Walther's position on Kit vs Ready To Run freight & passenger cars.

[Anonymous]

For those of you whom feel manufacturer's offering ready to run equipment will not have an effect on their kit offerings, think again.

I just recieved this email message from Walther's Customer Service Department. This message was copied and paste in its' entirety here:

[Please excuse the delay in responding to your e-mail relating to
Walthers ready-to-run products vs. kits. I've been awaiting a reply
from our Marketing department.

Essentially, sir, our marketing research is showing an ever increasing
demand for ready-to-run, pre-assembled model railroad equipment. As
such, it appears as though Walthers HO freight and passenger equipment
will follow this trend. As a distributor, we will still be carrying the
kits offered by other vendors, and our CORNERSTONE SERIES line of
structures will continue to be predominantly offered in kit form.

While we regret the shift away from offering our model equipment in
kit form, it appears as though the current trend in model railroading
seems to be moving toward the "ready-to-run" items, especially amongst
newcomers to the hobby.

I hope this helps to clarify this matter for you].

I loved Walther's steam era cars and am very sorry to see this happen! Walthers is one of the premier offerers of model railroad items and there are many products of theirs I will still be purchasing, however, since my enjoyment comes from building freight and passenger cars, it is likely I will not be buying these items from them.

We, the modelling public, have shown Walther's Marketing Department the direction we want them to take, and they are simply doing so!

[sigh]

[orsonroy]

Walthers has just come out with an entire line of kits to model a pretty large steam service facility. Walthers has also recently released most of their RTR structures as kits (water tower, station, freighthouse, etc.). All new Walthers "RTR" freight cars need extensive work to add and paint handrails. Walthers undecs only come with parts loose in a bag....

How is this the death of kits again?

[Anonymous]

This topic's question was specifically about rolling stock and Walther's response has been specific to Freight Cars and Passenger Cars. It is my experianced opinion that when you have the largest producers of these items seeing a trend and responding to that trend by producing ready to run items and (in the case of Walther's, dropping kit rolling stock from their product line altogether) you have a shift in the direction of the hobby!

The end of kits, has certainly not happened, yet. However, as I have stated, I really liked Walther's steam era freight cars kits and these kits are no longer available.

The other thing I stated is; "We, the modelling public, have shown Walther's Marketing Department the direction we want them to take, and they are simply doing so"!

This ain't "Rocket Surgery", The manufacturer's will respond to what we (as model railroader's) want!

So, what do you want?

[Anonymous]

[banghead][2c][soapbox] Kits! Kits! Kits! I want the best of both worlds, I want to be able to put together a kit ala Proto 2000 kits, but I also want to be able to have the choice. I guess that one vote isn't going to change Walther's perspective. As a Business Administration major, I can understand their position. As a modeller, I still want my kits!

[nfmisso]

People;

The best way to vote is with your $$$, buy kits; especially support Accurail, Bowser, Branchline, Stewart - and any other that you can think of that do not offer RTR.

[brothaslide]

I tried to find an Athearn Gunderson Maxi III intermodal kit and I can only find the RTR version at the LHS. I can still find the kit on e-bay but my concern is that only the RTR will be offered in the future. There is about a $20 difference between the kit and the RTR model.

[CNJ831]

I think something that posters continually miss in these discussions is the possibility that these so-called "trends" in the hobby toward RTR manufacturers report can be, and likely are, seriously skewed. This peception of RTR being in high demand can easily be created by just a small percentage of hobbyists who are well off and are spending big bucks on a monthly basis. If you have two modelers that purchase 20 RTR cars this month vs. 10 more typical guys who buy one kit each over the same period, the resulting sales data shows a dramatic tendency toward RTR being in demand. But, in fact, it's only in demand by 20% of modelers. In the long run, the countless average modelers come up with the short end of the stick if kits are dropped in favor of RTR. It's that easy to develop misleading statistics. If you are willing to subscribe to such an idea, then you can see that a tiny minority in the hobby could turn it completely topsy turvy.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

30 or 40 years ago U.S. Auto makers more or less said "We are going to make the cars that We want to make. If you don't want them, too bad. After people started buying imports they started to listen. But they are still paying the price. I think in a few years kits will be back.

[cacole]

Remember, too, that Athearn, Bowser and Accurail kits are made in the USA. Where are Walthers and other kits made? Probably overseas. Everything I have seen in the Walthers line is now made in China. My worst experience was with some Walthers husky-stack kits that were so poorly engineered that they would not go around a 26 inch radius without derailing because the trucks couldn't take the radius without the wheels hitting the center sill. Athearn husky-stack kits never had that problem.

