abraham lincoln's funeral car?

[Anonymous]

if i where to build the Abraham Lincoln funeral train.
that took him to his resting place.

how would i go about this?
i have the funeral car already.

now what other HO cars do i need to complet this historic train ride in the 1860's

i need directions to sites that can help me build this train set.
thanks

[Anonymous]

Try this: http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/news/train.htm
A simple search revealed it.

Looks like you'll need a colorful 4-4-0, a standard passenger set (MDC Roundhouse's 36' boxcar, 34' baggage, 34' coach, 34' observation, and 34' combine are what you need, but are in kits, you'll have to paint them to fit the funeral train's line. ). Since this was a special train, complete with lots of diginatries, you'd probably want 2 coaches. the special funeral car would be in the middle, so it was probably Boxcar-Baggage-combine-coach-Funeral-coach-observation.

If you look at this picture: http://www.picturehistory.com/find/p/8887/mcms.html you'll notive there was a boxcar as the first car of the train, not sure what it's purpose was.

Then there's this site that's selling a book explicitaly on it: http://www.goldenspike.us/index.html?target=p_215.html&lang=en-us



Hope that helps.
Jay

[AltonFan]

There are at least two books avalable on the Lincoln funeral train. Here is one: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0925436216/qid%3D1074883488/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/103-2310326-2116654

[MudHen_462]

I am sure that you mean from Washington to Illiois. I was watching the History Channel the other night, and discovered to my surprise that Lincoln's body was moved "13" times before it reached the "final" resting place. This should be an interesting bit of research, and car building.... good luck on your project.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IronGoat
discovered to my surprise that Lincoln's body was moved "13" times before it reached the "final" resting place.

And 29 different Locomotives pulled the train across that distance.

Jay

[Anonymous]

I am a brand new member. I am a senior citizen. I do not have a train. I am interested in beginning to start a train hobby. I am extremely interested in finding a complete Lincoln Funeral Train, HO GAUGE. Am I in need of a reality check? What are the chances of finding this train?
What is the best way to start looking for it?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by WARRANTIES

I am interested in beginning to start a train hobby. I am extremely interested in finding a complete Lincoln Funeral Train, HO GAUGE. Am I in need of a reality check? What are the chances of finding this train?
What is the best way to start looking for it?

First off, welcome to the best hobby in the world, that being said, let's look at your questions.

I know of no one making a set based on Lincoln's funeral train, as it's not a super popular item to be mass produced. usually Set's are not the best in quality anyways, so if you wanted a Lincoln Train, the best would be as i've stated above to build one yourself. I believe someone manufactured the Special 6 axle car Lincoln rode in, try Ebay to see if anyones selling it.

In reviewing other pictures of the Train, it contained a 4-4-0 (several different railroads on the east coast PPR would probably be the easiest to find), a 36' boxcar (presumably holding the Presidents personal goods from the Whitehouse), probably 2 baggage cars (there were more passenegers than a normal train, one could be a combine holding the guards), 2-4 coaches the special funeral car and the oberservation car on the end. The passenger cars can all be get from MDC in 34' or Concor's oldtime passenger cars will work as well. The box car would be a 36' oldtime, available from a few sources, including MDC and concor.

Jay

[dknelson]

AHM made the actual funeral car in HO -- it was a four truck car, so 8 not 6 axles. My recollection is that it did not run at all well.
Obviously the consist did not remain constant for the entire trip since it went over several different railroads. There are many photos of the train but you will see differences. The engines were draped in black crepe as were many of the cars.
Wayne Wesolowski, once of the best craftsman in the hobby, has built a funeral train in large scale and MR had an article and photos. I believe it is now in a museum unless it is still on tour.
For those with a taste for the macabre ... due to some flaw in the embalming, Lincoln's face began to turn black during the long long process of taking his body hom to Illinois. The morticians rectified the problem as best they could using white chalk. There is one and only one photo of him in his casket -- it was supposed to be destroyed by order of the government but someone hid it for years. The face looks oddly white.
What is little known is that his coffin was not actually buried at the memorial until around 1901, and for 35 years crowds of people were paying homage to an empty grave site while the actual tomb was planned and constructed. After an unsuccessful attempt to steal the body and hold it for ransom, for a while the coffin was actually hidden under a pile of rubble. When the tomb was finally ready there was a moment of panic -- what if the scheme to steal the body had actually been successful? So they called in a welder who cut a small opening in the metal coffin and Lincoln's body was viewed for the last time by a small crowd of people, including a small boy whose father brought him out of school for the event. The face was recognizable down to the mole on his face, but the white chalk gave it a bizarre appearance. They noted that Lincoln had been buried wearing gloves, which he hated to wear in life. And they noted that he had been buried with a small American flag in the casket against all flag rules of etiquette. The coffin was resealed and buried under tons of wet cement -- never to be disturbed again.
Sorry for the off topic info. One last Lincoln story, showing his humility and sense of humor. the night before he gave the Gettysburg Address, he was staying at a hotel and a crowd of people gathered under his balcony until he came out to say hello. Someone called for a speech. Lincoln declined saying "It is important that someone in my position not be heard to say something foolish." A heckler in the crowd yelled out "If he can help it." Lincoln laughed and said "And sometimes the only way I can help it is to say nothing at all" and withdrew back into his room.
Dave Nelson

