Midnight Railroader wrote: concretelackey wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote: luvadj wrote: Working in customer service all my life, the customer is always right. ... I let them have the floor unless he's suggesting something outside of my shop...then the harsh comments from me are no holds barred. At that point, he's taking food out of my mouth, so to speak.So then, the customer is NOT always right.I'd say at the point of when purchasing outside of a shop I owned/operated became the topic (other than my suggestions of checking here or there) then the suggestor is no longer my customer but an agent of the competitionWait, so if I'm shopping (and buying) at your store and someone asks about a product you don't have but I know someone else in town does, when I point this out I become an "agent of the competition?"
concretelackey wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote: luvadj wrote: Working in customer service all my life, the customer is always right. ... I let them have the floor unless he's suggesting something outside of my shop...then the harsh comments from me are no holds barred. At that point, he's taking food out of my mouth, so to speak.So then, the customer is NOT always right.I'd say at the point of when purchasing outside of a shop I owned/operated became the topic (other than my suggestions of checking here or there) then the suggestor is no longer my customer but an agent of the competition
Midnight Railroader wrote: luvadj wrote: Working in customer service all my life, the customer is always right. ... I let them have the floor unless he's suggesting something outside of my shop...then the harsh comments from me are no holds barred. At that point, he's taking food out of my mouth, so to speak.So then, the customer is NOT always right.
luvadj wrote: Working in customer service all my life, the customer is always right. ... I let them have the floor unless he's suggesting something outside of my shop...then the harsh comments from me are no holds barred. At that point, he's taking food out of my mouth, so to speak.
Working in customer service all my life, the customer is always right.
...
I let them have the floor unless he's suggesting something outside of my shop...then the harsh comments from me are no holds barred. At that point, he's taking food out of my mouth, so to speak.
I'd say at the point of when purchasing outside of a shop I owned/operated became the topic (other than my suggestions of checking here or there) then the suggestor is no longer my customer but an agent of the competition
OK you got me on that point using my own words.....I should have added "I'd say at the point of when purchasing outside of a shop I owned/operated for items available thru my shop became the topic (other than my suggestions of checking here or there) then the suggestor is no longer my customer but an agent of the competition
Working in customer service all my life, the customer is always right. Weither he's first in line or second or 35th. And if a customer offers his experience or suggestion to another in my presence, I let them have the floor unless he's suggesting something outside of my shop...then the harsh comments from me are no holds barred. At that point, he's taking food out of my mouth, so to speak.
I figure, if another customer is offering advice, it's building business for me, so why not let the customers gab amongst themselves in my presence and I'll field questions or offer my expertise.
No harm, no foul...
Bob Berger, C.O.O. N-ovation & Northwestern R.R. My patio layout....SEE IT HERE
There's no place like ~/ ;)
All I can figure is that the LHS owner felt his authority and expertise were being challenged, and that's why he blew up. There's certainly nothing inherently wrong with your suggestion, and an attempt to help, even unsolicited, never warrants yelling. I wouldn't expect a reaction like that in normal social discourse, much less from someone trying to maintain a customer base. His backstory and the stressors in his personal life are immaterial; we all have problems, and if we took them out on everyone we met, society would break down (just look at YouTube ). In fact at my LHS, that sort of conversation is expected.
I'm fortunate as well in having numerous train stores to choose from, so I don't stick around if I'm not treated well. I've never had an experience that bad, but there was one shop near my old job that I would frequent with a friend from work. There were never any customers, yet the owner was always too busy with his computer to help, so we found another store with a friendly owner in the next town. Over a year later, we poked our heads into the first place out of curiosity. The owner was desperate, and almost annoying in his attempts to help us. Soon after the store closed. A shame really, because he had a nice place, but no one likes to be ignored.
Now if someone can please explain some of the grumpy old coots who frequent train shows who do nothing but gripe every year about how poorly they're doing, then act like they're doing you a favor when they sell you something, I'd be much obliged.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
TheK4Kid wrote: My Dad tught me long ago, The CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT,EVEN IF HE IS 100 PERCENT WRONG!
