HO vs. N

[Don Gibson]

I have decide that I am going to use N scale but if people can give me a reason that I sould use HO scale give me some good reason I am working with a 8x12ft layout and dont think I can put much.

CURVES limit equipment. CURVES take up space. How much SPACE do you have?

(1) get a PAD with crosshairs from any Office supply store.

(2) DRAW (ink) the room boundaries to scale, include stairways, doorways, windows, and all immovable objects.

(3) PENCIL IN various layouts, being cognoscent of all accessable needs  such as appliances to reach, furnaces to service, etc. 

An 8X12 is an 'HO' sized layout, and too often what a simplistic 4X8 takes up, when you walk around it to operate (think a pool table).  Better to cut into 4' trapazoidal corners (with large access holes) and shove your layought against a wall and into corners, where 32" arms can reach everything.

Remember, RR right-of-ways are narrow. Curves take up the room.

shayfan84325 : WORRIED ABOUT realstic track. etc?

http://www.proto87.com/

 

(3)

[concretelackey]

Something to keep in mind here is that the OP stated 8x12 layout......he did not elaborate on whether this is an 8x12 room, a 8x12 layout (either L shaped or U shaped) that is only 30" deep, or a 8x12 table.

I think maybe the OP needs to supply some more info so that we can assume less?

[pcarrell]

The thing that bugs me about N scale is rail height and balast size.  The old N scale track had HUGE rail - it equated to over 14 scale inches tall.  Now there's code 55 rail, it's better, but it still equates to almost 9 inches tall.  I feel like I can look at nearly any N scale layout and tell that it's N by looking at the rail height.  For me, that's pretty objectionable.  Ballast size is a similar problem.  Grab a chunk of N scale ballast and measure it, muliply that times 160; it's the size of a football!  A 2" rock in N scale should be .012" across.  That's pretty fine sand.  Locomotive handrails should be .008" in diameter.  Sewing thread looks like a 1" cable in N scale.  1/160 scale makes it really tough to keep things from being over scale size.

Good points!  I'd forgotten those in my disertation. 

N scale now has code 40 that is gaining wider acceptence, but it's not mainstream yet.  Ballast size can be a tough to deal with issue, but there are ways to get that worked out too.  As for the handrails and such, they're a lot better then they used to be, but you're right, some improvement wouldn't hurt.

[stilson4283]

I am not going to add too much to this only to say take a look at the last layout contest and you can see what can be accomplished in the space of a 10x12 (a little bigger than the space you have). 

http://www.chipengelmann.com/Trains/10x12Contest.html

Also look into the designs on the MR interactive site for plans in both scales. 

Chris

Lancaster, CA

[shayfan84325]

The thing that bugs me about N scale is rail height and ballast size.  The old N scale track had HUGE rail - it equated to over 14 scale inches tall.  Now there's code 55 rail, it's better, but it still equates to almost 9 inches tall.  I feel like I can look at [pictures of] nearly any N scale layout and tell that it's N by looking at the rail height.  For me, that's pretty objectionable.  Ballast size is a similar problem.  Grab a chunk of N scale ballast and measure it, muliply that times 160; it's the size of a football!  A 2" rock in N scale should be .012" across.  That's pretty fine sand.  Locomotive handrails should be .008" in diameter.  Sewing thread looks like a 1" cable in N scale.  1/160 scale makes it really tough to keep things from being over scale size.

I was an N scale modeler in the '70s.  I hand laid my code 55 track and I was happy with it.  I had a heck of a time keeping those little engines running.  I understand that 21st century N scale motive power is much improved over that.

I've seen some great looking N scale layouts, and really fine N scale rolling stock; I hear the passion that current N scalers have for it, so I know it can be a lot of fun.  One advantage that it has is that you can run much more prototypical trains.  I've seen N scale trains of over 100 cars being pulled by 5 or 6 big diesels - it looks pretty cool (at $5 per car and $80 per loco that train would cost $900 just to set it on the track).  I also really admire the level of detail that I see in really nice HO layouts, but the trains are usually shorter.

