Joe--
Though I've had similar encounters of brass locos 'disassembling' themselves after time, for me it's never happened with the older Japanese brass, but more commonly with the earlier and middle period Korean brass.
I had a Korean-made Custom Brass Rio Grande M-75 Mountain that began shuffling off detail parts about a year after I bought it new--and it got to be no fun following it down the track scooping up things it was shedding, let me tell you. It had a very underpowered Sagami can, and the drivers were sprung with--get this--GUITAR wire! That baby took a LOT of time and effort to get running properly, and it still isn't up to the running qualities of, say, my much older Japanese PFM Rio Grande 2-8-2.
Actually, my early Akane and PFM and Westside brass have held up remarkably well, and I run them quite regularly.
But I certainly agree with you about having MJ hold out for that PSC M-4. PSC's quality and running characteristics are just top-notch, and they're built SOLID! As I said earlier, my PSC F-81 is built like a Sherman tank, runs like a Swiss watch and hauls like a team of oxen. I can only imagine what that M-4 must be like!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
dinwitty wrote: twhite wrote: mj3200 wrote: I noticed that that Alkane listed on Ebay just went for $432. Makes me ponder how much that would have cost when first bought.MJ--It went for $455. Five dollars over my final bid, GRRRRR!!! Oh, well--I understand that the seller has a really fine reputation, so whoever got it, if they are willing to put in a few bucks extra for some newer super-detail castings, should have himself a pretty fine running loco. To answer your question, when I bought my first Akane in 1964, it ran $109.00 MSRP. Pretty hefty for those times, especially when a lot of other brass was running between $50-85. My second Akane ran me $450 used about eight years ago from Peach Creek shops, and my latest ran me $225, simply because it needed a lot of rebuilding and it was a swap meet and the seller was a really NICE guy and we both knew from the condition of the loco (at that time) that it was a more than fair price. Just got in the PSC castings for it, and it's turning out to be a really handsome loco. But that PSC in the red box looks like their latest run (same red box my 2-year old Rio Grande 2-10-2 came in), and from the photos, I'm really DROOLING! Best of luck to you--that's just one HUNKER of a beautiful loco!Tom give me your detail reccomendations to add from ps.
twhite wrote: mj3200 wrote: I noticed that that Alkane listed on Ebay just went for $432. Makes me ponder how much that would have cost when first bought.MJ--It went for $455. Five dollars over my final bid, GRRRRR!!! Oh, well--I understand that the seller has a really fine reputation, so whoever got it, if they are willing to put in a few bucks extra for some newer super-detail castings, should have himself a pretty fine running loco. To answer your question, when I bought my first Akane in 1964, it ran $109.00 MSRP. Pretty hefty for those times, especially when a lot of other brass was running between $50-85. My second Akane ran me $450 used about eight years ago from Peach Creek shops, and my latest ran me $225, simply because it needed a lot of rebuilding and it was a swap meet and the seller was a really NICE guy and we both knew from the condition of the loco (at that time) that it was a more than fair price. Just got in the PSC castings for it, and it's turning out to be a really handsome loco. But that PSC in the red box looks like their latest run (same red box my 2-year old Rio Grande 2-10-2 came in), and from the photos, I'm really DROOLING! Best of luck to you--that's just one HUNKER of a beautiful loco!Tom
mj3200 wrote: I noticed that that Alkane listed on Ebay just went for $432. Makes me ponder how much that would have cost when first bought.
I noticed that that Alkane listed on Ebay just went for $432.
Makes me ponder how much that would have cost when first bought.
MJ--
It went for $455. Five dollars over my final bid, GRRRRR!!! Oh, well--I understand that the seller has a really fine reputation, so whoever got it, if they are willing to put in a few bucks extra for some newer super-detail castings, should have himself a pretty fine running loco.
To answer your question, when I bought my first Akane in 1964, it ran $109.00 MSRP. Pretty hefty for those times, especially when a lot of other brass was running between $50-85. My second Akane ran me $450 used about eight years ago from Peach Creek shops, and my latest ran me $225, simply because it needed a lot of rebuilding and it was a swap meet and the seller was a really NICE guy and we both knew from the condition of the loco (at that time) that it was a more than fair price. Just got in the PSC castings for it, and it's turning out to be a really handsome loco.
