Bad LHS Experience and the Demise of LHS, Murder or Suicide?

[riogrande5761]

What I would do if I were you is write a letter to the owner of the hobby shop and explain tactfully and politely how you felt as a customer being treated in those circumstances.  Explain that you are pleased to do business but expect to be treated with common courtesy and respect and if you can't be treated that way, you will let anyone know who is interested how you were treated and suggest that all your aquaintences may want to take their business else where.  ie, you want to make it clear to him that you will NOT be good word of mouth references to his shop, and if anything will steer people clear of him.  I wouldn't put a return address on the envelope if you suspect him to be and irrational hot head.  Then leave it rest.

Just like in any other endevour, good behavior and practices should be rewarded and bad penalized.  If the owner of that hobby shop can't treat customers with basic courtesy and respect, then he deserves the "just" consequences and he can go out of business.  (I mean, who wants to walk into the cave of an angry bear?)  He deserves it if thats the way he treats people. 

You were not out of line by entering into the conversations either, I might add.  If they are standing around in a "public" setting, then there is nothing wrong with others joining in.

True, internet sales are hurting hobby shops but any proprieter shouldn't hamstring himself further by being rude and nasty to the people who support him financially.  That, simply put, is biting the hand that feeds you.  Yes, its a form of self destruction or suicide in the business world.

I was treated rudely by a LHS where I live, and between the fact that his discounts are just a "token" and the way I was treated, I rarely if ever darken the door there.  The way I see it, the LHS needs me more than I need him!  There are plenty of other ways I can get my toys!

[SteamFreak]

Careful now...Brakie's listening 

Hey,I admit I'm a prima donna and can be grumpy at times..I just can't stand those old farts that don't admit they are..

[vsmith]

I think it was perfectly OK of you to enter the conversation, I certainly wouldn't have minded!

How did the other customer react? 

Honestly I didnt look, I would assume shocked but I was too focused on keeping eye contact with the owner to make sure he wasnt going to swing at me as well. My entire focus was to walk out of there as politly and swiftly as I could, there was no way I was going to justify the bad behavior with any further confrontation.

[vsmith]

Customer: "'Cuse me.  I was in here the ...."

Somehow I think thats about as far as it would get conversation wise before more yelling would insue. I usually have a pretty good ability to size up other people personalities and my instict was just screaming "walk away from this nut and never go back". No need for further contact, no point, he knew *** well he lost a customer. The only thing I could do was NOT get down into the mud with him.

It really doesnt matter for me what his side is, it wont make me return to that store and my experience is 9 time out of 10 further contact, even second person like thru the mail, does NOT resolve the issue but only makes things even uglier as the other party gets even angrier and resentful of the contact. It gives their anger a purpose and a reason.

The guy is either going to get it that he blew his top and lost a customer and will try to control his temper in future transactions, or will be told by a fellow employee (I'm pretty sure the person behind the cash register was his wife) that he blew his top and lost a customer and will get it, or when reminded by someone else that he blew his top and lost a customer, but will still not get it and yell at them also.

I'm reminded of the old saying that getting into an aurgument with a guy like this would be like wrestling a pig in the mud, sooner or later you realize the pig is probably enjoying it.

[Anonymous]

I think it was perfectly OK of you to enter the conversation, I certainly wouldn't have minded!

How did the other customer react? 

[BRAKIE]

Let me guess, he was an older fellow?

If it was, you'll have to forgive them.  Sometimes older men get a lil "grumpy" (Hence the expression "Grumpy Old Men")  Not all mind you, but some.

At my club, the grumpy ones are the older ones.  I appreciate they share the hobby with me, but man, sometimes I want to duck and run for cover.

Even at like local hobby shop where I buy like $400 worth of stuff a month, there's an older fellow there that gives me a look everytime I come in that says, "What are you doing back?"  No "Hello", no nothing other than a look.

So don't take it personal.

Careful now...Brakie's listening 

Hey,I admit I'm a prima donna and can be grumpy at times..I just can't stand those old farts that don't admit they are..

