Welcome to the dark side Dave!
Penn central RULES!
Carl T.
Hi, Dave!
The next thing you need is a figure painted up to represent Stuart Saunders. Tree, noose and angry stockholders optional.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Watch that slide into CR timeframe, you may have to remodel everything! That being said, Walthers used to make a decal set that was a for PC boxcar that had been relettered for CR. It's a rusty car with the PC noodle and reporting marks painted out in jade green
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Dave, that's just WRONG.
On so many levels.
Andre
Oh yeah? Just wait until I do the CR - PC black loco paint-out!
I can't wait until I get a chance to do one of these babies:
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Dave Vollmer wrote: Oh yeah? Just wait until I do the CR - PC black loco paint-out!I can't wait until I get a chance to do one of these babies:
Brethren and Sistern. I say Brethren and Sistern. Let us pray for our poor benighted brother Dave who has lost his way and now wanders in the wilderness of Penn Central despair. Only with constant prayer can our brother be returned from the outer darkness to the paths of righteousness that he may walk in the light. Can I get an "Amen"?
Amen to that andre!
Dave, here's what you giotta do - go outside, find some coal, light said coal, breathe deep... and come back to the light side
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Used to trainwatch at Waterloo, IN when it was NYC then the merger. Shot some film there too.
There was a branch that ran from Ft Wayne to Waterloo that ended or crossed sometime. GR&I that is. A friend walked it all the way from Ft Wayne and we met him up at Waterloo and took him home. Active line, so the action was hot, double track, trains taking the crossovers to do a pass or whatever. Then The passenger train would come and stop. Time went by and the passengers didnt stop. The depot was closed and moved, I guess maybe as a historical spot or museum, dunno. Whatatyme.
We'd watch the signals and guess what the action might be, a train might come screamin thru or hit the crossover, or the local came by and did a little work, the engine sometimes there idling away.
Then we go and hit Pops, a little Ice Cream spot run by this fella, just some little trailer sized place in the middle of the sidewalk, and get cones or Ice cream or floats.
Very quaint little thing.
Dave, beware of the slippery slope ---
My original layout concept was an early Conrail theme, with lots of PC power and paint outs, Amtrak phase 2, and a spin-off shortline with a live interchange. When I see Ed's growing collection of paint outs, I sometimes pine for those days. I cut my railfanning teeth back in the late 70's with trips to Enola and the Middle Division. Those big stone arches, the lousy track, Trailvans with six geeps up front...
(They did that to make sure that at least 3 of them were still working by the end of the trip...)
Between the historic landscape built by the Pennsy (and the other CR predecessors of course...) the corporate intrigue that created and ultimately brought down the PC, and the determination that Conrail and its people had to bring it all out of the ashes, and literally changed the way the nation's railroads did business... makes for some fascinating stuff.
We're with you 100%, Dave!Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
I dunno I could ever do the PC, after the greatness for what the NYC and Pennsy were, it feels like the doldrums and that the 2 could even think about merging, the great competitors. When that happened just about everybody was WHUT?!?!?!
But maybe its like modeling a beat up backwoods logging line, there gets to be a certain frugalness about it, and yes your right, track maintenance wasn't always best, rockin and rollin cars, I got film to prove it. Consider modeling that..err..hehehe (/me carves out a few dips into the roadbed)
!960's after thru the 70's is kinda like also the shock of no more steam either on the railroads. I think the railroad world was going thru an adjustment. Its also the time of favorite lines abandoning or edging on abandonment like the North Shore and the C&O letting the South Shore cars rust out on thinking they will abandon the electric.
Lots of Doldrums and bailouts and recovery (or losses)
Folks have strong feelings about the PC, and they're rarely good.
I'm really leaning toward doing very early Conrail which was still heavy w/ PC stuff.
The ideal train would be a blue CR diesel with a black PC/CR paint-out behind with maybe a RDG paint-out for a third, with a mix of cars from the Northeast bankrupts, and a CR cabin.
I love the Pennsy and am not giving up a single piece of my PRR roster. Allowing a second era (namely the mid- to late-70s) gives me the chance to model what I remember as a young boy (I was born too late for Pennsy), as well as to strike a balance with my 5-year-old, who loves Conrail and Amtrak. Of course, he'd rather run P42s and Superliners and doesn't quite realize that the Conrail diesels he sees around here are owned by CSX and will be repainted in due time, but...
The attraction to model what one remembers as a child is a very strong one. If only I'd been more aware of the GG1s and all of the rainbow Conrail paint-outs I took for granted when I was so young... All gone now, even Conrail.
I did Conrail railfanning from Penn State as a college student... ...so the day they moved a Conrail (ex-PC ex-PRR) GP30 into the Railroad Museum of PA (along with the Silverliner cars I rode with my mother from Lancaster to Philadelphia), I began to realize how much had changed.
Speaking of PC and Lancaster... Anyone remember the pair of PC baggage cars that sat next to the head house at Lancaster station well into the 90s? They finally came out to Strasburg for restoration. It'll be interesting to see if they come back PC or NYC.
Dave - Here is an N scale Kato SD40 that I did about 5 years ago.
Dave,
My interests are Milwaukee Road in the late 50'. My son was interested in 'Amtrak' and those flashing FRED's on the back of freight trains. I guess it has a lot to do with what you think you remember when you were a kid!
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I guess I'm an outlier on that "model what you grew up with" trend. If that was the case, I'd be modelling the '90s... modern diesels are just too ugly for my tastes (though I can live with some of the 1st generation ones... barely )
There's a member on the Atlas forum who models the PC, his signature contains an interesting slogan that sums it all up:
"Penn Central - no way to run a railroad, but fun to model!"
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
cf-7 wrote: Dave - Here is an N scale Kato SD40 that I did about 5 years ago.
NeO6874 wrote: I guess I'm an outlier on that "model what you grew up with" trend. If that was the case, I'd be modelling the '90s... modern diesels are just too ugly for my tastes (though I can live with some of the 1st generation ones... barely )
I'm in the same boat right now, modeling 1956. I do love steam. And the 50s were really the last great decade of the PRR... The long slide had already begun, but outwardly it still appeared healthy.
But other than seeing the cold carcasses of the PRR great steam fleet at the RR Museum of PA (and riding behind PRR 1223 and 7002 when they still ran on the Strasburg), PRR steam was a distant dream to me. One I wish were memory, but a dream only.
My formative years were the painful re-birth of Northeastern railroading from the ashes of bankrupcy. That rebirth was not without death; many thousands of miles of track were abandoned to make Conrail profitable.
Here's mine. I love it.
Ah, yes, the Nixon-Carter years... those were good times.
Just remember to make your rails sag at the joints, toss litter everywhere, and cover everything with a healthy layer of Woodland Scenics Bag O' Grime.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=193019&nseq=75
I grew up during the PC era as well. I remember filthy GG1's hauling freight. Kind of sad, but interesting too.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
SecretWeapon, what is the deal with that Passenger Platform height in that second image you posted? It looks higher than the passengers?
Actually I think the later Penn Central years might well be worth modeling - say 1973/1974. Consider that the Penn Central (and CNJ, and Reading et al - maybe not Erie Lackawanna, although Hurricane Agnes certainly mucked them up) was operating like a shoe-string operation - yet it owned a significant amount of the US rail freight car fleet, and generated quite a bit of traffic. During those years (when nobody was quite sure of the end-game), it still carried a lot of freight - deregulation had not occured, there were still lots of factories and facilities in the North East (although the rust belt concept was beginning to get notices), the coming failure of the (vertically integrated) US steel industry was probably not on everyone's radar screen...plenty of local freight and old time railroading, mixed with the new forms of freight cars that started to emerged during the 1960s - Centerflow hoppers, outside Post Boxcars (sans roofwalks), pneumatic Covered hoppers, 70t mech reefers, 100ton hoppers, steel coil cars, frameless tankcars, TOFC/COFC and so on - (plus experimental 'few offs' like Pregnant Whale tank cars or NYC Clamshell coil cars), and best of all these relatively new cars could be heavily weathered (unless owned by BN, or Santa Fe, or UP, or some of the railroads of the period who still cared). Throw in beat looking 1st generation F-Units and GP9s, and somewhat used looking 2nd Gens like GP38s and SD40s, and have a blast (and take those steam engines and 'stuff and mount' them in big town parks along your layout - make sure you model kids climbing over them during the day, and teens doing some dubes in the cab at night).Best of all, you get to use all the cool looking HO scale vehicles from the late 1960s and early 70s that manfacturer's are turning out.
jrbernier wrote:Dave, My interests are Milwaukee Road in the late 50'. My son was interested in 'Amtrak' and those flashing FRED's on the back of freight trains. I guess it has a lot to do with what you think you remember when you were a kid!Jim
That's how I think, I guess. I remember when the local stuff I saw was SD38s and SD40T-2s, with the daily local to the steel mill in town was behind a pair of SD9s and the pre-winter rush to Lake Erie brought a few ancient F units out of hiding. Nothing had a wide cab either. Any future layout I build will have a healthy core of SD40-2s.
