You make a good point, Craig, but if a person only has so much time in a 24 hour period, and they are largely consumed with exposure of self on a communication device (the new society), something else has to give. Studies are still required by law in most jurisdictions, and a body will demand to eat and to defecate...those things will not change, I agree...but the market for "free time" and "free money" is changing. Hobbies may still commmand some attention and money, but it won't be the market that the hand-helds of this kind can command.
-Crandell
Just remember:
The more things change; the more they stay they same.
Radio didn't go away after television appeared. Nor did movie theatres even after TV, VCRs, DVDs and pirated movie downloads!
Computers are cool and you can do all kind of things with them.
But it's nothing like making something with your own two hands.
The creative impulse that drives us to build model railroads (or tanks or airplanes) or paint pictures or do woodworking or knitting or whatever is not going to be erased in humankind just because we have PDAs now.
Companies that don't keep up with the times go out of business. But that doesn't mean that the business itself goes away.
Craig
DMW
jecorbett wrote: What you just posted hardly qualifies as verifiable data. These are your observations and opinions. You are perfectly entitled to hold these opinions and express them on this forum but then you chastise others when they state their observations and opinions without facts to back them up. There are no verifiable facts or data in your post. Stating that something is self evident does not make it so. You are playing by a double standard. If you are going to demand that others present what you call verifiable facts when stating their positions, you should demand no less of yourself.
What you just posted hardly qualifies as verifiable data. These are your observations and opinions. You are perfectly entitled to hold these opinions and express them on this forum but then you chastise others when they state their observations and opinions without facts to back them up. There are no verifiable facts or data in your post. Stating that something is self evident does not make it so. You are playing by a double standard. If you are going to demand that others present what you call verifiable facts when stating their positions, you should demand no less of yourself.
Not verifiable facts...you can't be serious.
Are not hobbyshops in business to supply the needs of those with hobbies? Do not hobbies include such items as model cars kits, coin collecting albums, Pine Derby cars, RC cars and a host of other similar items? Have not young people always been the traget consumers for the majority of these products? Is it necessary that I cite the stock of several LHS to prove that they are in business for this purpose?
Regarding the widely recognized aspects of human nature, is it truly called for to cite texts on human psychology to affirm that for tens of thousands of years man has been a creature whose world revolves around curiosity, the noticing of motion, bright colors and sounds? By virtue of that fact, can there be a better salesman, or a more logical choice, for garnering the attention of customers than a colorful, moving, chugging-tooting-clanging train display in the LHS? J.L.Cowen knew this over 100 years ago and made tens of millions from Lionel via it. Need I say more?
Now look at any poll, hobby survey, or compilation of author bio's from MR, addressing a person's initial contact with model trains. Examples that have appeared here and others are to be found on various forums. I'd think most of us had seen some and I can certainly list examples if need be. They generally indicate around 3/4 of all adult model railroaders point to having had electric trains of some sort as a child at Christmas, had a good friend who had them, or perhaps a relative involved in model trains at some stage in their early years. The majority of the remainder often recall having their interest spurred by seeing holiday train displays in stores and shops as kids. Personally, I have never heard of anyone walking into this hobby cold. Exposure is the key from which any personal interest in model trains springs.
All the above are self evident to almost anyone.
So how then does the Internet approach, equal, or trump, any of these for exposing the general public to model trains today, or in the future?
CNJ831
If we are talking about getting kids into the hobby the Internet is the way to do it. The LHS is not. The LHS that I've been to have not much on display and not very good layouts to show of their stuff. But that is irrelevant.
I'm educating my self to become a teacher for 15-19 years old kids and also university students. These "kids" spend a lot of time searching the net for any info they want. They are accustomed to searching for the info online rather then sit on a bus or a train for an hour to get to there LHS(which they do not know exist), they want that info available ring now and then. This is how they do most things in school and in their private life, atleast among the student that I've had the privilege of teaching.
If anything, for this hobby to grow or remain then Internet presence have to grow! Not shrink back to some obscure LHS. I was shocked with how bad most online shops are in this hobby when I started 2006. They where many years behind and I still think that they are. There is a massive lack of information and help for the newcomers and it is extremely hard to know what to get until you learn the basics and then some. So better websites for the train hobby would be a priority. I have plenty of friends that play a game called Warhammer, a war game with miniatures that uses a lot of things in common with the MR hobby. Despite this large amount of kids(ages 10-25 is common) they almost never buy MR stuff because they can not find it easily on the web. These are people who wants to buy trees, paints, landscaping materials and buildings in a scale that is roughly 1/70(I do mean roughly). This is a group of people with a shared intrest that should present an excellent recruitment pool but uses the Internet as a tool and thus misses a lot of the good stuff.
All of them build or atleast use a lot of terrain, still, almost no one knows of Woodland Scenics! That should say some.
More Internet everyone, it's the future!
Magnus
selector wrote: I'll throw in my short .On CBC radio the other day there was talk about the impact of personal communications devices and how the digital age is, and I quote two terms now, "digitally rewiring the brains of our youth" so that they live in a world of "partial attention". The buzz around multi-tasking has, according to this expert, led to a generation that pays passing attention to their cell-pod, to their Game Boy, to their text-messaging, etc....all concurrently. There is no room for intrusions for all but the most basic of needs. That means when it comes to exchanging value for value, our world economy is changing from what we understand. What they'll do for value so that they can exchange for value is not what you and I hold dear, and rapidly becoming even more separated from our familiar market exposure.Kids can't walk into an LHS if they don't accept that it has anything to offer them. Their partial attention lives flit from process to process, almost always associated with the media, so that they can get information.My bet is on virtual living and the associated infrastructure and software. Having to construct a useful track plan is as intriguing and promising as a cold cup of coffee to those who follow us, now a full generation removed.The internet is the best hope for marketing. These briefly interested kids will want the latest i-pod for all their manufacturer promises in its new way of marketing. Stumbling off the street into an LHS will just be a convenience to get out of the rain.-Crandell
I'll throw in my short .
