Is this hobby becoming too expensive?

[R. T. POTEET]

There is, to be sure, an observable increase in prices - I finally had to pay over three bucks a gallon for gasoline the other day and it is doomed to go higher. I filled one tank this last summer at $2.379 which surprised me because I had predicted a year ago that I would never see $2.50 a gallon gasoline again - I will make that same prediction now - I will never see $2.50 a gallon gasoline again.

The increase in petroleum prices will automatically generate an increase in the price of plastic; as I understand it after cracking only 13% of a barrel of oil is available for products other than fuels. There is also the supply and demand factor at work and an increase in the demand for plastic is going to further increase the price of that plastic which becomes available from the producer. I will prognosticate that that $20.00 boxcar from whomever now is going to be more than $25.00 in the not too distant future

There was a feature on the evening news last night about theft of copper which has increased in price 900% in the last two years. There is automatically going to be an increase in the price of brass so if you have been considering that $1000.00 locomotive better get it now cause its price is very likely to climb out of the reach of joesixpack. This is a mixed blessing; living in one of the largest copper producing states in the country it is nice to see mines reopening and out-of-work miners going back to work; as one whose entrepreneurial juices have been flowing in the direction of a line of brass N Scale passenger cars this makes me just a little depressed and I think you can understand why!

The increase in fuel prices is going to innaugurate an increase in the price of just about everything because just about everything has to be transported; if one hasn't noticed it already I have observed that my food bill has gone up. The farmer in the big valley of California sees an increase in his fuel bill and raises the price of his lettuce to compensate; that lettuce has to be packed and shipped in cardboard boxes which has gone up because the wood from which it is made has had to be transported by train which uses petroleum fuel and ........................ This is referred to as a treadmill to oblivion.

Employees put pressure on employers for increased wages to compensate for increased costs and this becomes a part of this neverending cycle. Is the cost of the hobby getting out of reach?; my continued participation will probably come at the expense of having to do with less. The increased cost of labor in Japan in the 1960's more than doubled the price of brass imports in the ten years between 1962 and 1972 and forever drove it out of the budget of this joesixpack.

I have a worry which has only been skirted here on this topic. In this day of scanning UPC bars it is rare to find price tags stuck on items but if, twenty years ago,  you encountered in your local supermarket a stocker going through the shelves and repricing merchandise he was doing that because the chain had been notified of an increase in the price of that item. A merchant must, of necessity, insure that the price he charges for an item is going to be high enough to pay for what his reordering is going to cost; if, for example, he has been charging $1.00 for an item and finds that his next order for that item will cost him $1.25 then he will immediately raise the price of his existing stock to reflect that new price. Some merchants have the depth to absorb an increase with only a minimum of heartburn; more than one merchant has found that he gets innundated with increased costs and becomes forced to fold his business simply because he lacks that depth to absorb those costs; this is one of the reasons why I continue to do business with my local - I want him to stay in business. There have been a number of topics here on the forum of late lamenting the closing of a favorite hobby shop; unfortunately I see spiraling inflation forcing more and more hobby shops to close their doors accompanied with much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth!

These are just a couple of my-two-cents-worth observations on what I perceive as a future problem for the hobby.

[BRAKIE]

Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.

I believe that was AHC - America's Hobby Center. 

 

Ah yes! AHC..LOL! I hate senior moments.

Thanks for the correction..

[CNJ831]

But, here goes anyway: my first brass was a PFM Nickel Plate Berk purchased in 1968 for $64.95 (which was list at the time).  My inflation calculator says that works out to $378.89 today.  Now, I searched through a few brass dealers and found the same engine for sale for between $225 and $449.  Problem is, being a 40 year old model, the comparison is largely meaningless --- what I should quote is what dealers are getting for an identical or similar NEW brass steam loco today.  There aren't any new NKP Berks around, so I can't do that close a comparison.

Well, when you do find a currently in production one, or something reasonably comparable, you'll also find out that today it costs 3x to 4x your adjusted-for-inflation figure.  

CNJ831 

[Tom Curtin]

Yes I remember America's Hobby Center well . . . a crowded 2nd floor walkup somewhere down around the "garment district" of Manhattan.  I often shopped there both by mail and in person.  I have to say I do not remember them being a discounter, not in the mid 60s anyway.  However, they may have begun discounting later.  I think they still exist in the New York area somewhere.  The other thing I remember ( for some reason) was that the owner's name was Bernie, and he was --- well, kind of "Gruff," although in an endearing sort of way.