Formerly a hobby shop manager, I will make a case for the other side. First, YOU were not the customer, so "the customer is always right" does not apply. Second, much as you may believe in your own expertise, you are not always right. This is a real problem with some model railroaders who think they are experts in the hobby. Unless you know the shop owner well, it is never proper to stick your nose in his business. Unfortunately in model railroading, many think they must have the latest and greatest which is not always the case. Many times "butt-in customers" will extole the virtues of "x, y, or z" when such is not required for the actual customer. Upgrading a beginner to Red Caboose kits may well not be in the best interest of the customer. You might be surprised at how many times that actually happens. In fact, this seems to be a fatal flaw in model railroading, that so many are "experts". Remember, in any situation, "your mileage may vary". Things do not always have to be "your way or the highway".
As for as " so and so does the trains" it is often the case that a certain employee has knowledge in a certain area, and rather than disseminate wrong information, it is better to leave the opportunity to the person with the proper knowledge. In fact many shop employees are put to work because they are quite knowledgeable in certain areas. You would not want to buy a new car from the janitor of a car dealership. As far as mentioning the car dealership, try sticking your nose in a transaction there and see how fast you are given the "bum's rush" or another salesman will leap in to separate you from the real customer. In any business, it is never proper to butt in.
While I agree the situation seems harsh, think of the other side. Try butting in the preacher's sermon on Sunday, or giving advice to a doctor who is consulting with a patient.
vsmith wrote:I have no idea, nor did I care, as the owner said it was none of my business so I was out the door, in my car and down the street before you could count to 10.
I believe I might have left some tire marks on his driveway. I don't believe I have ever seen or heard of such treatment, at least, not at any kind of shop. Now, maybe you were or were not out of line with your interjection, but I have to side with you when you say there is a right and wrong way to handle it. Of course, you were the recipient of the wrong way. The right way would have been something more along the lines of "Please, sir, do not interrupt". I admit, I might feel excluded from the conversation, but not so much so that I would walk away from a sale (on those grounds alone). I guess it's a good thing I live near Atlanta, and I have a pretty good LHS I visit fairly often. Fair discounts, generally good customer service (most of the time, if they aren't too busy), special orders if needed, and usually stock nearly anything I want. Since advertising is prohibited on the forum, email me if anyone is interested.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
loathar wrote:All kidding aside. That was unacceptable treatment no matter what his cranky mood. I would not have been as polite as you. I wish you would post what shop it was. Might save me or someone else from having a bad mail order experience.I would have at least said a few 4 letter words to the guy before I left.
I would have at least said a few 4 letter words to the guy before I left.
Posting the name of the LHS may save a fellow modeler the same awful treatment. Besides that the guy...assuming he was the proprietor, does not deserve to be in business.
vsmith wrote:the main reason I'm not posting the name is that I do not truely know all the reasons why the guy was in such a mood, he may have just had lousy christmas, sales wise and was just in a sour mode. I know others who have frequented the place regularly and have nothing but good things to say about it, so I'm willing to take the high road and give the guy the benefit of the doubt, maybe I just got him on a bad day, maybe he's ill, family issues, I just dunno...
I know others who have frequented the place regularly and have nothing but good things to say about it, so I'm willing to take the high road and give the guy the benefit of the doubt, maybe I just got him on a bad day, maybe he's ill, family issues, I just dunno...
NOPE! I don't care if he was suffering from Malaria, had not sold a thing since October, wife is leaving him, kids hate his guts...I don't care what his problems are. Whatever his problem...Bi-polar disorder etc. it is NEVER the customers problem. The idea that he yelled at you like that...the things he said... if I had been you...I might be in jail right now. If I had been the customer he was talking to, I likely would have told him that he likely just lost your business but he sure as heck just lost my business and the business of anyone I can influence in the future. This guy does not deserve the benefit of the doubt for anything! I have walked out of stores to never return because a manager treated staff in a rude manner like that. In the case of a customer...well I just can't believe he did that. Talk about stupid.