On CBC radio the other day there was talk about the impact of personal communications devices and how the digital age is, and I quote two terms now, "digitally rewiring the brains of our youth" so that they live in a world of "partial attention". The buzz around multi-tasking has, according to this expert, led to a generation that pays passing attention to their cell-pod, to their Game Boy, to their text-messaging, etc....all concurrently. There is no room for intrusions for all but the most basic of needs. That means when it comes to exchanging value for value, our world economy is changing from what we understand. What they'll do for value so that they can exchange for value is not what you and I hold dear, and rapidly becoming even more separated from our familiar market exposure.
Kids can't walk into an LHS if they don't accept that it has anything to offer them. Their partial attention lives flit from process to process, almost always associated with the media, so that they can get information.
My bet is on virtual living and the associated infrastructure and software. Having to construct a useful track plan is as intriguing and promising as a cold cup of coffee to those who follow us, now a full generation removed.
The internet is the best hope for marketing. These briefly interested kids will want the latest i-pod for all their manufacturer promises in its new way of marketing. Stumbling off the street into an LHS will just be a convenience to get out of the rain.
It would not suprise me one bit if virtual model railroading takes over the hobby. It has been possible for some time now to devise a track plan on a PC and then actually run trains over the layout in 3-D mode. Up until now, there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in that type of railroading because the graphics I have seen are fairly primitive. I can see that all changing as hardware gets more powerful and software gets more sophisticated. A complete layout with track, trains, structures and scenery might be just a click away. We may someday see O, S, HO, and N scale replaced by e-scale. I have no doubt it is coming. The only question is whether the old way of building a model railroad sticks around.
CNJ831 wrote: IRONROOSTER wrote: Reading this thread I am struck by how old fashion we as a group are. Joe's on the right track. But not only will people learn about trains on the 'net, but about the hobby of model railroading as well. The LHS is no longer the gateway into the hobby. The young people of today grew up on the internet and that's where they turn to for information. Sites like this one have have lots of information about the hobby - way more than your local hobby shop ever did. And there are lots of sites out there. Paul, what evidence can you point to that supports your views? Exactly why would anyone without any previously existing interest in model railroading come to this, or any similar site, in the first place? What would be the stimulus to do so and from what would such an interest in model trains arise? You are assuming prior interest/exposure to the hobby by the individual, yet in modern-day America virtually the last existing example of such exposure have been the hobbyshops and they are vanishing. When broad public interest in model trains was indeed abroad in the land, between WWII and the 60's, real trains were a basic part of everyday life, hobbyshops abounded, hardware and department stores sold Lionel and sometimes Flyer year-round and at Christmastime had crowd-drawing window displays of same. Concurrently, both Lionel and Flyer also sponsored weekly TV train shows aimed at pre-teens and their dads (not pre-K kids). Nearly anywhere one turned, they saw evidence of the hobby.Fast forward to today and where is the quivalent exposure coming from that introduces the general public to model railroading? In Thomas? Please! Today our hobby has virtually no real public exposure, with even the train shows largely based on preaching to the chior. Now we are loosing the hobbyshops which served as the main outlet for our hobby's magazines and this drops public exposure to virtually zero. While of benefit to those already in the hobby, I'm afraid that the Internet serves very poorly, if at all, as a recruiting tool for model railroading among those who have no previous familiarity/exposure with it. If it were otherwise, the hobby's manufacturers would never have expended the considerable funds they have to initiate and continue their desperate WGH campaign. The hobby is competition with all the other leisure time activities available, and there are a lot more than there were in the 50's. So as a percentage of the population, the hobby declines; but in overall numbers it holds its own. Because it offers a unique experience it wll continue to do well.How can the overall number of hobbyists possibly remain more-or-less static when the majority of hobbyists today are past middle age and the number of younger folks entering the hobby dwindlingly small? Yes, model railroading may be a unique experience and an enjoyable pastime but interest in it is not inborn in folks. Without any source of initial exposure to the hobby, a continuation of the status quo is, I'm afraid, quite impossible.CNJ831
IRONROOSTER wrote: Reading this thread I am struck by how old fashion we as a group are. Joe's on the right track. But not only will people learn about trains on the 'net, but about the hobby of model railroading as well. The LHS is no longer the gateway into the hobby. The young people of today grew up on the internet and that's where they turn to for information. Sites like this one have have lots of information about the hobby - way more than your local hobby shop ever did. And there are lots of sites out there.
Reading this thread I am struck by how old fashion we as a group are. Joe's on the right track. But not only will people learn about trains on the 'net, but about the hobby of model railroading as well. The LHS is no longer the gateway into the hobby. The young people of today grew up on the internet and that's where they turn to for information. Sites like this one have have lots of information about the hobby - way more than your local hobby shop ever did. And there are lots of sites out there.