Now ---- since I'm on an inflation calculator roll, let me use an example of a brass import.  The standard inflation calculation might fall apart with brass because there is such a complex combination of factors influencing the prices.  But, here goes anyway: my first brass was a PFM Nickel Plate Berk purchased in 1968 for $64.95 (which was list at the time).  My inflation calculator says that works out to $378.89 today.  Now, I searched through a few brass dealers and found the same engine for sale for between $225 and $449.  Problem is, being a 40 year old model, the comparison is largely meaningless --- what I should quote is what dealers are getting for an identical or similar NEW brass steam loco today.  There aren't any new NKP Berks around, so I can't do that close a comparison.

 

[Anonymous]

Riiight! Now I remember.

[on30francisco]

Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.

I believe that was AHC - America's Hobby Center. 

Wasnt it American Hobby Manufacters? AHM?

Although AHM also had large ads in Model Railroader, AHC was always on the second or third page of every issue of MR and had two page ads. As online ordering became more popular, their ads shrunk to one page and eventually went the way of the 8 track. AHC was a discount hobby shop in New York that sold items from Atlas, Life Like,Tyco, MDC, etc by mail at a discount. Remember their own brand of turnouts called "Amtron" for $1.25? 

[Anonymous]

Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.

I believe that was AHC - America's Hobby Center. 

Wasnt it American Hobby Manufacters? AHM?

[on30francisco]

Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.

I believe that was AHC - America's Hobby Center. 

[BRAKIE]

Check out these prices.

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/category_s/477.htm

 

[andrechapelon]

Since I will hit my 50th anniversary in Model Railroading in a few weeks, this is a good time to cite the example of my first engine.  It was an Athearn "Blue box" F7, powered A/Dummy B pair, which retailed in Dec. 1957 at 6.95 for the A and 3.00 for the B --- $9.95 total.  Looking that figure up in a consumer price index table gives a figure of $71.29 today.

The Athearn catalog offers the F7 pwered A & dummy B (together) today for $69.98.  you can probably find it discounted (1957 was before the days of discounting).

Admittedly this is only one example but it's amazing how close that is to the CPI.

BTW, that 1957 Athearn was rubber band "HiF" drive, painted in PRR passenger tuscan red, which I learned years later was not prototypically correct for an F-7.  You had to keep a supply of replacement rubber bands on hand at all times.  I'm sure today's engine is a much better product.

Yup. Sounds about right. Interestingly enough, you can get an A/B set of Athearn BB F-7's with both units powered (geared with flywheel) for an inflation adjusted price lower (and with much better truck detail) than the Hi-F power/dummy combo you got 50 years ago.  Paint jobs are better, too. http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=F7+A%2fB+RTR&CatID=THLD

Naturally, that's MSRP. You can get them for less than that.

Andre

[BRAKIE]

Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.

[Tom Curtin]

Since I will hit my 50th anniversary in Model Railroading in a few weeks, this is a good time to cite the example of my first engine.  It was an Athearn "Blue box" F7, powered A/Dummy B pair, which retailed in Dec. 1957 at 6.95 for the A and 3.00 for the B --- $9.95 total.  Looking that figure up in a consumer price index table gives a figure of $71.29 today.

The Athearn catalog offers the F7 pwered A & dummy B (together) today for $69.98.  you can probably find it discounted (1957 was before the days of discounting).

Admittedly this is only one example but it's amazing how close that is to the CPI.

BTW, that 1957 Athearn was rubber band "HiF" drive, painted in PRR passenger tuscan red, which I learned years later was not prototypically correct for an F-7.  You had to keep a supply of replacement rubber bands on hand at all times.  I'm sure today's engine is a much better product.

 

 

[SilverSpike]

That's cool That's cool!! And as you pointed it will work as this young lad proves..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3DugcOQYL4&feature=related

Yep, and where there's a will there's a way! That video reminds me of when I was a kid and playing with trains with my dad in the 1970's.

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Let's look at it another way..One can enjoy model railroading with say 2 locomotives,a hand full of cars and then join a local club.By buying at discount I would say less then $600.00 will put you in the hobby..No club? Then another $1200.00 should cover a Industrial Switching Layout or  4x8 footer.So,by going with "less is better" you need not spend a small fortune.

Of course and speaking from my own experience we all tend to buy far more then we will ever need or can use.

B:

Goodness, you don't even have to spend nearly that much.  Let's see...

Table, built from 1/2" CDX plywood, 2 x 3 legs, 1 x 3s salvaged from removed tile ceiling, deck screws, glue, drywall screws, carriage bolts - about $40 overall, perhaps $60 if I had to buy the 1 x 3s.

New track - Total $25

2 packs new Atlas 22"R, 1 pack 9" straights, 2 packs joiners

Used track - Total $7:

1 Box o' fun from train show, $5, including 4 brass remote snap-switches and much snap-track
1 box o' fun from last year's show, $2, full of Tru-Scale switches I haven't used yet, and one Atlas brass wye which I have used.

Reused track - Total about $30
Three NS #4 Custom-Line switches, which I did buy new. However, I bought them three layouts ago, so I've been spending this same $30 bill since then...if I was just starting, of course, I'd have to count this.

