The best part about modeling the PC is, when guests come over and your layout is overcome by gremlins (it only happens when people visit the layout, you know...) you can just tell them that you are strictly following prototype practice! (mechanical failures, derailments...)
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Great inputs, everyone!
I'm still leaning toward 1977 plus or mins 3 years as my second era, so I can run everything from solid PC (1974, the year I was born) to 1980, with lotsa Conrail blue and Amtrak Phase III. For reference, Conrail started operations in, I believe, April of 1976.
I love the PRR to death... but somehow, the thought of reproducing the eastern PA/NJ/NY I remember as a kid is really exciting!
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
One additional thought here...
Standing derailments, washouts, engine failures, patchy paint jobs, poor service, decaying track, service delays, carload tariffs, unprofitable passenger service, etc...
When it's Penn Central, people condemn it is an awful prototype.
When it's the Rio Grande Southern, people rush to make a model of every car, loco, Galloping Goose, and structure on the line.
Just food for thought...! FWIW, I once modeled the RGS in HOn3.
I hear ya Dave!
I was bitten by the Penn Central bug years ago. I was born in New York City and lived there thru the early 70s. As a little kid, I remember spending so much time looking out of my parent's 3rd story apartment window below the Bruckner Expressway. Across the street, in a ditch, was that famous 4-track mainline with trains running by day and night.
I had no way of knowing that I was watching railroad history unfolding as the New Haven and Pennsy were transitioning to the PC. I just enjoyed watching the trains cruise by.
I still am planning on putting Penn Central "worms" on 3 of these puppies here and a "Keystone" on another one.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Very nice Dave and welcome to the Darkside!!!! I was going to do an older layout and do PRR Steam in HO, but then again, I really like diesels better anyhow and since I grew up on the mainline and had relatives that worked on both I decided to do the PC/CR transition days. That really gave me the freedom to do what I wanted in that era, but I could still put a M-1 or K-4 on there and make it like and excursion train or something. I'll me anxious to see what you do with some more modern equipment since your steam stuff is so good.
Good luck Dave, I'll be waiting to see.
Here is a pic of aGP-7 that was Union Pacific I redid in PC and painted it that very very dark PRR green. I'm not fond of all black loco's as was most of the PC fleet.
And here's one of my GP-9's double headed with a PC green but CR decaled Highcube from Proto1K.
On my office layout, I've made it a timeless Western Pennsylvania layout. I have no turnouts so the only variety will come from running different trains.
My first train is already made up. It's a modern Buffalo and Pittsburgh coal drag that is made up of scavenged 90-ton hoppers.
My next train will be a modern NS mixed freight.
The third train will be a Hoodlebug.
And the 4th train will be a PRR 2-8-0 pulling 40 footers.
******************************************
You know, it never once occurred to me to run Penn Central. Must be because I don't have a fever.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I've been biting my toungue pretty hard here, but I will say this...
The Penn Central should never have happened. It took 30 years to undue it with the cleaving of Conrail into CSX and NS.
Paul A. Cutler III************************
Paul3 wrote: I've been biting my toungue pretty hard here, but I will say this...The Penn Central should never have happened. It took 30 years to undue it with the cleaving of Conrail into CSX and NS.Paul A. Cutler III************************
True, but again it's what I remember from my childhood. Really, it was early Conrail by the time I have vivid memories of railroading.
So your objection is duely noted.
Dave,
I think you should go for it. As a pennsylvanian native, I've often been tempted to change from a midwestern road to the PC, CR, or NS. mostly because that's the era I'm familar with and enjoy. It's your railroad. Do what you want. Lookinf forward to some good pics though!!!
BTW, I don't like RGS.
*ducks out of the door due to swarm of angry RGS fans*
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot Visit my blog! http://becomingawarriorpoet.blogspot.com
Dave, beware of the slippery slope ---Pennsy > Penn CentralPenn Central > NS with PRR reporting marksHorrors! No steam!Steam? 611, 1218...Before you realize what happened, you'll be modeling the Norfolk & Western!
Dave, beware of the slippery slope ---
SteamFreak wrote: Just remember to make your rails sag at the joints, toss litter everywhere, and cover everything with a healthy layer of Woodland Scenics Bag O' Grime.
