I model logging in the 1920's in California. Although logging of the Giant Redwood trees had ended, visitors love to see the huge trees on my logging cars. What could be worse than that?
I model several interesting aspects of the area and industry:
1) A "meadow" that was actually a clear cut region 10 years earlier ... lots of small trees and brush and lots of big stumps
2) A region of forest damaged by a forest fire
3) Huge piles of debris and lots of stumps in the areas where logging had occurred
4) Hunters and fishermen
If I just modeled nice trees in a park-like setting that would be poor modeling and would not paint an accurate picture. So, I think my modeling tells a story of the time and place, with warts and stumps and all ...
www.oakhurstrailroad.com
"Oakhurst Railroad" on Facebook
You want an potential exestensial crisis? I'm a moderate leftist and I model and railfan one of (if not THE) worst-managed, antiquated, hostile, worst-managed, unfriendly, skin-flinty, worst-managed, unpopular, and worst-managed railroads around today (did I mention they were the worst-managed, too?). Heck, on of their locos is in my avatar.
snagletooth wrote: Well, there's always that guy who modeled Michael Waltrip's Bristol car. . Couldn't you that with German equipment.
Well, there's always that guy who modeled Michael Waltrip's Bristol car. . Couldn't you that with German equipment.
"Just sign the big parts"
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Danger is exciting. Awesome power almost overwhelming. We react to that.
Humans see challenge and rise: injustices to be righted fought for and oppressions to be overthrown-- casting ourselves into danger for ideology, for love, for adventure, for faith, for patriotism, for self-fulfillment and even out of sheer necessity for survival. Such things are always a part of our story.
ArtOfRuin wrote:You want an potential exestensial crisis? I'm a moderate leftist and I model and railfan one of (if not THE) worst-managed, antiquated, hostile, worst-managed, unfriendly, skin-flinty, worst-managed, unpopular, and worst-managed railroads around today (did I mention they were the worst-managed, too?). Heck, on of their locos is in my avatar.'Nuff said.
'Nuff said.
You forgot "Worst-Managed..."
Alex
I'm really not too sure of the point of the thread. If I look up the definition of "existential", I'm not sure it fits the context of the opening post. Perhaps you can explain it better. It appears that the word is being used for "fault finding" instead of "being in a time or a place" which is my understanding of the word.
A model railroad, in my opinion, is much more than a collection of miniature trains running on miniature tracks. Each model railroader is creating his/her own little world in which the model trains play a central role.
Hauling coal is part of the world. My railroad receives coal at the coke ovens, and in turn my coke is transported to the steel mill. A steel mill is also a dirty, dangerous workplace.
Regardless, happy model railroading.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
If you truly are an old school liberal and a libertarian then just ad a IT industry on your layout. Then the market will sort it self out when all the coal miners reeducate them self, their children and the general society to take advantage of the lack of skilled labour. The mine will then respond by making the jobs safer and higher paid and everyone is a winner. That is if you are a real libertarian that believe in the effect of a free market!
Magnus(who is a libertarian and have no problems with coal mines)
P.S Please note that the things written above is meant to be a joke, getting upset or thinking that I mean anything of it will not lead to anything good. Take care!
Magnus
I hate to throw a dose of reality in to all of this liberal hand-wringing but I found this in an article in USA Today about coal mining:
The average West Virginia miner made about $64,000 last year, according to Workforce West Virginia, part of the state's commerce department. That's more than twice the $31,000 average income for all industries in the state. Hall knows of one bulldozer operator at a coal mine who made, after bonuses and overtime, $118,000 last year.
Contrary to the "Coal Miner's Daughter" stereotype, most coal miners (at least in the U.S.) are well trained, well paid and know the risks they are taking.
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
One question the Layout Design Special Interest Group has entertained has been "do you model it the way it really was, or do you model it the way you *wish* it had been?"
For example, modeling the south in the early part of the 20th century, with the Jim Crowe laws ... blacks had different restrooms, different drinking fountains ... etc.
Right or wrong, it was a part of our history, so to be accurate, you model it as it was. The LD SIG doesn't see it as glorifying anything. If anything, it's a reminder of how much things have changed -- *for the better*.
The LD SIG recently had an article on how to correctly model a layout set in the Jim Crowe time period. I found it fascinating and educational to see the extent to which segregation had occured ...