[fievel]

I find that one in ten model railroaders is nice the others should stay in their basements away from others.

I've found that as well, strange eh.

I would go with fewer grouches and jerks in the equation, but I know what you're talking about. One thing I'll probably never understand is why someone  could be unhappy in a hobby shop.Toy trains,model trains,planes,etc.  It's supposed to be fun. Yet, I've met hobbyists who seemed to be carrying a burden of drudgery and anger. I'm not talking about someone just having a bad day. Try to chat about the hobby with them...YIKES !!!

Concerning the original posters problem - I agree he did the right thing.He was informed that his suggestions were not wanted,so he said he was sorry for getting in on the conversation. But was being humiliated by the shop owner necessary ?  I don't think so . I wouldn't go back there,either. It reminds me of when I was a kid,there was a fun store in town.

They sold lots of toys,candy,models,etc.  In other words, a lot of stuff to attract kids. There was a middle-aged man who worked/owned the place.Talk about the Grouch King !    Fortunately for me, there was a kind,elderly lady who worked there also. It made up for his hostility.

Shop owners are only human, but they need to be courteous and diplomatic. (And remember customers are only human).

O.K., I'm stepping down from the podium ! NEXT !

[tstage]

Tom, you must be bored this morning. That is a NOVEL you wrote

I'm going back to the train room....wish me luck.

Frank,

At least it was short enough that you read it.  (You did, didn't you?)  I have Cliff notes, if you need 'em.

Tom 

[jsoderq]

Blue hills you make my point exactly. You assume (and we all know what that means) that you know why I no longer work in a hobby shop.  The fact of the matter is that I went to work for 2 of the largest US model manufacturers. As is often the case, model railroaders assume they "know it all" and the results speak for itself. 

[Driline]

Tom, you must be bored this morning. That is a NOVEL you wrote

I'm going back to the train room....wish me luck.

[tstage]

Since threads like this usually have plenty of life left in them for a number of pages, I'm going to chime in now with a completely different idea and take.  I'm almost positive that this suggestion will either be completely ignored or scoffed at.  Even so, I'm going to pose the idea anyhow.

We can all stand around and muse as to why this particular LHS owner might have chewed out Victor.  My suggestion would be to go back to that LHS and ask the owner directly, perhaps in the following manner:

---

Scenario 

[Prerequiste: Calm and pleasant demeanor.  Conversation preferably off to the side in private, away from other customers.]

Customer: "'Cuse me.  I was in here the other day while you were talking to another customer about something.  I added what I thought was a harmless and helpful suggestion to the conversation and, from my perspective, was royally chewed out for doing so.  Was I completely out of line?  Because I was quite surprised by the response that I received."

[Wait for the Owner to respond.]

Owner: [Listen intently to his response with the same calm and pleasant demeanor.]

Customer: [Wait until the Owner finishes what he is saying then respond calmy, taking into consideration what the Owner just told you.]

[Continue this exchange with the Owner until, from your perspective, your questions have been adequately answered.]

---

Victor, you are completely within your right not to go back to that particular LHS and give them your business.  I, myself, have stopped patronizing certain stores because of the continued threatment that I received from them.  (Usually it was because of the unprofessionalism and poor attitude of the hired help.)

However, I think it's also wise to confront someone in order to allow them to "rethink" what they may have done to you "in the heat of the moment".  If his attitude is unchanged then you've done what you can to understand the matter and should patronize other LHSes in your area instead.

I'm also sorta curious as to what the "other" customer (especially the one that the owner was talking to when this incident took place) or customers thought of this LHS owner's threatment of Victor.

Okay, you can now commence to hurling stones...

Tom

[DigitalGriffin]

Careful now...Brakie's listening 

Hey I said "Some", not "All!"  One of the great things about the hobby is the sharing of ideas. 

