing of the past......just like 8 track and VHS.
betamax wrote:The IBM PC was quickly designed using off the shelf parts. Nothing special. The only thing special was the BIOS. Didn't take Compaq long to create their own reverse engineered version, thanks to all the documentation IBM published about their BIOS. IBM's big mistake was not locking down the operating system, giving Compaq access to an almost identical OS.
They didn't need to reverse engineer. All that documentation included a bios source code listing. I had that manual.
To get back to the original subject...
I rather suspect that sometime in the future DCC as we know it today will go the way of 8-track stereo when some new, completely incompatible supersystem featuring on-board batteries and totally dead track moves in to replace it.
In the meantime, stone-age throwbacks who can figure out how to make a DC power supply out of a wall wart, a bridge rectifier, a rotary switch and a fistful of resistors will continue to run DC. At that point, I'll be laughing my head off.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)
Doesn't Brunton have a parallel thread on the same subject? Maybe you guys are driving me insane............ That would be an easy accomplishment.
Marl
Randall_Roberts wrote: loathar wrote: Blank VHS tapes are still readily available. Like DC locomotives will be for a long time to come.Anynody know WHY VHS beat out Beta?Beta wasn't slightly technologically superior, it was VASTLY superior. It used a single-arm spindle mechanism that pulled the tape 3/4 around the tape head for better contact and a vastly improved image. The VHS mechanisms used two spindle arms that only gave 1/2 diameter contact with the tape heads.VHS beat Beta, as others have said, on price and storage capacity. But the unseen factor was that it was a proprietary system made only by Sony while Matsushita opened the VHS specifications up to other manufacturers, just as IBM opened up their vastly inferior PC architecture and had contracts that allowed MS to sell the OS to other PC manufacturers, while Apple kept the vastly superior Macintosh architecture proptietary. As with the Mac, A variant of Beta did survive, Betacam was a popular commercial format and is still around.However, the DC standard in model railroading has a history dating back well over half a century, while these electronic products barely reach back two decades. DC will be around in some form. But it will be interesting to watch and see how much of the market DCC takes, and what forms it evolves into.Best!
Beta wasn't slightly technologically superior, it was VASTLY superior. It used a single-arm spindle mechanism that pulled the tape 3/4 around the tape head for better contact and a vastly improved image. The VHS mechanisms used two spindle arms that only gave 1/2 diameter contact with the tape heads.
VHS beat Beta, as others have said, on price and storage capacity. But the unseen factor was that it was a proprietary system made only by Sony while Matsushita opened the VHS specifications up to other manufacturers, just as IBM opened up their vastly inferior PC architecture and had contracts that allowed MS to sell the OS to other PC manufacturers, while Apple kept the vastly superior Macintosh architecture proptietary. As with the Mac, A variant of Beta did survive, Betacam was a popular commercial format and is still around.
However, the DC standard in model railroading has a history dating back well over half a century, while these electronic products barely reach back two decades. DC will be around in some form. But it will be interesting to watch and see how much of the market DCC takes, and what forms it evolves into.
Best!
Randall -- Good to see that somebody knows the Beta/VHS - Mac/PC parallels and the reason for their respective failure/success!
Moral of the story: sharing will make you richer.
Craig
DMW
Dallas Model Works wrote: Randall_Roberts wrote: loathar wrote: Blank VHS tapes are still readily available. Like DC locomotives will be for a long time to come.Anynody know WHY VHS beat out Beta?Beta wasn't slightly technologically superior, it was VASTLY superior. It used a single-arm spindle mechanism that pulled the tape 3/4 around the tape head for better contact and a vastly improved image. The VHS mechanisms used two spindle arms that only gave 1/2 diameter contact with the tape heads.VHS beat Beta, as others have said, on price and storage capacity. But the unseen factor was that it was a proprietary system made only by Sony while Matsushita opened the VHS specifications up to other manufacturers, just as IBM opened up their vastly inferior PC architecture and had contracts that allowed MS to sell the OS to other PC manufacturers, while Apple kept the vastly superior Macintosh architecture proptietary. As with the Mac, A variant of Beta did survive, Betacam was a popular commercial format and is still around.However, the DC standard in model railroading has a history dating back well over half a century, while these electronic products barely reach back two decades. DC will be around in some form. But it will be interesting to watch and see how much of the market DCC takes, and what forms it evolves into.Best! Randall -- Good to see that somebody knows the Beta/VHS - Mac/PC parallels and the reason for their respective failure/success!Moral of the story: sharing will make you richer.
I really hate to harp on this, but it was JVC that invented VHS, reference: http://www.ieee.org/web/aboutus/history_center/vhs.html . Matsushita (Panasonic) had nothing to do with it's invention other than being the first manufacturer to be licensed to produce VHS and brought the first VHS vcr to market six months before JVC.
This is kind of like asking "Will electric guitars ever replace acoustic guitars?" and the answer is, No! Yes, the electric guitar is far more common, but the acoustic is still made and used in large numbers in the non-rock industry. And even then, many rock bands will bust out an acoustic version of a single. (Such as the acoustic version of "Tears Don't Fall" by Bullet for My Valentine.)
Not to mention DCC just doesn't make sense for some layouts! If you have a display layout, with say 4 independent tracks with trains just running in circles, it would not make sense to use a DCC system on that layout. You'd be better off with 4 DC powerpacks. Or 2 MRC dual control power packs.
And as was stated earlier in the thread, DCC isn't a completely new format. It is a middle man. The tracks are fed an unusable Bi-polar DC, the current has commands for a specific decoder in it, and the decoder responds by turning x-amount of Bi-polar DC into usable Uni-polar (correct my terminology if I'm wrong) DC for motor. So no, DC layouts will never go away.
wjstix wrote:Anyway...I can't see young folks joining the hobby not using DCC in the future, so I suspect DC will go like outside-third-rail in O scale - you'll see people using it for a long time, (MR featured such a layout around 1990 IIRC)
Anyway...I can't see young folks joining the hobby not using DCC in the future, so I suspect DC will go like outside-third-rail in O scale - you'll see people using it for a long time, (MR featured such a layout around 1990 IIRC)
FYI, last Feburary, MR did a story on an outside 3rd rail O scale layout.
John Armstrong's Canadaguia Southern!
Friends of John's told me he was seriously considering converting it to outside 3rd rail DCC before his passing!
DC will be with us for a very long time, as there are those out there who don't want to mess with DCC, don't care, or for that matter, don't have the extra $$$$ to spend on DCC accessories.
Brunton wrote:Both DC and DCC will go the way of VHS. Here's why:http://cs.trains.com/forums/1452043/ShowPost.aspx
This is the only sensible reply so far.
-G-