For myself. I am done with the LHS. They are gouging the heck out of me. I just bought a box of midwest roadbed from the LHS for $67.99 I could have got the same thing from an online shop in the US for less than $40 shipped to my door! I can buy an Atlas code 100 snap switch for $10.99 from Standard Hobby Supply. They shipped it to me after I ordered it at the beginning of December. I unrealistically asked if they could have it here in time for Christmas...fully expecting it to arrive mid January. I picked it up from the Post Office on December 24th. The one LHS wanted $24.95 for one Atlas Snap Switch. Even with shipping I figure I ended up paying less than half. The other LHS, (that I have already suspended dealings with over bad customer service and attitude) was a couple bucks cheaper.
I only bought the roadbed from the LHS because I assumed it would not arrive in time for Xmas and that the shipping from the States would be killer. After I got a shipping quote from Standard Hobby I saw I was dead wrong about the price. My Standard Hobby Supply experience was better than any shopping experience I have ever had at the LHS ever since my original LHS disappeared oh like 25-30 years ago. That old fellow passed on and it hasn't been close to decent ever since.
vsmith wrote: KingConrail76 wrote: Just out of curiousity, did the other patron leave shortly after you? or did they actually continue with their business?I have no idea, nor did I care, as the owner said it was none of my business so I was out the door, in my car and down the street before you could count to 10.
KingConrail76 wrote: Just out of curiousity, did the other patron leave shortly after you? or did they actually continue with their business?
Just out of curiousity, did the other patron leave shortly after you? or did they actually continue with their business?
I have no idea, nor did I care, as the owner said it was none of my business so I was out the door, in my car and down the street before you could count to 10.
Assuming I hadn't earlier established an amicable relationship with that then-rude fellow, my reaction (put the goodies down and walk out) would probably be the same as yours. You're fortunate to live in a LHS-rich environment.
Mark
vsmith wrote: This was no kid, it was the owner, an older guy.The funny thing is that the guy he was takling to was doubting he could make use of the closet space he had avalable...IOWs a no-sale, and all I was going to suggest was a couple ways he could have utilized the space he had...like a point to point, or a fold-down layout that could have yeilded a much larger layout than otherwise possible, IOWs I was trying to HELP the owner make a SALE, cause the guy was going to have to get all that track somewhere now wasn't he ...and I got stung for my efforts.
This was no kid, it was the owner, an older guy.
The funny thing is that the guy he was takling to was doubting he could make use of the closet space he had avalable...IOWs a no-sale, and all I was going to suggest was a couple ways he could have utilized the space he had...like a point to point, or a fold-down layout that could have yeilded a much larger layout than otherwise possible, IOWs I was trying to HELP the owner make a SALE, cause the guy was going to have to get all that track somewhere now wasn't he ...and I got stung for my efforts.
Maybe the owner had the guy sold on a basement empire till you said a closet would work.
All kidding aside. That was unacceptable treatment no matter what his cranky mood. I would not have been as polite as you. I wish you would post what shop it was. Might save me or someone else from having a bad mail order experience.I would have at least said a few 4 letter words to the guy before I left.
Have fun with your trains
markpierce wrote: Why are people so reluctant to identify who they think are "bad characters" as in naming the specific LHS providing a bad experience? Other people might even come to the LHS's defense who have only positive experience, etc. Regardless, full disclosure has benefits over directionless whining.Mark
Why are people so reluctant to identify who they think are "bad characters" as in naming the specific LHS providing a bad experience? Other people might even come to the LHS's defense who have only positive experience, etc. Regardless, full disclosure has benefits over directionless whining.
Mark, the main reason I'm not posting the name is that I do not truely know all the reasons why the guy was in such a sh**y mode, he may have just had a lousy christmas sales wise and was just in a sour mode.
...but that doesnt take away my right to no longer patronize the place. Besides I'm more interested in discussing if such bad behavior is more that the occasional isolated incident but a true reason why people dont frequent the LHS anymore.