Now that HOn3 flex track and turnouts are available, you might consider a narrow gauge layout.  I know your handle reflects an interest in monster steam locos, like mine says I'm a Shay fan.  Maybe your interests are really broader than that, like mine are broader than just Shays.  There were (are?) articulated narrogauge models and prototypes, but they are not huge like standard gauge articulateds.  What's nice about narrow gauge is that you can make curves tighter than Standard gauge, so you have a lot of the same track plan flexibility that N scale offers, but you get to make details like HO scale - because it is HO, with skinnier track.

At 8 X 12 feet, your layout will be twice the size as my HO layout.  I've got 35 feet of main line, with bridges, trestles, tunnels, a turntable, and all kinds of fun stuff.  You could have twice as much as me in HO, but I think you'll find than N does not quadruple your fun in the same space.  My reccomendation is to go HO of one gauge or another.

[pcarrell]

I've been watching this thread for a while now to see what would come of it.  I can see that both sides are quite passionate about their positions. 

I do see a lot of generalities being thrown out there, and perhaps that has to do with folks unfamiliararity with scales they don't typically model in.......understandable.  I don't want to stoke that fire any more, but I think I might have a thing or two to add to this discussion.

Let's start with this.....

Just to clear the air.......kit and scratchbuilding can be done in any scale.  It's nothing more then putting parts together (well, there is more to it, but you know what I mean.....look, now I'm speaking in generalities!).  And kitbashing is alive and well in all scales (yes, from the biggest to the smallest), though to the casual observer it may not be appearent.  There are hard core modelers in all scales who do this sort of thing all the time in their chosen scale.  In the end, if you want a particular loco, car, or whatever, and it's not readily available, isn't this where real modeling (scratchbuilding / kitbashing) comes in?  And does that kind of modeling recognize the size of an object?  I'd suggest that it doesn't.  The biggest difference really is in the level of fine details included in the model.  But don't let that fool you into thinking that a small model can't be very well detailed just because of it's diminuative size.

It's true that the cost difference is not too big between these two scales, item per item.  It's also true though, that N scale allows more to be fit into a given area.  Because of that fact, N scale may well end up being more costly due to buying more products to fit in said area.

It's also true that HO scale has more DCC equipped and sound equipped loco's available off the shelf, but then we get right back to the kit building / model building issue again (sort of) when it comes to adding DCC and/or sound to an N scale loco.  And while you have that thing apart, how about doing some detailing and upgrades?  Isn't that what modeling is really all about anyways?  And if you don't feel like ripping into a loco in N, there are choices available to meet those needs too, and there's more coming all the time.

Everyone here has done well in pointing out the benefits to their particular scale, so lets take a look at the problems.

You want to know what I see is the biggest drawback to N scale?  (I'll pick on that scale first, since, admittedly, I'm more familiar with it.)  Lets look at the operational side first, OK?  N scale is not real big, as we all know.  Because of that, there isn't a lot of room for weight in the loco's to weigh them down.  This means that pulling power is somewhat limited.  Steam power suffers more then diesels in this area.  You can always double head, but sometimes that doesn't work well for whatever reason.  The fix for this has typically been to add traction tires to loco's (and also upgrade rolling stock to roll more freely), but then that cuts down on electrical pickup.  And thats the second major problem the N scale has, electrical pickup.  Since the models are smaller, they have a smaller area that they spread across the rails for electrical pickup.  This is accentuated when you use small steam, critters, or even smaller diesels with traction tires.  There are things that can be done to help all of this, but it's an inherent problem built into the size issue.  Also, adding a decoder for DCC and/or sound can sometimes be challenging due to space limitations.  OK, now lets look at visuals.  N scale is small, there's no denying that.  Because of that, the detail threshold is lower for the most part (though not always) then larger scales.  Thats to be expected.  A doorknob in HO scale for example, is clearly a doorknob on an average off the shelf model, whereas, on an N scale model it's not much more then a bump on the molding.  This is the tradeoff you make for having the wide open vista's and mountains that actually dwarf the trains that run through them.  All of this is not to say that you can't add details to your N scale model and have it rival some of the best that HO has to offer.  Kinda gets back to that "modeling" thing again, doesn't it?  Another point to concider, N scale is well known for leaning towards modern diesels, but it's not impossible to model even civil war era (or just post civil war) trains in this scale.  They're available and can run quite well.  Lastly, there's the issue of quality.  N scale is getting better all the time, and there are some excellent models available, but there's also a fair amount of junk available too (HO has this issue too, but maybe not as bad).  It does one good to ask other N scalers what's good before you plunk down your hard earned dollars.