Yep, it's hard to stick to one era. Personally, I'm looking to go the other way. Have a 50's Ma&Pa and a 20's version of rolling stock.
Enjoy
Paul
REPENT! REPENT!! FOR THE PENSY RETURNETH AT AN HOUR WHICH YOU DO NOT KNOW!!! (i.e. late as usual:)
I like the PRR so much I had to change history, I merged it with the Virginian, and The V&AL was born. I had some PC equipment, but it had to go, no PC in my version of history. PRR equipment still runs as heritage units:
Go for it Dave. I model the NYC, mostly in the 50s. I have several videos which show th PC on the pointy end - on the rails in the Midwest.
It was a busy vital link for many businesses and towns. Before the actual end of passenger service they ran dozens of passenger trains. Some are fascinating, with PRR, NYC and PC E units on the point. Sometimes all three!
I too have thought about changing eras to the PC. It is tempting, they ran virtually every type diesel of locomotive available at the time. So virtually anything in my roster would still be usable. And paint-outs/patch jobs would be fun and easy to do. We'll see.
I wish you luck.
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
The best part about modeling the PC is, when guests come over and your layout is overcome by gremlins (it only happens when people visit the layout, you know...) you can just tell them that you are strictly following prototype practice! (mechanical failures, derailments...)
Lee
Great inputs, everyone!
I'm still leaning toward 1977 plus or mins 3 years as my second era, so I can run everything from solid PC (1974, the year I was born) to 1980, with lotsa Conrail blue and Amtrak Phase III. For reference, Conrail started operations in, I believe, April of 1976.
I love the PRR to death... but somehow, the thought of reproducing the eastern PA/NJ/NY I remember as a kid is really exciting!
One additional thought here...
Standing derailments, washouts, engine failures, patchy paint jobs, poor service, decaying track, service delays, carload tariffs, unprofitable passenger service, etc...
When it's Penn Central, people condemn it is an awful prototype.
When it's the Rio Grande Southern, people rush to make a model of every car, loco, Galloping Goose, and structure on the line.
Just food for thought...! FWIW, I once modeled the RGS in HOn3.
I hear ya Dave!
I was bitten by the Penn Central bug years ago. I was born in New York City and lived there thru the early 70s. As a little kid, I remember spending so much time looking out of my parent's 3rd story apartment window below the Bruckner Expressway. Across the street, in a ditch, was that famous 4-track mainline with trains running by day and night.
I had no way of knowing that I was watching railroad history unfolding as the New Haven and Pennsy were transitioning to the PC. I just enjoyed watching the trains cruise by.
I still am planning on putting Penn Central "worms" on 3 of these puppies here and a "Keystone" on another one.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Very nice Dave and welcome to the Darkside!!!! I was going to do an older layout and do PRR Steam in HO, but then again, I really like diesels better anyhow and since I grew up on the mainline and had relatives that worked on both I decided to do the PC/CR transition days. That really gave me the freedom to do what I wanted in that era, but I could still put a M-1 or K-4 on there and make it like and excursion train or something. I'll me anxious to see what you do with some more modern equipment since your steam stuff is so good.
Good luck Dave, I'll be waiting to see.
Here is a pic of aGP-7 that was Union Pacific I redid in PC and painted it that very very dark PRR green. I'm not fond of all black loco's as was most of the PC fleet.
And here's one of my GP-9's double headed with a PC green but CR decaled Highcube from Proto1K.
On my office layout, I've made it a timeless Western Pennsylvania layout. I have no turnouts so the only variety will come from running different trains.
My first train is already made up. It's a modern Buffalo and Pittsburgh coal drag that is made up of scavenged 90-ton hoppers.
My next train will be a modern NS mixed freight.
The third train will be a Hoodlebug.
And the 4th train will be a PRR 2-8-0 pulling 40 footers.
******************************************
You know, it never once occurred to me to run Penn Central. Must be because I don't have a fever.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I've been biting my toungue pretty hard here, but I will say this...
The Penn Central should never have happened. It took 30 years to undue it with the cleaving of Conrail into CSX and NS.
Paul A. Cutler III************************
Paul3 wrote: I've been biting my toungue pretty hard here, but I will say this...The Penn Central should never have happened. It took 30 years to undue it with the cleaving of Conrail into CSX and NS.Paul A. Cutler III************************
True, but again it's what I remember from my childhood. Really, it was early Conrail by the time I have vivid memories of railroading.
So your objection is duely noted.
I think you should go for it. As a pennsylvanian native, I've often been tempted to change from a midwestern road to the PC, CR, or NS. mostly because that's the era I'm familar with and enjoy. It's your railroad. Do what you want. Lookinf forward to some good pics though!!!
BTW, I don't like RGS.
*ducks out of the door due to swarm of angry RGS fans*
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot Visit my blog! http://becomingawarriorpoet.blogspot.com
Dave, beware of the slippery slope ---Pennsy > Penn CentralPenn Central > NS with PRR reporting marksHorrors! No steam!Steam? 611, 1218...Before you realize what happened, you'll be modeling the Norfolk & Western!
SteamFreak wrote: Just remember to make your rails sag at the joints, toss litter everywhere, and cover everything with a healthy layer of Woodland Scenics Bag O' Grime.
Ahhhhhh! Woodland Scenics Bag-o-Grime LOL I gotta get me some of that.
Kenfolk wrote: Dave, beware of the slippery slope ---Pennsy > Penn CentralPenn Central > NS with PRR reporting marksHorrors! No steam!Steam? 611, 1218...Before you realize what happened, you'll be modeling the Norfolk & Western! And then what.....Freelancing!?!
And then what.....Freelancing!?!
No, it's far worse...
TYCO collecting!
So remember, if someone offers you some Penn Central - just say no.
For sure if you're going to model anything past the 60's in the northeast you'll have to deal with the lot of it PC, Conrail and Amtrak. For most of us that remember the era before, PC was a nightmare of lousy service, poor maintainence and filthy equipment, the unavoidable result of government indifference and changing times and insufficient capital. At least you'll be able to run anything patched or unpatched from NYC, PRR or NH as it was all scrambled together along with other stock from all over the U.S. In the early Amtrak era we even have pics of passenger trains in Connecticut with a virtual smorgasboard(sp) of cars (PRR, Rio Grande, Sante Fe, etc) all surplussed off and pressed into service unaltered.
As a New Haven fan, my one comfort these days is seeing the modern "heritage" paint jobs on ConnDot equipment - possibly the only way the new Genisis power units will ever look ok and a thrill when the FL-9's are filling in on the local commuter runs. If it keeps your kids happy and involved and makes sense to you, go for it. J.R.
Don't get me wrong... I wish that Pennsy, NYC, and the NYNH&H were all still running as seperate corporate entities... But in this era of mega-merger, it's doubtful that would be the case under any circumstance.
Modeling early Conrail (with a heavy PC-bent) is not so much blessing the corporate disaster as it is recapturing my formative years. I can remember chasing a very old Alco or Baldwin switcher (no way to know for sure; I was very young) along the Reading Co's line through East Petersburg and Manheim, PA with my dad a year or two after Conrail came along. It was painted black (a CR paint-out of a PC unit) and moving slower than a walk. It had a few boxcars in tow (one, I do remember, was a green RDG boxcar). The track was in rough shape and everything looked as if it would topple over.