[orsonroy]

I thought that most of the injection molding done for Walthers was done in Denmark? At least, that's where all their structures are made (Heljan).

And I believe that Athearn has already moved most of their tooling and moldmaking to China. All their RTR assembly is done there (as well as Intermountain's).

There are still plenty of companies that make kits. Accurail, Bowser and Branchline ONLY make kits. Red Caboose stocks kits, even though most of their molds go to producing RTR these days (assembled in China too, I think). Life Like Proto still makes kits. Roundhouse is still mostly a kit manufacturer. And I notice that no one's mentioned RESIN, which will only ever be available as kits.

RTR isn't a fad; it's been with us since the beginning of the hobby (ever heard of a Lionel boxcar kit?). One trend I see that's aiding the new success of RTR is the high quality of the models. Having a RTR Athearn car is no big deal. I personally compare those cars to that of Bachmann or the Life Like toy train stuff. But lots of modelers like the new generation of accurate models, but have neither the time, skill or motor control to build lots of them. So they buy RTR.

I buy RTR freight cars and engines. I like having proto specific equipment, but don't have the time to build hundreds of mostly accurate cars to populate my layout. So I buy mostly correct RTR cars when they come out (about half the releases qualify here. The others are still mostly wrong), weather them, and say "good enough". This leaves me lots more time to build other kits (resin and others), superdetail steam, and actually build a layout.

[Anonymous]

As one famous Revolutionary said "Give me kits, or give me death"

Oh, he did'nt quite say it that way, did he?

[}:)][;)][;)]

[Anonymous]

And those RTR kits have a higher profit margin as well. Thus, the manufacturer sees even more than a 2 to 1 preference because he is looking at revenue streams. I hate to point this out but the manufacturer will prefer to have those 2 guys buying more products at a bigger profit than having to deal with 10 typical guys. It's not the manufacturer's statistics which are off here, it's the exemplar given.

One of the things we can do is write the manufacturer when we see a new RTR product we like and want in kit form and ask when the kit will be available. Then buy the kit if it IS produced. This will generate the market force to keep kits. Simply not buying the RTR product won't get the message across.

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

I think something that posters continually miss in these discussions is the possibility that these so-called "trends" in the hobby toward RTR manufacturers report can be, and likely are, seriously skewed. This peception of RTR being in high demand can easily be created by just a small percentage of hobbyists who are well off and are spending big bucks on a monthly basis. If you have two modelers that purchase 20 RTR cars this month vs. 10 more typical guys who buy one kit each over the same period, the resulting sales data shows a dramatic tendency toward RTR being in demand. But, in fact, it's only in demand by 20% of modelers. In the long run, the countless average modelers come up with the short end of the stick if kits are dropped in favor of RTR. It's that easy to develop misleading statistics. If you are willing to subscribe to such an idea, then you can see that a tiny minority in the hobby could turn it completely topsy turvy.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

I think something that posters continually miss in these discussions is the possibility that these so-called "trends" in the hobby toward RTR manufacturers report can be, and likely are, seriously skewed. This peception of RTR being in high demand can easily be created by just a small percentage of hobbyists who are well off and are spending big bucks on a monthly basis. If you have two modelers that purchase 20 RTR cars this month vs. 10 more typical guys who buy one kit each over the same period, the resulting sales data shows a dramatic tendency toward RTR being in demand. But, in fact, it's only in demand by 20% of modelers. In the long run, the countless average modelers come up with the short end of the stick if kits are dropped in favor of RTR. It's that easy to develop misleading statistics. If you are willing to subscribe to such an idea, then you can see that a tiny minority in the hobby could turn it completely topsy turvy.

CNJ831

CNJ,
Excellent point, let me add a thought. In your hypothesis, you indicate that a minority of modelers buying 20 RTR kits, while they are outnumbered by the majority buying 1 kit each during the same time frame.

While your projection is absolutely accurate, and is probably a major problem in the trending statistic, the "minority" are counted by Gross Profit. (I am chuckling, with you because this is exactly what happens as you stated with statistics.) It is absolutely the Majority of income, and unfortunately, you can't run a business on anything else. If those two modelers are buying more RTR (which has a higher price, and most likely a higher margin due to turn,) they ARE the market, just as you indicate. But, because kits are typically less expensive, the cash flow being measured has a much more drastic difference than originally perceived.