This, I believe, is a good example of what the OP is getting at.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
jfugate wrote: One question the Layout Design Special Interest Group has entertained has been "do you model it the way it really was, or do you model it the way you *wish* it had been?" For example, modeling the south in the early part of the 20th century, with the Jim Crowe laws ... blacks had different restrooms, different drinking fountains ... etc. Right or wrong, it was a part of our history, so to be accurate, you model it as it was.The LD SIG recently had an article on how to correctly model a layout set in the Jim Crowe time period.This, I believe, is a good example of what the OP is getting at.
Right or wrong, it was a part of our history, so to be accurate, you model it as it was.
The LD SIG recently had an article on how to correctly model a layout set in the Jim Crowe time period.
This discussion came up during a thread about graffiti quite recently.
I for one think that we do no service to the past by ignoring it or trying to correct it in our models. We do not need burning crosses on our layouts but to have a African American porter on a Pullman sleeper seems alright to me.
I do not like TV shows that depict for example the American (in the 1800's)west as a nice place where whites, blacks and Chinese lived together in harmony and their was no problems what so ever with racial issues. History should be as it was even when we do not like it.
That said we do not need to indulge in it for fun either, we should try do balance things out.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE wrote:A lot of railroads made and still makes a living by hauling coal.Coal is needed for steel production,coke, electricity etc..Rail is the only economical way to move coal from the mine to market,river,lake or ocean port.
Quite correct! In fact, I remember reading a while back where an environmentalist group joined forces with NS to block the construction of a coal "pipeline" through the mountains of West Virginia stating that the existing rail lines, which were already hauliing coal, had less of an environmental impact than would creating the new pipeline.
bearman wrote:It has struck me, being a knee jerk, bleeding heart liberal with some Jeffersonian democrat and libertarian thrown in for leavening, that there is a dark side to model railroading...for example, coal mining trains. Lots of modelers go through massive amounts of money, time, energy etc. to get that coal hauling raiload set in Appalachia just right. Books are read...aerial photos are consulted...questions are asked and then there is a prototype model rr constructed and operated in a dedicated room. However, that prototype railroad is hauling coal mined by miners in one of the poorest areas of the country, under working conditions that are horrific for most people, yet the model glorifies the prototype. Does this matter?
My layout might be one of the last places on earth the PC police have not gotten to yet. My layout is set in the 1950s before political correctness had taken over and people were still responsible for making their own decisions as to how they would lead their lives. I have cigarette ads plastered liberally throughout my layout, and beer and liquor ads to. My steamers are all coal burning, belching behomeths. The region I model means they would have burned cleaner anthracite but that was an economic issue, not a political one. All of my train crews are male, not because that is how I believed it should be but because that is the way it was. My cars are all gas guzzlers typical of the day when gas was cheap and nobody fretted about CO2 levels. (My first car was a 1960 Olds 88 that got about 8 mph). My structures are all weathered, some heavily, reflecting the effects of the lenient air quality controls of the day. I only have a few water features on the layout but to the best my knowledge, the EPA has never tested the water quality and that is the way I want it.
It's amazing with all the hazards in the environment back then that any of us boomers are still alive. Somehow most of us managed to survive are doing quite well.
I had been shying away from this thread, but I feel I need to say something, which hopefully isn't too political.
When I was active in Civil War Reenacting, I always played Union. This was a personal choice, based on my family history (all my relatives fought for Pennsylvania or New York).
But the question always came up regarding the Confederate reenactors. Many spectators, especially at reenactments in the northern states, couldn't understand why some people would be willing to play Confederate, since so many people associate the Confederacy with slavery.
I would often be among the first to defend the boys in gray across the battlefield. Why? Because they represent a history that happened. Like it or not, slavery, the Rebellion, and all of the baggage that goes with it are part of what makes us who we are. We need to remember every part of history no matter how unpleasant, or even downright vile, it is. In fairness, the Confederate reenactors were honoring bravery on the battlefield and not trying to glorify 250 years of brutal oppression and slavery... But the fact is none of those issues can be seperated from one another without losing the context.
I would argue the real hypocracy would be in sanitizing history.
The same applies to model railroading. As a meteorologist I am bombarded day after day with the issue of climate change (and a word of warning right now, I will NOT engage in that debate again here), yet on my railroad I haul coal. Why? Because it happened. It has nothing to do with my stand on this contentious issue, but everything to do with my desire to be faithful to history.
History is like our body, with all of its blemishes and imperfections. Sometimes it looks great and noble; other times it look ugly as sin. But it's who we are; without it we are someone else.
Without complete history, our identity is lost. So it is with our model railroads, if we wish them to represent or even resemble the real thing.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Dave Vollmer wrote: I would argue the real hypocracy would be in sanitizing history.