But that PSC in the red box looks like their latest run (same red box my 2-year old Rio Grande 2-10-2 came in), and from the photos, I'm really DROOLING!
Best of luck to you--that's just one HUNKER of a beautiful loco!
give me your detail reccomendations to add from ps.
Dinwitty--
I'd better tell you first of all, that I detail my Yellowstones a bit differently than a Missabe prototype in one very specific way--I substitute a visored Pyle-style headlight for the NP-style that Missabe used on the M-3/4's. The reason being is that since I model primarily Rio Grande steam--and Rio Grande borrowed the Missabe Yellowstones for several winters during WWII when the Great Lakes ore docks were down--I simply added the Yellowstones to my Rio Grande steam fleet as the 'never-was' L-140 3900 series.
Now, with that bit of fanciful fiction out of the way, the major changes I make are pretty much to the front of the boiler, and are fully within Missabe practice I remove the Worthington FWH system and pump from the top and front of the boiler and substitute an Elesco bundle-style (as was done on many of the M-3/4 locos). I use a PSC #32187 'oversize' Elesco bundle, which has a contoured bottom that fits right on and covers up the hole left by removing the Worthington FWH on the top of the boiler. Then on the front of the boiler, I remove the Akane twin pumps and substitute PSC #3449 twin pumps, which are more detailed (Cal-Scale also makes these pumps). To do this, you have to detach the front of the smokebox itself, because all of the boiler-face details are held on by inside screws. Then I remove the Worthington FWH pump and substitute a #3511 Elesco pump centered right below the smokebox door. None of this requires soldering, BTW, unless you want to. I use a gap-filling CA to attach all of the brass detail parts, which works well for me (though it could cause some extra parts falling off if you ever need to strip and repaint the loco).
And that's pretty much it for my Yellowstones. In the future, I'm thinking of adding brake shoes and some extra piping (though the Akanes are pretty close, especially if you look at prototype photos of the M-3/4's). I'm NOT a super-detail freak (though I sure admire those who are), I'm more into the general 'impression' of these locos. For me, its the general operation qualities of these handsome beasties, and making sure they run smooth and powerful. So far, my little stable of these locos have been running VERY nicely, thank you. Granted, the Akanes do NOT have the superior details of the newer PSC's, but they're serving me well. And the newer PSC castings on the front somehow give the rest of the loco a certain 'look' that at least for me, improves it quite a bit.
Hope this helps a little.
$75 in 1959. With inflation, that's probably not less than $432 today, with a 50-cent burger going for $3 to $5 now.
Mark
markpierce wrote: mj3200 wrote: I noticed that that Alkane listed on Ebay just went for $432. Makes me ponder how much that would have cost when first bought.$75 in 1959. With inflation, that's probably not less than $432 today, with a 50-cent burger going for $3 to $5 now.Mark
Mark--
Dang, and at 19 I could have had that loco for the price of 3 absolutely USELESS college textbooks on Health and Safety, Psychology 1-A and pre-Plate Tectonics Historical Geology, LOL!
twhite wrote: markpierce wrote: mj3200 wrote: I noticed that that Alkane listed on Ebay just went for $432. Makes me ponder how much that would have cost when first bought.$75 in 1959. With inflation, that's probably not less than $432 today, with a 50-cent burger going for $3 to $5 now.MarkMark--Dang, and at 19 I could have had that loco for the price of 3 absolutely USELESS college textbooks on Health and Safety, Psychology 1-A and pre-Plate Tectonics Historical Geology, LOL! Tom
where are my textbooks... stashed in an outside building. Wheres my model railroad stuff? guesss.s......
The books are rather useless to me now...
But the MR back issues and other mags are usefull...and so are in the train room... (yay which was really better....)
I bought an Akane Yellowstone on eBay several years ago (can't recall what I paid for it) and it's just been sitting on the shelf. Then through word of mouth I found a guy who converted the motor to a NWSL unit and added a Tsunami decoder with LED headlamp and tender backup light. OMG! What a tremendous locomotive. Living in Minnesota I travel to Duluth every chance I get to look at the refurbished Yellowstone in the old Duluth depot. Just to stand in the cab and look into that huge firebox is awesome. Here's a couple of photos of my favorite loco:
the goat
GN--
Those photos--in a word, DROOL!