[orsonroy]

Boy, there sure is a lot of partial information on this thread! I guess it's time for a Illinois citizen and American Civil War nut to chime in.

Looking at the photo of "the engine" and "boxcar", posted above, it's pretty obvious that the car behind the 4-4-0 is actually a BAGGAGE CAR. Boxcars don't have doors and windows.

I did a search on the US Library of Congress site, the Illinois Historical Society site, the Lincoln Association site, the Chicago Historical Society, and the Denver Public Library photo archive. As usual, the Chicago Historical Society had the best online photo of the Lincoln Funeral Train:

http://www.chicagohistory.org/AOTM/apr00/graphics/funtrain.jpg

As everyone can clearly see, the train is made up of one baggage car and several coaches. One period flyer I found on the LOC site indicated that the official train was to be made up of eight coaches for dignitaries and Lincoln's own car. This train WOULD HAVE been left together for the entire route from Washington to Chicago, at least (and possibly from Chicago to Springfield, but I've heard that the Alton assembled a new train for that leg of the trip). The engines would have been changed every 100 miles or so, or whenever the train entered another railroad's territory.

As for modeling the Funeral train, your best bet is to find the AHM Lincoln car, which pops up on Ebay once in awhile. The engine will have to be either a Rivarossi or Bachmann 4-4-0 that's been repainted (it will need a Russia Iron boiler, NOT a red or silver one!). The coaches and baggage car will have to be kitbashed out of Roundhouse (not MP or IHC) 50' old time Pullman cars (the ones with the "duck bill" roofs, not the 50' Overlands with the normal celestory roofs). Remember, 1965 was the days before railroad diners, sleepers, lounges and Pullmans, so ONLY get coach bodies! Some one will have to dig through one of the Lincoln Funeral Train books to see what railroad the cars actually came from (definitely NOT the B&O, which was 5' gauge then), to see what colors they'd be (possibly yellow, from the looks of the photo).

If you have the means, I'd strongly suggest going to the Illinois Stste Historical Society in Springfield. You literally trip over Lincoln experts, and they'll be able to lead you in the right direction for research data and photos.

[Anonymous]

Ray hate to counterdict you, but 50' passenger cars were not around in 1865, 34' would have been the closest available, 50' cars didn't appear for another 6-10 years.

Jay

[orsonroy]

Then why was Lincoln's car 64 feet long, and why does the B&O museum have two 50 footers in their collection that date from the 1850s? The cars that accompanied the General on tour in the 1960s, both original 1860s cars, were in the 50' range. The 34' cars sold by Roundhouse are ONLY correct for two cars for the Sierra RR, and they're pretty goofy looking. And take a look at the photo link I provided. The cars are longer than the 4-4-0, which is at least 40 feet long. Pullman's first diners and sleepers were in the 60' range, and they were the cars that came out 6-10 years after the war. Yes, the Roundhouse cars are actually of 1870s prototypes, but they're the best models available (especially considering the roof profile).

[Anonymous]

Man, am I empressed with these responces. I am the originator of the questions and cannot believe how everyone has go generously responded. I certainly have a lot to learn and again, thanks to you all. To tell you the truth, I'm a tad bit overwhelmed by it all. Don't know the first thing about all this....maybe I'll stick to raising Newfoundland dogs. Thanks again

Gary Biehl

[MudHen_462]

About two months ago, the History Channel had a special on the funeral, and the
video was offered for sale ($19.95). There was a wealth of information, and file
photos incorporated in the film. It might be worth checking out. I hope this helps...