Paul, what evidence can you point to that supports your views? Exactly why would anyone without any previously existing interest in model railroading come to this, or any similar site, in the first place? What would be the stimulus to do so and from what would such an interest in model trains arise? You are assuming prior interest/exposure to the hobby by the individual, yet in modern-day America virtually the last existing example of such exposure have been the hobbyshops and they are vanishing. When broad public interest in model trains was indeed abroad in the land, between WWII and the 60's, real trains were a basic part of everyday life, hobbyshops abounded, hardware and department stores sold Lionel and sometimes Flyer year-round and at Christmastime had crowd-drawing window displays of same. Concurrently, both Lionel and Flyer also sponsored weekly TV train shows aimed at pre-teens and their dads (not pre-K kids). Nearly anywhere one turned, they saw evidence of the hobby.
Fast forward to today and where is the quivalent exposure coming from that introduces the general public to model railroading? In Thomas? Please! Today our hobby has virtually no real public exposure, with even the train shows largely based on preaching to the chior. Now we are loosing the hobbyshops which served as the main outlet for our hobby's magazines and this drops public exposure to virtually zero. While of benefit to those already in the hobby, I'm afraid that the Internet serves very poorly, if at all, as a recruiting tool for model railroading among those who have no previous familiarity/exposure with it. If it were otherwise, the hobby's manufacturers would never have expended the considerable funds they have to initiate and continue their desperate WGH campaign.
The hobby is competition with all the other leisure time activities available, and there are a lot more than there were in the 50's. So as a percentage of the population, the hobby declines; but in overall numbers it holds its own. Because it offers a unique experience it wll continue to do well.
How can the overall number of hobbyists possibly remain more-or-less static when the majority of hobbyists today are past middle age and the number of younger folks entering the hobby dwindlingly small? Yes, model railroading may be a unique experience and an enjoyable pastime but interest in it is not inborn in folks. Without any source of initial exposure to the hobby, a continuation of the status quo is, I'm afraid, quite impossible.
First, you have offered no evidence for your views that the hobby shop is the only way people get introduced to the hobby. Or even what percentage of people who do go to a hobby shop for other purchases become model railroaders.
Go to a site like you tube and type in model railroad and just scroll down the 13000 model railroad videos and look at the numbers of views - many are in the tens of thousands, some are over a hundred thousand. Type in model railroad or trains into Google and see the huge number of sites. Young people today are not bounded by the old ways they explore the net instead of the shopping centers. (And here's a little secret - some of the old folks do this too )
I have seen no evidence that the number of hobbyists have declined. There is old evidence that the average age of model railroad hobbyists who read Model Railroader has increased. While you could argue that MR once covered the hobbyists there is no evidence that now that's the case. In fact given the declines of print media in general, it's most likely that many younger hobbyists don't buy MR. In any event again there is no demonstrated correlation.
As more people live to retirement how many of them are picking up hobbies in their retirement such as model railroading?
In fact the only real evidence presented to support a decline is that the number of hobby shops has declined and the number of magazine sales has declined. But no one has shown a correlation between number of hobby shops and number of hobbyists. Or the number of magazine sales and the number of hobbyists. Much less what that correlation is. Most likely, these merely reflect the decline in small businesses and print media which is happening even as the population increases.
When looking at the increasing range of products available today in 6 scales (Z, N, HO, S, O, and G) the normal assumption would be that the hobby is growing. No one has shown any evidence to the contrary.
But I do miss the old hobby shops as one by one they have been disappearing from Northern Virginia for many years now.
Enjoy
Paul
CNJ831 wrote: jecorbett wrote: You are quick to admonish others for not offering "verifiable facts" to support their points of view, yet you offer none yourself for your argument that the LHS offers inspiration and primary stimulus for new modelers that the internet cannot. Just why should we expect that prospective recruits to this hobby would be more likely to drop into a LHS than they would be to visit a model railroading related web site. I wouldn't expect a youngster to do either unless something had already triggered some interest in model railroading, which could come in any number of ways such as seeing another's layout or finding a stash of old model trains in an attic or garage sale. Once a kid gets that initial spark, today's kids are just as inclined to go googling for more information about the hobby as they would be to make a trip to an LHS. You have provided no facts for your assertion that the LHS is the primary source for exposing young people to our hobby. All you have done is countered one unverified argument with another unverified argument. Not at all. It is perfectly self evident that younger people will frequent a LHS (if one is available) for innumerable reasons: the purchase of plastic vehicle model kits, kites, school project supplies, Pine Car models for Scouting, et al. But at the same time it places them in an enviroment where model trains are distinctly evident. When in such a shop, one's natural instinct is to spend some time looking around at items which might otherwise be outside one's current interests. It is the nature of humankind to be curious and attracted by action, bright colors and sound (thus the enormous popularity of video games today). In a shop that includes perhaps an operating layout(s) with a sound system, display cabinets containing rows of colorful locomotives, and racks of magazines with strikingly beautiful images of model railroads, it is easy to grab the viewer's attention in that direction (in a hobby shop, model trains are likely to be the only major product actually in motion). Exposure can lead to sparking an interest in a new area and for model railroading exposure is the one and only key to generating any new interest in this hobby, at least in any quantity. Such interest simply does not come out of the blue. Conversely, please tell us what possible reason can you offer for individuals interested in kites, coin collecting, or the Pine Car Derby, to flock to a model railroad related website and thereby be exposed for the very first time to our hobby? Put bluntly, there is none whatever. And that's where the Internet fails miserably as a recruiter.CNJ831
jecorbett wrote: You are quick to admonish others for not offering "verifiable facts" to support their points of view, yet you offer none yourself for your argument that the LHS offers inspiration and primary stimulus for new modelers that the internet cannot. Just why should we expect that prospective recruits to this hobby would be more likely to drop into a LHS than they would be to visit a model railroading related web site. I wouldn't expect a youngster to do either unless something had already triggered some interest in model railroading, which could come in any number of ways such as seeing another's layout or finding a stash of old model trains in an attic or garage sale. Once a kid gets that initial spark, today's kids are just as inclined to go googling for more information about the hobby as they would be to make a trip to an LHS. You have provided no facts for your assertion that the LHS is the primary source for exposing young people to our hobby. All you have done is countered one unverified argument with another unverified argument.