Ahhhhhh! Woodland Scenics Bag-o-Grime LOL I gotta get me some of that.
Kenfolk wrote: Dave, beware of the slippery slope ---Pennsy > Penn CentralPenn Central > NS with PRR reporting marksHorrors! No steam!Steam? 611, 1218...Before you realize what happened, you'll be modeling the Norfolk & Western! And then what.....Freelancing!?!
And then what.....Freelancing!?!
No, it's far worse...
TYCO collecting!
So remember, if someone offers you some Penn Central - just say no.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
For sure if you're going to model anything past the 60's in the northeast you'll have to deal with the lot of it PC, Conrail and Amtrak. For most of us that remember the era before, PC was a nightmare of lousy service, poor maintainence and filthy equipment, the unavoidable result of government indifference and changing times and insufficient capital. At least you'll be able to run anything patched or unpatched from NYC, PRR or NH as it was all scrambled together along with other stock from all over the U.S. In the early Amtrak era we even have pics of passenger trains in Connecticut with a virtual smorgasboard(sp) of cars (PRR, Rio Grande, Sante Fe, etc) all surplussed off and pressed into service unaltered.
As a New Haven fan, my one comfort these days is seeing the modern "heritage" paint jobs on ConnDot equipment - possibly the only way the new Genisis power units will ever look ok and a thrill when the FL-9's are filling in on the local commuter runs. If it keeps your kids happy and involved and makes sense to you, go for it. J.R.
Don't get me wrong... I wish that Pennsy, NYC, and the NYNH&H were all still running as seperate corporate entities... But in this era of mega-merger, it's doubtful that would be the case under any circumstance.
Modeling early Conrail (with a heavy PC-bent) is not so much blessing the corporate disaster as it is recapturing my formative years. I can remember chasing a very old Alco or Baldwin switcher (no way to know for sure; I was very young) along the Reading Co's line through East Petersburg and Manheim, PA with my dad a year or two after Conrail came along. It was painted black (a CR paint-out of a PC unit) and moving slower than a walk. It had a few boxcars in tow (one, I do remember, was a green RDG boxcar). The track was in rough shape and everything looked as if it would topple over.
Contrast that with the Amtrak line through nearby Lancaster with GG1s still flying at speed... Neat stuff, regardless of the corporate idiocy that led to the situation.
I've said it before....
I'll say it again: It's your railroad, Dave. Go for it! Modeling what you remamber growing up can be a great experience as you relieve those old memories. I mean, look at Tony Koester- He's modeling what he remembers from his childhood. There's nothing wrong with doing it the same.
Hope this helps.
Dave Vollmer wrote: True, but again it's what I remember from my childhood. Really, it was early Conrail by the time I have vivid memories of railroading.
This is very true. In Maine in the late 80s and early 90s, you would never see an MEC or B&M locomotive in Guilford Gray in a train show display. In fact, you probably would get tossed out of the building on your ear for trying. These days the Guilford Gray locos are common at shows, but most of the modelers are younger, and the gray is all they remember from first hand trainwatching.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
SteamFreak wrote: Kenfolk wrote: Dave, beware of the slippery slope ---Pennsy > Penn CentralPenn Central > NS with PRR reporting marksHorrors! No steam!Steam? 611, 1218...Before you realize what happened, you'll be modeling the Norfolk & Western! And then what.....Freelancing!?!No, it's far worse...TYCO collecting! So remember, if someone offers you some Penn Central - just say no.
There was actually a shorter version of a GG1, not called a GG1, but it sure wasnt that wheel arrangement! You might be able to bash one of those and make it.
But if I see one og those at a train show, I'm immediately looking at the brass next to it...
In this skit, replace cowbell with Conrail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ
Gotta love Christopher Walken! That Blue Oyster Cult skit has to be one of my all-time-favorite SNL moments.
Dave Vollmer wrote: In this skit, replace cowbell with Conrail:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQGotta love Christopher Walken! That Blue Oyster Cult skit has to be one of my all-time-favorite SNL moments.
Dave I'd go with you Conrail, heavy on the PC idea.
My Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JR7582 My Flickr Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wcfan/
I strongly disagree, now conrail was not just PC, but a collection of railroads that went bankrupt. Now about CSX and NS, they jointly bought conrail, not one railroad, and it was a merger not a cleave
Conrail for ever
and Dave welcome to the club :D
Also now with this change you can by a conrail locomotive and then try it out, now since your layout is pretty much ready for conrail since its PRR, and it hasn't changed alot in western PA, this switch it somewhat easy. Now for your locomotives, The first new locomotives that conrail bought is the B23-7, Altas makes a wonderful B23-7 in Ho and N scales.
I like your early Conrail/PC idea very cool, keep us updated
~Tjsingle
Modeling conrail in a NS and CSX world
In this hobby, people should be allowed to do whatever they want. If he wants PC, let him have PC. Personally I don't like BNSF, but I don't dis them like it seems people do to PC. (I don't like BNSF because they put my 2 favorite RR's and Paintschemes together, and made one that looks bad to me.)
G Paine wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote: True, but again it's what I remember from my childhood. Really, it was early Conrail by the time I have vivid memories of railroading.This is very true. In Maine in the late 80s and early 90s, you would never see an MEC or B&M locomotive in Guilford Gray in a train show display. In fact, you probably would get tossed out of the building on your ear for trying. These days the Guilford Gray locos are common at shows, but most of the modelers are younger, and the gray is all they remember from first hand trainwatching.
I model BN, but have only seen a few BN locos. Most of the locos I have seen were either UP, CSX, or SP. Ive seen a few ATSF though.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
jep1267 wrote: SteamFreak wrote: Just remember to make your rails sag at the joints, toss litter everywhere, and cover everything with a healthy layer of Woodland Scenics Bag O' Grime. Ahhhhhh! Woodland Scenics Bag-o-Grime LOL I gotta get me some of that.
For CSX maybe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRraRJB1d7Y
Tjsingle
Tjsingle,Conrail was broken up between two different RR's. If you want to call that a merger, go right ahead. I'll continue to call it "cleaved" as in "cut in two."
Conrail, as a gov't take over of bankrupt northeastern RR's, was almost certainly inevitable (the other option for some RR's involved was to go the way of the NYO&W, as in totally gone). Would it have included NYC if it had merged with the C&O? Maybe, maybe not. The B&M managed to avoid Conrail even tho' it was included in the discussions.
IMHO, there should have been two competing northeast "Conrails" roughly along the line of PRR vs. NYC. Monopolies are generally bad for business (except for the monopoly), so if Conrail had some competition, we may have seen better service. I know folks sometimes wear Conrail-colored glasses when looking at the mess that CSX is making of things today, but Conrail was not perfect.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
REPENT! REPENT!! FOR THE PENSY RETURNETH AT AN HOUR WHICH YOU DO NOT KNOW!!! (i.e. late as usual:) I like the PRR so much I had to change history, I merged it with the Virginian, and The V&AL was born. I had some PC equipment, but it had to go, no PC in my version of history. PRR equipment still runs as heritage units:
I like the PRR so much I had to change history, I merged it with the Virginian, and The V&AL was born. I had some PC equipment, but it had to go, no PC in my version of history. PRR equipment still runs as heritage units:
Sorry Dave to steal, but I gots to ask. What;s the boxcar in back?
Go PC if you want. Everyone has a scraggly side now and then.
-Morgan
ya mean the box car behind the GG-1? A Norfolk Southern box car... an ORIGONAL Norfolk and Southern boxcar (from the NS that ran from Charlotte, NC to Suffolk, VA, and was eventually purchased by the Southern)
(dont get me goin abotu Thouroughbread on The Curve now...)
All personal feeligns aside folks shoudl do what they want. There was a time when I was much younger, I though PC was pretty darn cool. As I learned about the PRR and railroads in general, I began to change my thoughts. I'll still enjoy a PC layout, if I ever see one, and I'd be happy to run on one if I ever get the invitation. I jsut don't have the PC in my version of RR history...
Paul3 wrote: Tjsingle,Conrail was broken up between two different RR's. If you want to call that a merger, go right ahead. I'll continue to call it "cleaved" as in "cut in two.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Tjsingle,Conrail was broken up between two different RR's. If you want to call that a merger, go right ahead. I'll continue to call it "cleaved" as in "cut in two.
