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I've been Penn-Centralized!

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Posted by twhite on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 5:52 PM
 SpaceMouse wrote:

Tom,

This is only a minor hijack of a thread, but just thought I'd warn you that it looks like the Rock Ridge Branch of the SP just might be winding up the Yuba River. Kindly let me know if you see any slightly out of time phase trains running across your layout.

Please return to your regularly schedule outrage at Dave's delirium.

 

Chip--

Let's see--1880's, right?  If they suddenly appear near Sierra City, I'll just tell the passengers on the Yuba River Express that we loan the trackage out to movie trains on a regular basis, just like the Sierra Railway, LOL!Evil [}:)]  Besides, SP already has trackage rights on the Sub, so you're welcome up the canyon anytime, Chip!Big Smile [:D]

Tom

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Posted by Tjsingle on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 4:57 PM
 NittanyLion wrote:

 Dave Vollmer wrote:
I figure a few interchangeable buildings and a seperate set of autos, and I have pretty much 2 layouts in one.

Then that neat little station of yours will have to go from this:

To this:

The horror of it (or if you're a youngster like me the neutral feeling of it) 

you see that alot in old coal/steel towns in Pennsylvania, its pretty sad. Also in Johnstown PA i saw a local with 2 ex conrail SD60I's pretty sad, once road diesels reduced to NS local power :(

Tjsingle

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Posted by dmitzel on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 3:57 PM

I miss PC, for the fact that Conrail Day spelled the end of active rail in my hometown. No CR trains ever moved through town, and the abandoned rail was pulled up by '79. GTW didn't make it much farther, only lasting until '83.

Now it's just bike paths and weeds where an active junction once stood. Today, if I want to see any trains, it's 15 miles north by highway to watch NAFTA traffic on CN's Flint Sub. The irony is apparent while paralleling the old NYC grade north on State Hwy. 24 to Lapeer.

With gas prices the way they are, I don't get out railfanning like I used to during the '90s era of cheap oil. Guess walking or riding the rail trail is healthier for me anyway.

D.M. Mitzel Div. 8-NCR-NMRA Oxford, Mich. USA
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Posted by Flashwave on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 3:36 PM
 Dave Vollmer wrote:
 twhite wrote:

Dave---WHOA!!!

After picking myself up off of the floor at your post, I just hope you 'preserve' those nifty N-scale Pennsy steamers of yours and have a LOT of fan trips for those N-scale railfans on your layout. 

For myself, I couldn't be more shocked than if I had suddenly decided to model Union Pacific, LOL!Shock [:O]

TomBlush [:I]

Tom,

Don't worry!  The idea is to eventually have two seperate rosters.  The PRR right-of-way remained pretty much the same until the early 80s when track reductions and signal upgrades were done (after Conrail started making money).  That means the same layout can host two eras.

I figure a few interchangeable buildings and a seperate set of autos, and I have pretty much 2 layouts in one.

Nope, the Penny's not going away.  But I want to keep my little layout interesting.  Alternating eras every few weeks ought to do that nicely!

get out of my head. I've been thinking the same idea. Tell us how it goes

-Morgan

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Posted by V&AL on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 3:24 PM

ahh nostalgia....

 (Disclamer: I'm 25, I was born in 1983, the same year the MP and WP dissapeared under Monster Pacific forever)

 Right now I have 2 MP diesels pulling a 3 car stack train on my Fred's loco module.  I remember the "blue diesel trains" switching the GMAC auto unloading facility by my house.  (I was 3 at the time) Then the "yellow diesel trains" started showing up... I was able to put 2 and 2 together. I remember asking my dad (yes at age 3) "Did the yellow train company (UP) take over the blue train company (MP)??

 

ahhh the good ol' days.

Virginia and Alleghenny Railroad Texas and Gulf Coast Railroad (The Dixie Road) PACE: Pittsburgh Area Commuter Express Texas Express
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 3:17 PM

Tom,

This is only a minor hijack of a thread, but just thought I'd warn you that it looks like the Rock Ridge Branch of the SP just might be winding up the Yuba River. Kindly let me know if you see any slightly out of time phase trains running across your layout.