Contrast that with the Amtrak line through nearby Lancaster with GG1s still flying at speed... Neat stuff, regardless of the corporate idiocy that led to the situation.
I've said it before....
I'll say it again: It's your railroad, Dave. Go for it! Modeling what you remamber growing up can be a great experience as you relieve those old memories. I mean, look at Tony Koester- He's modeling what he remembers from his childhood. There's nothing wrong with doing it the same.
Hope this helps.
Dave Vollmer wrote: True, but again it's what I remember from my childhood. Really, it was early Conrail by the time I have vivid memories of railroading.
This is very true. In Maine in the late 80s and early 90s, you would never see an MEC or B&M locomotive in Guilford Gray in a train show display. In fact, you probably would get tossed out of the building on your ear for trying. These days the Guilford Gray locos are common at shows, but most of the modelers are younger, and the gray is all they remember from first hand trainwatching.
SteamFreak wrote: Kenfolk wrote: Dave, beware of the slippery slope ---Pennsy > Penn CentralPenn Central > NS with PRR reporting marksHorrors! No steam!Steam? 611, 1218...Before you realize what happened, you'll be modeling the Norfolk & Western! And then what.....Freelancing!?!No, it's far worse...TYCO collecting! So remember, if someone offers you some Penn Central - just say no.
There was actually a shorter version of a GG1, not called a GG1, but it sure wasnt that wheel arrangement! You might be able to bash one of those and make it.
But if I see one og those at a train show, I'm immediately looking at the brass next to it...
In this skit, replace cowbell with Conrail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ
Gotta love Christopher Walken! That Blue Oyster Cult skit has to be one of my all-time-favorite SNL moments.
Dave Vollmer wrote: In this skit, replace cowbell with Conrail:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQGotta love Christopher Walken! That Blue Oyster Cult skit has to be one of my all-time-favorite SNL moments.
Dave I'd go with you Conrail, heavy on the PC idea.
My Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JR7582 My Flickr Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wcfan/
I strongly disagree, now conrail was not just PC, but a collection of railroads that went bankrupt. Now about CSX and NS, they jointly bought conrail, not one railroad, and it was a merger not a cleave
Conrail for ever
and Dave welcome to the club :D
Also now with this change you can by a conrail locomotive and then try it out, now since your layout is pretty much ready for conrail since its PRR, and it hasn't changed alot in western PA, this switch it somewhat easy. Now for your locomotives, The first new locomotives that conrail bought is the B23-7, Altas makes a wonderful B23-7 in Ho and N scales.
I like your early Conrail/PC idea very cool, keep us updated
~Tjsingle
Modeling conrail in a NS and CSX world
In this hobby, people should be allowed to do whatever they want. If he wants PC, let him have PC. Personally I don't like BNSF, but I don't dis them like it seems people do to PC. (I don't like BNSF because they put my 2 favorite RR's and Paintschemes together, and made one that looks bad to me.)
G Paine wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote: True, but again it's what I remember from my childhood. Really, it was early Conrail by the time I have vivid memories of railroading.This is very true. In Maine in the late 80s and early 90s, you would never see an MEC or B&M locomotive in Guilford Gray in a train show display. In fact, you probably would get tossed out of the building on your ear for trying. These days the Guilford Gray locos are common at shows, but most of the modelers are younger, and the gray is all they remember from first hand trainwatching.
I model BN, but have only seen a few BN locos. Most of the locos I have seen were either UP, CSX, or SP. Ive seen a few ATSF though.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
jep1267 wrote: SteamFreak wrote: Just remember to make your rails sag at the joints, toss litter everywhere, and cover everything with a healthy layer of Woodland Scenics Bag O' Grime. Ahhhhhh! Woodland Scenics Bag-o-Grime LOL I gotta get me some of that.
For CSX maybe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRraRJB1d7Y
Tjsingle
Tjsingle,Conrail was broken up between two different RR's. If you want to call that a merger, go right ahead. I'll continue to call it "cleaved" as in "cut in two."
Conrail, as a gov't take over of bankrupt northeastern RR's, was almost certainly inevitable (the other option for some RR's involved was to go the way of the NYO&W, as in totally gone). Would it have included NYC if it had merged with the C&O? Maybe, maybe not. The B&M managed to avoid Conrail even tho' it was included in the discussions.
IMHO, there should have been two competing northeast "Conrails" roughly along the line of PRR vs. NYC. Monopolies are generally bad for business (except for the monopoly), so if Conrail had some competition, we may have seen better service. I know folks sometimes wear Conrail-colored glasses when looking at the mess that CSX is making of things today, but Conrail was not perfect.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
REPENT! REPENT!! FOR THE PENSY RETURNETH AT AN HOUR WHICH YOU DO NOT KNOW!!! (i.e. late as usual:) I like the PRR so much I had to change history, I merged it with the Virginian, and The V&AL was born. I had some PC equipment, but it had to go, no PC in my version of history. PRR equipment still runs as heritage units:
Sorry Dave to steal, but I gots to ask. What;s the boxcar in back?
Go PC if you want. Everyone has a scraggly side now and then.
-Morgan
ya mean the box car behind the GG-1? A Norfolk Southern box car... an ORIGONAL Norfolk and Southern boxcar (from the NS that ran from Charlotte, NC to Suffolk, VA, and was eventually purchased by the Southern)
(dont get me goin abotu Thouroughbread on The Curve now...)
All personal feeligns aside folks shoudl do what they want. There was a time when I was much younger, I though PC was pretty darn cool. As I learned about the PRR and railroads in general, I began to change my thoughts. I'll still enjoy a PC layout, if I ever see one, and I'd be happy to run on one if I ever get the invitation. I jsut don't have the PC in my version of RR history...
Paul3 wrote: Tjsingle,Conrail was broken up between two different RR's. If you want to call that a merger, go right ahead. I'll continue to call it "cleaved" as in "cut in two.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Tjsingle,Conrail was broken up between two different RR's. If you want to call that a merger, go right ahead. I'll continue to call it "cleaved" as in "cut in two.
Well, wasn't it cleaved into...three...NS, CSX and Conrail - alive and well in Southern New Jersey. I believe that Conrail still owns and operates, as a joint operation of CSX and NS, a fair amount of shared trackage in NJ.
And Dave...you know, it's not "PC" to love the PC.
Paul3 wrote: IMHO, there should have been two competing northeast "Conrails" roughly along the line of PRR vs. NYC. Monopolies are generally bad for business (except for the monopoly), so if Conrail had some competition, we may have seen better service
Could have happened, there was a concept for two competing North East railroads: MARC-EL (Erie Lackwanna + several CNJ & Reading lines) and (a smaller) ConRail - however, the mood toward the end was that even one railroad in the Northeast was going to be tough to turn around, let alone two.There was some discussion a while back on Railroad.net about whether the Erie Lackawanna (or the MARC-EL concept) could have survived until today - the problem was that a huge portion of the big businesses customers on the route folded over the years, with little to take their places (example: The Ford Mahwah plant was a huge Erie customer - until it closed in 1980), so the MARC-EL traffic base would have probably collapsed in any event, as it did in this timeline or in an alternate MARC-EL timeline.
dinwitty: When you mentioned a 'shorter GG-1', did you mean the streamlined P5a electrics?
MTH has them
Packer wrote: In this hobby, people should be allowed to do whatever they want. If he wants PC, let him have PC. Personally I don't like BNSF, but I don't dis them like it seems people do to PC. (I don't like BNSF because they put my 2 favorite RR's and Paintschemes together, and made one that looks bad to me.) G Paine wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote: True, but again it's what I remember from my childhood. Really, it was early Conrail by the time I have vivid memories of railroading.This is very true. In Maine in the late 80s and early 90s, you would never see an MEC or B&M locomotive in Guilford Gray in a train show display. In fact, you probably would get tossed out of the building on your ear for trying. These days the Guilford Gray locos are common at shows, but most of the modelers are younger, and the gray is all they remember from first hand trainwatching. I model BN, but have only seen a few BN locos. Most of the locos I have seen were either UP, CSX, or SP. Ive seen a few ATSF though.