The older guys at my club can teach me a lot.  (Especially since some of them were around when steam was.)  So I consider them an invaluable source of information to learn from.  One of my fellow older members, named Wayne, is very patient with me even though I make some basic mistakes.

And I think Brakie is great!

[secondhandmodeler]

It was wrong of him to treat you that way.

It was also wrong of you to interject yourself in a conversation between that person and a customer.

You were wrong initially, and then he compounded the wrong by responding as he did.

Poo happens.

You've got to be kidding me? You think it was wrong for another customer to throw his 2 cents in to possibly help another even though he was conversing with the owner? What cold continent are you from?

As long as you're not trashing the original conversation I think its great that someone offered their advice. Here in the Midwest we call it "HOSPITALITY".

Jeff Foxworthy has a list of reason why you may be from Minnesota.  I think it applies to the Midwest in general.  " If you offer to help someone in a store, and you don't work there, you might be from Minnesota!"

LOL...close, IOWA.

Do you want to know why the Mississippi river flows south?

[Driline]

Let me guess, he was an older fellow?

If it was, you'll have to forgive them.  Sometimes older men get a lil "grumpy" (Hence the expression "Grumpy Old Men")  Not all mind you, but some.

At my club, the grumpy ones are the older ones.  I appreciate they share the hobby with me, but man, sometimes I want to duck and run for cover.

Even at like local hobby shop where I buy like $400 worth of stuff a month, there's an older fellow there that gives me a look everytime I come in that says, "What are you doing back?"  No "Hello", no nothing other than a look.

So don't take it personal.

Careful now...Brakie's listening 

[Driline]

It was wrong of him to treat you that way.

It was also wrong of you to interject yourself in a conversation between that person and a customer.

You were wrong initially, and then he compounded the wrong by responding as he did.

Poo happens.

You've got to be kidding me? You think it was wrong for another customer to throw his 2 cents in to possibly help another even though he was conversing with the owner? What cold continent are you from?

As long as you're not trashing the original conversation I think its great that someone offered their advice. Here in the Midwest we call it "HOSPITALITY".

Jeff Foxworthy has a list of reason why you may be from Minnesota.  I think it applies to the Midwest in general.  " If you offer to help someone in a store, and you don't work there, you might be from Minnesota!"

LOL...close, IOWA.

[secondhandmodeler]

It was wrong of him to treat you that way.

It was also wrong of you to interject yourself in a conversation between that person and a customer.

You were wrong initially, and then he compounded the wrong by responding as he did.

Poo happens.

You've got to be kidding me? You think it was wrong for another customer to throw his 2 cents in to possibly help another even though he was conversing with the owner? What cold continent are you from?

As long as you're not trashing the original conversation I think its great that someone offered their advice. Here in the Midwest we call it "HOSPITALITY".

Jeff Foxworthy has a list of reason why you may be from Minnesota.  I think it applies to the Midwest in general.  " If you offer to help someone in a store, and you don't work there, you might be from Minnesota!"

[secondhandmodeler]

Just remember, there are jerks everywhere.  Some of the jerks just happen to own, or work at a hobby shop.

 Why is that?  Guy who owns train store near me is about as nice as an agitated wolverine. Actually I find that one in ten model railroaders is nice the others should stay in their basements away from others.

It may be from watching their life's work get flushed by perceived, outside influences.  They may not realize that their attitude is a large factor as well.  A bad attitude only speeds up the dieing process.    As far as crabby modelers in general, I've never met one.  Then again, I've only met a few modelers in person.  One of them is the LHS owner.  He is one of the nicest people I've met.

[DigitalGriffin]

Let me guess, he was an older fellow?

If it was, you'll have to forgive them.  Sometimes older men get a lil "grumpy" (Hence the expression "Grumpy Old Men")  Not all mind you, but some.

At my club, the grumpy ones are the older ones.  I appreciate they share the hobby with me, but man, sometimes I want to duck and run for cover.

Even at like local hobby shop where I buy like $400 worth of stuff a month, there's an older fellow there that gives me a look everytime I come in that says, "What are you doing back?"  No "Hello", no nothing other than a look.