I understand why this may be so now, the first thing the missus said was "Why dont you just buy on-line?" well I actually like interacting with people and not waiting for the shipping delay, but I can understand why poor service coupled with a viable alternative could kill the LHS.
My story was meant to be the example, not the discussion itself.
selector wrote: It was wrong of him to treat you that way.It was also wrong of you to interject yourself in a conversation between that person and a customer.You were wrong initially, and then he compounded the wrong by responding as he did.Poo happens.
It was wrong of him to treat you that way.
It was also wrong of you to interject yourself in a conversation between that person and a customer.
You were wrong initially, and then he compounded the wrong by responding as he did.
Poo happens.
Yes I admited that in my initial post, I saw that and even apologized but as I said the responce seemed far in excess of the infraction. My apology did nothing and thats why I politely left the shop. But how many here have offered advice in similar situations? It could have been handled far better....not screaming at a paying customer.
I have since remembered why for years and years I was such a Lone Wolf model RRer. Too many angry people out there, I usually always kept that its better to shut up and keep to yourself than to try to interact with others who may not want to deal with any outsiders, this was learned from several bad interactions I had forgotten in previous years long ago when I was in HO. In fact it was a primary reason for dumping the scale and the entire hobby for about 10 years. I have since gotten too used to the people I usually interact with in my scale today, which is large scale, I have never had such a reaction in the last 7 years I've been doing it. Everyone from dealers to fellow hobbiest have all been very amiable, this incedent has brought all up all that past to the surface again. I guess I wont make that mistake ever again when dealing with some shops and will keep my mouth shut and limit my interactions to the net.
Isnt there something very sad to say about our hobby in that last statement?
Vsmith,
You've a lot more self control than I.
Personally, if I were in your shoes, I'd have no remorse for posting that shops name all over the Internet. That is, right after busting him in the chops...if not pysically, than at least verbally.
wheeler wrote:Dinosaurs- That is what I call them. Things change, Demographics, the Economy, Big Box Stores, and 100 other things. Crappy service is the most notable. Maybe like the Dinosaurs, they blissfully do not know their days are numbered.Before I bought a DCC controller, I asked to see a demo of the Digitrax at the local place. "so and so" does those- he's not here. (how hard can it be to test run the DISPLAY TRACK??)So I asked which one is the most popular- "we sell all kinds"Talking Dinosaurs- I left and will buy mine online.....
Dinosaurs- That is what I call them. Things change, Demographics, the Economy, Big Box Stores, and 100 other things. Crappy service is the most notable. Maybe like the Dinosaurs, they blissfully do not know their days are numbered.
Before I bought a DCC controller, I asked to see a demo of the Digitrax at the local place. "so and so" does those- he's not here. (how hard can it be to test run the DISPLAY TRACK??)
So I asked which one is the most popular- "we sell all kinds"
Talking Dinosaurs- I left and will buy mine online.....
Hi wheeler,
Yes, I've heard this to at our LHS, "so and so does the trains", I'm the RC car guy.Makes you just not ever want to go back.( these are mostly young kids working in this lHS who tell you these kinds of things.) There's a few "old geezers" like me who work in there part time also, and they're the only ones with knowledge of everything to some extent, and who strive to make customers happy.The young ones haven't a clue about how to take care of customers, haven't a clue what life's all about, and mostly don't care.
TheK4kid
I can understand how you feel. I patronize a LHS becuase it is essentialy the only game in town anymore.Anyway, there are people working in it who haven't a clue about customer service, and there are people totally dedicated to their customers.People range from A to Z as far as personalities, ego's etc goes.
I suppose you could have said to these guys "Excuse me, but may I join your conversation or offer some advice?My Dad tught me long ago, The CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT,EVEN IF HE IS 100 PERCENT WRONG!