Iron Goat

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

Then why was Lincoln's car 64 feet long

As stated it was a special car built for the president before he was killed, it was 6 axled and rumored to be armored as well. it was touted as to be the Airforce One of it's time. the AHM model is not prototypical in appearnace as it only has 4 axles.

QUOTE: why does the B&O museum have two 50 footers in their collection that date from the 1850s?"

Not sure of this, but very doubtful, there were a handful (less than 10) 50'er's pre 1870, that were in various feasibilty testings. it's highly unlikely that they'd have been pulled from all over the country for the presidents train.

QUOTE: The 34' cars sold by Roundhouse are ONLY correct for two cars for the Sierra RR, and they're pretty goofy looking.

Yes goofy looking but semi-accurate of the time.

QUOTE: And take a look at the photo link I provided. The cars are longer than the 4-4-0, which is at least 40 feet long.

Photo can be decieving as it's taken on an angle and from a distance, with the engine in front, thus making the engine look shorter. I'm betting the cars are more likey the 40' cars (thus i recommended the 34' cars as they're closer than 50') more typical to the era in question.

QUOTE: Pullman's first diners and sleepers were in the 60' range, and they were the cars that came out 6-10 years after the war.

Pullman was a visionary, he thought big and built big. but he didn't become a true powerhouse till the mid 1870's.

QUOTE:
Yes, the Roundhouse cars are actually of 1870s prototypes, but they're the best models available (especially considering the roof profile).

I have the MDC 50's and placing them next to my 4-4-0 definatly puts them out of proportion to your picture, as stated above a 40' would probably be better, but since there isn't any on the market, the 34' is the closest thing. You could always kitbash a few 34'er's to 40', it'd take some work, but it's doable.

I have to conceed you were right about the combine car or bagage car on the front of the picture i posted. I glanced at it and mistook the windows as part of the adornments.

jay

[Anonymous]

Ok Gents, it's the novice again. What is the difference between these Brass Engines and all the different makes of engines. I've been looking at an IHC engine on Ebay for $54.00, a 4.4.0 with all sorts of brass stuff on it. Is this a good engine. They say it picks up electric from both tracks thru wheels of tender and engine. Don't they all do that? They say it is smoother at low speed. It's not about money here...I just want to not be so stupid. By the way, can't find a Lincoln Funeral Car anywhere. Called 16 Hobby shops all over Ohio...no luck. Gonna build it one way or another.
Thanks for all your help
gary

[Anonymous]

The IHC 4-4-0 is a very good entry level Locomotive.

Not all pick up from both tender and Loco, some will only have 1 set of drivers pick up left and the other pick up right, some use the leading pilot wheels to pick up left and the drivers to pick up left. having both loco and tender pick up is optimal.

Jay

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the advice Jay. How difficult is it going to be for me to find same era cars for this engine? Or should I buy a complete boxed train set? I see old timers on Ebay but don't know about quality. Prices for these sets are cheaper than the price on the engine I am looking at.
Thanks
gary

[Anonymous]

Gary,
try ConCor's (not the best looking but passable) http://www.all-railroads.com/instock/hootpass.htm (4 cars at $ 42.88) or MDC' has 2 different Types, the 34' Overton Old Time Passenger car or the 50' Overland Cars with Clerestory Roof car, in individual cars. http://www.mdcroundhouse.com/

If you want frieght cars, MDC has the widest selection of ones available for you (36' boxcars, old time tank cars) there are others IHC has some Oldtime MOW and frieght cars (http://www.ihc-hobby.com/) available, Concor has a few old time freight cars as well.

best bet is to talk to your Local hobby shop and see what they can get you, it's usually cheaper than ordering it online. although that''s not always the case on some items.

Jay

[M636C]

Gary,

There is a huge book on passenger cars "The Amercian Railroad Passenger Car" by John H White, I think it was published about 1980 by the Smithsonian. I'm sure it gives some useful data on the cars in the train. It is likely to be in a library somewhere that you can find.

The funeral car did have eight axles, as shown correctly in the model. I beleive that Pullman's first new car, "Pioneer" was also on the train for accommodation. At the time, it was also fitted with eight axles and looked a lot like the funeral car. Pioneer was later modified to look like later cars, and most photos show it with four axles and a "duck -billed" roof, like the Roundhouse kits.

But I think he two big cars visible in the bridge photo are the funeral car and Pioneer, and they were both about 50 feet long.