So don't take it personal.

[BlueHillsCPR]

Formerly a hobby shop manager, I will make a case for the other side. First, YOU were not the customer, so "the customer is always right" does not apply. Second, much as you may believe in your own expertise, you are not always right. This is a real problem with  some model railroaders who think they are experts in the hobby. Unless you know the shop owner well, it is never proper to stick your nose in his business. Unfortunately in model railroading, many think they must have the latest and greatest which is not always the case. Many times "butt-in customers" will extole the virtues of "x, y, or z" when such is not required for the actual customer. Upgrading a beginner to Red Caboose kits may well not be in the best interest of the customer. You might be surprised at how many times that actually happens. In fact, this seems to be a fatal flaw in model railroading, that so many are "experts". Remember, in any situation, "your mileage may vary".  Things do not always have to be "your way or the highway".

As for as " so and so does the trains" it is often the case that a certain employee has knowledge in a certain area, and rather than disseminate wrong information, it is better to leave  the opportunity to the person  with the proper knowledge. In fact many shop employees are put to work because they are quite knowledgeable in certain areas. You would not want to buy a new car from the janitor of a car dealership. As far as mentioning the car dealership, try sticking your nose in a transaction there and see how fast you are given the "bum's rush" or another salesman will  leap in to separate you from the real customer. In any business, it is never proper to butt in.

While I agree the situation seems harsh, think of the other side. Try butting in the preacher's sermon on Sunday, or giving advice to a doctor who is consulting with a patient.

It's not real hard to see why you say you were FORMERLY a Hobby Shop Manager.   There is no case for the other side!  The man was in his store with merchandise in his hands.  Since when is only the guy you are talking to at a precise moment in time a customer? 

[Driline]

It was wrong of him to treat you that way.

It was also wrong of you to interject yourself in a conversation between that person and a customer.

You were wrong initially, and then he compounded the wrong by responding as he did.

Poo happens.

You've got to be kidding me? You think it was wrong for another customer to throw his 2 cents in to possibly help another even though he was conversing with the owner? What cold continent are you from?

As long as you're not trashing the original conversation I think its great that someone offered their advice. Here in the Midwest we call it "HOSPITALITY".

[UNIONPACIFIC4018]

Just remember, there are jerks everywhere.  Some of the jerks just happen to own, or work at a hobby shop.

 Why is that?  Guy who owns train store near me is about as nice as an agitated wolverine. Actually I find that one in ten model railroaders is nice the others should stay in their basements away from others.

[secondhandmodeler]

I've had well intentioned customers of mine try to help in a sale.  Usually their comments are not an issue.  There were a few times where my existing customer tried to help, but it was actually hurting my sale.  I just listened, then continued with my approach.  I know they were trying to help, but the help was not needed.  That being said, I would never cut them off or dismiss them.  Unless you have a history of trying to 'help' this guy, I don't see any reason for him to yell at you.  Just remember, there are jerks everywhere.  Some of the jerks just happen to own, or work at a hobby shop.

[Midnight Railroader]

Im not defending the owner but speaking from experience, I had sales lost because of other customers who are not educated about a product or dont like a product pipe up and give their opinion to the customer.  What usually happens is that they come in at the tail end of the conversation and have not heard why this product will work best for the customer and the situation.

The thing is that I was NOT pushing any product or any "expertice". I was just going to suggest some past solutions I had seen published and some places like Carl Arednts Micro layout site so the other guy would have some ideas for planning a layout in the space he had. Nothing more than that. I even waited till there was a break in the conversation, but I hadnt even gotten the chance to finish my first sentance before the owner cut me off and stomped on my throat.

Thats why I left.

I think I'd have apologized and then said, "..but it's clear that you don't want my business here. I'll go elsewhere. And so will my friends." Then I'd have walked out.