You are quick to admonish others for not offering "verifiable facts" to support their points of view, yet you offer none yourself for your argument that the LHS offers inspiration and primary stimulus for new modelers that the internet cannot. Just why should we expect that prospective recruits to this hobby would be more likely to drop into a LHS than they would be to visit a model railroading related web site. I wouldn't expect a youngster to do either unless something had already triggered some interest in model railroading, which could come in any number of ways such as seeing another's layout or finding a stash of old model trains in an attic or garage sale. Once a kid gets that initial spark, today's kids are just as inclined to go googling for more information about the hobby as they would be to make a trip to an LHS. You have provided no facts for your assertion that the LHS is the primary source for exposing young people to our hobby. All you have done is countered one unverified argument with another unverified argument.
Not at all. It is perfectly self evident that younger people will frequent a LHS (if one is available) for innumerable reasons: the purchase of plastic vehicle model kits, kites, school project supplies, Pine Car models for Scouting, et al. But at the same time it places them in an enviroment where model trains are distinctly evident.
When in such a shop, one's natural instinct is to spend some time looking around at items which might otherwise be outside one's current interests. It is the nature of humankind to be curious and attracted by action, bright colors and sound (thus the enormous popularity of video games today). In a shop that includes perhaps an operating layout(s) with a sound system, display cabinets containing rows of colorful locomotives, and racks of magazines with strikingly beautiful images of model railroads, it is easy to grab the viewer's attention in that direction (in a hobby shop, model trains are likely to be the only major product actually in motion). Exposure can lead to sparking an interest in a new area and for model railroading exposure is the one and only key to generating any new interest in this hobby, at least in any quantity. Such interest simply does not come out of the blue.
Conversely, please tell us what possible reason can you offer for individuals interested in kites, coin collecting, or the Pine Car Derby, to flock to a model railroad related website and thereby be exposed for the very first time to our hobby? Put bluntly, there is none whatever. And that's where the Internet fails miserably as a recruiter.
CNJ831,Most kids I know frequent the big box stores for their school needs or Hobby Lobby.Few (if any) even knows about the 4 hobby shops(2 train/2 other) in Mansfield.
Ask 'em about Thomas/Shining Time Station and most has heard about or watch the show when they where"kids" and some simply roll their eyes.
On the other hand I notice during the week of the County fair many kids made several trips around the layouts and many(including girls) ask general questions about the hobby.
Is there a tie in between that Blue Tank engine and model railroading as a hobby?
I don't know.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ok , I'll tell you where I'm going. Since I live in NYC, a quick ride to TrainWorld or TrainLand is most common. There is only one other hobby shop I go to in the city, and it's not Red Cabbose -that's for sure!
I don't even order through the mail with TW or TL. And because of their stocking practices their prices are ususally the best if they have it. I only order online when I can't find it anywhere else.
CNJ831 wrote: That many suggest the disappearance of hobby shops is simply a sign of the times and does no real harm to the hobby itself, is extremely short sighted. Visiting the LHS has always been a great source of inspiration and a primary stimulus for new modelers through exposure. While many champion the Net and on-line media sources as today quickly replacing the LHS and the hardcopy publications, these work well only for those already in the hobby...they do not serve to recruit new members into the hobby.As indicated, interest in model railroading is clearly generated by exposure to trains, be they real, miniature, or electric toys. That is something that is almost totally lacking in today's society. The LHS is one of the last important existing examples of broad public exposure for our hobby. There simply is no evidence, whatever, to suggest that a one-time visit to some train show, or a pre-K child's enthusiasm for Thomas, results in any life-long interest in model railroading. I find it interesting that Joe F. has now put forth in this thread the concept that the great interest in model trains from the late 1940's through the 1960's was something of a "fad" and that it is unlikely to ever be repeated, or even approached. I would hasten to point out that this "fad" encompassed an entire generation of Americans, the Boomers, and it is the progeny of that specific era that consitutes at least 70% of hobbyists active today and making the hobby of model railroading what it is. Just what will be left of our hobby when this generation's numbers begin to seriously dwindle over the next decade and hobby participation should return fully to the "pre-fad" levels, as Joe suggests (i.e. about 25,000 hobbyists, or less)? Think prices are high now and product runs limited? You've seen only the beginning of such things so far. The same goes for the viability of the hobby magazines, if true, which would likely all morph into simply annual, or bi-annual, pretty picture "Greatest Model Railroads Of...", augmented by a great proliferation of extra cost, how-to publications. Will there always be model railroaders? Probably so. But their future numbers will likely be very small, relative to today, specifically because of the hobby's almost total lack of exposure and the likelihood of an enormously high cost in participation.Now I fully expect that the same cast of uninformed colleagues here will quickly raise their voices to refute what I've pointed out above. But, for a decided change of pace, if you have a differing point of view, how about offering your take on the situation backed by some varifiable facts, not the typical irrelavent nonsense and bovine scat? CNJ831
That many suggest the disappearance of hobby shops is simply a sign of the times and does no real harm to the hobby itself, is extremely short sighted. Visiting the LHS has always been a great source of inspiration and a primary stimulus for new modelers through exposure. While many champion the Net and on-line media sources as today quickly replacing the LHS and the hardcopy publications, these work well only for those already in the hobby...they do not serve to recruit new members into the hobby.