Please return to your regularly schedule outrage at Dave's delirium.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 3:16 PM
 wm3798 wrote:

You know where those LIRR FA's came from, don't you...

Ya know, they mention that in this month's Trains.  Had to buy it for the Strasburg article, of course!

Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.

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Posted by wm3798 on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 3:14 PM

You know where those LIRR FA's came from, don't you...

Mmm-hmmm... That's Right...  WM sold theirs back to GE to be converted into power cabs for the Long Island.  302 is sitting in the weeds in upstate NY right now, waiting for CP Rail and CSX to bring her home to WM Country for cosmetic restoration...

Lee 

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Posted by NittanyLion on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 3:04 PM

 Dave Vollmer wrote:
I figure a few interchangeable buildings and a seperate set of autos, and I have pretty much 2 layouts in one.

Then that neat little station of yours will have to go from this:

To this:

The horror of it (or if you're a youngster like me the neutral feeling of it) 

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Posted by twhite on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 2:55 PM

Dave--

Believe me, friend, if ANYONE understands Nostalgia, it's me!   Actually, I broke down and got a set of Rio Grande F-3's last year, which absolutely STUNNED my son when he came down over Christmas.  He just stared at them, then at me, then back to them and I said, "Hey, kiddo, I WAS there, remember?  I was sixteen when Rio Grande and Espee ran their last steamers." 

He just grinned and said, "Oh.  Actually, I didn't think you REMEMBERED diesels, Dad."

Whatever that means, LOL!

Tom

 

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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 2:39 PM
 twhite wrote:

Dave---WHOA!!!

After picking myself up off of the floor at your post, I just hope you 'preserve' those nifty N-scale Pennsy steamers of yours and have a LOT of fan trips for those N-scale railfans on your layout. 

For myself, I couldn't be more shocked than if I had suddenly decided to model Union Pacific, LOL!Shock [:O]

TomBlush [:I]

Tom,

Don't worry!  The idea is to eventually have two seperate rosters.  The PRR right-of-way remained pretty much the same until the early 80s when track reductions and signal upgrades were done (after Conrail started making money).  That means the same layout can host two eras.

I figure a few interchangeable buildings and a seperate set of autos, and I have pretty much 2 layouts in one.

Nope, the Penny's not going away.  But I want to keep my little layout interesting.  Alternating eras every few weeks ought to do that nicely!

Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.

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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 2:37 PM

...oh boy...

Guys, I wasn't really looking for permission, nor was I trying to condone the massive failures in foresight, givernment regulation, and management that led to the Penn Central disaster, nor am I saying I'm happy that Bruswick Green was replaced by Conrail Blue.

No...  My point in all this is to explore my recent nostalgia for my youth.  Recently I find myself listening occasionally to music from the late 70s/early 80s (except disco, although my wife loves disco - ack!).  I think it's because I now have children that age, and I remember what it was like for me then.  We even bought them some DVDs of that 70s PBS childrens' show The Electric Company.  Talk about retro!

So PC/Conrail and Amtrak, as well as a Long Island Rail Road running FAs (that's right, FAs!) and LIRR freight service complete with yellow and orange cabins are the trains of my youth.

Would I rather have memories of triple-headed K4s on a 4-track main?  You bet!  But I don't.

Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.

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Posted by twhite on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 2:33 PM

Dave---WHOA!!!

After picking myself up off of the floor at your post, I just hope you 'preserve' those nifty N-scale Pennsy steamers of yours and have a LOT of fan trips for those N-scale railfans on your layout. 

For myself, I couldn't be more shocked than if I had suddenly decided to model Union Pacific, LOL!Shock [:O]

TomBlush [:I]

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Posted by wm3798 on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 2:22 PM

Maybe Conrail wasn't perfect, but when you consider what they started with, it wasn't too bad.  One of the reasons the "single system plan" was adopted was because the proposed second system was supposed to include Chessie as one of the operators.  They chickened out, and decided it was better for Uncle Sam to do the heavy lifting.

In the end, Conrail made money for the government, on top of paying back every cent that was invested.  It also was the poster child for the Staggers Act, which effectively unshackled the railroads from regulation that had been in place for over 100 years.

