Busted!!

[vsmith]

OK this is getting out of hand here. ACL's point is valid...

1st off, TRESPASSING ON RAILROAD PROPERTY IS ILLEGAL.

OK Now that we've said it, accept it, its the LAW! no one here is going to aurgue that they have a "right to photo" on someone elses property. If they do I'de love to hear the case for it vs the rights of property owners. Trespassing on private property is a crime in the eyes of the law, granted more a misdemenor, not a felony. The aurgument of someone using your backyard without permission is apropriate, otherwise for example film crews could set up camera's wherever they wanted without your permission, what were blocking your driveway?too bad!

2nd off, FOAMERS WILL TRESPASS.

OK Lets accept that! Foamers will go to some pretty serious extremes to get photos, etc. No one will aurgue that either, I've seen it. I've seen them hanging off trees on cuts to get that overhead shot. This is just the nature of the hobby, its going to happen

3rd off. If there is a railroad cop near you ITS HIS DUTY to shoo you away if your on RR ROW.

OK lets accept that. Hes doing his JOB. He paid to keep you from getting hurt on RR property and thus a possible lawsuit from someone who might get hurt even while trespassing. We live in a society where you can sue someone for getting hurt while robbing a store. If you are clearly on posted RR property he has the obligation to shoo you off. If he comes off RR property to hastle you then you have a guy who's got some issues. One foamer I talked to told me of an incident where he was taking pictures from a fast food parking lot next to the tracks while eating lunch, a RR cop told him he was trespassing, to which he told the cop to ask the owners of the restaruant whos property he was on, the cop left.

4th off If your on RR ROW doing something stupid enough to warrent arrest YOU DESERVE IT!


OK think about that! If your on RR ROW taking pictures, the cops wont arrest you, they'll ask you to leave. If your on RR ROW standing in the middle of the tracks at an onecoming train or on top of a moving frieght car taking pictures, maybe you NEED to have your *** arrested. Capish? taking picturers is one thing, doing something that can result in injury or death is another. If you get arrested in front of your kids while doing something stupid then good, maybe your kids will learn a valuable life lesson...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

Thte fact the ACL fan tormented, and threatened various Teenagers on this forum, is NOT irrelevant, as a matter of fact, If we can't function as a proper society, this entire forum concept goes down the Toilet.

Please show me the specific posts under my name in which I threatened anyone of any age on this forum. Since you seem positive I have done so, I'd be interested in seeing where and when I do that.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MAbruce

QUOTE: Originally posted by rda1964


ACL Fan is catching considerable flak for stating a correct position. Name calling him won't improve the counterargument. Trespass is illegal, setting a scoff-law example for children is worse. Defending trespass as the moral equal of a "speed-trap" won't fly. The area was admittedly known to be railroad property and well posted.

I wonder what turn the dialog will take when one or more children argue: "What I did was no worse than railfanning trespass"?

Bottom line: Confine railfanning to public property and do it safely.

Randy

I’m going to set aside my “stay away from these kinds of threads” policy and chime in here because I think this is a serious safety issue.

Many here don’t seem to like ACL Fan, but the issue being discussed is trespassing on RR property in order to railfan. I’m not going to judge how ACL Fan may be treating the younger people on this forum, but the position he states is correct. Also, what Randy said is 110 percent correct. Period.

This is more than obeying a law, trespassing being illegal, and not showing any respect for other peoples property. It’s about safety and understanding the times we live in. Things are not going to be the same anymore. All that changed on 9/11.

You may not like the railroads, the RR police, Ashcroft, the president, or whatever. So couldn’t we just respect the laws to honor the thousands of people who have already sacrificed their lives in this war?

Look, hahaha, this is going ot be good...

Your postion or opinion is IRRELEVANT if you have the incapability to state it properly..

(note Your doesn't mean You or him, means "Everyone indirectly")

How yould you like it in my opinion, If i dissed you up about 25 times? you'd be Fruiated!

Look telling someone, Well i don't like Tresspassing is not the smartest Idea, is one thing, But adding, I hope you get arrested and I hope your wife finds out..or whatever he wrote, is not necesary, it deviates form the fact, it is NOT going to discourage tresspassing, and it only Builds up resentment.