I associate Guilford with the sign of an end for the D&H, B&M and MEC. Guilford did not do any good for these roads, in fact I think they ruined the D&H until NYSW ( with CSX backing ) and CP Rail stepped in. What does this have to do with PC? They eventually got better with the creation of Conrail, Guilford just made everything worse. Yes I do have Guilford motive power but, I really like their paint scheme, so if you like it, run it, no matter how bad the prototype was.
Paul3 wrote: Tjsingle,Conrail was broken up between two different RR's. If you want to call that a merger, go right ahead. I'll continue to call it "cleaved" as in "cut in two."Conrail, as a gov't take over of bankrupt northeastern RR's, was almost certainly inevitable (the other option for some RR's involved was to go the way of the NYO&W, as in totally gone). Would it have included NYC if it had merged with the C&O? Maybe, maybe not. The B&M managed to avoid Conrail even tho' it was included in the discussions.IMHO, there should have been two competing northeast "Conrails" roughly along the line of PRR vs. NYC. Monopolies are generally bad for business (except for the monopoly), so if Conrail had some competition, we may have seen better service. I know folks sometimes wear Conrail-colored glasses when looking at the mess that CSX is making of things today, but Conrail was not perfect.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Im not trying to say conrail was prefect, it wasn't, all railroads haves ups and downs. But remeber CSX does have some pretty bad trackage in alot of places.
Maybe Conrail wasn't perfect, but when you consider what they started with, it wasn't too bad. One of the reasons the "single system plan" was adopted was because the proposed second system was supposed to include Chessie as one of the operators. They chickened out, and decided it was better for Uncle Sam to do the heavy lifting.
In the end, Conrail made money for the government, on top of paying back every cent that was invested. It also was the poster child for the Staggers Act, which effectively unshackled the railroads from regulation that had been in place for over 100 years.
What you have today is essentially what was talked about in the late 50's, with two systems in the northeast centered primarily around the PRR and the Central, only today it's NS and CSX that survive. I don't know if that arrangement would have survived intact back then either, given the fact that archaic regulation, increasing competition from highways and airlines, and a collapsing post-war industrial base would have affected their fortunes either way.
Dave---WHOA!!!
After picking myself up off of the floor at your post, I just hope you 'preserve' those nifty N-scale Pennsy steamers of yours and have a LOT of fan trips for those N-scale railfans on your layout.
For myself, I couldn't be more shocked than if I had suddenly decided to model Union Pacific, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
...oh boy...
Guys, I wasn't really looking for permission, nor was I trying to condone the massive failures in foresight, givernment regulation, and management that led to the Penn Central disaster, nor am I saying I'm happy that Bruswick Green was replaced by Conrail Blue.
No... My point in all this is to explore my recent nostalgia for my youth. Recently I find myself listening occasionally to music from the late 70s/early 80s (except disco, although my wife loves disco - ack!). I think it's because I now have children that age, and I remember what it was like for me then. We even bought them some DVDs of that 70s PBS childrens' show The Electric Company. Talk about retro!
So PC/Conrail and Amtrak, as well as a Long Island Rail Road running FAs (that's right, FAs!) and LIRR freight service complete with yellow and orange cabins are the trains of my youth.
Would I rather have memories of triple-headed K4s on a 4-track main? You bet! But I don't.
twhite wrote: Dave---WHOA!!!After picking myself up off of the floor at your post, I just hope you 'preserve' those nifty N-scale Pennsy steamers of yours and have a LOT of fan trips for those N-scale railfans on your layout. For myself, I couldn't be more shocked than if I had suddenly decided to model Union Pacific, LOL!Tom
Tom,
Don't worry! The idea is to eventually have two seperate rosters. The PRR right-of-way remained pretty much the same until the early 80s when track reductions and signal upgrades were done (after Conrail started making money). That means the same layout can host two eras.
I figure a few interchangeable buildings and a seperate set of autos, and I have pretty much 2 layouts in one.
Nope, the Penny's not going away. But I want to keep my little layout interesting. Alternating eras every few weeks ought to do that nicely!
Dave--
Believe me, friend, if ANYONE understands Nostalgia, it's me! Actually, I broke down and got a set of Rio Grande F-3's last year, which absolutely STUNNED my son when he came down over Christmas. He just stared at them, then at me, then back to them and I said, "Hey, kiddo, I WAS there, remember? I was sixteen when Rio Grande and Espee ran their last steamers."
He just grinned and said, "Oh. Actually, I didn't think you REMEMBERED diesels, Dad."
Whatever that means, LOL!
Dave Vollmer wrote:I figure a few interchangeable buildings and a seperate set of autos, and I have pretty much 2 layouts in one.
Then that neat little station of yours will have to go from this:
To this:
The horror of it (or if you're a youngster like me the neutral feeling of it)
You know where those LIRR FA's came from, don't you...
Mmm-hmmm... That's Right... WM sold theirs back to GE to be converted into power cabs for the Long Island. 302 is sitting in the weeds in upstate NY right now, waiting for CP Rail and CSX to bring her home to WM Country for cosmetic restoration...
wm3798 wrote: You know where those LIRR FA's came from, don't you...
Ya know, they mention that in this month's Trains. Had to buy it for the Strasburg article, of course!
This is only a minor hijack of a thread, but just thought I'd warn you that it looks like the Rock Ridge Branch of the SP just might be winding up the Yuba River. Kindly let me know if you see any slightly out of time phase trains running across your layout.
Please return to your regularly schedule outrage at Dave's delirium.
ahh nostalgia....
(Disclamer: I'm 25, I was born in 1983, the same year the MP and WP dissapeared under Monster Pacific forever)
Right now I have 2 MP diesels pulling a 3 car stack train on my Fred's loco module. I remember the "blue diesel trains" switching the GMAC auto unloading facility by my house. (I was 3 at the time) Then the "yellow diesel trains" started showing up... I was able to put 2 and 2 together. I remember asking my dad (yes at age 3) "Did the yellow train company (UP) take over the blue train company (MP)??
ahhh the good ol' days.
Dave Vollmer wrote: twhite wrote: Dave---WHOA!!!After picking myself up off of the floor at your post, I just hope you 'preserve' those nifty N-scale Pennsy steamers of yours and have a LOT of fan trips for those N-scale railfans on your layout. For myself, I couldn't be more shocked than if I had suddenly decided to model Union Pacific, LOL!TomTom,Don't worry! The idea is to eventually have two seperate rosters. The PRR right-of-way remained pretty much the same until the early 80s when track reductions and signal upgrades were done (after Conrail started making money). That means the same layout can host two eras.I figure a few interchangeable buildings and a seperate set of autos, and I have pretty much 2 layouts in one.Nope, the Penny's not going away. But I want to keep my little layout interesting. Alternating eras every few weeks ought to do that nicely!
get out of my head. I've been thinking the same idea. Tell us how it goes
I miss PC, for the fact that Conrail Day spelled the end of active rail in my hometown. No CR trains ever moved through town, and the abandoned rail was pulled up by '79. GTW didn't make it much farther, only lasting until '83.
Now it's just bike paths and weeds where an active junction once stood. Today, if I want to see any trains, it's 15 miles north by highway to watch NAFTA traffic on CN's Flint Sub. The irony is apparent while paralleling the old NYC grade north on State Hwy. 24 to Lapeer.
With gas prices the way they are, I don't get out railfanning like I used to during the '90s era of cheap oil. Guess walking or riding the rail trail is healthier for me anyway.
NittanyLion wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote:I figure a few interchangeable buildings and a seperate set of autos, and I have pretty much 2 layouts in one.Then that neat little station of yours will have to go from this:To this:The horror of it (or if you're a youngster like me the neutral feeling of it)
you see that alot in old coal/steel towns in Pennsylvania, its pretty sad. Also in Johnstown PA i saw a local with 2 ex conrail SD60I's pretty sad, once road diesels reduced to NS local power :(
SpaceMouse wrote: Tom, This is only a minor hijack of a thread, but just thought I'd warn you that it looks like the Rock Ridge Branch of the SP just might be winding up the Yuba River. Kindly let me know if you see any slightly out of time phase trains running across your layout. Please return to your regularly schedule outrage at Dave's delirium.
