ShadowNix wrote: Yeah, Magnus, but for your flat tax you get things that actually work...For example, great public transit (TRAINS EVEN!!!), nationalized healthcare (I know there are those that say it hasn't worked in Sweden, but I digress...again....), a working social security system (Notional Defined Contribution), must I go on? Here in the US here's what we get:Ailing transport systems (highways, rails.... BROKEN and require EXTRA taxes tolls or referrendums in most states to pay for...)Medical System, that while the best in the world, is somewhat BROKEN as well!Broken Social Security System that will likely NOT exist when I retire, despite my likely having paid over $300,000 into it by the time I retire!This being said, I am a huge patriot and don't mean to be negative....we have a great country...just lots of work to do in the near and coming future!Brian
Yeah, Magnus, but for your flat tax you get things that actually work...
For example, great public transit (TRAINS EVEN!!!), nationalized healthcare (I know there are those that say it hasn't worked in Sweden, but I digress...again....), a working social security system (Notional Defined Contribution), must I go on? Here in the US here's what we get:
Ailing transport systems (highways, rails.... BROKEN and require EXTRA taxes tolls or referrendums in most states to pay for...)
Medical System, that while the best in the world, is somewhat BROKEN as well!
Broken Social Security System that will likely NOT exist when I retire, despite my likely having paid over $300,000 into it by the time I retire!
This being said, I am a huge patriot and don't mean to be negative....we have a great country...just lots of work to do in the near and coming future!
Brian
We do not have flat tax. We just have a very high starting tax rate and then it quickly gets real ugly!
About health care. We have a lot of problems with it. We have to wait along time to get aid and things are not as rosy as movies as "sicko" portrays it. The roads where I live is scandalous with huge potholes on the main roads in my area. Our public transit system is OK in some parts of the country. Where I live, we got something like four buses a day.
So for me atleast I can not see the benefits. Sure, their is a general welfare and the average Swede have a decent life. The poorest swede does OK to, but the average swede is way behind the average American.
But maybe we are getting to of topic. I don't want to have this discussion locked so I'm walking away from it now.
Magnus
ShadowNix wrote: I would APPLAUD a flat tax... it evens the playing field, in my humble opinion. Having a tax rate above 33% in some brackets is crazy for us middle to middle upper class. I mean, 39.6% of say 10 million is nothing for those people, but 39.6% of about $300k is NUTS (as far as financial true buying power impact....)... just my humble opinion, but there it is! Not a rant or whine, just a discourse....Brian
I would APPLAUD a flat tax... it evens the playing field, in my humble opinion. Having a tax rate above 33% in some brackets is crazy for us middle to middle upper class. I mean, 39.6% of say 10 million is nothing for those people, but 39.6% of about $300k is NUTS (as far as financial true buying power impact....)... just my humble opinion, but there it is! Not a rant or whine, just a discourse....
Don't move to Sweden! The minimum tax where I live is 34%. That is where it starts, VAT is 25% on most regular items. Gas and alcohol have an even higher tax. My father pays a lot more then 50% tax. About ten years ago when I was still young when I worked a lot of overtime my tax was 54% and I made in those days about 1200$ in my basic monthly salary.
I'm all for flat tax!
Phoebe,
You are SOOO right about taxes being used to "buy" votes and loopholes.... think about every major political battle/election....taxes (either increasing or decreasing) are always used to get special interest groups.... imagine saying, well, I think I will increase taxes to, well, everyone by going from 19 to 21 %!!! LOL.... of course, you could be REALLY popular to say the opposite, but it would cause a HUGE decrease in revenue... but I digress... good points, Phoebe.
While a flat tax is a good idea, you will never see it.
Reason one: Congress has never written a law that did not contain an exception. As soon as you start making exceptions it is no longer a flat tax.
Reason two: The reason the tax laws are so convoluted that even the IRS doesn't really know how much you owe is that the tax laws are used to control behavior more than they are used to raise revenue.
Taxes on things to discourage their use. Tax breaks on things to ecourage their use. Tax "stimulus checks" used to buy votes. Etc.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Hoople wrote:Seeing as I'm 13 I won't be getting a check...
Seeing as I'm 13 I won't be getting a check...
You mean we don't get them? I thought we got them, just less..... Oh well.
IRONROOSTER wrote: Why is some unearned income like capital gains taxed at a lower rate than earned income?Paul
Why is some unearned income like capital gains taxed at a lower rate than earned income?