Thte fact the ACL fan tormented, and threatened various Teenagers on this forum, is NOT irrelevant, as a matter of fact, If we can't function as a proper society, this entire forum concept goes down the Toilet.

I don't know where your from, but where i'm from, For an adult to be threatening a teenager is a serious offence. But just because it is over the interent and we can't see his face that makes it in your terms socially acceptable?


We are now looking at bigger socail issues, and the fact, that ACL fan seems to have an inability ot properly state how he feels without putting soemone down. There is somehting seriously wrong with that.

That is what we are debating now, And it is a seriosu issue, and Can not be put on the back burner.

If Fully Grown mature Adults can get away with speaking to Children in such as what we have seen that illustrates a complete Failure of bystanders and Society as a person to do play there roles properly.

I know for one, I won't sit back and wathc this, Although i don't know many people here, My instincs are to protect anyone from threats such as him. Perhaps no one can grasp how serious this is, but imagine the same situation took place in a public park..

The police would ahve been involved for sure.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACL Fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

I view trespassing like speeding on the highway, it happens, just don't get caught. This comment may draw some heat form some members, but this is my opinion, and I'll stand by it. This whole thread has been about just that, getting caught in the railroad's "speed trap". I got off with a warning, but I don't plan to change, just choose my times more wisely.

You're hurting everyone who likes to railfan when you do that. Thanks for your thoughtlessness.

And when you DO get caught, you deserve to be arrested and prosecuted. Then you can explain to your children, whom you're teaching to break the law when they don't like it, why Daddy's getting handcuffed and placed in the back seat of a police car.

Also, the wife will love it.

I have thought about ACL's response...

Arrest and Prosecution should be used more delicately. People are not automatically guilty of the worst extreme of an offense just because they broke a minor law. That's why he recieved a warning... because police are given that flexibility.

The real question is how many feet seperated him and public property? I mean to arrest someone for stepping "out of line" (or litterally stepping a few feet,) is a real problem. Now, if they were on the tracks or in a rail yard, okay... but think about the extreme you are promoting. What if they were literally just "looking" from the wrong side of an invisible line? I think it would amaze you to know how many laws you break in a day, most people are amazed when they get reminded and cited.

I guess my main point is, why wish anyone have a permanent mark on their record for what is clearly an innocent admiration of the railroad in their area? Remember, this was the "norm" for YEARS... until 9/11, so it is obviously a heightened sense of "security" (also known as paranoia.)

I think what is most troubling about your response is how confrontational you come off. If this were an isolated thing, I would feel just as I described above, "no big deal, it was just his emotion about this topic." Instead, I have to say that reading many of your inflamatory posts in recent weeks, you are literally out there laying for a fight. Very harsh...

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rda1964


ACL Fan is catching considerable flak for stating a correct position. Name calling him won't improve the counterargument. Trespass is illegal, setting a scoff-law example for children is worse. Defending trespass as the moral equal of a "speed-trap" won't fly. The area was admittedly known to be railroad property and well posted.

I wonder what turn the dialog will take when one or more children argue: "What I did was no worse than railfanning trespass"?

Bottom line: Confine railfanning to public property and do it safely.

Randy

I’m going to set aside my “stay away from these kinds of threads” policy and chime in here because I think this is a serious safety issue.

Many here don’t seem to like ACL Fan, but the issue being discussed is trespassing on RR property in order to railfan. I’m not going to judge how ACL Fan may be treating the younger people on this forum, but the position he states is correct. Also, what Randy said is 110 percent correct. Period.

This is more than obeying a law, trespassing being illegal, and not showing any respect for other peoples property. It’s about safety and understanding the times we live in. Things are not going to be the same anymore. All that changed on 9/11.

You may not like the railroads, the RR police, Ashcroft, the president, or whatever. So couldn’t we just respect the laws to honor the thousands of people who have already sacrificed their lives in this war?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lupo

Maybe some railroad companies could provide room for railfanning? a fenced off parkingplace at a place where railfans can safely do their fanning?
we have that at our national airport for plainfanning (spotters they are called)
close to the airfield with good view they made some parking lots for those guys

Consider yourself lucky. Since 9/11 our airport closed those parking spaces people used to sit and view from. Now, in all fairness they are performing a lot of construction around Lambert, so they may "re-appear" but not with all of the talk about ground based attacks such as what happened to El-Al in Africa late last year.