What you have today is essentially what was talked about in the late 50's, with two systems in the northeast centered primarily around the PRR and the Central, only today it's NS and CSX that survive.  I don't know if that arrangement would have survived intact back then either, given the fact that archaic regulation, increasing competition from highways and airlines, and a collapsing post-war industrial base would have affected their fortunes either way.

Lee 

Route of the Alpha Jets  www.wmrywesternlines.net

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Posted by Tjsingle on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 2:06 PM
 Paul3 wrote:

Tjsingle,
Conrail was broken up between two different RR's.  If you want to call that a merger, go right ahead.  I'll continue to call it "cleaved" as in "cut in two."

Conrail, as a gov't take over of bankrupt northeastern RR's, was almost certainly inevitable (the other option for some RR's involved was to go the way of the NYO&W, as in totally gone).  Would it have included NYC if it had merged with the C&O?  Maybe, maybe not.  The B&M managed to avoid Conrail even tho' it was included in the discussions.

IMHO, there should have been two competing northeast "Conrails" roughly along the line of PRR vs. NYC.  Monopolies are generally bad for business (except for the monopoly), so if Conrail had some competition, we may have seen better service.  I know folks sometimes wear Conrail-colored glasses when looking at the mess that CSX is making of things today, but Conrail was not perfect.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

 

Im not trying to say conrail was prefect, it wasn't, all railroads haves ups and downs. But remeber CSX does have some pretty bad trackage in alot of places.

Tjsingle

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Posted by D&HRR on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 6:41 AM
 Packer wrote:

In this hobby, people should be allowed to do whatever they want. If he wants PC, let him have PC. Personally I don't like BNSF, but I don't dis them like it seems people do to PC. (I don't like BNSF because they put my 2 favorite RR's and Paintschemes together, and made one that looks bad to me.)

 G Paine wrote:
 Dave Vollmer wrote:

True, but again it's what I remember from my childhood.  Really, it was early Conrail by the time I have vivid memories of railroading.

This is very true. In Maine in the late 80s and early 90s, you would never see an MEC or B&M locomotive in Guilford Gray in a train show display. In fact, you probably would get tossed out of the building on your ear for trying. These days the Guilford Gray locos are common at shows, but most of the modelers are younger, and the gray is all they remember from first hand trainwatching.

 I model BN, but have only seen a few BN locos. Most of the locos I have seen were either UP, CSX, or SP. Ive seen a few ATSF though.

  I associate Guilford with the sign of an end for the D&H, B&M and MEC. Guilford did not do any good for these roads, in fact I think they ruined the D&H until NYSW ( with CSX backing ) and CP Rail stepped in. What does this have to do with PC? They eventually got better with the creation of Conrail, Guilford just made everything worse. Yes I do have Guilford motive power but, I really like their paint scheme, so if you like it, run it, no matter how bad the prototype was.

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Posted by chutton01 on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 11:31 PM

 Paul3 wrote:
IMHO, there should have been two competing northeast "Conrails" roughly along the line of PRR vs. NYC.  Monopolies are generally bad for business (except for the monopoly), so if Conrail had some competition, we may have seen better service

Could have happened, there was a concept for two competing North East railroads: MARC-EL (Erie Lackwanna + several CNJ & Reading lines) and (a smaller) ConRail - however, the mood toward the end was that even one railroad in the Northeast was going to be tough to turn around, let alone two.
There was some discussion a while back on Railroad.net about whether the Erie Lackawanna (or the MARC-EL concept) could have survived until today - the problem was that a huge portion of the big businesses customers on the route folded over the years, with little to take their places (example: The Ford Mahwah plant was a huge Erie customer - until it closed in 1980), so the MARC-EL traffic base would have probably collapsed in any event, as it did in this timeline or in an alternate MARC-EL timeline.

dinwitty: When you mentioned a 'shorter GG-1', did you mean the streamlined P5a electrics?