Alright, let's look at HO scale.  It's much larger then N scale, and so it has a whole different set of issues associated with it.  Curve radii is typically much larger and structures take up more real estate as well.  Operationally, this scale has had many of it's issues solved over the years, but the issue of traction tires is one that I've seen come up from time to time.  There are those that feel they are not necessary and so they don't want to lose the electrical pickup, and others who need the extra grunt to get up that steep grade on their layout.  In this respect, the HO camp seems more split then the N scalers, though there are N scalers that don't like them as well.  Visually, HO scale is a delight to the eyes, but because of it's larger size it has a higher detail threshold.  This means that you may find yourself spending lots of time and money in the small details that really do show in this scale.  It can bog a person down, but if done well it is a real treat visually.  Fortunately, a lot of products are available to help you with this job.  The thing is, often, though not always, the absence of this level of detailing leaves one with the impression that something isn't right, that something is undone.  I've seen well done HO models that don't have this high level of detailing, but I'd suggest that they are the exception to the rule rather then the norm. 

So with all of that said, what did I pick?

I went with N scale.  I can be up close and personal with my trains if I want (just view them at eye level), but I can also have larger scenes then would be available in my space with a larger scale.  Also, I can use a 17.5"r curve and it's considered most generous with my longer passenger cars looking great (IMHO) on them.

And what should you pick?

Go to a hobby shop or a club, and get your hands on some of the models.  Try them out if you can, and take a good look at them.  One of them will "speak" to you.  Thats probably the right one for you.

 

[Lateral-G]

I used to model N-scale for many years (from about 1980 to 2002). I dropped out of the hobby for a bit and now that I'm back I'm going HO (HOn3 to be exact).

When I was young N-scale didn't bother me because I could see it. But since youth has gone and reality has set in I needed to go up in scale in order to fully enjoy what I was modeling. Being fat-fingered too doesn't help. There were many times when I was doing N-scale I had wished for all the choices the HO guys had. But since I stuck to my choice it also forced me to learn how to make the things I wanted and to have patience for manufacturers to make that which I just couldn't do.

There are lots more options now in N-scale these days (WRT track, locos, structures and rolling stock) than back in the day when I was doing it. 

In N-scale you can have twice the layout in the given space than you could with HO. For me though, I wanted to model narrow gauge and doing so in N was and still is more difficult.

I'm not going to tell you one is better than the other, however. Each has its merits and detractions. You have to decide what YOU want. Give it a carefull consideration because if you decide to change scales later on it could be quite expensive the further you get into it.

Good luck with your decision.

-G- 

[loathar]

Let's face it. Size matters but it's all relative. I can remember when HO was the small scale and the O guys were saying the same thing to the HO guys 

I remember that when I was first starting out. "That HO stuff will NEVER catch on!" "Here, I've got some nice Marx O scale sets on sale..."

[jecorbett]

Let's face it. Size matters but it's all relative. I can remember when HO was the small scale and the O guys were saying the same thing to the HO guys that many are saying to the N guys today. If Z ever catches on in popularity, I have no doubts that a generation from now, you N guys will be telling the Zers the same thing HO guys are telling you now.

[Dave Vollmer]

Yes, HO is more popular, and it's probably easier to do.  If easier and common is your thing, then by all means, do HO

This is a great way to marginalize some great HO modeling Dave, if you want to drum up support for N, maybe a different approach would work.

 

And that's why I put the smiling grin guy...  To indicate that I was joking.  I did notice, however, that you removed the smiley when you quoted me.  Clever.