As indicated, interest in model railroading is clearly generated by exposure to trains, be they real, miniature, or electric toys. That is something that is almost totally lacking in today's society. The LHS is one of the last important existing examples of broad public exposure for our hobby. There simply is no evidence, whatever, to suggest that a one-time visit to some train show, or a pre-K child's enthusiasm for Thomas, results in any life-long interest in model railroading. I find it interesting that Joe F. has now put forth in this thread the concept that the great interest in model trains from the late 1940's through the 1960's was something of a "fad" and that it is unlikely to ever be repeated, or even approached. I would hasten to point out that this "fad" encompassed an entire generation of Americans, the Boomers, and it is the progeny of that specific era that consitutes at least 70% of hobbyists active today and making the hobby of model railroading what it is. Just what will be left of our hobby when this generation's numbers begin to seriously dwindle over the next decade and hobby participation should return fully to the "pre-fad" levels, as Joe suggests (i.e. about 25,000 hobbyists, or less)? Think prices are high now and product runs limited? You've seen only the beginning of such things so far. The same goes for the viability of the hobby magazines, if true, which would likely all morph into simply annual, or bi-annual, pretty picture "Greatest Model Railroads Of...", augmented by a great proliferation of extra cost, how-to publications. Will there always be model railroaders? Probably so. But their future numbers will likely be very small, relative to today, specifically because of the hobby's almost total lack of exposure and the likelihood of an enormously high cost in participation.
Now I fully expect that the same cast of uninformed colleagues here will quickly raise their voices to refute what I've pointed out above. But, for a decided change of pace, if you have a differing point of view, how about offering your take on the situation backed by some varifiable facts, not the typical irrelavent nonsense and bovine scat?
I think the main reason that hobby shops will keep on closing is the fact that almost all of them charge MSRP. Those prices are almost always 30-40% more than ''internet prices''.
Now it don't take a rocket scientist to figure how much you can save by buying online.
The only time I go to a LHS is get something small that I need now, or to look at something that I know I can buy online for a lot less.( i.e. a set of 8 Kato Nscale Bethgon Coalporters at the LHS sells for 120.00 plus tax comes to total of 128.00 plus gas to get there and back is another 10.00 - 12.00. So now I am at 140.00 for somthing I know I can buy online for about 80.00 -90.00w/shipping ............ NO BRAINER )
I usually don't make a special trip there either and I have 3 decent LHS's within a 45 minute drive.
These days it is all about the $.
I know this first hand as my income (I am a self employed carpenter in new home construction)has dropped from $125,000 a year in 2004 to $45,000 in 2007. I don't know many people that can take a hit like that and still throw away money at an overpriced LHS. Thats my take and I know that I am not alone in this way of buying trains and supplies. Sorry LHS owners thats the way it is.
N Scale Diesels......I like 'em
Again you are astute with your observations and comments............except I may have a disagreement with you on Thomas trains, better known as "Thomas the un-American tank engine.
Just five years ago, we would not have allowed Thomas trains or any other similar pre-entry level trains in our Timonium show. Young and I started this show in 1982 as a venue for serious scale model railroading in all scales sans tinplate. The show immediately became popular and we were swamped with fine dealers who sold strictly items for the intermediate and advanced modelers. Over the years things changed. With many scale modelers retiring or just dying off including many of these scale only dealers, we found that the new entries were not keeping pace with the folks leaving this hobby or attending our shows.
Then tinplate collectors started taking their choo choos from theirs shelves and actually began playing with them...........thus giving birth to what is know today as HI-RAIL. Companies like Weaver, Sunset, Pecos River, Williams, MTH, Lionel, and several others began producing wonderful scale models to run on three rail track. Hi-Rail is now today scale model railroading (to an extent), but on three rails. When we began our shows and well into the 21st, we would not have allowed any three rail into our shows. BUT..............?? How could we not allow a fellow with a beautiful Lionel UP 4-12-2 and then allow someone selling a table full of Tyco choo choos including a "Chattanooga choo choo"?
POINT of this....................In the past year we have been encouraging Thomas and other similar pre-entry trains to set up.............not that we really believe that the little tykes will become model railroaders (could be, though), but to introduce this hobby to the families who had no clue that any kind of trains existed beyond Thomas toys. Just in the past year we have seen this to be quite successful as many familes have returned...........and not just to purchase Thomas trains, but to see the great operating layouts and learn more about how this hobby can be a family thing. Here, we believe lies the future of the hobby.....families! Let's face it.........the day of the teen ager peddaling his Schwinn to Hobbyland on Main St in Hackensack on a Saturday morning to buy a train kit is now found only in American folklore.
Once this bug bites, to keep this new found interest alive, most do not want to wait for the next show to come to town.
They'll seek out and hopefully find a good hobby shop to learn more and purchase items....and to buy a current or several model railroad magazines............now found only in these shops! Here alone gives reason for the importance of hobby shop in keeping this hobby alive.