Paul
Why are there taxes on imaginary gains caused by inflation such as when (1) paying taxes on the 3% interest earned on a bank account when the purchasing power of the beginning balance decreased by 4% and (2) paying taxes on a long-term investment that might have increased in nominal value by 100% when the purchasing power of the investment may have decreased 50%? If one holds assets for an extended time, the actual tax rate on capital gains are very high (up to and exceeding 100%), and can result in taxes for economic losses. If one thinks this is OK, then why wouldn't one be against the big tax break home owners get because they get an exemption for the increase in their homes' appreciation? And why do the government's tax revenues increase when the capital gains tax is reduced, and decrease when the tax rate is increased? Jack Kemp has been correct for decades: financial investments should be indexed for inflation.
Mark
Darnit, I could use that new BLI GS-4....
ShadowNix wrote: gear-jammer wrote: We need to remember that this stimulus check is not money from the government. It is money that we have overpaid in taxes. It is great to hear about everyones new train wish lists. I made mine last month so I will be caught up for a while.SueSue, I have to agree with another poster about the rebate's coming from money the government borrowed from China. Wait till next year when our taxes definitely rise to pay just a part of the interest on our national debt. Mine is going in the savings account to save for the "certain" rise for heating bills next winter. Jim Let's clarify...money that the MIDDLE class have overpaid in taxes... if you are above or below a certain amount...NOTHING! I pay more than my fair share of taxes and I get BUTTKISS back! GRR...(not at you, but at the FEDS!!!)...oh well.... Brian
gear-jammer wrote: We need to remember that this stimulus check is not money from the government. It is money that we have overpaid in taxes. It is great to hear about everyones new train wish lists. I made mine last month so I will be caught up for a while.Sue
We need to remember that this stimulus check is not money from the government. It is money that we have overpaid in taxes.
It is great to hear about everyones new train wish lists. I made mine last month so I will be caught up for a while.
Sue
Sue, I have to agree with another poster about the rebate's coming from money the government borrowed from China. Wait till next year when our taxes definitely rise to pay just a part of the interest on our national debt. Mine is going in the savings account to save for the "certain" rise for heating bills next winter. Jim
Let's clarify...money that the MIDDLE class have overpaid in taxes... if you are above or below a certain amount...NOTHING! I pay more than my fair share of taxes and I get BUTTKISS back! GRR...(not at you, but at the FEDS!!!)...oh well....
First we all pay a flat tax on wages, called FICA. Except that the upper end is capped (uncapping it would "solve" the so-called social security "crisis"). Adding an additional flat tax in the range of 20% would be a heavy burden on the lower middle class and poor who are already struggling with the increasing prices. For them the sales tax is pretty close to a flat tax anyway. The real problem with the tax system is the loop holes and goofy breaks that the mostly rich enjoy. For example: Why is some unearned income like capital gains taxed at a lower rate than earned income?
Anyway mine goes to pay down my personal debt, even as it increases our collective debt.
Enjoy
colvinbackshop wrote: OTOH, you folk that are complaining about the taxes you have to pay: OK than....Lets do a flat tax! So that EVERYBODY pays their fair share. And I do mean flat and flat for EVERYBODY!! It would save me a bunch, because I have nothing to write off. I can't even find any "loop-holes" that are in my favor! I just PAY!
OTOH, you folk that are complaining about the taxes you have to pay: OK than....Lets do a flat tax! So that EVERYBODY pays their fair share. And I do mean flat and flat for EVERYBODY!! It would save me a bunch, because I have nothing to write off. I can't even find any "loop-holes" that are in my favor! I just PAY!
I have a five-digit income and pay a flat tax because of the Alternative Minimum Tax. The reasons why there is a heavy burden on the honest, "middle class" (as well as the wealthy) are (1) about half of the on-the-table income earners pay little or no federal income tax and (2) there are tens of millions working "off the books" (tax cheats). I say, double the IRS and gain at least a ten/twenty-fold rate of return in tax revenues. My biggest expense is supporting my various governments: more than I spend in total on food, shelter, clothing, and transportation. Fortunately, I am able to cater to my distractions and my children's college educations (but not as much as I'd like) because I am frugal, particularly regarding housing (spending about half the average for my area).
Dan
Sue, I'm not so sure we've over-paid, seeing that we are soooo far in debit. It's more a poor planning, way poor spending isue and I sure wish it was money spent on ANYTHING worthwhile! It's still our money even if we (our current adminastration) can't manage it.
I agree that this whole stimulus package "BS" from our buddy "W" is total bunk! But we did appoint the village idiot our leader, so I guess we're stuck with him for a bit longer! Maybe the next leader will have a better handle on day to day life on, our space-ship, earth.
As for the monies coming our way...Let's see: We can have the gov. borrow it from China, so we can buy our heating oil, gas for the car, pay property taxes or buy goods that come from China in the first place! This all makes sooooo much sense!
You guys complaining that you don't qualify for the "package" because you made too much need to get off the pity pot! Can't remember who wrote it, but My God...I would love to have to pay $38K in taxes (not that I agree with where it is spent once the gov. has it) seeing how that's about $20K more than I make per year! And I bust my "A.." for that!