This was my tongue-in-cheek answer to the often serious argument people make that people should do HO because it's more popular and easier.

Sheesh.  No room for humor...

[Geared Steam]

Yes, HO is more popular, and it's probably easier to do.  If easier and common is your thing, then by all means, do HO

This is a great way to marginalize some great HO modeling Dave, if you want to drum up support for N, maybe a different approach would work.

 

[rolleiman]

My

"More Popular"... So if everyone else is jumping off a bridge...

 

Lee 

 Well, After reading through the comments, including the moronic ones (example) , the real question you need to answer for yourself my freind is WHAT do you want to run?? The comment that 30+ inch radii (HO scale) cannot be used in an 8 x 12 room is also retarded. I saw someone mention 46" radius. That is in fact the largest you will get on such an area. The fact is, if you can spare a 24-30 inch wide shelf around that room (or whatever you can reach across comfortably) you can use any radius you want. Keep in mind however that the wider your radius, the shorter your straight sections will be. Not necassarily a bad thing but keep it in mind.

So, I'll ask again..

What do you want to run (locos, cars, etc)?

Think about time frame.

Think about what you would like to (can) spend. 

Your moniker is 4-6-6-4 Challanger.. Is THAT what you want to run? Are they available in N scale at a price you can (are willing) to pay (I honestly don't know)..  

Or will you be happy running 4 and 6 axle diesels and small steam engines? Passenger trains, Frieght trains, Both?

Do you want to do mountainous scenery or city or a mix of both? 

Are you going to have to Move this layout anytime soon? 

Do a little planning. Investigate your cost. See what's available. Go to the Walther's website and seek out a few of the items you are planning on purchasing (they give what should be the retail price charged in hobby shops). Most of all, be realistic in your expectations.

[Dallas Model Works]

My two cents: I like HO because I prefer building models of trains more than running models of trains. (Not that I don't like running them.)

I like detail and I find that HO is the right size for that.

If I was more inclined to running trains over building trains, I would probably opt for N because of the greater running  "distances" it allows.

Ask yourself what appeals to you more and you may find your answer.

 

[wm3798]

I don't expect everyone to be like myself...  The world would be a pretty scarey place!

It just seems like every time the question of choosing a scale comes up, there's always someone who declares that N scale is impossibly small and that it should be avoided at all costs.  So the question is, do these naysayers expect everyone else to have five thumbs and coke bottle glasses?  

Maybe it's my libertarian nature, but I didn't choose my scale because "everyone else is doing it" or because it was "the most popular" or because "That's what my club had".  I chose it because it offers a lot more flexibility when designing a layout for operation, can occupy a more reasonable space when space is an issue, and (my favorite part) it presents a challenge to build my skills in a variety of areas, ranging from scratchbuilding to electronics to photography.  Is it hard to see?  Absolutely.  Is it rewarding when you put a little extra effort in to work through that?  I think so. 

I also believe that working on fine detail work on a small scale provides exercise for your eyes, hands and brains, just as working crossword puzzles has been shown to develop focus, long term memory, and an uncanny knack for knowing three letter words with no vowels in them!

With all the pre-fab products available in HO, I just don't see that as being a terribly challenging scale to work in (other than to try to achieve a realistic track plan). 

But just in case, I do have a Ma & Pa 10 wheeler and a gas electric car in HO... (You know I still love you guys!)

Lee 

[loathar]

If your young and have good eyes, go with N. You can fit a lot in an 8x12.

I knew we wouldn't have to wait long for this lame comment...

Lee 

What's THAT supposed to mean??

[New Haven I-5]

HO all the way. The advantge of HO is sound & dcc. N doesn't have a lot DCC locos & very rarely you'll see a N scale loco with sound. Also HO has a huge selection everything & is eaiser to add & paint figures. Also with HO you can make or buy interiors for passenger cars & buildings. I model HO & N so I know the difference.

Wow.  Funny, 'cause I'm running N scale with DCC and didn't have a problem.

As for sound, I've seen/heard sound in an N scale 4-4-0.