We also promise not to turn our shows into a toy event, but newbies ain't gonna begin with a PFM Crown.
Happy choo choos.
HZ
The smart retailers have a strong internet presence, and offer the same level of service to their web customers that they do for their walk in's. MB Klein and Feather River are two examples that stand out in my mind.
I'm very much a price shopper, but I'm another one of those who live "outside the bubble" and have to rely on mail-order and internet for most of my needs. There's a Hobby Town about 20 minutes from me, and since it changed ownership, it has gotten noticeably better for train supplies, but their prices are pretty much at list price, so I rely on them only for the "gotta have it now" piece of track or bottle of glue. They do a pretty brisk business in R/C, so I expect they'll be around for awhile, and I have noticed they have to re-stock the Atlas c55 N scale track pretty frequently, so someone's buying...
The locals that ignore the internet, or spend more time and energy complaining about it are doomed to fail. Hobbyists are scattered far and wide, and you simply can't rely on walk-in business anymore. And as a growing number of hobbyists discover the resources available on the net, I dare say it will become the number one source for hobby purchases in the coming years.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
There is certainly some truth to what CNJ, Howard, et al. are saying. Howard, of course, is uniquely qualified to speak on the overall health of the hobby, being a train show promoter.
I would probably be really worried about the hobby were it not for two things:
1. I'll keep at this hobby no matter what anyone else does.
2. At least for the time being, hobby manufacturers are still coming out with new releases, and so must believe that money can still be made in model railroading.
Witness Atlas. This past decade has seen an explosion of new items from Atlas in 3 scales; most of which is very close to prototype. Atlas has eclipsed MicroTrains as the flagship for N scale. Its newer cars are well engineered, ride lower (in N scale, ride height is a big issue), and are more affordable. Atlas pushed code 55 track in N and is now competing with Kato's Unitrack with its new American-style TrueTrack in N. And Atlas is releasing new N scale locomotives every few months.
I relate this story because it tells me that at least some companies in the hobby are growing because they feel the market can support that growth. Athearn and Walthers have also been coming out with many new products each year.
That tells me, an admitted layman, that the hobby itself isn't going away immediately.
Where I really agree with CNJ, Howard, etc. is that the "face" of model railroading is changing dramatically, and I would not be surprised if 20 years down the road you won't find an LHS in your town (or the next). All distribution will have ended up online (or whatever new technology supplants the Internet).
The nature of the hobby itself, i.e., what we define as model railroad craftsmanship, will also change. RTR is not a fad; it's here to stay. There will always be those of us who, out of need or desire, will occasionally roll our own, but the days of the LHS well-stocked with strip and bass wood are probably numbered, if not passed.
I wish I had the power to influence the future direction of model railroading on the large scale, but I don't. On the small scale, I do take my layout to shows (if only just to show people the NTRak isn't your only option in N scale!) and I've gotten my two sons involved in the hobby.
When my father comes to visit, three generations of us Vollmers (dad, me, and my sons) all go to the LHS as a family trip. I hope the LHS doesn't go the way of the caboose, but if it does, I don't believe it will spell the end of the hobby. It will, however, change the way in which we do things. It will certainly make the Internet, and train shows, even more critical than they already are, in promoting the hobby.
Whew...! I can't say it's all roses, but I think things will be okay at least for the short term. Let's see how the coming recession affects the hobby; less cash in America's pockets means less hobby dollars.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Went to the Zane Show (as we call it) last weekend in Timonium, and the Mrs tagged along. It's always a nice atmosphere at this event, well attended, and BTW Howard, the food vendor is fabulous . Perhaps it was the time of year, or the proximity to the YORK show, but I did notice a much smaller cadre of vendors this time (always good to see the Spicers). What we did notice was how well represented the regions modular/railroader clubs were. Fifey's-wifey commented how the majority of faces seem to be 40-something-somethings like myself. That right there should speak volumes. Model railroading should be okie-doke for at least 2-3 more decades.
Now, as to the Local Hobby Shop scene. Friendly, courteous service, good product selection, and again, a nice atmosphere are important to me. The big-daddy in our region is Klein's. Since their move from Gay St, their staff is noticeably more freindly and attentive to walk-in customers, leading to a nice "experience". There's a nice "barber-shop" feel to the train store in MtAiry. Very friendly service, and the kinda joint you'd want to hang out an hour or so a week. But for my train "fix", I drive 70 minutes to Catoctin Hobbies, where the proprietors have "nailed" it, as far as LHS are concerned. These guys should give classes on how to handle customers. (Sorry boys, it's mainly 3-rail...)
Retailing is changing. Walmart has changed everything and the small shops can't compete. Niche markets are more 'net based. Discounting is a mixed bag for niche markets - some items are, others aren't. In model railroading expect to see more online marketing and more train show dealers, fewer hobby shops.
Here's the issue i have with my "local" hobby shop: It's 50 miles away! When I go there, it's usually for one of those staples - flex track or a turnout. There's a bin for code 70 flex track, but every time I go there to buy some, he always tells me he "just sold out." Considering that it costs me $10 in gas to get there and $5 for each piece of track, I called up a mail order place and got what I needed - it arrived 3 days later. I'll feel bad if he goes out of business, but I've been there at least once every couple of months for the past 5 years and every time I've left without something I really needed, and get it by mail order.
Every time I've gone in there looking to buy track I've left empty handed. It appears to be a well stocked HO exclusive model railroad hobby store - why are they always out of track!!???