[lupo]

Maybe some railroad companies could provide room for railfanning? a fenced off parkingplace at a place where railfans can safely do their fanning?
we have that at our national airport for plainfanning (spotters they are called)
close to the airfield with good view they made some parking lots for those guys

[Fergmiester]

Not to take sides but if you want some insight go to one of your news www sight and go through the archives using words like arson, train wreck, derailment etc. It will kinda blow you away as you realize what happens "out there" on a day to day basis. The following are some sample I dug out, One in particular which occurred in my neck of the woods. A 15 year old bot tampered with a lock on a turnout and derailed a passenger train, which was doing about 60 mph at the time.

http://www.libdems.org.uk/module/printnews.cfm/article.4620
http://montreal.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=qc_rail20040902
http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/CBC/2003/06/20/lumber_train030620
http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/CBC/2003/03/11/stewiacke_rpt030311

Better locks might have prevented train wreck
Last Updated Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:22:40
HALIFAX - Trespassing and vandalism were the main reasons a Via passenger train went off the rails in Stewiacke, N.S., nearly two years ago, the Transportation Safety Board of Canada has concluded.
The board released its final report on Tuesday into the derailment that injured 22 people on April 12, 2001.
The recommendations contained in the report include putting more secure locks on rail switches, which the board says most rail companies are doing.
The train, with two locomotives and 14 cars, was en route from Halifax to Montreal when nine cars jumped off the track and slammed into a farm supply store.
#61623; RELATED: Sabotage not ruled out in N.S. Via train crash
#61623; RELATED: Youth sentenced to six months for derailing train
A switch had been tampered with, sending some of the cars onto an industrial side rail.
A teenage boy was sentenced to six months in reformatory last fall for breaking the lock and tampering with the switch.


The stats are definately not in our favour and as always it just takes one bad apple to spoil it for everyone.

If you read the incidents of terrorism and sabotage in other regions of the world you will realize how lucky we are and that someone is looking out for us.

[lupo]

RDA1964,
IMHO !
I think ACL Fan catched considerable flak because of his overall negative attitude specially towards our younger members in a lot off the stuff he posts lately
IMHO!

[Anonymous]

ACL Fan is catching considerable flak for stating a correct position. Name calling him won't improve the counterargument. Trespass is illegal, setting a scoff-law example for children is worse. Defending trespass as the moral equal of a "speed-trap" won't fly. The area was admittedly known to be railroad property and well posted.

I wonder what turn the dialog will take when one or more children argue: "What I did was no worse than railfanning trespass"?

Bottom line: Confine railfanning to public property and do it safely.

Randy

[Anonymous]

Welcome to Ashcroft's America. I'm gonna avoid a political flame war on this site, mainly because I don't frequent this site enough to really hold an ongoing discussion.
Along the same lines as you worrying about terrorist crap that seems to be used an excuse for almost everything nowadays, (including the Bush (the puppet prez) admin member referring to the Teacher's Union as a terrorist organization, read the news (non-FOX) if you don't believe me), I''ve got a roll of film that I'm afraid of gettting developed, just because it contains pics of planes AND buildings. I used to live in a 5 story building where I had roof access, and it had an incredible view of the surrounding city (Albany, NY) AND was in the main flight path of planes descending to Albany International. But now I can't even go get it developed, for fear of being accosted by whatever law enforcement agency would be interested.
Basically, it sucks and do not expect it to get any better. And maybe do a quick re-read of 1984 and start noticing that truth is becoming stranger than fiction.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Unfortunately, I just discovered this item this morning. The remark next to the number one hot spot confirms my worst fears.

http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/004/641xdmac.asp

Though some people may think that I caused this to happen, the truth is that I don't actually go there very often, and the railroad thought this crap up on their own.

I am giving serious thought to following through on my previous threat to purchase stock in all 3 railroads and fight to regain access to this spot!!!

This morning's quotes were:

BNI $32 per share
UNP $64 per share
CP $24 per share

By the way, it was CP that was responsible for the extra signage.

