Train Length: A New Rule Of Thumb?

[Dallas Model Works]

Consideration of the length of trains one plans to run is always a key element in designing a layout.

But how can you determine in advance how long your trains ought to be?

I stumbled across something this morning that may help.

I was sitting on the exercise bike this morning (yes, I was actually pedalling) and facing the layout on the opposite side of the room.

A consist of about 16 cars was parked on the mainline (hey, I'm in construction mode) and situated perpindicular to my axis of view.

I noticed that by looking straight ahead and not shifting my eyes or head to the left or right, it took about 14 cars to fill my field of vision. (These were HO 40' and 50' cars.)

So it seems to me that a good rule of thumb might be: Optimal train length for a given layout is the number of cars it takes to fill one's field of vision when viewed from the farthest distance possible in the layout room.

Usually one will be much closer to the layout (for a tighter field of view) and with the added variable of scenery density, this should hopefully ensure adequate "feel" that there is a proper length train going by and not just a short-arsed model of a train.

Feel free to poke holes in my little theory! 

 

[sleeper33]

Work's for me

Gav

[philnrunt]

  Yeppers, me too.

  And you've already gotten more good out of an exercise bike than most have.

[ereimer]

it works , but does it stop working if you turn your head ?

perhaps it is better to have the layout divided by various view blocks into areas slightly longer than the longest train you run . brings us back to how long should that train be ... maybe as long as your longest yard track ?

 

i really don't know . just something to think about . it's a very good question , and it has me scratching my head   

[selector]

I think you have certainly included the key element of "impression", with that being dovetailed in with what the topography can show reasonably well from a number of angles, maybe only one.

I wanted to create the illusion of long coal drags, so I tow enough that the engine is in a second tunnel while the consist moves between it and the first tunnel with about a five car overage, plus caboose.  Between the two close portals, the train seems endless.  This way, when the whole emerges from the far side of the second tunnel and is turning around a sweeping horseshoe-type curve, I can still get some nice perspective and make it seem like a long train.  For my purposes, anything longer than....why, what a coincidence...14 cars is longer than needed.

This image shows the train foreshortened, but the effect is pleasing, and the impression of length is right...for me.

 

[Anonymous]

I quit counting beyond 20.

Anything over 30 is too long.

8-16 cars or so makes a train. A train you can work with in switching.

We created a 30 car train once. The video of it passing by at 40 scale miles an hour actually introduced a form of "Daddy! Is the caboose here yet?"

[shayfan84325]

My layout is a folded point to loop with a two-loop semi-exposed helix on one end and a furnace in the middle (it's OK to laugh).  I have to keep my trains short enough that the loco can run around it at the end of the run, so the limiting factor is a 5' run around siding.

I think the toughest effect to create in model railroading is a 70-car unit train rumbling across the Wyoming prairie.  Considering that an HO scale mile is over 60 feet, and that view encompasses a few miles of straight track and a train that is nearly a mile long, only a HUGE layout could come close to resembling it.

John Allen has been quoted as commenting that the overall effect is really what we're after, not exact duplication in miniature.  I think it's a valid perspective.

So, getting back to the original post, I think you may be right - a good length is what fits in your field of vision - as long as you can fit it onto a siding when it meets another train.

[wm3798]

My train length is limited by the tracks in my staging yard, which range from 15 to 19 cars.  Visually, I try to break up my scenery so you don't see the front and the back of the train at the same time, at least not often...

Looking at the train head on can give you a better illusion of a long train.  I shot this recently on my layout...

Same location, a few weeks ago.  The train is about 18 cars in each picture, but the number of diesels and the viewing angle trick the eye into thinking you've got 100 cars coming at you.  Your theory proves correct!

Lee 

[Dallas Model Works]

Scenery definitely does make a difference. I personally like "dense" scenery -- lots of hills, ravines, buildings, trees. I find the layering intriguing.

The key to creating the impression of a longer train is not being able to see both ends at the same time, I believe -- just as one can't with the prototype.

Between view blocks and my "fills-the-eye-at-greatest-distance" observation, I think it might be a workable solution.

[dima]

To me 15 car train is too short and not very realistic. These days real railroads run long trains. My trains are usually at least 50-60 cars long. I usually use 3, sometimes 4 locomotives on the head-end to pull them.

[Dallas Model Works]

it works , but does it stop working if you turn your head ?

I think it does because my observation was made from the greatest possible viewing distance in the layout room.

Under normal circumstances, one would be much closer to the layout/train, and thus even a prairie layout would have it's own ocular "view blocks" so to speak. Without a lot of head swivelling anyway.

View blocks created by adding various types of scenery would heighten the long train effect.