In my opinion, it is worse than originally proposed, and I believe that in and of itself makes a statement. I have found that RTR are marketed better, and are more appealing when initially shopping. It allows immediate gratification, less stress, clearer image of the finished product, etc... I think it is also the responsibility of the Hobby and the Manufacturers to show people why kits are much more versatile, and the ultimate American need, much more unique. We are a society that wants to make every aspect of our life as identifiable to us as we can. From custom options on vehicles, to ring tones and housings on cell phones (which raise prices dramatically over "RTR" equipment in those ares.)

So in summary, perhaps the future is a combination of RTR with conversion kits and customizable options. But it requires people in the hobby and coming to the hobby to be given better information / marketing about the advantages of kits. Kits are a daunting option, and I believe some are way to advanced and may over challenge beginners, thereby making them very anxious about purchasing kits in the future. Perhaps a difficulty level or some rating should be devised. This may help "re-introduce," beginers to value and feel less intimidated by kits.

[CNJ831]

Nscaler and mdemt's positions are well taken and were also appreciated by me but omitted for the sake of brevity in my earlier post. The tragedy in all of this is that when (and if) RTR becomes THE market, catering to a small percentage of hobbyists that seem to drive the market, it serves to hasten the demise of the hobby as a whole. Just take a look at what happened to brass. Once, 40 years ago, it involved perhaps half of all modelers (say 50K to 75k of them). Today, although certainly more profitable to the manufacturer, probably no more than 1,000 hobbyists participate in that area with any regularity. Raise the prices much more for brass and interest it will all but completely die out. It would be sad to see the rest of the hobby go that way too but I assure you, there are a great many of us who will never be willing to pay $40+ for a RTR freight car. Try running a full service hobby, and particularly selling its associated month magazines, if hobbyist numbers drop under 25K or 35k.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

I think the brass subject unerscores the subject beautifully. I consider myself to be on the "newer" edge of modeller, (although I support my LHS with undying allegience unlike the even newer breed of modeler's that have come along.)

I never got into brass because it looks too complicated. (Frankly it scares the living daylights out of me.) Now if the brass manufacturers sent an example of their product in the stages of paint, and sat that on top of a display of starter kits and vital components. I would have felt a lot more confident and began my experimenting. But even as I write this, I can't understand how to take the brass shell, assemble it, attach details, and paint it. Heck, the last time I tried to "letter" a plastic car, it looked like a 5 year old did it.

The same could be said of the kitbashing components. I have seen a couple of articles, but when I go to buy some parts, there are a ton of "little" parts sitting next to kits that show complete designs step A to Z. I keep picking up the darn kits and still have not gotten into kitbashing.

I know this sounds silly, to be able to logically talk about something that should not be intimidating and yet still be intimidated. However, it is about the marketing. My hobby shop couldn't dream of keeping enough inventory to "display" the wall components, brass components, and kit details in a manner that my simple mind can make sense of, let alone have all of this in the many scales he caters to. But the manufacturers could easily send out combination displays at a decreased price, (I know this because I own a business that deals with technology, all of our manufacturers offer this for various products.)

However, this very forum is part of the answer. You have forced me to look at my ignorance. I cannot stand being defeated. So I will make it a point to buy and complete a brass steamer in the next six months.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brothaslide

I tried to find an Athearn Gunderson Maxi III intermodal kit and I can only find the RTR version at the LHS. I can still find the kit on e-bay but my concern is that only the RTR will be offered in the future. There is about a $20 difference between the kit and the RTR model.

I agree with you. I've seen the new RTR Maxi IIIs listed in magazine adverts - they're going to be at least twice the price of the kit versions over here. Given that loading one of these costs at least another £40, assuming you just use Walthers 40ft and 48ft containers - mine cost a little more to complete as I used some Walthers 20ft containers and a couple of Athearn 53ft ones to add a little variety - I won't be able to afford to buy and load one of the new RTR examples. RTR makes sense in some cases, but I feel that kits are equally important if not more so. Guess I'll have to keep an eye on eBay for unmade examples. I've been buying up old stock of Walthers 5-unit spine cars recently as these are apparently to be discontinued - luckily my LHS still has a decent supply!

[Anonymous]

I would like to compliment all the people who responded to this subject. There were some very well thought out comments and they were all interesting. Personally I think Athearn will phase out kits sooner or later. There is more profit to be made selling
R-T-R models. It may take awhile, but it will happen. I was at a large train show in the Baltimore area and there were plenty of kits available, but there weren't any new offerings.(I'm speaking about Athearn) It was just the same stuff that has been available for years. Plus the number of other manufactures with R-T-R was greater than I have ever seen before.