In one sentence you say what I tried to say with many. History is history, if we are depicting it we should strive for a realistic picture of it.
To build on Dave Vollmer's post:
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
Craig
DMW
A couple of months ago I started a thread relating to the fact that "flesh" toned paint is sort of peach colored - my contention is that in the early 21st century we should have more variety and that this may be a subtle and unintended statement of bias. That thread led to discussions of race/ethincity throughout american history (and a few interesting suggestions for mix-your-own skin tones). One person who replied to the thread commented that we frequently adjust the way things are/were as we create our own depictions of the world. He included the fact that we often omit practices of segregation and mistreatment of the environment as examples. That really got me thinking.
When I look at my layout, there is no "other side of the tracks," there is no crime, there is full employment, there is a beautiful/healthy environment (trees appear as fast as I can build them), all the automobiles are sparkling clean, there is no need for weapons, and there are universally happy people of a variety of skin tones. It is set in the early 20th century (the newest automobile is a '32, so I suppose it's set in 1932). I didn't intentionally leave out the ugliness that existed back then. I built my layout to make me happy; I find no joy in the unenlightend policies and laws of the past (or present, for that matter) - on my layout, they never existed. I never intended to be true to history, but to depict a world as it might have been (and could still become).
I spend enough time in the imperfect and unfair real world (I work in human resources). In model reailroading I find the peace and harmony that is often lacking in 1:1. Years ago, Linn Westcott wrote an At The Throttle column in which he asked if our hobby might be a prototype for the real world. His primary reference was the way model railroaders treat each other so well (as is generally the case in the Forums, LHS, train shows, etc.); he contended that we might be an example for interpersonal conduct on a larger scale. Taking Linn's point a step further: Perhaps our layouts give us an opportunity to envision what is possible and step away from what is in our 1:1 world. Maybe someday our prototype world will be one in which there is no crime, there is full employment, there is a beautiful/healthy environment, there is no need for weapons, and we are all universally happy people of a variety of skin tones and cultures.
One can always hope.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
I hate to throw a dose of reality in to all of this liberal hand-wringing but I found this in an article in USA Today about coal mining: The average West Virginia miner made about $64,000 last year, according to Workforce West Virginia, part of the state's commerce department. That's more than twice the $31,000 average income for all industries in the state. Hall knows of one bulldozer operator at a coal mine who made, after bonuses and overtime, $118,000 last year.Contrary to the "Coal Miner's Daughter" stereotype, most coal miners (at least in the U.S.) are well trained, well paid and know the risks they are taking. -George
Exactly.
For the most part these days, coal miners are well trained and hard working, and are paid quite well for their efforts. Yes, deep mining still is and always will be an extremely dangerous occupation. Safety standards are much higher now, though, and the mines aren't filled with thousands of "disposable" workers who were paid pennies a day like was the case 100 years ago.
The real problems with poverty in Appalachia are the people whose only occupation is waiting for their SSI, WIC, and Foodstamps to show up in the mailbox once a month. If there were more people willing to make an honest living, whether it be by working in the coal mines or any of the other well-paying jobs available, poverty would not be an issue in the Appalachians.
Dallas Model Works wrote: To build on Dave Vollmer's post:Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
I did participate in Living History and the unit I was with simply had two sets of weapons, uniforms. One South, One North. As long we had enough people to fill out a battle situation on both sides things were good. States Rights, Slavery or anything related didnt matter. Just X yankees there and X Johnnys over here. lol.
PAERR wrote: I hate to throw a dose of reality in to all of this liberal hand-wringing but I found this in an article in USA Today about coal mining: The average West Virginia miner made about $64,000 last year, according to Workforce West Virginia, part of the state's commerce department. That's more than twice the $31,000 average income for all industries in the state. Hall knows of one bulldozer operator at a coal mine who made, after bonuses and overtime, $118,000 last year.
Yep! All the miners I've seen are pretty darn happy to have those jobs. Try and tell them your going to close their jobs down because it's dangerous and unfair to them. See where THAT gets you. I'd rather work in a mine than on a bridge or skyscraper.(two more dangerous jobs)
Good points about the ship builders and WWII modelers.
shayfan84325 wrote: I spend enough time in the imperfect and unfair real world (I work in human resources). In model reailroading I find the peace and harmony that is often lacking in 1:1. Years ago, Linn Westcott wrote an At The Throttle column in which he asked if our hobby might be a prototype for the real world. His primary reference was the way model railroaders treat each other so well (as is generally the case in the Forums, LHS, train shows, etc.); he contended that we might be an example for interpersonal conduct on a larger scale. Taking Linn's point a step further: Perhaps our layouts give us an opportunity to envision what is possible and step away from what is in our 1:1 world. Maybe someday our prototype world will be one in which there is no crime, there is full employment, there is a beautiful/healthy environment, there is no need for weapons, and we are all universally happy people of a variety of skin tones and cultures.One can always hope.