My opinion is that hobby stores have to meet their customers half way: Stock the stuff we need and we'll shop there.
There is a method of inventory control called APICS. It's what the big box stores use to keep their stocks up. In this day and age, I'm amazed that any store is ever out of anything - the technology exists to make it so that over 99% of the time you have what your customers want to buy.
I've read this and other threads about hobby stores. What they have going for them is that they can immediately provide what their customers need. The mail order places will never be able to do this, so they should exploit that capability by having what their customers need in stock. APICS is not rocket science - anyone can learn it. This is how they can compete in the 21st century.
A couple of other ideas I'd offer them are to buy some brass locos on ebay, clean em up, add 10% and sell them in their stores. There is nothing like a display case full of brass to pique customers' interest.
When they are out of stock, I'd urge them to order the item for a customer and have it shipped directly to the customer's house. Chances are they'll only break even, but they'll keep that customer.
Finally, they should be service oriented (we don't get much of that on line). Doing minor repairs for free would build traffic and loyalty. Doing a little one-on-one teaching of how to use the products would be worth a ton. Having a relationship with local custom painters would go a long way (how about a discount at the paint shop if you mention the hobby store).
There is a lot more they could do, but mine chooses not to - so I'm often shopping on line. It's not just about price, it's more about reliability.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
HOWARD:
WE're going through a phase. When State's impose their (Av.10 %) sales taxes on 'Mail Order', and shipping expenses (already 10%) are imposed ,The Mail Order 'Discount' houses will disappear, and 'Cash & Carry' stores will hold sway.
Already: (Mail Order kings) SEARS and Mon'ty Wards has given sway to Wal Mart & Target.
As long as everybody wants to make a buck (including consumers). GREED is alive and well.
GILLBERT'S in GETTYSBERG, is indeed a woderful store. I discovered it when visiting the Battlefield. They carry things one cannot find at '$ell-whatever-is-moving' Mail Order houses. I even bought Brass at Gilberts, when Tommy's Uncle ran the store.
IT'S called "SELECTION".
CNJ 831,
You seem to have a fine grasp on what is going on with hobby shops and the hobby in general. From your moniker.....CNJ 831, I'd guess that you come from the area where many fine model railroad shops once flowered...........New Jersey! (correct me if I'm wrong...Central New Jersey RR and 831 from the last class of Pacifics the CNJ ran).
Thanks for the good words, but I'm not a master model railroader.............'just got a large set of electric trains and play with them often!
Had I been put on this planet to be a retailer and could choose any field to sell in. a hobby shop would be dead last with a huge gap between it and the second to last on the list. It takes dedication.............decades back and today. Many folks get into buying a hobby shop because of the love of what they are selling, which far exceeds thier business sense and abilities. I had made the same choice in 1973 with my shop. Hell, I never even worked in a shop prior to my opening it. It was quite an experience and I had learned that I have much respect for today's hobby retailers and how they are keeping this hobby alive for so many.
To run a successful shop today, one must be able to purchase the building or open in a run down area where rents are cheap. Location is quite important as at least 70% of your clientele shoud be "walk-in". My whole opinion is based on how important venues like shops, shows, and clubs are for introducing this hobby to new folks.
Well, I don't have any facts or really any informed opinions on the subject.
I support my LHS for most purchases. For small items he doesn't carry, and for which shipping would make it not worth ordering online, I order through the LHS.
I do end up having to order online more than I'd like because I live in the South and I model the Northeast. My LHS carries gobs of Southern, SAL, ACL, CSX, NS, etc... but is real thin on PRR, Conrail, and Penn Central. I understand why he stocks what he stocks, and I don't fault him for it.
Everywhere I've been stationed (except Korea), I've established a relationship with my LHS so they know me by name.
My LHS, Model Railway PO, as the name implies has always had a strong mailorder business. They also sell online, but do maintain a brick & mortar shop. They discount almost all products by about 20%, and match Walthers sale prices - without the shipping charges!! They have a large inventory, which is one of the things that many other LHS's can't afford. Many of the online-only shops have little or no inventory, you order from them & they order from Walthers, Horizon, etc., relieving them of inventory cost. Just think about that, almost all new releases are "limited run", and there are more and more new releases than ever, and each one comes in multiple road names, or limited craftsman structure kits in the $100+ range. To inventory 1/10th of new releases would require an enormous inventory - and inventory costs big $$$. MRPO has an of-the-beaten location in an industrial park, so their rent is less than Main Street or the Mall, but still considerable compared to someone working out of their house with little or no inventory. I worked for a friend in a hobby shop for almost a year, and saw many customers come in to "see & touch" an item so they could order it on line!! We even had one jerk bring an on-line purchased loco in for us to fix FOR FREE BECAUSE WE CARRIED THAT LINE!!!
If you don't patronize your LHS for more of your purchases, you may no longer have a LHS, or it may be a 2 hr drive away!!
I agree with CNJ for the most part with one exception:
The on-line dealers definitely have overhead. Having owned both an online business and an identical brick and mortar store,I can tell you the net profit margin for both the store and the Internet operation were exactly the same. The cost of the product is lower for the consumer, but the Internet retailer is looking for increased volume and automated systems to make up the difference. This, of course, excludes smaller eBayer, but the major Internet players are faced with the same competition for your on-line dollars that used to be the domain of the shops.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
JWhite wrote: I couldn't be back into model railroading without online shopping. I live in a rural area and the nearest hobby shop that carries model railroad equipment is 65 miles away. I would love to be able to go into a shop and visit with other hobbyists and actually look at an item before I purchased it. But the demographics of this area just won't support a business like that. Jeff
I couldn't be back into model railroading without online shopping. I live in a rural area and the nearest hobby shop that carries model railroad equipment is 65 miles away. I would love to be able to go into a shop and visit with other hobbyists and actually look at an item before I purchased it. But the demographics of this area just won't support a business like that.