Jim

[Anonymous]

You would think that Athearn and other manufactures would listen to some of the comments their customers are making on these forums. From some of the comments it's like you will get RTR and like it so deal with it. Fact is I have quite a few cars and do not really need any more. Key word here being NEED. Some companies forget they are competing for the leasure dollar of which I can spend on other things beside a product that does not interest me or fit my likings. One good thing about modeling certain time periods is that once you get the basic building blocks you can pick and choose what you really need. Guess this means I can spend more dollars with Woodland Scenics until they find a way to make their products RTR which I doubt will happen.

RMAX

[dharmon]

I have many Walthers as well as Athearn models that were kits and and have been quite pleased with them. I am a kit person myself and enjoy running things that I built. I am disappointed in the RTR trend, not because of the quality, since the level of detail on today's RTR is comparable or better than the brass of ten- fifteen years ago, but because firms are phasing out the kits in favor of RTR. The has always been a place, call it a balance between kits and RTR, but until recently RTR has been the lesser of the two in details. What concerns me, other than the numbers of kits available is the long term effect on the smaller companies which make the detail parts that turn the plain into unique. The level of detail on the RTR means folks won't need the detail parts and with fewer kits...the demand gets lower ...then there gone. Hopefully someone will start up another Rail Power type company (since Athearn bought them before they were sold) to cater to the kit seekers and model builders and help to keep the detail makers going.
With the prices of locos and stock going up and fewer kits on the shelves, I've been seeking out older used stuff and reworking/kitbashing/redetailing them. I think I've actually done more "modelling" recently than before.

[Anonymous]

Obviously, I model N scale and have had to deal with RTR for a very long time. Kits for rolling stock are virtually non-existant. I see three problems with the supply now. First, the tendency to produce limited edition items exclusively ( in the case of MicroTrains items this isn't as important now as we are seeing reissues with different road numbers and this may even be good). Second, the lack of undecorated items. And, third, many of the RTR items are built in such a way as to be virtually impossible to take apart to modify. Add to this the prices and it really slows down the industry. I used to buy 4 or five Microtains cars a month. Now I have more income to spend but find my self buying 4 or 5 cars a year. Now the price of the cars has gone up 5 to 6 times what it was but the result of looking at that price makes me really consider whether I "need" that car rather than whether I "want" it and as a result I only spend about half what I used to.

What I do find is that I now spend a lot more time scratch building and learning core modeling skills which is making my finally developing layout more unique and is really making me a better modeler. But it is definately not helping the industry.

[IRONROOSTER]

Model railroad manufacturers make what sells, they are a business. Unfortunately the kits don't offer enough of an advantage. The detail level on the RTR is the equivalent of the kits and the price differential is not enough to discourage folks from buying. While, I think there will always be kits, this will become the niche market in the hobby. Future kits will be for specific prototypes that don't have enough market to justify a mass market run of RTR. What I miss is the passing of the wood kits - there seems to be fewer and fewer each year. The old metal kits seem to be all gone except for some locomotives (Bowser and ???). If you like kits you had better buy as many as you can afford now. Personally, I'm always watching out for the old kits at the train shows, but being in S scale now I don't see many.
Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

personaly i like it becuase i don't have time to assmemble all the parts. but as for atheran kits i love. Same for accurail, and MDC

[Anonymous]

mdemt,
The few brass pieces I have purchased were ready to run, abeit either laquared brass or factory or custom painted. There is no assembly. Also, they come very "road specific". I mean, I model Northern Pacific, and purchase items which have been modelled after N.P. prototypes, so no super detailing is involved. That's one of the beauties of brass, you don't need to kit ba***o get what you want. Now, if your talking about disassembly previous to painting or simply painting the item, there are painters that can do this for you. Also, brass holds, and in some cases can appreciate in value. Maybe one of the detriments to brass is that it can be an investment. Therefore you bring collectors into the market and this can inflate prices.

CNJ831 stated above that they didn't think there were more than 1,000 people whom participate in brass in the country. I would guess this to be an understatement! There are generally between 800-1,000 brass pieces for sail on Ebay, alone, let alone the other hobby shops which deal in brass.

[Roadtrp]

I think at the end of the day supply and demand will save the kits. If fewer and fewer manufacturers are making kits, someone will see an open market and step in to fill demand. Unfortunately, the kits will probably cost more than they do today because of the lack of competing manufactures. They will become a premium priced specialty item, and those who truly love kit-building will provide a ready market. Those who were just looking for low price will switch over to Bachmann RTR.