There are young people working in this LHS who haven't developed "people skills" which come with time, sometimes they are there simply to make a few bucks and get discounts on their own hobby supplies.I know they tend to tick me off sometimes with their snide remarks.I think Dale Carnegie courses should be MANDATORY in High Schools!Maybe some of these kids would actually learn something about life!(By the way, two of these kids in the LHS asked me who Dale Carnegie was)Yes the hobby shop is a service business, but some people haven't a clue!As far as this guy who yelled at you, he lacks in "people skills" and deserves to lose your business.Maybe I sound like Andy Rooney, but these are my opinions.
TheK4Kid
Not an excuse for his/her behavior BUT maybe he was on the wrong end of a bad holiday sales season. Lets assume his sales are below projected expectations for the year and that this years Christmas sales period was another disappointment. Add what most likely was 2 days with more returns/exchanges than actual new sales and he could be a bit grumpy.
IF that was the case I still would not return there except to return all unopened purchases for a full CASH refund (yes, I've done that before at a MAJOR national appliance/department store chain with quite a few thousand dollars of new appliances with the simple reason that the idiot in electronics said he did not have time to look in the stockroom for some COAX cable) and never return there again. And even then I might walk in on a slow evening and browse around until he asked if I needed help and then ask how close the next nearest hobby shop was just to drive home the point that there was an attitude adjustment needed.
OK I have to relate a bad experience today at a LHS. This was at an old established LHS easterly of my abode that I shall not name, its NOT the very well known one nearist by me, I was in buying some track and stuff, while I was looking at some stuff in a display case, the owner and a guy standing next to me got into a discussion about the prospects of building a layout inside a small walk-in closet, I was standing right next to them listening, it wasnt like I was invisible, well they hadnt gotten to far into it when I offered "Could you do a point to point shelf layout?" When the owner turned and YELLED LOUDLY at me
"WHY DONT YOU TALK TO HIM THEN!, WHO ASKED YOU TO BUTT IN!, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!"
Well, I was shocked ( so was everyone else in the place) then quickly replied, calmly: "Your right, Sir, I intruded in your conversation and I apologize, it wont happen again" He yelled something else, I finished..."have a good day sir" put down my stuff and walked out of there, I will NEVER return after such shoddy abusive treatment.
Now I'm not angry, I'm not hurt, but I am still amazingly shocked that I, a customer with product in hand I was about to pay for, was on the recieving end of such disreputable treatment. Now maybe I was sticking my nose into where it wasnt wanted, that was my fault, I had forgotten how bloody miserable some people in this hobby can be (I'm too used to all the nice folk I chat with online), but it seamed to me as a customer and fellow hobbiest who just wanted to help, that the responce was far harsher than the infraction. I will NEVER return to that shop for 2 reasons:
1. The shear unprofessionalism of if it has me irked. and
2. If he treats a customer who dared to offer an opinion inside his sacred realm this badly, what treatment would I recieve if, God Forbid, I ever had to return something.
The other thing that blows my mind, is that there is NOTHING, NOTHING, in this store I could not get elsewhere (3 other places in fact, not to mention on-line), in fact after I left I drove about 20 minutes farther east to another smaller LHS and got everything I would have gotten at shop #1, even had a nice chat with guy there. I only went to shop #1 because it was on the way to another place I was going to go after.
--------------------------------------------------------
Now for discussion:
I remember reading here about the root causes of the Demise of the LHS, many referred to the impact of the Internet on the bottom line as "murdering" the LHS, and I dont doubt that it is a strong reason for the loss of many LHSs, but after today I had to ponder about the others who wrote about having recieved similar shoddy treatment from LHSs across the country and that they stopped patronizing those shops. Well after today I understand 100% where they were coming from.
Hobby shops are a SERVICE business, where the customer should be king, however I now comprehend those who talked about feeling as if they were "intruding" when they patronized some shops, even recieving similar abuse. So I wanted to see how many others also feel that a major reason we are losing hobby shops is more due to many small self inflicted wounds, a self inflicted "suicide" if you will, like this incident, than to due with any loss of business thru the internet.
Lets keep the names of any actual shops out of it as its really not the issue.
As for me I will continue to patronize the 3 other shops in my area that I have always been treated fairly at.