Yes, those old Akanes can be made into terrific running locos. Glad you got yours resuscitated. I popped a NWSL motor into my oldest one, and it glides along just beautifully. I'll probably re-motor the other two this summer, though the older open-frame motors are doing okay (but I'm not DCC, mind you). First thing I do with them is fit them with NWSL Universals between the first and second set of drivers--smooths them out on curves very nicely.
Glad yours is no longer 'on the shelf'.
Just a thought....
2-8-8-4's were named "Yellowstones" by Northern Pacific, the first railroad to use them.
4-8-4's were named "Northerns" by Northern Pacific, the first railroad to use them.
Yet it appears there's no chance (outside of brass) of either of these engines ever being available as HO models. 20 version of UP Northerns, yes...and a dozen UP challengers...and (so far) a half-dozen SP 4-8-4 "Daylights".
Thanks for all the advice fellas. I decided to go for this PSM Crown copy. So here she is hot foot from Denver to the UK in 2 days! I have got to say I'm almost at a loss for words with the detail. By the bye what's the lubrication regime on this. It's my first brass so pardon my ignorance.
In a word--OHMYGAW!! That is one incredibly handsome locomotive you've got there.
As to lubrication--it's pretty simple. All you need to do is remove the gear-box covers on the bottom of the locomotive, add a few drops of compatable gear grease (I use LaBelle #104), put the gearbox covers back on and run it in for about thirty minutes. I usually do about 1/3 throttle. You should have a pretty smooth running locomotive.
Boy, that's a BEAUTY!!
My lubrication regal especially on steamers is usually this.
regardless, I always use plastic compatible, but I know my Winton 2-6-6-6 wouldnt need it, allll metal.
I get the gear grease on all gears, even brand new. A new engine may be "tight" in all its fittings and need running in to loosen up parts of friction binding and any manufacturing kinks.
Next I use regular oil on the motor and bearing joints. Then ALL siderod connections get a light oil lube even the pistons. Then also wheel bearings and if sprung drivers, grease on the slide bearings also. Tender fine also.
Great looking engine there, you won't be dissapointed.
http://www.qtm.net/dinwitty/rr/DMIRclip.wav
I said I would post up an audio clip of one of these babies.
I know copyright laws, clips are allowable, full works not allowable. Like any library.
Very short bit about a meg in size and a few seconds in length.
From the North Jersey Recording Fast Freight on the Nickel Plate. Has NKP and GTW also.
Don't you just love that 'steamboat' whistle? One thing I noticed on my Missabe video--and I don't know if it's the sound quality of the recording or not--but those HUGE locos ran with a very soft, almost 'melodic' chuff. I was surprised, because from their size, I expected all Heck to be breaking loose from their cylinders. As far as I'm concerned, those big, beautiful ladies were the epitome of smooth-running articulated steam.
Oh, BTW, here's a picture of my latest, the "Basket Case." Still needs cosmetic work, but the mechanism runs so smooth and sweet that it amazes me for a 50+ year old model.
looking good, you gave it a cowlick.... :D
That recording has #230 tugging 180 ore empties upgrade, in the background is a foghorn blasting off from time to time. The whole sound scene is totally awesome, #230 comes by double exhausting each stroke and doesnt skip a beat. For the only recording I experienced of this engine, its totally says what these beasts are all about.
Between this, O Winston Links recordings, F. Lee Jaques artistic effects on a layout, I want my line to carry the dramatic effect to the fullest.
All 3 of them have 'cowlicks', LOL! For some strange reason, I'm addicted to those Elesco 'bundle' Feedwater heaters instead of the Worthington. Don't ask me why . Actually, I think that the PSC 'oversized' Elescos are almost TOO oversized, but I kind of like the effect.
Tom,
I'm a few weeks into owning the PCM M4 now and after some teething troubles with shorts - notably the rear tender stairs were slightly bent and shorting on one set of turnouts. I am delighted with it. I have wanted a model of one of these since I saw one IRL in 1989. I can remember sitting in the cab and being amazed by how much room there was. I must look out a picture that I'm sure I still have somewhere.