Chip--
Let's see--1880's, right? If they suddenly appear near Sierra City, I'll just tell the passengers on the Yuba River Express that we loan the trackage out to movie trains on a regular basis, just like the Sierra Railway, LOL! Besides, SP already has trackage rights on the Sub, so you're welcome up the canyon anytime, Chip!
wm3798,Not all those FA's on the LIRR were from the WM. The NH also had a pair of those (namely, ex-NH's 0401 and 0428) which are now at the Rail Museum of New England and the Danbury Railroad Museum, respectively.
Dave V.,I hear what you're sayin' and all about modeling what you grew up with and all, but to me it was a boring time (I was born in '75, so the early 1980's 'til the early 1990's for me). Everything was the same between Boston and Providence: F40PH's in either Amtrak or MBTA colors, & B23-7's in Conrail blue. Equipment consisted of Amtubes and Bombardier-type coaches. Ho-hum. Oh sure, there were some FP10's around in MBTA colors, some Boise Budds, and other oddballs around. But what I remember are F40PH's and B23-7's.
If I wanted to model modern operations, I'd have to electrify (not happenin'...I love electrics, but I don't want to string catenary wire on my home layout).
Another choice could be the 1970's...but everything was so depressing back then (RR's, music, fashion...ick). For me, to model a railroad, I have to read up on the history. I can't just go out and buy stuff without learning more about it. I don't want to "live" in the 1970's (gas lines, stagflation, etc.) on my layout. I'd rather go back even further...tho' even the 1960's were not something I want to model much of, either.
Nope, I try to stay in the 1950's with occasional diversions into the 1940's (and sometimes, the 1920's). I don't do much in the 1930's for mostly the same reasons why I don't want to model the 1970's...bad times.
I can't understand why folks want to spend their hard earned money on modeling the sad times (paging Mr. Sellios)...but then I can't understand why folks watch "reality" TV, either. Oh, well.
Good grief, Paul.
I have a lot of respect for you but man.........I'm amazed that you comment so negatively on an era that you didn't really live and interact with. Paul, I respected your earlier posts, but your "slant" sounds totally depressing......not the 1970s.
Everything was depressing? To you, definetly, but to many of us that LIVED IT have a totally different view. I remember enjoying the Doobie Brothers, Jackson 5, Seals & Croft, KC, Jim Croce, and Isaac Hayes. Also enjoyed tv shows like Starsky & Hutch, Mod Squad, Welcome Back Kotter, Good Times, Captain Kangaroo, SWAT, All in The Family, the Six Million Dollar Man, Shazam, and The Flip Wilson Show.
Trains? The Southern Crescent was still run by "Southern" and the Silver Star, Silver Meteor, and Champion, under Amtrak's banner, were clean trains run by streamliner era crews that still cared. Santa Fe "F-units" were still providing power on Amtraks "Chief" series trains.
Ah, yeah.......not all was depressing, hum-drum, and doom&gloom as you have been pointing out for the past 3 years. Certainly was a fun time for me.
Bad times.......for some. But great times and memories for many of us that choose to model this time period. You were born in 1975. You certainly missed out on some cool stuff (plenty of E units, Alcos, Fairbanks Morses, Baldwins, and more passenger trains than today.
My sympathies to you.
For the record I was born in 1974. Obviously I grew up in the 80s. But my earliest (and therefore most profoundly formational) memories would have ben in the 1978-1982 era. I remember clearly the East Broad Top Winter Spectacular in 1978 (the 4-year-old me appears with my dad and older brother in a Green Frog movie by Emory Gulash during a very snowy runby).
I vaguely remember GG1s in black. I remember riding the Amtrak Broadway Limited. I remember mostly blue, but a little black Conrail.
Trains of my youth? Maybe that's a stretch. I wasn't quite 2 when Conrail was born. But I associate memories of the late 70s with my now deceased grandparents whom we would visit in Lancaster several times a year, sometimes by rail, but always with a hearty helping of railfanning.
EDIT: Paul, once again, your objection has been noted... and overruled!
Dave Vollmer wrote: For the record I was born in 1974. Obviously I grew up in the 80s. But my earliest (and therefore most profoundly formational) memories would have ben in the 1978-1982 era. I remember clearly the East Broad Top Winter Spectacular in 1978 (the 4-year-old me appears with my dad and older brother in a Green Frog movie by Emory Gulash during a very snowy runby).I vaguely remember GG1s in black. I remember riding the Amtrak Broadway Limited. I remember mostly blue, but a little black Conrail.Trains of my youth? Maybe that's a stretch. I wasn't quite 2 when Conrail was born. But I associate memories of the late 70s with my now deceased grandparents whom we would visit in Lancaster several times a year, sometimes by rail, but always with a hearty helping of railfanning.EDIT: Paul, once again, your objection has been noted... and overruled!
How about a nice warm cup of Conrail?
Just a little something to tempt you, there Dave... Courtesy of your good friends from You Know Where...
Antonio,The 1970's were something we made fun of in the 1980's and 1990's. Therefore I've felt this way a lot longer than just 3 years. The TV, music, fashion, and RR business were almost all awful, IMHO. Not much you can say can change my mind about that. I know it wasn't all bad, but neither were the 1930's. I still don't want to model either decade.
If you lived the '70's, then you have my sympathies! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970%27s How big were your bell bottoms?
I'm doing 1909 now. It has been a few years you know.
What's all this fuss about Dave being pen centric? If a man born into the age of computers wants to model the limitations of ink, then let him. He knows the power of word processing but chooses going back to the roots, back to the days of John Quincy Adams and the session of Congress that over ran so long that they had to provide special funding for a home for 40 unwed pregnant women left in the wake, then let him.
I prefer a pencil myself because you can erase it and you don't have to wad up the paper and throw it away when you want to make a change. Besides all the extra waste of time it's a waste of trees. But then again if the paper gets rained on or you're crying tears because some company with the world's ugliest paint scheme buys up all the bloody noses and black widows and paints them like puke, the ink won't run.
And it's not like you can't get pens in different colors. You can get ink in black or blue or red like you got scribbled all over your paper when you turned in your excellent historical treatise on the merger of the CP and the SP after the meeting with the UP in UT to the home ec teacher.
So when you start to ridicule Dave for choosing the PEN, remember the Pen was the Standard...
Huh? What? Penn Central? Spell it P-E-N-N C-E-N-T-R-A-L
uh, never mind
Tjsingle wrote: jep1267 wrote: SteamFreak wrote: Just remember to make your rails sag at the joints, toss litter everywhere, and cover everything with a healthy layer of Woodland Scenics Bag O' Grime. Ahhhhhh! Woodland Scenics Bag-o-Grime LOL I gotta get me some of that. For CSX maybehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRraRJB1d7YConrail for everTjsingle
Holy #$@#, what would have done that without completely trashing the ties and plates around it? That would have had to been pretty hot!!!!
wm3798 wrote: How about a nice warm cup of Conrail?Just a little something to tempt you, there Dave... Courtesy of your good friends from You Know Where...Lee
Oooo, that's hot!!!
Dave Vollmer wrote: wm3798 wrote: How about a nice warm cup of Conrail?Just a little something to tempt you, there Dave... Courtesy of your good friends from You Know Where...Lee Oooo, that's hot!!!
That's actually quite sweet. No one ever made me a movie.
After this one, you may not want us to make a movie for you...
Cecil B. Dimented
wm3798 wrote: After this one, you may not want us to make a movie for you...Cecil B. Dimented
Let me get this straight. You make a lovey-dovey movie for Dave, but if you made one for me it would be mean and spiteful?
I guess that shows me for making fun of those itty-bitty trains.
...Just don't miss Railfest, and you'll be fine...
wm3798 wrote: ...Just don't miss Railfest, and you'll be fine...Lee
When is it this year? I could bring the kid.
(Once at the curve we had been waiting about an hour for the first train. Pretty rare actually. Finally a MOW GMC pick-up truck came around the curve and honed his horn. My son yells, "I want my money back.")