Well, wasn't it cleaved into...three...NS, CSX and Conrail - alive and well in Southern New Jersey. I believe that Conrail still owns and operates, as a joint operation of CSX and NS, a fair amount of shared trackage in NJ.
And Dave...you know, it's not "PC" to love the PC.
Paul3 wrote: IMHO, there should have been two competing northeast "Conrails" roughly along the line of PRR vs. NYC. Monopolies are generally bad for business (except for the monopoly), so if Conrail had some competition, we may have seen better service
Could have happened, there was a concept for two competing North East railroads: MARC-EL (Erie Lackwanna + several CNJ & Reading lines) and (a smaller) ConRail - however, the mood toward the end was that even one railroad in the Northeast was going to be tough to turn around, let alone two.There was some discussion a while back on Railroad.net about whether the Erie Lackawanna (or the MARC-EL concept) could have survived until today - the problem was that a huge portion of the big businesses customers on the route folded over the years, with little to take their places (example: The Ford Mahwah plant was a huge Erie customer - until it closed in 1980), so the MARC-EL traffic base would have probably collapsed in any event, as it did in this timeline or in an alternate MARC-EL timeline.
dinwitty: When you mentioned a 'shorter GG-1', did you mean the streamlined P5a electrics?
MTH has them
Packer wrote: In this hobby, people should be allowed to do whatever they want. If he wants PC, let him have PC. Personally I don't like BNSF, but I don't dis them like it seems people do to PC. (I don't like BNSF because they put my 2 favorite RR's and Paintschemes together, and made one that looks bad to me.) G Paine wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote: True, but again it's what I remember from my childhood. Really, it was early Conrail by the time I have vivid memories of railroading.This is very true. In Maine in the late 80s and early 90s, you would never see an MEC or B&M locomotive in Guilford Gray in a train show display. In fact, you probably would get tossed out of the building on your ear for trying. These days the Guilford Gray locos are common at shows, but most of the modelers are younger, and the gray is all they remember from first hand trainwatching. I model BN, but have only seen a few BN locos. Most of the locos I have seen were either UP, CSX, or SP. Ive seen a few ATSF though.
I associate Guilford with the sign of an end for the D&H, B&M and MEC. Guilford did not do any good for these roads, in fact I think they ruined the D&H until NYSW ( with CSX backing ) and CP Rail stepped in. What does this have to do with PC? They eventually got better with the creation of Conrail, Guilford just made everything worse. Yes I do have Guilford motive power but, I really like their paint scheme, so if you like it, run it, no matter how bad the prototype was.
Paul3 wrote: Tjsingle,Conrail was broken up between two different RR's. If you want to call that a merger, go right ahead. I'll continue to call it "cleaved" as in "cut in two."Conrail, as a gov't take over of bankrupt northeastern RR's, was almost certainly inevitable (the other option for some RR's involved was to go the way of the NYO&W, as in totally gone). Would it have included NYC if it had merged with the C&O? Maybe, maybe not. The B&M managed to avoid Conrail even tho' it was included in the discussions.IMHO, there should have been two competing northeast "Conrails" roughly along the line of PRR vs. NYC. Monopolies are generally bad for business (except for the monopoly), so if Conrail had some competition, we may have seen better service. I know folks sometimes wear Conrail-colored glasses when looking at the mess that CSX is making of things today, but Conrail was not perfect.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Im not trying to say conrail was prefect, it wasn't, all railroads haves ups and downs. But remeber CSX does have some pretty bad trackage in alot of places.
Maybe Conrail wasn't perfect, but when you consider what they started with, it wasn't too bad. One of the reasons the "single system plan" was adopted was because the proposed second system was supposed to include Chessie as one of the operators. They chickened out, and decided it was better for Uncle Sam to do the heavy lifting.
In the end, Conrail made money for the government, on top of paying back every cent that was invested. It also was the poster child for the Staggers Act, which effectively unshackled the railroads from regulation that had been in place for over 100 years.
What you have today is essentially what was talked about in the late 50's, with two systems in the northeast centered primarily around the PRR and the Central, only today it's NS and CSX that survive. I don't know if that arrangement would have survived intact back then either, given the fact that archaic regulation, increasing competition from highways and airlines, and a collapsing post-war industrial base would have affected their fortunes either way.