Jeff
There's a paradox of model railroading: those who live in areas where the real estate for a large layout is more affordable tend to live further away from the urban centers that can actually support a decent hobby shop!
I spent the first half of my life as an avid hobbyist who lived hours away from a decent hobby shop.
Howard Zane wrote: Often I see posts about local hobby shops closing for one reason or another, and this is worrisome for me as it should be for all. Todays trends towards hobby purchases have changed drastically, mostly favoring on line buying. Many fine shops have joined the 21st century and do business through their sites, but then again, many don't.
Often I see posts about local hobby shops closing for one reason or another, and this is worrisome for me as it should be for all. Todays trends towards hobby purchases have changed drastically, mostly favoring on line buying. Many fine shops have joined the 21st century and do business through their sites, but then again, many don't.
While I look in on this forum only around once a week and have thus come in late on this thread, I must say that Howard seems to be one of the few folks here close enough to the real workings of the hobby to honestly have an appreciation of the consequences of what we see happening in the commercial end of model railroading today. I'm certainly glad to see him voice his concern, Howard being something of a recognized hobby authority (master model railroader, former brass dealer, major hobby promoter and author). It is sad that so few here seem to understand the magnitude of the repercussions it presents.
Brick and mortar hobby shops are disappearing because, through a dramatic decline in their customer base/profit margin, they are rapidly becoming no longer ecconomically viable as a business enterprise. Established shops that are put up for sale, or those that go on the market because their owners wish to retire, typically don't sell and simply go out of business. When potential buyers (or their financial backers) look seriously into the way the wind is blowing for this type of business, they quickly decide to steer well clear of them.
It is fact that a strictly brick and mortar shop can not compete successfully for any length of time with solely on-line dealers/discounters, who have virtually no overhead, nor in-depth stock to maintain. Manufacturer's pricing has reached the point that few hobbyists are willing to purchase expensive items other than on-line, cutting deeply into the viability of LHS operation. Shops can not remain in business for long with just the sale of stripwood and glue. Whereas many large cities had as many as 100 hobby shops shortly after WWII (and every small community had at least one or two), such figures have dwindled to the point where good, well established, shops are becoming as scarce as hen's teeth today...and one sees extremely few new, train-only, examples opening. Those that do, generally don't last too long.
highhood63 wrote: Phoebe Vet wrote: Howard:I traveled all the way From Charlotte, NC to attend that show in Timonium last Saturday.My compliments. It's a great show. When I told people how great it was, they all told me that it used to be much bigger. I have trouble picturing that. It's pretty big now. I only spent $350 at it, but I have several business cards from vendors that I WILL be contacting in the future.I am fortunate. My local hobby shop is within walking distance of my house. (Less than a mile.)Hey Phoebe....I was under the Impression that Charlotte lost it's only MRR shop a few years back. I know the one went out of business back in 96 in 97, and the employees of that shop tried to make a go of a scale shop but that went under as well. I haven't lived in Charlotte since 98, so I have been slightly out of touch, has a new shop opened in the area?
Phoebe Vet wrote: Howard:I traveled all the way From Charlotte, NC to attend that show in Timonium last Saturday.My compliments. It's a great show. When I told people how great it was, they all told me that it used to be much bigger. I have trouble picturing that. It's pretty big now. I only spent $350 at it, but I have several business cards from vendors that I WILL be contacting in the future.I am fortunate. My local hobby shop is within walking distance of my house. (Less than a mile.)
Howard:
I traveled all the way From Charlotte, NC to attend that show in Timonium last Saturday.
My compliments. It's a great show. When I told people how great it was, they all told me that it used to be much bigger. I have trouble picturing that. It's pretty big now. I only spent $350 at it, but I have several business cards from vendors that I WILL be contacting in the future.
I am fortunate. My local hobby shop is within walking distance of my house. (Less than a mile.)
Hey Phoebe....I was under the Impression that Charlotte lost it's only MRR shop a few years back. I know the one went out of business back in 96 in 97, and the employees of that shop tried to make a go of a scale shop but that went under as well. I haven't lived in Charlotte since 98, so I have been slightly out of touch, has a new shop opened in the area?
Hobbytown has two stores here, and there is a store in Gastonia that I have not been in.
The Trains only store in the Carolina Place Mall was not there for long, but malls are too expensive an environment.
Hobbytown is not trains only, but they have a good selection of trains on hand, are great to deal with, and can order anything that Walthers carries.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I have paid anywhere from $3 to $7 to just walk in and look at a train show. All of the dealers selling new in box items, while maybe discounting a little, are still higher than you could get an item for on the internet. So I've realized that the premium you have to pay to "see and feel" an item before you buy is just not at a LHS, but also at shows. I got to wondering, if I asked my LHS owner (who sells at full retail ) if I paid him $7 every time I walked in, would he match any price (plus shipping) on the internet? Would he do it? Would many other buyers agree to this? This is not a serious question I'm looking for a debate on, but just some food for thought, when deciding to pay a little more at LHS or buy online.
Jim