[lupo]

Well said KevintheRRman !

maybe you can help the poor dude . . .
he is so bitter

have a great day and stay safe!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

O.k. guys, let's not have anymore fights. I know I speak for dougal, CNWfan5525 and myself when I say this. BTW dougal , railfanning on the KCS is illegal? Wow. Hope I don't get Busted when I go railfanning this spring!

Yeah it is. If you're caught railfanning you're a terrorist to them (from what I've heard)

[Anonymous]

Your Welcome, and no problem.

I may not like what you do, but hey, we have different opinions, And I on't smash you down for having yours.

ACL seems to be angry at the whole world, I'd hate to go grocery shopping with him/her!

Seems like you have some anger issues you might want to consider working out.. My E-mail is listed, press the button, And I'll see what I can do.

You know, when your feeling angry, taking it out on everyone else leads to anger, bad feelings, hostile relationships, and much much more.

Now unless you like your very own social life imploding on itself, you may want to consider changing track, and look at the Brighter things in life!

My it is a beautiful day!!

Have a hreat day EVERYONE

Cheers.

[Anonymous]

O.k. guys, let's not have anymore fights. I know I speak for dougal, CNWfan5525 and myself when I say this. BTW dougal , railfanning on the KCS is illegal? Wow. Hope I don't get Busted when I go railfanning this spring!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Kevin and Fergie and everyone else who supports me on this issue.

This was never intended as a legal or moral debate. It was just me telling of my experience yesterday, and commenting on the fact that for years this particular location has been a well known and publicized place to watch and photograph trains, albeit not with the blessing of the railroads, but certainly with a blind eye toward enforcement!!!!

A precident was clearly established, and suddenly there was a change. I have no idea if this is a new policy towards enforcement or if this was just a fluke encounter. The use of this particular spot is a privilege that railfans have been afforded for years, even though the railroad has every right to deny access to it. However if they were truly serious about it they would erect a fence, as this is a relatively small area.

Large companies have long used signage to attempt to deter the public from accessing their property. In the case of railroads it is mainly for the safety of the general public. This location is a small gravel parking lot next to the public street, the problem is that it is really the only safe place to leave your vehicle for miles.

I have the utmost respect for private property owned by individuals, however I take the view that large publicly held corporations do not necessarily share the same level of privacy as individuals. I'm not sure how the law views this issue, but on Monday morning I plan to purchase a share of stock in BNSF, CP, and UP. This will make me a part owner of the companies involved, and entitle me to a copy of their annual reports, and a vote at the annual meeting.

Maybe the real truth is that the officer who asked me to leave, had no choice but to do so, as he would not have been doing HIS duty if he had allowed me to stay while he was parked there.

[dharmon]

Well I would suppose that your definition of stalking and mine would be different...stalking would mean that I seek you out......unfortunately it's the other way around...I can't seem to be able to read a thread without finding another example of you trying to beat up on a kid for having fun or getting another lesson in the world according to the middle aged and jaded....

...but as sad and pathetic as it may seem...you turning your guns on an adult pleases me, because it is so rare....but since this is not going to do anything but waste bandwith..and since it's approaching dinner time out here on the wrong coast I'm going go for now. I bid you adieu bitter one....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Big Girl....

Don't even waste your time with him...he likes taking shots and running....now that he has found out you are an adult, he probably won't even respond...

Thanks dharmon,
The reason I felt the need to post on Big_Boys behalf is that his actions seem to be being to taken to the far end of an extreme. Almost like the worst example of a ridiculous zero-tolerance policy(ie....the 6 year old child being suspended or expelled for bringing a toy sword to school). I guess I don't see things as being so black and white as others.[:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACL Fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

No instead I'm going to be internet bully like yourself....pointing out the flaws in others and generally spreading my pent up anger.........

Okay, if that's what you want. Seems odd that you'd do that, since you don't like when I do it, but, hey, go ahead...

The beauty of it all is you're finally going at it with an adult instead of picking on the kids......finally! You just made my night......

THIS is what it takes to "make your night"? Man, you gotta raise your standards a little.