I'll have to double check, but I think it's July 18-19-20. We usually have a meet up of a bunch of guys from The Railwire forum, and the CR Historical Society.
Was that MOW truck incident 2 years ago? If so, I was probably there with my family, too. There was heat kink down on the mountain someplace.
I explained to my wife that it's just like a model railroad... when you bring someone by to watch the trains run, the gremlins take over!
wm3798 wrote: I'll have to double check, but I think it's July 18-19-20. We usually have a meet up of a bunch of guys from The Railwire forum, and the CR Historical Society. Was that MOW truck incident 2 years ago? If so, I was probably there with my family, too. There was heat kink down on the mountain someplace. I explained to my wife that it's just like a model railroad... when you bring someone by to watch the trains run, the gremlins take over!Lee
It was two years ago.
If that is the weekend, I think I can make it. I'll just be back from vacation and my son will be back from a month-long whirlwind US tour of the South US.
Paul A. Cutler III
Yes, Paul I understand. No, I'm not going to change your mind or am going to try. Just trying to open your eyes or mind a bit. Funny, it's just as today, many of us make fun of the 1980s (I sure do!). Flat top and mohawk hair styles, awful music (the song "Jack & Diane" comes to mind), too many bleeding heart chick flick and corn ball movies.
Sympathies? I forgot to mention.........it was the 70s when I got my first of several CAB RIDES! It was also the era of the railfan friendly SCL where you could walk into a number of yards in Florida and be greeted with a friendly "Hi there". Wasn't just me. I spoke to railfans that got and photographed their cab rides on other roads. Too cool! That steadily disappeared in the 1980s (along with cabooses) as many of the friendly, WWII-era railroaders were quickly retiring and a much sterner, liability-worried generation of railroaders were taking over.
Nope, no need for sympathy, but thanks. As I stated, it's you "younger guys" that by no fault of your own, missed out on a lot of fun.
BTW: Bell bottoms? Hmmmmm; that was actually in fashion only a few years, then it went to straight leg. My jeans pretty much resembled today's and my hair was almost always cut short. Be careful with Wikipedia as it's been documented more than once that quite a bit of info found on the website is inaccurate.
Peace
It's nice when you can find a "niche" community. In this case it's N scalers modeling northeastern roads. I've been running with the PRR crowd for a while, but it's nice to expand my horizons a bit.
Seems the idea of adding an early Conrail era to my layout has gotten me completely re-energized in the hobby.
The downside is I'm a few short weeks away from packing up my layout in preperation for a house sale and move...
Nevertheless, I'll have this very small layout for a long time (probably the next 8 years until I can reach military retirement), meaning it would be with me for a full decade (having been constructed in 2006). This is a great way to keep that little 3' by 6'8" piece of Styrofoam real estsate interesting for 10 years.
Two sets of lineside structures (one set well-maintained with PRR signage, the other weatherbeaten or abandoned with PC signage) and two sets of automobiles would allow me to essentially operate two layouts, one at a time.
Stopped at the LHS on the way home from work today and bought myself this guy right here:
Nice one, Dave.
BTW: Don't forget that even after the Conrail creation, a number of ex-NYC cabooses in the jade green scheme lingered on for a couple of years.
I grew up during the 70's, too, so there are lot's of family pictures with the avocado green striped sofa, the Bicentennial-themed wallpaper, the basement clubroom with the Scan furniture (Remember Scan? It was Ikea before Ikea was...)
I learned how to parallel park in a Dodge Monaco... Not unlike docking a ship. And I recall the blood in the streets when gasoline went from 29 cents a gallon to 55.
My brother is three years older, so he got swept up in the disco era... I laid low until the Ramones, Devo and the B-52's hit the scene... No Jack and Diane for me, either, thank you very much.
The most garish and unpleasant icon of the decade for me, though, was this...
I mean, my GAWD, what were they thinking?!? I'll take a beat up old PC paint out any day!
Antonio,When the PC took over the NH, the PC "bulls" (RR police) started to chase off railfans in former NH territory where before, it was not a problem.
The NH was active in preserving their own history...the PC cut it up for scrap and threw it all in the dumpster in the 1970's. Know why there are no preserved DL109's anywhere? You can thank the PC for that.
Go back and read Trains mag from the 1970's. It wasn't a friendly time in the northeast on the RR's. Tough times.
For clarification (this is an edited post):
I started this thread to explore:
1. Adding another era to make my layout more interesting
2. The attraction to the trains of one's formative years
3. The modeling possibilities open to an early Conrail modeler (i.e., locos in 7 paint schemes, etc.)
The purpose was not to:
1. Ask anyone's permission.
2. Debate the merits/demerits of PC and how the latter should preclude anyone from wanting to model it.
So, Paul, again... Your objection has been noted. And overruled. I'm modeling Conrail and late PC. My wife may have soemthing to say about it, but alas, you don't!
Dave V.,1). You can buy jade green 'till the cows come home, paint GG-1's bright pink, or pretend the PC never died. It makes no difference to me. It's not what I would do, but that's my call.
2). So far, all I've said is that the PC should never have happened (which you agreed with), that there should have been two "Conrails" roughly along the lines of NYC and PRR (as in today), that my youth would be boring to model for me, that I find the 1970's depressing and I won't model that era, and that the PC was not exactly railfan friendly.
3). Not to put to fine a point on it, but at no point did I "object" to whatever you wanted to model, therefore there's nothing to be "noted", and nothing to be "overruled". Please don't put words in my mouth...I get into enough trouble with the things I actually do say. Thanks.
Paul,
Resistance is futile... See?
I guess my point of contention is that if you feel so negatively about it, why even bother to comment? That's the issue that comes up with WPF. I'm surprised you'd even stop by a thread marked "Penn Central." Were I you I'd probably have just driven past. But, as you pointed out, you're not. I'm excited about all of this, so I'm not looking for a downer.
My interest in all of this lies primarily in the very interesting equipment and weathering involved. People don't talk too fondly of the Depression, either, do they? Yet many people really enjoy modeling the 30s (i.e., George Sellios and countless narrow gaugers).
I can't really say I remember the 70s as well as I'd like (again, having been born in '74)... Maybe it's because I viewed them with the wonder of a child, whereby any train, no matter how dilapidated or defiled by peeling PC logos, seemed like an awesome machine to a very young me.
SpaceMouse wrote: Tom,I'm doing 1909 now. It has been a few years you know.
That's cool--that's somewhere around the builder's date of both my C-48 Consol and T-31 Ten-Wheeler, and they're both still doing yeoman local service. Just put a diamond stack on one of yours so we can film a train robbery, LOL! Right now I'm trying to adapt some WS figures to look somewhat like a Hollywood production crew so I can have an excuse to run my back-dated Roundhouse 2-8-0 and some turn-of the 20th century freight cars. After all, Hollywood filmed a lot of westerns on the "Rio Grande". Might as well film a few on mine.
Hey, it all works, LOL!
Dave Vollmer wrote: Paul3 wrote: Dave V.,1). You can buy jade green 'till the cows come home, paint GG-1's bright pink, or pretend the PC never died. It makes no difference to me. It's not what I would do, but that's my call.2). So far, all I've said is that the PC should never have happened (which you agreed with), that there should have been two "Conrails" roughly along the lines of NYC and PRR (as in today), that my youth would be boring to model for me, that I find the 1970's depressing and I won't model that era, and that the PC was not exactly railfan friendly.3). Not to put to fine a point on it, but at no point did I "object" to whatever you wanted to model, therefore there's nothing to be "noted", and nothing to be "overruled". Please don't put words in my mouth...I get into enough trouble with the things I actually do say. Thanks.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************Okay, fine...But if you despise PC and the 70s so much, I guess I'm not sure why you're participating in this thread. 'Cause you're being kind of a downer whether you mean to be or not.I'm excited about this transition for me. If you're not, that's your call. But please don't try to bring my thread down. You're quite free to start your own.