[Anonymous]

So, you don't purchase the brass loco unpainted, and without details... Wow, I see these photos and a an occasional article, and they always left me with the impression that it literally looks "brass," and you have to paint it and attach parts, etc...

I guess that says something about the marketing. Because I never looked any further, I just mentally dismissed it based on those first impressions years ago!

I have made attempts in recent years to go back through things like this in my life and get over my issues with them. I formed uneducated opinions, and really narrowed my choices. Thanks for the info.

[Anonymous]

mdemt,
The laquared finish is clear so the brass shows through. But, yes, the piece comes completely super detailed. I paint my brass pieces myself, using a brush which I am sure people will think low quality. However, I am very happy with the outcome! Having a custom painter do the job is not cheap.

If your interested in taking on a steam locomotive project, why not build an MDC or Bowser loco? Possibly you already have. Good luck in what ever you try.

[dknelson]

A Walthers kit, and I am not speaking of the plastic freight cars of 10 years ago but the wood and metal passenger and freight cars of 40 years ago, was a real challenge. Among other things you had to shape the roof to fit the end of the car. Challenging, fun but .... I agree with Walthers, most modelers today do not have these skills. Assembling parts of a structure kit is NOT the same thing by the way.
Years ago I went to Terminal Hobby Shop (Walthers retail outlet in Milwaukee) with a large order for small parts. The clerk tallied up my order and remarked "We don't see many people building stuff any more." The handwriting was on the wall 20 years ago (back when Walthers still manufactured their line in Milwaukee).
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

[}:)] Oh boy. Another place where I can stir up the pot. RTR has it's place and it does satisfy the need for instant
gratification and the recent entries are really nice BUT, where is the need for real artistry? Well, for one thing, RTR cars etc. never pass from my hands to the layout without being "adjusted", "changed" "modified" etc. This really helps me expand my knowledge AND my abilities. I buy the cheaper offerings in both RTR and kits and then take them apart and put them together to MY satisfaction. It's called kit-bashing. It's almost as satisfying as scratchbuilding.

JR

[Anonymous]

This thread is almost one year old. There have been many postings to other threads on this subject since and as you all may know, I am still interested in this subject as I FEEL it is relevant to the direction this hobby is heading.

I got this note from Red Caboose on January 12th, 2005. The fellow gave me his permission to post his response on this forum. Here is Red Caboose's opinion on the direction of the hobby:

Hi,
Presently we still offer kits on most HO production runs. Unfortunately most dealers will not buy them for stock and only buy them if specifically ordered by a customer (so we have been told by most dealers). Presently when a production run is done of a RTR car we are making as few as 36 kits or as many as 150 kits.

Some road names and kits do sell well while others (with prototypical names on prototypical cars) just sit, seems to be just who wants to buy what. Some of our best selling kits are actually on prototypical cars but the paint scheme is not correct for that car.


Our SP sugar beet cars are a good example of what happens on long term cars. All RTR sugar beet cars are sold out when they arrive. We made 75+ kits with each run for the consumers who love to build kits. Over the past two years we have seen a decline from 150 kits sold to no sales. One production run back, about 8 months ago, the kit number had been dropping on the cars so we brought in 60 kits. As of today's count we still have 12 units left after 8 months. The last production run of these cars we also had 60 cars set aside for kits. Just before production we still had not received one kit order so all 60 were added to the RTR production. We did not get one request for the kits and all 60 add on RTR 'kits' were sold out prior to delivery. Not our choice but the modelers voted with their reservations and wallets.

Recently we released a HO coil car and it is available in RTR decorated and RTR painted gray only. The reason for this is that the walkway has to be mounted by a plastic welder at the factory and I am sure that most modelers do not have this expense tool.

So, there are my comments on kits with the summary: We will continue to make them, even in small runs as long as people buy them but when the selling quantities get even lower than 36 units or take forever to sell through we will need to stop.

Your comments back are welcomed.

Best regards,
Bill McClung
Red Caboose

[jsoderq]

One more thing that has not been pointed out yet. As a former employee of two large American HO manufacturers, I can tell you for certain there are a lot more secondary problems with kits. We had one employee working full time to satisfy customer requests for - "missing parts"-" wrong parts" "parts not painted" "damaged parts" etc etc etc. The list and the amount of calls/mail was endless. In some cases, yes it was the manufacturers fault - in others, I'm sure many parts were lost/ damaged by the customer. You'd be surprised how many requests for wheels and trucks ???? Many kits, not all the parts are painted (underbodys for example). Other "requests" were for pieces that were never part of the kit (windows for example). While there are still problems with RTR they are nowhere near the level of the kit business.