MTH has them

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Posted by shawnee on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 10:32 PM
 Paul3 wrote:

Tjsingle,
Conrail was broken up between two different RR's.  If you want to call that a merger, go right ahead.  I'll continue to call it "cleaved" as in "cut in two.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

 Well, wasn't it cleaved into...three...NS, CSX and Conrail - alive and well in Southern New Jersey.  I believe that Conrail still owns and operates, as a joint operation of CSX and NS, a fair amount of shared trackage in NJ.

And Dave...you know, it's not "PC" to love the PC.  Wink [;)]

Shawnee
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Posted by V&AL on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 9:21 PM

ya mean the box car behind the GG-1?  A Norfolk Southern box car... an ORIGONAL Norfolk and Southern boxcar (from the NS that ran from Charlotte, NC to Suffolk, VA, and was eventually purchased by the Southern)

 

(dont get me goin abotu Thouroughbread on The Curve now...)

 

 All personal feeligns aside folks shoudl do what they want.  There was a time when  I was much younger, I though PC was pretty darn cool.  As I learned about the PRR and railroads in general, I began to change my thoughts.  I'll still enjoy a PC layout, if I ever see one, and I'd be happy to run on one if I ever get the invitation. I jsut don't have the PC in my version of RR history...

Virginia and Alleghenny Railroad Texas and Gulf Coast Railroad (The Dixie Road) PACE: Pittsburgh Area Commuter Express Texas Express
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Posted by Flashwave on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 7:53 PM

REPENT! REPENT!! FOR THE PENSY RETURNETH AT AN HOUR WHICH YOU DO NOT KNOW!!!  (i.e. late as usual:)

 I like the PRR so much I had to change history, I merged it with the Virginian, and The V&AL was born.  I had some PC equipment, but it had to go, no PC in my version of history.  PRR equipment still runs as heritage units:

 

Sorry Dave to steal, but I gots to ask. What;s the boxcar in back?

Go PC if you want. Everyone has a scraggly side now and then.

-Morgan

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Posted by Paul3 on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 7:42 PM

Tjsingle,
Conrail was broken up between two different RR's.  If you want to call that a merger, go right ahead.  I'll continue to call it "cleaved" as in "cut in two."

Conrail, as a gov't take over of bankrupt northeastern RR's, was almost certainly inevitable (the other option for some RR's involved was to go the way of the NYO&W, as in totally gone).  Would it have included NYC if it had merged with the C&O?  Maybe, maybe not.  The B&M managed to avoid Conrail even tho' it was included in the discussions.

IMHO, there should have been two competing northeast "Conrails" roughly along the line of PRR vs. NYC.  Monopolies are generally bad for business (except for the monopoly), so if Conrail had some competition, we may have seen better service.  I know folks sometimes wear Conrail-colored glasses when looking at the mess that CSX is making of things today, but Conrail was not perfect.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

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Posted by Tjsingle on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 5:47 PM
 jep1267 wrote:
 SteamFreak wrote:
 Just remember to make your rails sag at the joints, toss litter everywhere, and cover everything with a healthy layer of Woodland Scenics Bag O' Grime.

Ahhhhhh! Woodland Scenics Bag-o-Grime Laugh [(-D] LOL I gotta get me some of that.

 

For CSX maybe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRraRJB1d7Y

Conrail for ever

Tjsingle

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Posted by Packer on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 5:39 PM

In this hobby, people should be allowed to do whatever they want. If he wants PC, let him have PC. Personally I don't like BNSF, but I don't dis them like it seems people do to PC. (I don't like BNSF because they put my 2 favorite RR's and Paintschemes together, and made one that looks bad to me.)

 G Paine wrote:
 Dave Vollmer wrote:

True, but again it's what I remember from my childhood.  Really, it was early Conrail by the time I have vivid memories of railroading.

This is very true. In Maine in the late 80s and early 90s, you would never see an MEC or B&M locomotive in Guilford Gray in a train show display. In fact, you probably would get tossed out of the building on your ear for trying. These days the Guilford Gray locos are common at shows, but most of the modelers are younger, and the gray is all they remember from first hand trainwatching.

 I model BN, but have only seen a few BN locos. Most of the locos I have seen were either UP, CSX, or SP. Ive seen a few ATSF though.

Vincent

Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....