But you're the expert, right?

I'm not saying there is no DCC/Sound in N scale. Its just there is more DCC/Sound in HO than N. Also, DCC/ Sound is cheaper in HO.

[Dave Vollmer]

HO all the way. The advantge of HO is sound & dcc. N doesn't have a lot DCC locos & very rarely you'll see a N scale loco with sound. Also HO has a huge selection everything & is eaiser to add & paint figures. Also with HO you can make or buy interiors for passenger cars & buildings. I model HO & N so I know the difference.

Wow.  Funny, 'cause I'm running N scale with DCC and didn't have a problem finding DCC locos (or installing my own).

As for sound, I've seen/heard sound in an N scale 4-4-0.  PCM and Athearn offer sound-equipped N scale locos and both MRC and Soundtraxx offer N scale sound decoders.

[New Haven I-5]

HO all the way. The advantge of HO is sound & dcc. N doesn't have a lot DCC locos & very rarely you'll see a N scale loco with sound. Also HO has a huge selection everything & is eaiser to add & paint figures. Also with HO you can make or buy interiors for passenger cars & buildings. I model HO & N so I know the difference.

[Dave Vollmer]

I also get kind of tired of the "you must be young to handle N scale" comment...  I've seen plenty of modelers more than twice my age (and I'm 33) happily operating N scale trains.

8x12 feet is an excellent space for N.  It's decent for HO too.  Something you can try is to find or make an HO plan for that 8x12 foot space, but then lay it in N scale.  Why?  You'll end up with huge curves and plenty of room for scenery.  That's four times the the railroad in N than you get in the same space with HO.

I chose N, obviously.

Since you like Challengers, you should be very happy with Athearn's new N scale Challenger; it's gotten awesome reviews among its owners.

Yes, HO is more popular, and it's probably easier to do.  If easier and common is your thing, then by all means, do HO!

[Packer]

Well, I picked HO, because it's what I was given to start with. I thought about going to N once or twice, but the local railraod club is HO, and I can run most of what I wanted to run in HO scale. I'm not quite sure if what I wanted is in N scale though, as far as equipment goes. (i.e. SD/GP 7s to dash 2s)

IMO, find out what equippment you want, then find out if it's available in your scale. If you know anyone who is in the hobby, try to get the same scale as them. (usually though, it's HO or N)

[ICRR1964]

If you feel you should do the switch and your are looking forward to it, I say go for it. I like the long running N layouts, always seems like miles in a layout than feet, and is always eye appealing.

 

Lee,

Just off hand do you think everyone is like yourself? I Built a small N layout years back just for the sake of giving it the good old college effort. It turned out real nice, but I had a dickens of a time sometimes. When some one says something about having a hard time working with it because of size, and being hard to see, does not mean they are blind! I have extra large fingers that don't work well with N, sometimes I have problems with some HO also. As far as seeing and working on N? Yes it is more difficult for me to see some things, same with the HO at times. I have some freinds that model N, nice looking, and built layouts. I have one freind who just turned 72 and is about ready to quit because of his shaking hands and his eye sight is not really good, a few of us got together and gave him some items from our HO stock. Track, Buildings, cars and engines. Old Tom is doing better, was an N scale runner for 30 years, now all his N items are boxed up and he is building a new HO layout. What were we suppose to do? Tell him to suck it up and deal with it?

I don't think anyone here is trying to bash N, so why the gruff post from you Lee?

[wm3798]

While both are readily available HO seems more popular. Also, it's going to be a trying to fit snapped couplers and small stuff back on.

 

My

"More Popular"... So if everyone else is jumping off a bridge...

I've been using Micro Train couplers going on 20 years.  I think I've broken 5 couplers.  Working in N scale is like anything else.  It can be difficult at first, but once you get the hang of it, it goes pretty smoothly.

Lee 

[Geared Steam]

Since you seem unsure but are inclined to N, I suggest you start with N but not invest a lot.  Get some track down, run some trains, build a station.  If you're happy then keep on with N.  If you're not then try another scale. Many of us switched scales, some more than once, before finding the one that we like best.