The worrying thing is that now that my brass virginity is gone there are so many other lovely things out there to be had, and if one thinks how much a locomotive was in the 80's - from memory - whilst expensive they aren't really blindingly so. Roll on the Key Imports AC-9, oh and I'll have a 20th Century Hudson and.............
Again thanks to everyone for their advice.
Jonathan
mj3200 wrote:Tom,I'm a few weeks into owning the PCM M4
I'm a few weeks into owning the PCM M4
Don't confuse PRECISION SCALE CO. with PCM. PCM stants for PRECISION CRAFT MODELS - founded around 2005, whereas PRECISION SCALE CO. is importing models since around 1980. Their initials are PSC.
Concerning possible problems on your model: make sure that all rods and valve gears don't bind and have the room they need also when the wheels take their full side play, check if all crankpin screws are tight - sometimes they are not! (as well as other screws) Make sure that that the drawbar screw is tight for reliable transport of current. See if the tender vestibule works freely and is properly insulated (because it touches the rear of the cab). Sometimes some pipe detail at the engine's rear or/ and the tender's front are long enough that they touch each other on curves. Then these should be shortened CAREFULLY. In some cases it may be sufficient to bend them to some degree.
One thing I wonder if I understand it right: -a tender step is that low that it contacts the rail ata turnouts? Could you post a photo?
There are several things one should look at on any brass model, especially on the more complex ones as the articulateds are. But when you do - and all is ok - you will have countless hours of pleasure with the model.
may have had an angledown somewhere in the metalwork, nothing a needlenose plier tweak couldnt fix. Mine is runing just fab.
The engines had an all weather cab, totally enclosed, for those frigid winters, even with a warm boiler you needed that. Minus zero weather kicks into an open cab pretty quick.
Congratulations on that incredibly beautiful PSC Yellowstone. And I'm glad it's running as well as it looks--of course, being a PSC model, I wouldn't expect otherwise, their craftsmanship is just superb! I was just thinking, LOL, that for the price of my three Akanes, I could just about AFFORD one of those exquisite PSC's. Oh, well--
And now that you've lost your brass 'virginity', there's a whole world out there for you as far as hard-to-find models of locos you might want. However, and let me WARN you about this--you just might find that you need to hone a lot of 'tinkering' skills with some of them. With some brass models, it's the POTENTIAL in the locomotive, not necessarily what you take out of the box. Brass is easy to work with, and because of its 'girth', it's notoriously forgiving. I'm very proud of most of my brass locos, and I've had to 'tinker' with my share of them to get them to run the way I want, but it CAN be done, and the result is really satisfying.
And don't fall for the old and tired stories you might hear that we who love brass just collect them and put them in cases to look at. We RUN them. They EARN that money we spend on them, by God!!
dinwitty wrote: looking good, you gave it a cowlick.... :D
dinwitty--
Just had to show you. Put Rio Grande L-140 #3911 through the paint shop last week.
Okay, it's not Missabe, but I've already told you that, right? According to my 'history', the Rio Grande bought 15. That means I only need 12 more, LOL!
twhite wrote: dinwitty wrote: looking good, you gave it a cowlick.... :D dinwitty--Just had to show you. Put Rio Grande L-140 #3911 through the paint shop last week. Okay, it's not Missabe, but I've already told you that, right? According to my 'history', the Rio Grande bought 15. That means I only need 12 more, LOL!Tom
ready to join the Big Boy club? rofl
BIG BOY club???? With three of these big Hunkers, why should I NEED to, LOL?
I dont know a great amount about brass nor about DMIR in particular but I do believe that the following DMIR Yellowstone models were produced in HO brass - the ones underlined and in bold print can be confirmed as they are in my collection and are believed to be in original livery.. Even then and certainly in cases where I do not have the model I am open to correction on the data below.
United Toby DMIR M4 unpainted about 25 made in 1959 and again in in 1960 - the ones I have ALL are fitted with incorrect spoked wheels (inc one still sealed in its "plastic" bag so I am confident this was how they left the factory). This lets the model down...
Fulgurex DMIR M4 #221 black - model as above inc incorrect spoked wheels but factory painted for Fulgurex Europe - advertised in Fulgurex catalogue around early 1960s
Akane DMIR M4 unpainted made between 1959 and 1967 - imported by Akane or by Gem Imperial catalogue no AK-107 or IM-107? (Gem = sprung drivers) Robust models which could make a great model if you take the trouble to add the necessary detail and fit a can motor.