Paul3 wrote: Dave V.,1). You can buy jade green 'till the cows come home, paint GG-1's bright pink, or pretend the PC never died. It makes no difference to me. It's not what I would do, but that's my call.2). So far, all I've said is that the PC should never have happened (which you agreed with), that there should have been two "Conrails" roughly along the lines of NYC and PRR (as in today), that my youth would be boring to model for me, that I find the 1970's depressing and I won't model that era, and that the PC was not exactly railfan friendly.3). Not to put to fine a point on it, but at no point did I "object" to whatever you wanted to model, therefore there's nothing to be "noted", and nothing to be "overruled". Please don't put words in my mouth...I get into enough trouble with the things I actually do say. Thanks.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Okay, fine...
But if you despise PC and the 70s so much, I guess I'm not sure why you're participating in this thread. 'Cause you're being kind of a downer whether you mean to be or not.
I'm excited about this transition for me. If you're not, that's your call. But please don't try to bring my thread down. You're quite free to start your own.
Let me jump in here if I might--if we were to model nothing but railroads at the height of their historical prosperity, a lot of us would probably all be modeling nothing but the 1890's or the 1920's. Your decision to model a railroad that you remember growing up with is just fine in my book. Okay, let me get this out of the way right now--perhaps it was not the most prosperous time for the era you're choosing, but it's WHAT YOU REMEMBER.
I'm modeling WWII era. If I had chosen to model the Rio Grande ten or fifteen years earlier, I'd be modeling a railroad that was going in and out of recievership so fast you couldn't keep up with it. Sub-par trackage, locomotives too heavy for a lot of the mainline, really LOCAL traffic--a railroad that was still paying off WP debts--not a pretty sight at all. But I model WWII, because that's the era that I remember, and the tracks were being replaced as fast as they could, the rails were so shiny you had to blink if the sun was at the right angle, and a train crashing by every fifteen minutes.
I think we're COMFORTABLE modeling what we remember, whether it's the 'forties, 'eighties, or five years ago. It's probably what made the initial impression to cause us to BECOME model railroaders. So we can capture (or re-capture) that part of wonder. And when it really comes down to it, historically it doesn't really matter the financial condition of the road we choose to model.
Despite my somewhat facietous first post (which I meant in good humor) I'm really in YOUR camp, my friend! Go for it! Your terrific modeling skills will win out in the end, anyway.
I re-worded that post to be a little more diplomatic. That first draft was a little harsh to Paul. I know he feels strongly about his viewpoint. However...
When I get down to it I guess I don't hate any railroad so much that I'd start talking it down in someone else's thread. Sure, I kid about CSX, but I'm not out to get any thread about it.
Anyway, this is my fun thread about my new modeling direction. Anyone not holding a ticket to come along with me can get off at the next stop!
Dave Vollmer wrote: Tom,I re-worded that post to be a little more diplomatic. That first draft was a little harsh to Paul. I know he feels strongly about his viewpoint. However...When I get down to it I guess I don't hate any railroad so much that I'd start talking it down in someone else's thread. Sure, I kid about CSX, but I'm not out to get any thread about it.Anyway, this is my fun thread about my new modeling direction. Anyone not holding a ticket to come along with me can get off at the next stop!
Tickets all punched and I'm ready for the ride. Go for it!
Enjoy it! My first N scale engine was a PC GP30 when I was a teen. Dave - born in 74 - oy - that was the year I joined the Air Force
I am re-thinking the make up of my new layout - HO Reading mid-70's. I also have EL RS2, LV RS18 and such so there may be some BLUE engines sneaking in some time soon.
Go Air Force!
Dave V.,If you don't want public comments on your thoughts, don't post them on a public forum.
twhite wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: Tom,I'm doing 1909 now. It has been a few years you know. Chip--That's cool--that's somewhere around the builder's date of both my C-48 Consol and T-31 Ten-Wheeler, and they're both still doing yeoman local service. Just put a diamond stack on one of yours so we can film a train robbery, LOL! Right now I'm trying to adapt some WS figures to look somewhat like a Hollywood production crew so I can have an excuse to run my back-dated Roundhouse 2-8-0 and some turn-of the 20th century freight cars. After all, Hollywood filmed a lot of westerns on the "Rio Grande". Might as well film a few on mine. Hey, it all works, LOL!Tom
I know they did a lot of filming in your area--just south of your layout I believe--big tourist trap now--I forget the name. It wouldn't be stretch to yank them north a little.
Since I hijacked this thread earlier, I got possession of my basement. That means I can go back to my original dream of building the California Western in 1917. It means the demise of the Rock Ridge and Train City, I'm afraid.
Paul3 wrote: Dave V.,If you don't want public comments on your thoughts, don't post them on a public forum.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Honestly, man, the comment about "having a ticket to come along" was a joke, per the smiley emoticon.
I don't mind debate, but it's just frustrating that whenever the topic of PRR or PC comes up, you come in with the negative vibes. I know where you stand on PC and people who talk about how great PRR was. But, that's your opinion to which you're entitled.
Think about it this way; it's like you're talking smack about my favorite team. You have every right to do so, but you may expect I won't be all that happy with it.
But you're right... Because I posted it, you have every right to say what you need to.
I'm willing to negotiate a cease-fire if you are...
I look at it this way... You're at a bus stop in Harrisburg. A bus pulls up, and the sign board says "Pittsburgh", but you want to go to Philadelphia. So you get on the bus to Pittsburgh, and then complain that you're not going to Philadelphia for the whole trip.
Or you're on the Atlas Forum, which has separate rooms for HO and N scale. You're an HO guy, so you spend all your time on the N forum complaining about N scale.
Choose your battles.
On a lighter note...
Here's my new Conrail cabin in service on the PRR Middle Division:
Dave Vollmer wrote: On a lighter note...Here's my new Conrail cabin in service on the PRR Middle Division:
"Hey george, can we see over the Autoracks up front yet?"
"Uh... yeah..."
Well, Dave, as they say... "It's Your Railroad, Run What You Want!"
You better check that maintenance stencil, though... I think one of the dates is wrong for that road number.
Well, I took a shot at weathering that PC boxcar... ...and destroyed it.
I tried the Tom Mann white wash technique to fade the paint, only I put it on too thick. It looked like a frosted cake. I tried to remove the paint gently with some brush cleaner, with predictable results. The factory paint lifted right off.
I'm very, very, very angry right now.
EDIT:
I was using thinned PolyScale...
It's not like I've never weathered before. But I guess if it's a new technique I should try it out on a junk shell.
No way in heck I'm touching that Conrail cabin anytime soon.
Now...
My wife's not happy because my reaction was "buy another one." Even though it's a little off-prototype, the combo of white and black, NYC and PC-style lettering is very cool.
Turns out I have a Paypal balance due to some N scale boxes I sold, so I ordered a new one from N Scale Supply along with a Trainman Railbox car.
Huh-huh... I think I'll use a much more conservative, reversable technique on the next one!
Dave, if the factory paint lifted right off as you say, it sounds like you're headed in the right direction just the same. Certainly that would be the effect of rust eating away with a bit different paint ? Any chance you can post a pic or two to have others give ideas on what to do next ?
Ooooo, no... It looks horrible. I ended up with the white-wash half-stripped, and it just looks horrific.
Trust me, I know a junker when I see it.
I appreciate the offer for help. But this guy's out to pasture. Besides, I have a new one on the way (I have this bad habit of re-ordering stuff right away after I mess it up)...
The good news is, I bnow have a carcass to prectice on!
Or... better yet, I'll finish stripping off the bad wash, and then turn the car into a Conrail paint-out. Brilliant!
I need to get a camera and post some pics of my early "weathering" attempts. Im sure yours isnt that bad=)
That being said, a nice, easy way to get started in weathering is to do some very simple light drybrushing. Easy to learn and you can apply as much grime or as little as you like. \
Try it on some cheapies and get a feel for it. Light grey can look like dust, red on roof panels to simulate rust. You can do an awful lot with just drybrush. Still my most used weathering technique.
Dave Vollmer wrote:Huh-huh... I think I'll use a much more conservative, reversable technique on the next one!
A blowtorch?