2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.

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Posted by Tjsingle on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 5:31 PM
 Paul3 wrote:

I've been biting my toungue pretty hard here, but I will say this...

The Penn Central should never have happened.  It took 30 years to undue it with the cleaving of Conrail into CSX and NS.

Paul A. Cutler III
************

************

 

I strongly disagree, now conrail was not just PC, but a collection of railroads that went bankrupt. Now about CSX and NS, they jointly bought conrail, not one railroad, and it was a merger not a cleave

Conrail for ever

and Dave welcome to the club :D

Also now with this change you can by a conrail locomotive and then try it out, now since your layout is pretty much ready for conrail since its PRR, and it hasn't changed alot in western PA, this switch it somewhat easy. Now for your locomotives, The first new locomotives that conrail bought is the B23-7, Altas makes a wonderful B23-7 in Ho and N scales.

I like your early Conrail/PC idea very cool, keep us updated

~Tjsingle

Modeling conrail in a NS and CSX world

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Posted by WCfan on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 5:01 PM
 Dave Vollmer wrote:

In this skit, replace cowbell with Conrail:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ

Gotta love Christopher Walken!  That Blue Oyster Cult skit has to be one of my all-time-favorite SNL moments.

Laugh [(-D] Dave I'd go with you Conrail, heavy on the PC idea.

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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 1:49 PM

In this skit, replace cowbell with Conrail:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ

Gotta love Christopher Walken!  That Blue Oyster Cult skit has to be one of my all-time-favorite SNL moments.

Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.

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Posted by dinwitty on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 12:08 PM
 SteamFreak wrote:
 Kenfolk wrote:

 

Dave, beware of the slippery slope ---

  • Pennsy > Penn Central
  • Penn Central > NS with PRR reporting marks
  • Horrors!  No steam!
  • Steam?  611, 1218...
  • Before you realize what happened, you'll be modeling the Norfolk & Western!

And then what.....Freelancing!?!

No, it's far worse...

TYCO collecting!  Shock [:O]

So remember, if someone offers you some Penn Central - just say no.

There was actually a shorter version of a GG1, not called a GG1, but it sure wasnt that wheel arrangement! You might be able to bash one of those and make it.

 

But if I see one og those at a train show, I'm immediately looking at the brass next to it... 

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Posted by G Paine on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 11:13 AM
 Dave Vollmer wrote:

True, but again it's what I remember from my childhood.  Really, it was early Conrail by the time I have vivid memories of railroading.

This is very true. In Maine in the late 80s and early 90s, you would never see an MEC or B&M locomotive in Guilford Gray in a train show display. In fact, you probably would get tossed out of the building on your ear for trying. These days the Guilford Gray locos are common at shows, but most of the modelers are younger, and the gray is all they remember from first hand trainwatching.

George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch 

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Posted by OzarkBelt on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 8:12 AM

I've said it before....

I'll say it again: It's your railroad, Dave. Go for it! Modeling what you remamber growing up can be a great experience as you relieve those old memories. I mean, look at Tony Koester- He's modeling what he remembers from his childhood. There's nothing wrong with doing it the same.

Hope this helps.

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot Visit my blog! http://becomingawarriorpoet.blogspot.com

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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 6:46 AM

Don't get me wrong...  I wish that Pennsy, NYC, and the NYNH&H were all still running as seperate corporate entities...  But in this era of mega-merger, it's doubtful that would be the case under any circumstance.

Modeling early Conrail (with a heavy PC-bent) is not so much blessing the corporate disaster as it is recapturing my formative years.  I can remember chasing a very old Alco or Baldwin switcher (no way to know for sure; I was very young) along the Reading Co's line through East Petersburg and Manheim, PA with my dad a year or two after Conrail came along.  It was painted black (a CR paint-out of a PC unit) and moving slower than a walk.  It had a few boxcars in tow (one, I do remember, was a green RDG boxcar).  The track was in rough shape and everything looked as if it would topple over.

Contrast that with the Amtrak line through nearby Lancaster with GG1s still flying at speed...  Neat stuff, regardless of the corporate idiocy that led to the situation.

Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.

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