[vsmith]

Im not defending the owner but speaking from experience, I had sales lost because of other customers who are not educated about a product or dont like a product pipe up and give their opinion to the customer.  What usually happens is that they come in at the tail end of the conversation and have not heard why this product will work best for the customer and the situation.

The thing is that I was NOT pushing any product or any "expertice". I was just going to suggest some past solutions I had seen published and some places like Carl Arednts Micro layout site so the other guy would have some ideas for planning a layout in the space he had. Nothing more than that. I even waited till there was a break in the conversation, but I hadnt even gotten the chance to finish my first sentance before the owner cut me off and stomped on my throat.

Thats why I left.

[vsmith]

Its interesting to hear how others would have reacted. Its also very interesting to hear about how others have very similar conversations in thier LHSs, that its even expected! I guess thats pretty rare here, unless your an established "good ol'boy".

Yeap, its very much easier to lose a customer than to win a loyal customer. As I said, I have no animosity to the store, I'm remarkably emotionally neutral about this.

For whatever reasons he might have had, I just have no interest in going back again, though I might send a letter, but given the positve experience others have had there, I will chalk my experience up to a bad day, but will stay away for good. I could have gotten all up in his face about the outburst, but honestly, my immediate reaction was to laugh internally and ask myself "why the hell am I even here?" The path of least destruction was to simply leave. It is Christmas and I didnt want to spoil my Christmas by getting into a verbal shouting match with the guy, so I'll forgive, but I wont forget.

 

[schom]

Im not defending the owner but speaking from experience, I had sales lost because of other customers who are not educated about a product or dont like a product pipe up and give their opinion to the customer.  What usually happens is that they come in at the tail end of the conversation and have not heard why this product will work best for the customer and the situation.

[JonathanS]

I entered a local hobby shop where I had frequently bought items (large and small) and picked up an item I wanted.  Then I started looking around to see if there was anything else that I might want.  The owner shouted at me that he did not want people coming in and looking around.  They were to just come in the door, go right to what they want. pick it up, pay for it and immediately leave.  I replaced the item I was going to buy and left not to return.  The shop closed within a year so apparently he started treating other customers the same way.

At another shop where I had previously shopped several times I was waiting at the cash register with a number of items I was wanting to purchase.  The clerk was on the phone with a customer so I waited.  Just before the clerk ended the phone call another customer entered and demanded the clerk's attention.  I stated that I had been waiting for a while and was ready to check out.  I was completely ignored by the clerk.  That customer was waited on and ended up purchasing nothing.  In the mean time another customer entered and again I was ignored, so I left my selections on the counter and left. I have not been back to that shop either.

Those incidents stand out because they are the exceptions.  My treatment at most shops has been excellent.

[Fergmiester]

Wow! That is truly unfortunate as my LHS's (plural) support that kind of interjection as it makes for great conversation and an exchange of ideas. If one has an open conversation in a "public" location then one can expect others to chime in, in an appropriate and respecrful manner, which I gather you did. I personally feel "this" individual was rude. What bothers me is when someone chimes in and you or your opinion is non existant. That's when I growl or just walk away and away for good!

Fergie 

[BRAKIE]

vsmith,That is one of the many problems face in todays hobby you are either a member of the "good old boy" club or your a outsider.Shoot not so long ago anybody could join in on a hobby shop discussion without being a member in the "Good Old Boys" club.

Can you imagine what a new modeler or a prospective modeler and I will add future customer would of thought?

I fully agree with your action..That was the best course to take.

[Phoebe Vet]

To quote a famous religious icon: "Let he who is without sin ..."

Have you ever had a really bad day at work and then overreacted to something your wife or kids did shortly after you arrived home?

Almost everyone has, on one occasion or another, Allowed the stress generated in one human transaction to color his reaction to the next.

It's Christmas. How about a little forgiveness.

The LHS that I patronize treats me with the greatest respect. I have even had them respond to my request for a quote on a special order say: "You can buy that on the web for less money than I have to pay my supplier, I would do that". That's why I buy all my day to day items there.