It's a nice thought Phil, but as long as people are involved it won't happen ! I'm not a religious person, but I think the " seven deadly sins " pretty much cover why the world will never be perfect !
To all,
This is a hobby and to add a quote that has been repeated many times, " a very personal one. " So in our little worlds we can do pretty much whatever we want to, we can have it as it was or as we wish it should have been. The only person it should matter to, stares back at you in the mirror every day ! As long as your comfortable with that what's the problem ?
Cheers,
Warren
jecorbett wrote:~(My first car was a 1960 Olds 88 that got about 8 mph)~
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Most of the coal miners I've known are proud, hard-working, decent people not unlike you and me at all. They are not oppressed. Yes, there is still danger in the underground and surface mine from time to time, just as there is in the post office, courtroom, classroom, what have you. They were my neighbors, friends, and relatives when I was growing up.
I model a coal mine. My train hauls coal. It represents a segment of the environment I remember growing up.
I also have a school on my layout--I retired from teaching. It is not something I'm trying to glorify. Its simply something that I can model reasonably well because I have firsthand knowledge. I have a "See Rock City" sign on a barn roof not because I think barn roofs should say "See Rock City", but because its a part of my experience. It brings a grin to my face.
This thread has some interesting and thoughtful ideas--not so much what I expected when I first started reading.
Wow, guys, I kinda hope Bergie doesn't put an end to this thread. Not only does it raise an issue I have considered before, the reponses are, for the most part, really good and well thought out.
Raising an issue like this is somewhat like taking a hard look at humor; most humor involves stories about someone getting hurt in some fashion. Sometimes they are just embarrassed, but other jokes are based on someone about to be injured or even killed. Yet we laugh anyway, because it's just a story. If we witnessed such an event happening in real life, it is unlikely we would find it so amusing.
In answer to the original observation, most of us don't really model coal mining, per se. We model a place for our trains to pick up a load. In model railroading, we create a miniature world to support the movement of our trains and, just as we selectively compress some items to fit, we tend to create that world without adding all the facets of the reality we are replicating. There's nothing wrong with that; I'm all for politics staying out of model railroading and I am all for keeping it a pleasurable hobby, something that might be hard to do if we saddled ourselves with all the tragedy and strife that goes with some of our favorite modeling subjects, including the trains themselves.
Bill C.
ben10ben wrote:I hate to throw a dose of reality in to all of this liberal hand-wringing but I found this in an article in USA Today about coal mining: The average West Virginia miner made about $64,000 last year, according to Workforce West Virginia, part of the state's commerce department. That's more than twice the $31,000 average income for all industries in the state. Hall knows of one bulldozer operator at a coal mine who made, after bonuses and overtime, $118,000 last year.Contrary to the "Coal Miner's Daughter" stereotype, most coal miners (at least in the U.S.) are well trained, well paid and know the risks they are taking. -George Exactly. For the most part these days, coal miners are well trained and hard working, and are paid quite well for their efforts. Yes, deep mining still is and always will be an extremely dangerous occupation. Safety standards are much higher now, though, and the mines aren't filled with thousands of "disposable" workers who were paid pennies a day like was the case 100 years ago. The real problems with poverty in Appalachia are the people whose only occupation is waiting for their SSI, WIC, and Foodstamps to show up in the mailbox once a month. If there were more people willing to make an honest living, whether it be by working in the coal mines or any of the other well-paying jobs available, poverty would not be an issue in the Appalachians.
As some recent coal mine disasters have shown, not all coal mies are operated to the latest and highest safety standards. Violations are numerous and uncorrected. Paying above the national average wage should not be a substitute for safe operating conditions.
What are these other well-paying jobs in the Appalachians?
Paul
Dave Vollmer wrote: Without complete history, our identity is lost. So it is with our model railroads, if we wish them to represent or even resemble the real thing.