Enjoy

Paul 

[wm3798]

BZZZZZZ  Wrong Answer, Iron Rooster (BTW, I'm a closet M&P fan... I'd love to see some more pics of your S scale work...)

Don't start N scale without investing ENOUGH.  You can get all kinds of cheap crap, but if you spend wisely on the better products (Atlas, Kato) then you'll never be disappointed.

Lee 

[IRONROOSTER]

You can build a layout in any scale with that much space - Z through G.  So the real question is what do you like to do.  Running long trains, lots of stations, lots of meets between trains is usually best done with small scales.  Highly detailed model building, lots of train presence, clickety clack through the switches is best done with large scales.  In between scales are a compromise to do some of both.

Pricewise N or Z scale is probably the most expensive because you will buy more pieces.  Other scales are roughly equal.  Of course if you're like most of us and buy more than you can use this may not be true. 

Since you seem unsure but are inclined to N, I suggest you start with N but not invest a lot.  Get some track down, run some trains, build a station.  If you're happy then keep on with N.  If you're not then try another scale. Many of us switched scales, some more than once, before finding the one that we like best.

Enjoy

Paul 

[steinjr]

I have decide that I am going to use N scale but if people can give me a reason that I sould use HO scale give me some good reason I am working with a 8x12ft layout and dont think I can put much.

 Go N-scale, since you seem interested in large steam engines which used to pull long trains through open landscapes. Think in terms of a shelf layout around the room.

 And do go to your local library and check out a couple of books on model railroading, or buy a couple of the MR books on stuff like bridges, intersections, engine terminals etc. 

 That will give you an idea of things you can do, and the background you need to come up with more precise questions on how to do various things you want to do, instead of doing vague general polls fairly frequently.

 Here is a list of potensially interesting small books/booklets from the people who own this forum:

http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/model-railroading-books-model-railroading-for-beginners.html

http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/model-railroading-books-home-layout-ideas.html

http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/model-railroading-books-track-plans-and-layout-planning.html

http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/model-railroading-books-scenery.html

http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/model-railroading-books-wiring-electronics.html

Good luck in deciding on your vision, and then scale, location, era and track plan.

Smile,
Stein

 

[railroadnut675]

While both are readily available HO seems more popular. Also, it's going to be a trying to fit snapped couplers and small stuff back on.

 

My

[outdoorsfellar]

8x12. That's quite a bit you can work with. My N scale Allegheny & Cumberland is 8 1/2 X 11 1/2.  Just as mentioned beforehand, there's compromises to be made no matter which scale. The most important thing to look at to begin with is the room itself. How workable is this space ? Do you plan on around the wall type, or more of something in the middle. What type of entrance & is there closet space ? My mainline running length is @ 80 ft... give or take, so take a long hard look at what your preferences are & then you'll realize that's where the compromises start.

[wm3798]

Perhaps I was a bit harsh with my comment, but it seems that any time the issue of scale comes up, someone has to bellyache that they have to squint to see N scale.  (I'm using 14 pt. type so those guilty of this can read what I'm saying)

So, by extrapolation, to work in O scale you should be blind as a bat? 

Thank you Jecorbett for clarifying that all scales have their compromises.  I think everyone understands that certain individuals of any age will find some things about N scale more difficult, but I promise you, I have known a fair number of N scale modelers who are well into their 70's, and they extract every ounce of enjoyment they can from their layouts.

I guess all I'm asking here is that we stop over-stating the obvious size difference as some sort of broad brush rule about scale choice.  It would be just as inconsiderate to say that all HO gauge modelers are lazy because they can buy anything they want off the rack without ever lifting a finger to build a model, which of course is what all the N scalers are murmering under their breath when you see them gathered around the N trak layout at the train show...

Lee 

[luvadj]

I sure do miss my HO stuff (easier on the eyes), but like everyone else is saying, N-Scale will give you more in the same 8 X 10 and the selection is improving rapidly.

I've been in N-Scale for 15 years now and I'm still happy with the decision for reasons of space.