Also model imported by Aristocraft in 1959 followed by another imported by International in 1960 made by Akane
Westside Samhongsa DMIR M4 unpainted (Elesco or Worth FWH) with caboose 1980? model seems typical of early Samhongsa ie lot of detail but not always well made.
Tenshodo catalogue no 175 DMIR M3 #227 grey (Uncle Daves recently had a grey Tenshodo M3 #225) very small run maybe only 11 - Model looks like an M4 to me..
Tenshodo catalogue no 173 DMIR M4 #232 black - again not a large run maybe only 49 1983/1984 I have two #232 but BrassModelTrains Guide quotes #226 - the usual excellent workmanship and paint finish that one expects from Tenshodo
PSC Samhongsa M4 - orange box - coasting drive - working light - probably 150 produced in 1993 - incredible models with a lot of detail but need careful handling
15466-1 #230 Worth FWH black
15466-2 ?
15466-3 #230 Worth FWH grey
15468-1 ?
15468-2 ?
15468-3 #235 #236 Elesco FWH grey
Iron Horse Hobbies (Crown - in gold box) also Brother Brass - 125 produced in 1997?
17212-1 M3 #220 #221 #227 Worthington FWH black 7 produced?
17212-2 M3 #221 #222 Worthington FWH grey 20 produced?
17214-1 M3 #220 #226 Elesco FWH black 7 produced?
17214-2 M3 #224 #225 #227 Elesco FWH grey 23 produced?
17216-1 M4 #228 #230 Worth FWH black 4 produced?
17216-2 M4 #228 #232 Worth FWH grey 24 produced?
17218-1 M4 #233 #234 #236 Elesco FWH black 7 produced?
17218-2 M4 #233 to #237 Elesco FWH grey not more than 33 produced?
17218-3 M4 #236
re-run 2004 - I know nothing about this run and cannot compare with above models
17854-1 M3 #223 #227 Elesco FWH black
17854-2 M3 #224 #226 Elesco FWH grey
17856-1 M4 #235 #237 Elesco FWH black
17856-2 M4 #233 #236 Elesco FWH grey
Havenlane--
I'd be curious as to the running qualities of the models you have in your collection. Including the incorrect spoked wheel models. They seem to be a 'rara avis' in the current brass market, at least as far as I can ascertain. Perhaps even more so than the elusive Westside.
Do you perhaps have photos of them that you could share with the rest of we Yellowstone fans?
Let me check out the Spring 2008 Brass Model Trains Price & Data Guide concerning DM&IR Yellowstones.,,,,
PSC coasting drives are valued at $2500. (I'd never never get a coasting-drive loco for all the problems I've heard about 'em.)
Non-coasting PSCs go for about $1,650.
The WMCs are valued at a $1000.
The Gem (Akane) models for $700.
The factory painted PFM/Tenshodos go for $2400.
The PFM Crowns are valued at $4,500. OUCH! I don't dare touch one of those.
Hi Havenlane ,
I have been looking for a Toby DM&IR Yellowstone with the incorrect spoked drivers ... would you be interested in selling one from your collection ?
Thanks , VintageBrass
I noticed that this thread has been resurrected. Since then, there WILL be a 2-8-8-4 in plastic available from Bachmann in October. Okay, it's not an M-3/4, it's the B&O EM-1, but at least it's a 'commerical' Yellowstone at last.
Saw it at the NMRA Convention here in Sacramento last month, and if it runs as well as it looks, it should be a big hit for steam fans. And knowing Bachmann's propensity for add/subtract details, it wouldn't surprise me if later on they put on a Missabe superstructure to the mechanism. I think all they'd have to do is a new boiler/cab configuration, some different pilot details and add a Centipede tender.
Wouldn't that be nice?
Not to sway the subject, but I have a PSC-Iron Horse Models, big Connie, & it is just incredible. can't say enough about it. For me, it is just the right size, as articulateds are a bit big for my modeling endeavors. I hope you all feel the enjoyment & reward that is with the models you have. It's a pretty nice feeling to admire them in one's own home.. a pretty good feeling..