Maybe it's a sign Dave -- get out of the PC era while you still can . Maybe you should go for the factory paint being stripped to bare (rusty) metal. Or maybe the repair guys replaced a ruined panel with a sheet of galvanized steel as a quick 'n dirty temp fix til the car meets with the scrapper's torch (say someone really botched loading it with a forklift or something).
NeO6874 wrote: Maybe it's a sign Dave...
Maybe it's a sign Dave...
That was my FIRST thought!
Naw, just means I need to work on my technique. I have a couple of old Atlas and MP boxcars(foobie cars in foobie schemes I have no intention of running) who are about to donate their bodies to art!
This picture popped up on "newest" when I veiwed RP. This is what your going for Dave, right?
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=231210&nseq=29
I hope you next try at weathering the PC boxcar will work out this time. can't wait to see pictures.
WCfan wrote: This picture popped up on "newest" when I veiwed RP. This is what your going for Dave, right?http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=231210&nseq=29 I hope you next try at weathering the PC boxcar will work out this time. can't wait to see pictures.
Uh, where's the nosedoor? Please tell me they just left it open, but I think I can see what looks like an unused hinge...
Dave Vollmer wrote: NeO6874 wrote: Maybe it's a sign Dave...That was my FIRST thought!Naw, just means I need to work on my technique. I have a couple of old Atlas and MP boxcars(foobie cars in foobie schemes I have no intention of running) who are about to donate their bodies to art!
By coincidence, I answered this to Lee on the other thread.
SpaceMouse wrote:AS for the PRR Indiana Branch....I went to my local NMRA meet t day, and I swear the universe is conspiring against me. I met the local PRR resident historian and I ran into a guy who took pictures of the area and are used as a primary source for a two volume book on the Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Rochester (which was bought up by the B & O) anyway, he has photos of the building I was missing source data on. I also came home with 4 pieces of HO rolling stock for the PRR including a Funaro and Camerlengo PRR covered hopper in my period and a Bowser N5 caboose that I won as a door prize. I took it as a sign that I need to work around my perceived limitation and put off tearing it down for a while. I also won a Rix N-scale 150' overpass, but I'll be danged if I can find a figure a place for it on the N-scale office layout.
AS for the PRR Indiana Branch....I went to my local NMRA meet t day, and I swear the universe is conspiring against me. I met the local PRR resident historian and I ran into a guy who took pictures of the area and are used as a primary source for a two volume book on the Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Rochester (which was bought up by the B & O) anyway, he has photos of the building I was missing source data on.
I also came home with 4 pieces of HO rolling stock for the PRR including a Funaro and Camerlengo PRR covered hopper in my period and a Bowser N5 caboose that I won as a door prize. I took it as a sign that I need to work around my perceived limitation and put off tearing it down for a while.
I also won a Rix N-scale 150' overpass, but I'll be danged if I can find a figure a place for it on the N-scale office layout.
By the way. I answered your post as well. There's a picture there I want you to see.
I can understand a Penn Central boxcar looking like a distressed green; probably exx-New York Central. But more of a mint green than the strong green in the model boxcar.
But in the photo, the real boxcar looks blue!
Did either NYC or Penna experiment with powder blue???
Or perhaps the color is not quite true on the slide or photo????
al
Did we really have to bring the real problems into this arguement? Course' Penn Central was a poor operation, but one heckuva cool one! Crappy power, crappy everthing! But, to me, thats just plain cool, and I would definately model the PC (early Conrail I suppose) if given the room or money to. I cant really believe people actually arguing about what Dave should or should not do. Go with it Dave, all crappy railroads were neat, just look at the Rock Island in its last few years. Whats not to like about junk power?
Alec
"When Good Pennsy Modelers Go Bad: The Dave Vollmer Story."
In all seriousness, modelling the faded glory of a railroad in decline is an interesting challenge. I can't wait to see Dave go grunge.
I'm in the same boat you are. For a while now, I've been modeling my beloved Missouri Pacific circa 1957, long before I was born (in 1971). I guess I had a "railfan romance" with the MoPac's early diesel paint scheme, and a deep interest in the history, politics, movies, and automobiles of the late 1950s.
But something funny happened. I started to become sappy and nostalgic for the Missouri Pacific of my youth--that is, late 1970s/early 1980s. I found myself reminiscing about the Jenks blue GP38-2s, B23-7s, and U30Cs. My first cab ride was in MoPac GP38-2 #2242 (an ex-RI unit), and I'll never forget it. (That's something else to think about--if we find it interesting to model run down railroads, how about the Rock Island? Probably rivals the PC for poor track and equipment.)
So I've switched eras--I now model 1982, but still have a lot of 1957-era equipment laying around. I'm finding it too darn difficult to part with the Alco PA's.
For me, the change was fueled by nostalgia. Plus, having a kid and wanting to show her what railroading was like in MY youth was compelling (she'll grow up in a completely different world when it comes to railroading.) But something else pushed me forward, too. It happened at a train show a couple years ago when I saw some kid (OK, maybe he was 19, not a kid) point to a U23B on a diorama and say, "Those old locomotives look cool." OLD?! They don't seem that old to me, but hey, I'm not 19 either. So I really began to play with the idea of modeling stuff as I remember it, which seemed a whole lot more exciting than tracking down photos and information to help me model the world before I even existed. Utilizing my own memory and direct observation pretty much trumped the idea of scavenging for a limited number of photos to figure out how to accurately pull off 1957. I could do '82--and probably do it better--than '57.
I think this is what happens when you get older. You point to the layout and say, "Back in my day, those old U Boats smoked and chugged like nothin' else. And I walked to school in the winter. Through twenty feet of snow. Barefoot. Uphill. Both ways."
Dave Vollmer wrote:For the record I was born in 1974.
I had my first taste of railfanning and then got my first train set in 1974. I was about 12-13 years old at the time. I added to the set by buying a few more pieces of track, a couple switches, a couple more locos, and some more freight cars. I can remember buying a PC 40' box car back then. I really liked the PC turquoise green.
About 30 years later I acquired a few PC freight cars and I decided to get a few PC locos too. I got a pair of Life-Like Alco S-1s, a pair of Stewart Baldwin DS-4-4-1000s, and a pair of Atlas RSD-4s. I model the year 1974 in HO scale, so PC fits into the scheme of things.
I remember the wealth of new "RR Logos" rumbling daily through the middle of town on the elevated 4-track mainline after the 1968 merger.
So, there are (4) neat reasons to consider the Penn Central...
[1] Penn Central
[2] Pennsylvania
[3] New York Central
[4] New Haven
There are dozens of other reasons, too...
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
Yes, but I plan to take it a step further...
1980 Conrail.
Then you have all 6 bankrupts plus predecessors...
In fact, I've seen photographs of PRR cars in original PRR paint with roofwalks in service as late as 1986!
I plan to model one, actually. The Atlas N scale Trainman 50' double-door boxcar comes painted in the PRR's last scheme and can be modified to appear as a PRR X56B in service in the Conrail era. Replace the thick plastic running board with an etched brass one, make the roof look like galvanized metal, and then weather the car. Add an ACI bar code, wheel inspection dits, consolidated lube plates, and some re-stenciled data and boom! A quick, inexpensive legacy car.
Dave, don't worry about the anti-PC folks. Even though I don't really remember PC (I was born in '76, along with Conrail) there were still plenty of black diesels running around Pittsburgh into the 1980s. I remember them, and the Montour coal trains (not far from my house...close enough I could hear them at night). As such, I model the PC, with a little Montour and P&LE thrown in. I got started with PC, mainly because I liked parts of the NYC, but also parts of the PRR.
If you *really* want to have fun, do one of the ex-Rio Grande F units PC bought. Former PRR E units with worms also drive people nuts LOL
Welcome to the dark side, and enjoy the modeling. Oh, and if you need decals, the Penn Central RR Historical Society can help you out :)
Quote: emdgp92
http://pc.smellycat.com/pics/equip/pc754_712_1648dr.jpg http://pc.smellycat.com/pics/equip/pc721dr.jpg
Dave Vollmer wrote:Yes, but I plan to take it a step further...1980 Conrail.Then you have all 6 bankrupts plus predecessors...
Yikes!
Even more reasons for modeling this era!