It hasn't gotten there quite yet....But I worry about what will get paid for first. The fuel, electric, food, doctor, prescriptions.....
And, I am thinking you all have noticed too, that the price of anything isn't going down! I have to wonder how long it will be before I won't be able to afford to go to work....Think about that for a bit. I'm truly worried!
In a nutshell, my stimulus rebate will most likely line the pockets of the "oil guys" (the elite few speculators that are now controlling the price of crude) for either gas for the car or to pay the heating bill.
Sorry to get up on the soap box...But this whole deal stinks to high heaven!
I'm not getting bupkis! BUPKIS!!!!
"Being misunderstood is the fate of all true geniuses"
EXPERIMENTATION TO BRING INNOVATION
http://community.webshots.com/album/288541251nntnEK?start=588
Anything is possible if you do not know what you are talking about.
If you go to the IRS.gov wesite, they have a list for when you may expect a deposit or check. The formula goes by the last 2 digits of the SS#. The first week will be to about 800,000 per day & 5 Million on Friday!
If you filed electronically, they paid the refund in about 10 business days.
SilverSpike wrote:After the dust settles from the check we sent on April 15th we will net $60.00...that might pay for dinner and a movie if were lucky...oh...and a 1/4 tank a gas to get there...
And it's comming sooner than expected!!
"WASHINGTON - President Bush said tax rebates will start going out Monday, earlier than previously announced, and should help Americans cope with rising gasoline and food prices, as well as aid a slumping economy...
Those first rebates will be directly deposited into people's bank accounts. The Internal Revenue Service had been saying direct deposits wouldn't start until next Friday. Bush said paper checks would begin going out on May 9, a week earlier than previously announced."
WOOT!! day after tomorrow!!
markpierce wrote: I pay too much in taxes to get any of the $600.Mark
I pay too much in taxes to get any of the $600.
Mark--$600?
You mean some people are actually getting back $600? Holy Cow, I'm getting back 3 NWSL replacement motors and a PSC 'oversize' Elesco bundle! The Elesco pump is coming out of my own pocket.
Wow--
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Phoebevet: Not bad. How about these:
Under your car (again):
Axel
Up a tree:
Russel
Water skiing:
Skip
On your front porch:
Matt
In the ditch:
Phil
In your garden:
Gord
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
cwclark wrote:I got a letter from good ol' Uncle Sam stating that: i make too much money and won't be recieving a check this year. You would think after giving them $38,000 for taxes this year, I could have gotten a little bit of change back. I would tell you what I really think of the IRS but they would have to delete my post....chuck
Ditto here, bud as I noted above.... but heck, if you think it is bad now, wait until the democrats are in office and us "evil" upper-middle classer's will be hemorrhaging money to pay taxes.... but I digress....
The management of the Cedar Branch & Western is planning on using the money for investment real estate taxes, property acquisition, infrastructure upgrades, and sponsoring a Railroad Associate Appreciation Day.
Translated, that means I'm paying the real estate tax on my rental house, adding benchwork, picking up a couple of decoders, and taking my wife out to eat at her favorite restaurant.
The Cedar Branch & Western--The Hillbilly Line!
You only get a rebate if you file, so most retirees will get bupkiss! I had a windfall last year--just in time to replace my computer system, which had died a horrible death, so I had to file. The AARP volunteer at the Senior Center, who did the whole thing for me online, told me I'd get $600, but I've since found I'll get half that. I do, however, get the full amount of our lovely Minnesota Renters Rebate, of which I thought my windfall would take a large bite, so I'll still be able to replace my 27" diagonal analog TV set with a 27" horizontal Hi-Def job--which is current running about 500 bucks from various sources.
That's another little Gov't Bundle of Joy: force everyone to either buy a new digital TV, or get a converter box--which doesn't work in our apartment building anyway!--for $13-$30 over the $40 card coupon the Gov't sends out. I wonder if this will be the stimulus for the Poor People's Revolution that's been fermenting (formenting?) for years?
I'm lucky in a way, though: I've laid in enough scratchbuilding supplies to build quite a few O scale (the ol' eyes refused to let me stay in HO!) old-time cars and a dozen or so steam locos in my pantry closet workshop, which I equipped with almost everything to make modeling easy in my Senior Years. (Guys and gals, there's always a way to work on model RR equipment, no matter how tiny your abode; some guys even work out of a suitcase they store under the bed!)
Dean Hammons
(Dean-58)
Duluth, MN
loathar wrote:What rebate?? I'm too low income to qualify for this one. Ain't that a kick! A person that REALLY needs it doesn't qualify!
Ditto! I didn't come close to getting this stimulus package! I am going to get back $17 in federal refund
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot Visit my blog! http://becomingawarriorpoet.blogspot.com