Which is why I actually had to explain to the club I belong to why I wanted an exemption to the Sky Blue policy of the backboards. All of my rolling stock, vehicles, industries and figures represent a time from 1932 to 1955 excluding 1942 to 1945 (I exclude these years not for lack of intrest, but for lack of talent on my part to model them correctly), with more leaning to the '32 side of things than the '55 side of things. So when Walthers came out with thier coke retort I though it was perfect for a club setting. Unfortunetly I have never seen Sky Blue and Coke Retort in the same sentence unless it first stated that the Coke Retort was abandon or inoperative. There are strikers in front of the Retort grounds, and there will be a group of cops with nightsticks drawn to "disperse" them. I have already gotten comments about it from onlookers and club members. The fixed on grin and the, "are you sure you want to model that?" or "why are you modeling that?" My response is my layout at home, our club layout here represent an ideal that is not found anywhere. My strikers, the dirt, the grime, pollution and the managements reactions to labor are my way of reminding people that the past while "sanitary" (it is in the past after all) was not necissarily clean and those people who fought for change, the status quo and for themselves should be shown no matter how touchy the subject. I still can not bring myself to anything on the race riots, although I am debating an anti-Irish riot, segregation or jim crowe, or for that matter chain gangs. It is a double standard but it's my double standard and at least I don't constantly have to defend my choice depicting a labor despute as I would a race riot.
On a side note: My sister lives in Mississippi now, and with her very obvious northern accent often gets asked (and told) which side her family fought on. Her response was thus and it stunned the audience in question.
"So your family fought for the North?"
"No, My family fought for all three sides, the North, the South and for himself. My great, great grandfather took the Union for all it was worth and then took the South for all it was worth. He was an equal oppurtunity bigot and businessman. It was just a shame he was a better bigot than he was a businessman."
"Ummm..."
Which just goes to show that there is a way to end North South debates that don't end in raging fist fights.
Being a "knee jerk bleeding heart liberal" as you so eloquently admit to; your question does not surprise me.
Thanks for being honest.
Trynn_Allen2 wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote: Without complete history, our identity is lost. So it is with our model railroads, if we wish them to represent or even resemble the real thing.---long paragraph deleted---On a side note: My sister lives in Mississippi now, and with her very obvious northern accent often gets asked (and told) which side her family fought on. Her response was thus and it stunned the audience in question. "So your family fought for the North?""No, My family fought for all three sides, the North, the South and for himself. My great, great grandfather took the Union for all it was worth and then took the South for all it was worth. He was an equal oppurtunity bigot and businessman. It was just a shame he was a better bigot than he was a businessman.""Ummm..."Which just goes to show that there is a way to end North South debates that don't end in raging fist fights.
---long paragraph deleted---
I've lived south of the Mason-Dixon line several times, most recently a long stay in Tennessee, and have also been asked which side my forebears fought on. When I told the questioners that I think they were fighting for the Kaiser because they despised all things French all I get is stupid looks. Seems that they never heard of the Franco-Prussian War, and are totally oblivious to the fact that Blucher's appearance was a significant contribution to Wellington's victory over Buonaparte at Waterloo...
The earliest date that any of my ancestors came through Ellis Island was 1883. The last arrived in 1912. My children and grandchildren can extend that to 1960, and Honolulu...
What is past is prologue. It is also set in stone. I have nothing but contempt for those who would revise history to make it conform to today's 'politically correct' attitudes, and only slightly less contempt for those who would judge the actions of the past by standards which have been radically changed by intervening history.
As for dangerous occupations - only recently have people been able to support themselves in ways that weren't hazardous to life and limb. One reason that more people succumb to heart disease and cancer is that more people live long enough to have them develop, rather than dying young through work-related misadventure or occupational malady. Likewise, the wealthy have always supported themselves on the backs of the poor - from the lord in his castle down to the CEO in his plush office - and ALL professional politicians, regardless of type or stripe. The Sun will go nova before that changes.
My attitude? To quote Alfred E. Newman, "What, me worry?"
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
tomikawaTT wrote:[ One reason that more people succumb to heart disease and cancer is that more people live long enough to have them develop, rather than dying young through work-related misadventure or occupational malady.
One reason that more people succumb to heart disease and cancer is that more people live long enough to have them develop, rather than dying young through work-related misadventure or occupational malady.
This is a very important point. We are always hearing on the news how hear diseases, cancer and so on is killing people and more people are sick now a days with a lot of diseases that comes with age. Well, a 100 years ago we died before we got the opportunity to get these diseases and to actually die from them. We are also actually able to diagnose them now unlike in the past. The glorious past when people died young and every one was able to scratch build their own engines and the hobby was growing like an oak.