Oh, well, at least I have my own internet stalker. That's an honor.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACL Fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

No instead I'm going to be internet bully like yourself....pointing out the flaws in others and generally spreading my pent up anger.........

Okay, if that's what you want. Seems odd that you'd do that, since you don't like when I do it, but, hey, go ahead...

The beauty of it all is you're finally going at it with an adult instead of picking on the kids......finally! You just made my night......

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACL Fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

No instead I'm going to be internet bully like yourself....pointing out the flaws in others and generally spreading my pent up anger.........

Okay, if that's what you want. Seems odd that you'd do that, since you don't like when I do it, but, hey, go ahead...

Another fight? [V][V][V]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

No instead I'm going to be internet bully like yourself....pointing out the flaws in others and generally spreading my pent up anger.........

Okay, if that's what you want. Seems odd that you'd do that, since you don't like when I do it, but, hey, go ahead...

[dharmon]

No instead I'm going to be internet bully like yourself....pointing out the flaws in others and generally spreading my pent up anger.........

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Big Girl....

Don't even waste your time with him...he likes taking shots and running....now that he has found out you are an adult, he probably won't even respond...

Don't go into business as a psychic. You've demonstrated a remarkable lack of ability in that area.

[dharmon]

Big Girl....

Don't even waste your time with him...he likes taking shots and running....now that he has found out you are an adult, he probably won't even respond...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Girl_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACL Fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

I view trespassing like speeding on the highway, it happens, just don't get caught. This comment may draw some heat form some members, but this is my opinion, and I'll stand by it. This whole thread has been about just that, getting caught in the railroad's "speed trap". I got off with a warning, but I don't plan to change, just choose my times more wisely.

You're hurting everyone who likes to railfan when you do that. Thanks for your thoughtlessness.

And when you DO get caught, you deserve to be arrested and prosecuted. Then you can explain to your children, whom you're teaching to break the law when they don't like it, why Daddy's getting handcuffed and placed in the back seat of a police car.

Also, the wife will love it.

ACL-I typed and erased alot stuff while I thought of how to answer this post. I don't need to defend Big_Boy he can do that himself. I just want to say that you have no idea what he is like and what he teaches his kids. You seem to have a lot of hostility in your posts that do not need to be directed at him.

Anyone who knowingly breaks the law and takes his children with him while doing so has a problem. Period. He may be a great guy, but teaching children that they don't have to respect the law if they don't feel like it leads to trouble later. If you don't care about that, that's your problem--but when kids who were taught to act this way start acting this way--trespassing,f or example, they become everyone's problem.

The railroads and government are already becoming hostile toward everyday railfans as it is--when people like this claim they're going to continue their illegal activities (as play it off as some kind of game) are only serving to make things tougher on the rest of us law-abiding railfans.

So, yes, the hostility certainly does need to be directed at him. he is, as they say, part of the problem.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACL Fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

I view trespassing like speeding on the highway, it happens, just don't get caught. This comment may draw some heat form some members, but this is my opinion, and I'll stand by it. This whole thread has been about just that, getting caught in the railroad's "speed trap". I got off with a warning, but I don't plan to change, just choose my times more wisely.

You're hurting everyone who likes to railfan when you do that. Thanks for your thoughtlessness.

And when you DO get caught, you deserve to be arrested and prosecuted. Then you can explain to your children, whom you're teaching to break the law when they don't like it, why Daddy's getting handcuffed and placed in the back seat of a police car.

Also, the wife will love it.

ACL-I typed and erased alot stuff while I thought of how to answer this post. I don't need to defend Big_Boy he can do that himself. I just want to say that you have no idea what he is like and what he teaches his kids. You seem to have a lot of hostility in your posts that do not need to be directed at him.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACL Fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

Why would be asked to leave? Isn't railfanning legal? I hope so.

He was on RR property. It's like someone going in your backyard without permission. On KCS Railfanning IS ILLEGAL..[V]

Bingo.

I guess we do sometimes agree!

I read that in Trains.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

Why would be asked to leave? Isn't railfanning legal? I hope so.

He was on RR property. It's like someone going in your backyard without permission. On KCS Railfanning IS ILLEGAL..[V]

Bingo.

I guess we do sometimes agree!