 

[Dallas Model Works]

To me 15 car train is too short and not very realistic. These days real railroads run long trains. My trains are usually at least 50-60 cars long. I usually use 3, sometimes 4 locomotives on the head-end to pull them.

What scale do you model?

 

[dima]

Sorry, forgot to mention - HO.

[Dallas Model Works]

Sorry, forgot to mention - HO.

I want your basement!

[philnrunt]

   wm3798- nice shots, and a good looking bridge.

   I have always found peddler freights to be as neat as endless unit trains pounding past, both have their appeal. But, on my old layout, just to see if it was more fun, one day I hooked up a 40 car train, and to be honest, it didn't add anything to the enjoyment.

   I think the type of layout you have lends itself to what train length looks best- shorter for urban switching (i.e. point to point) and longer for loops where you can just sit back and enjoy a long train passing.

   For me, 10-20 cars fill the bill.

[METRO]

I've put a lot of thought into this as I am designing my layout.  So far I've come to a series of rules to go by:

Unit Trains: Work on a ratio, a standard short unit coal train on the CP here in Milwaukee is pulled by a single AC or Evo unit.  Usually there are around 80 hoppers, so when designing my unit coal train I worked on a 4:1 ratio, an 80 car train becomes a 20 instead.

General Freight: I've seen daily freights here and many other places I've railfaned and I've seen trains from 4 cars to 120+.  Finally I decided to design my longest yard track to be only 18 cars long. However, I'm also considdering here how close towns will be spaced, and I'm thinking that the largest train on my layout should be the unit trains as well.

Passenger: Freight is actually secondary on my layout, the focus is actually a commuter line. I've studied how long prototypical consists are for commuter trains, and then realized that a platform for a 10 car train would be beyond workable.  I ended up settling on four and five car standard commuter trains.  Probably the only rule I'd go by with this one is to avoid ever using two or three car passenger trains unless that is exactly the number you want the viewer to see.  Humans naturally pick up on groupings of two and three.

Cheers!

~METRO 

[tomikawaTT]

When in doubt, follow the prototype!

My prototype was running 20 car freights and <7 car passenger consists up and down the 2.5% grade in 1964.  That's 20 4-wheel cars, not 20 100-tonners or humonguboxes.  The passenger cars were all 20 meters long.

I also noticed that there were shorter freights of up to 12 cars, pulled by lighter locos.  These turned out to be local switching turns.

Fast forward 40 years, to the design phase of the currently under construction garage filler.  A road engine plus 20 typical cars is under eight feet long.  A 12 car local with a smaller loco is under five feet long.  Hence, one staging yard is set up for eight foot trains, the other is set up for five foot trains.  So be it.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[peterjenkinson1956]

my model railroad has 11 m   passing / storage yards    approx 35 foot long....   i like to run long trains ( modern )  however when showing off my trains i run approx a dozen cars  this is because i    D O N T   want  any thing to go wrong    i once ran a 100 + car train and it went 3 trips  around before  " disaster "   my railroad is divided by view blocks only half a long train is visable ( 25 - 30 cars )....  ps   D C C   helps with long running trains   better control,,,,,,,  peter 

[Dave Vollmer]

By the way, Tony Koester discusses train length in the 2008 Model Railroad Planning.

The idea is that you need to determine train length first, and then plan your layout (and staging) accordingly.

My longest staging track is way too short.  Splitting my train can give me 20-25 cars in N, after which my door layout starts to look like a carnival train ride.

I'm thinking for "the big one" some day 25 boxcars or 30 hoppers is ideal plus 2-3 locos and a cabin.  TK mentions the effect of scale also, i.e., a 20 car train in N scale looks shorter than the same 20 car train in HO.

[CSX_road_slug]

...

I'm thinking for "the big one" some day 25 boxcars or 30 hoppers is ideal plus 2-3 locos and a cabin.  TK mentions the effect of scale also, i.e., a 20 car train in N scale looks shorter than the same 20 car train in HO.

That's a pretty good length for a 1950's-60's era train.  I model early- to mid-1990's so most of my cars are longer than 50ft, lots of auto racks and 86ft hi-cubes; this means I can only run a max of 10-12 cars plus 2 locos for that type of train.  I compensate by having limited-sight viewing areas, and running the trains extra-slow.

[BRAKIE]

Craig,Interesting topic and very thought  provoking..

I suppose one could argue one doesn't see a complete prototype train and would have a valid point.However,in our scaled down would a short train will look better on a small layout far better then a long train on that small layout.

Now on the other hand a A-B-B-A, 4-8-8-4 or 2 big SD70M-2s pulling say 12-15 cars looks out of place even on the prototype.

IMHO the train length should fit the layout and our locomotives should fit the train length regardless if the train is in our vision or not.