But keep checking books and photos - there are better shots than listed here around somewhere.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Jay and Peter,
Man am I glad I joined up here. You guys are great. Thanks a lot. Jay those sites you sent me save me a whole lot of time wandering around lost. Again, thanks.
Gary

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C
[brThere is a huge book on passenger cars "The Amercian Railroad Passenger Car" by John H White,

Yes that is an invaulabale reference book, it's in 2 volumes, and covers everything you could ever think of about passenger cars. His book on frieght cars is also highly recommended.

Mr. White worked for many years doing research on Railroads for the Smithsonian, digging into long lost materials and patents to find everything about Older railroad Rolling stock. if there's ever anyone that would eb considered a Guru in Rolling stock, it's Mr. white.

His books are well worth the cost.

Jay

[M636C]

Gary,

I've pulled out my copy of White's book. Mine is an early hard cover version, in one volume, 700 big pages. On page 368 are two good photos of the funeral car itself. White says the body was 42 feet long (which would not normally include the platforms). So if we add say three feet for each platform, and maybe one foot for each coupler (it would have had link and pin couplers, shorter than present day knuckle type couplers).

Anyway, that's me rationalising White's figure into mine! The body iself looks very much like the somewhat later cars available in HO (or N), even the inexpensive Bachmann cars. It would be neccessary to build a new flatter roof with the distictive raised "lantern" or "Clerestory". It might be possible to use two relatively short trucks from these early cars with a beam linking them to a single pivot each end on the car (this would be closer the centre than the normal pivot). The second photo in White, and the photo of the truck model in the link above might help.

There are many photos of the train, which might help you make up the rest of the train. One of the standard 4-4-0s could be used as the locomotive, with decoration based on the photographs.

Apparently, the car was sold to Union Pacific (who else!)

All the best,

Peter

[dknelson]

Don;t forget the Mantua "General" as possible power for the train.
By the way as to the posting that there were no sleeping cars in 1865 -- I have an old pass for "sleeping cars" on the Chicago and Galena Union, dated 1856. They were not Pullmans of course - probably crude benches -- but such cars did exist
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson
By the way as to the posting that there were no sleeping cars in 1865 -- I have an old pass for "sleeping cars" on the Chicago and Galena Union, dated 1856.

Dave, never said there were no sleepers in the 1850's, there were sleepers, but most were no longer than 40-42' in length. it was rare to see a 50' car in the 1850's as the underframe trusses were made of wood, it wasn't until the late 1860's that steel started to become the standard for the underframe trusses and thus longer cars.

Jay

[Anonymous]

Another question from the novice. If I start buying cars from various sources, like Ebay, flea markets, yard sales, what do I do about different couplings they all might have? Is there a standard type I can replace them all with, including the engine? Still haven't found that Lincoln Funeral Car.
Thanks again
gary

[Anonymous]

Gary go to www.kadee.com to see if they have a conversion for that type car. the recommended standard is their #5 or #58, both are interchangeable. Kadee recommends some of their other coouplers for specific applications (IE the cow catcher on a steamer needs a longer shank).

Jay

[Jetrock]

Of course, Kadee couplers would not be accurate for the prototype (in the 1860's, link-and-pin couplers were still pretty much universal) but Kadees are the way to go--they are the standard by which other couplers are measured, and if you're going to have one anachronism in this train, let Kadee couplers be it. Besides, it's pretty much impossible to do link-and-pin coupling in HO scale!!

[dknelson]

Someone .. maybe Model Engineering Works, maybe Kemtron -- used to make a link and pin coupler in HO. How well it worked I have no idea.
One thought would be to use N scale knuckle couplers to keep them inconspicuous.

I remember reading that when the Civil War engine The General was readied for excursion service during the Civil War Centennial they needed to find a knuckle coupler that would fit -- it had to be small. They ended up taking one from a Burro crane car.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Novice here. Can you believe I found a Lincoln Funeral Car on Ebay and am shocked. The bid is up to $102.00 and the reserve has not been met yet. It is a Pocher product, is this some kind of highly collectable manufacturer or is this a rip?

Thanks
Gary

[Jetrock]

Pocher's a fairly obscure brand name...not really highly collectable so much as just rare because it's kind of an oddball thing.

Whether or not you bid on that depends on whether it's worth it to you to spend over $100 on a Lincoln funeral car.

I can't really tell if the car is brass or not--$100 for a brass passenger car isn't out of line.