 

[steamage]

The longest freight train operating on my HO layout is the Chatsworth Hauler and has between 15 and 25 cars in its consist plus three diesel units for power. I don't have a yard to make up trains so the Hauler sets out and picks up 4-6 cars for the two locals that do all the switching work. Once the cars are picked up by the Hauler, they become new set-outs again. I like listening to the three diesels pulling the Hauler as they do strain under pulling because most of the freight cars have older sprung trucks.

[twhite]

I generally run freights of between 25-30 cars on my Yuba River Sub behind big steam, but for me it looks satisfactory, because the layout is broken up with cuts, tunnels and bridges, so that the entire train is seldom visible at once.  

Tom 

[PA&ERR]

My train length is constrained by the number of cars that can fit on my rail ferry the Annebelle II (the Annie Deuce for short) - 12 50 foot cars. Since all traffic enters and leaves the layout via the Annie Deuce,  it made figuring out the train length rather easy.

In comparison, the prototype Seattle and North Coast (and earlier the Milwaukee Road) service operated with two 15 car rail barges and their trains ran around 30 cars.

-George

[Dallas Model Works]

By the way, Tony Koester discusses train length in the 2008 Model Railroad Planning.

The idea is that you need to determine train length first, and then plan your layout (and staging) accordingly.

<snip>

Exactly!

But how, in the first place, does one determine what the train length can practically be in a given room, and thus my proposal.

Craig

[Dallas Model Works]

Craig,Interesting topic and very thought  provoking..

I suppose one could argue one doesn't see a complete prototype train and would have a valid point.However,in our scaled down would a short train will look better on a small layout far better then a long train on that small layout.

Now on the other hand a A-B-B-A, 4-8-8-4 or 2 big SD70M-2s pulling say 12-15 cars looks out of place even on the prototype.

IMHO the train length should fit the layout and our locomotives should fit the train length regardless if the train is in our vision or not.

Agreed.

There are a billion variables and some fudging is almost certainly necessary but perhaps a train length that "fills the eye" from the farthest point in the room might be a decent starting point when designing a layout.

 

[johncolley]

Hint! Everything is relative. Depending on what you have up front, how "long" a train is appropriate? 12-15 cars look good with a pair of geeps but woeful with four F units. Do you want the limit to be your staging tracks or A/D tracks, or view blocks. If in doubt take the time to do a mockup or visit a few clubs. The planning stage is the most important time you can spend to make a successful layout. jc5729 John Colley, Port Townsend, WA

[Autobus Prime]

To me 15 car train is too short and not very realistic. These days real railroads run long trains. My trains are usually at least 50-60 cars long. I usually use 3, sometimes 4 locomotives on the head-end to pull them.

d:

You're missing the point.  The OP isn't saying that a 15 car train is a car-for-car duplicate of a typical mainline freight.  The OP is saying that, on his layout, a train of that length succeeds in filling the scene in the same way as a real train fills its surroundings, and so looks like a long train, even if it isn't. 

The proper impression is made, at a savings of 75% of the cost and space.  Money may not be a limit for a few people, but space always is.  After all, even if you have a 40 x 50 foot room, that's only 350 HO scale acres. 

[trainnut1250]

Joe Fugate has a very in depth discussion of this in his layout design web clinic. I believe that it is available on his Siskiou Line website.

Train length is key to the design of an operating layout.  I started with my basic train length (10 cars) and designed/built the layout to operate with this factor driving most of the decisions about passsing sidings etc.  A 10 car train will be around 6 feet long in HO, 25 car trains are close to 14 feet depending on the loco.

As for the issue of small trains being unrealistic, two words:  Selective compression.  You can't fit it all anyway.  Most of us have small spaces.  Mine is 13' x 22'.  I have put a double deck in this space with a 160' mainline run.  Long trains won't fit in and look good with the ops plan I wanted.  So I am happy to compress the lentgh to get better operation and look. 

If you want to run long trains and have operations you will need space and ingenuity to make it happen.  See Joe F.s trackplan.  Also google Ric Fortin's railroad for an example of another operations based HO layout running long trains.

 One exception to this on my layout:  I do run cab forwards with reefer blocks around the lower deck, these are about 25 cars long and the train is longer than peninsula in the center of the room.  I do also have a 35' long siding in staging.  Not sure I would ever run a train that long (70 cars), but it is there. Monster truck pulls anyone??

 

Guy

[shayfan84325]

I think it also depends on the era.  Contemporary freight cars are much longer than the 36 footers of a hundred years ago.  Also, those old slide-valve steam engines could only handle about a dozen cars, tops.  For me, on my 1930-something layout, I feel that 5 to 10 car trains are just fine.