Powerpack - Total $15:

1 MRC Ampack from train show, $5
Rat Shack parts to upgrade Ampack to transistor throttle, under $10

Equipment - Total about $43 :

(N.B. I know it's hard to believe, but I actually have /a little more/ than I can use, so I'm just including what I am using in my daily operations)

Life-Like 0-4-0T Teakettle - $29 new, 6 years ago.  Remotored with salvaged tape player motor.
(While the remotor job was easy, it involved a certain element of luck, and I don't
remember what kind of tape player the motor came from.  I tend to compulsively scrap
every failed electronic device and toss its usable parts in a box for later. There are
other ways to get cheap, good-running steam.  You can get great deals at train shows
if you look and take care to test and check for wear before buying.)

Steel boxcars - 2 Life-Like 40', 1 Model Power 40', from train shows, about $2 ea.

OB wooden boxcars - 2 Life-Like, $2 each from train shows.

50' flat - Tyco, $2 at train show

40' combine - Tyco, $3 at train show

(Yes, these do still have plastic wheels and horn-hooks.  I'm uncoupling with a 16d nail.
Eventually some or all will be upgraded, but I wanted to experiment.)

Track cleaning slider-car made from eminently suitable Life-Like 40' box - free, homebuilt from car in box o' fun #1 and scrap materials.

Obnoxiously unkillable Life-Like sidewinder F to pull track cleaner - free, was included in box o' fun #1. Also works obnoxiously well on modified Ampack after so much 150mph running.

So, as you can see, I am now happily operating my Plywood Pacific, and the total cost was well under $200, including $60 spent on material reused from previous layouts, and $20 in lumber that was salvaged and actually cost me nothing. Much of what I did spend was spread out over the several months it took me, working in little bits at a time, to construct the table and rebuild the Ampack. Some of that was a little tedious, but now I'm having a great time.

 

That's cool That's cool!! And as you pointed it will work as this young lad proves..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3DugcOQYL4&feature=related

 

 

 

[Autobus Prime]

Guys,Let's look at it another way..One can enjoy model railroading with say 2 locomotives,a hand full of cars and then join a local club.By buying at discount I would say less then $600.00 will put you in the hobby..No club? Then another $1200.00 should cover a Industrial Switching Layout or  4x8 footer.So,by going with "less is better" you need not spend a small fortune.

Of course and speaking from my own experience we all tend to buy far more then we will ever need or can use.

B:

Goodness, you don't even have to spend nearly that much.  Let's see...

Table, built from 1/2" CDX plywood, 2 x 3 legs, 1 x 3s salvaged from removed tile ceiling, deck screws, glue, drywall screws, carriage bolts - about $40 overall, perhaps $60 if I had to buy the 1 x 3s.

New track - Total $25

2 packs new Atlas 22"R, 1 pack 9" straights, 2 packs joiners

Used track - Total $7:

1 Box o' fun from train show, $5, including 4 brass remote snap-switches and much snap-track
1 box o' fun from last year's show, $2, full of Tru-Scale switches I haven't used yet, and one Atlas brass wye which I have used.

Reused track - Total about $30
Three NS #4 Custom-Line switches, which I did buy new. However, I bought them three layouts ago, so I've been spending this same $30 bill since then...if I was just starting, of course, I'd have to count this.

Powerpack - Total $15:

1 MRC Ampack from train show, $5
Rat Shack parts to upgrade Ampack to transistor throttle, under $10

Equipment - Total about $43 :

(N.B. I know it's hard to believe, but I actually have /a little more/ than I can use, so I'm just including what I am using in my daily operations)

Life-Like 0-4-0T Teakettle - $29 new, 6 years ago.  Remotored with salvaged tape player motor.
(While the remotor job was easy, it involved a certain element of luck, and I don't
remember what kind of tape player the motor came from.  I tend to compulsively scrap
every failed electronic device and toss its usable parts in a box for later. There are
other ways to get cheap, good-running steam.  You can get great deals at train shows
if you look and take care to test and check for wear before buying.)

Steel boxcars - 2 Life-Like 40', 1 Model Power 40', from train shows, about $2 ea.

OB wooden boxcars - 2 Life-Like, $2 each from train shows.

50' flat - Tyco, $2 at train show

40' combine - Tyco, $3 at train show

(Yes, these do still have plastic wheels and horn-hooks.  I'm uncoupling with a 16d nail.
Eventually some or all will be upgraded, but I wanted to experiment.)

Track cleaning slider-car made from eminently suitable Life-Like 40' box - free, homebuilt from car in box o' fun #1 and scrap materials.

Obnoxiously unkillable Life-Like sidewinder F to pull track cleaner - free, was included in box o' fun #1. Also works obnoxiously well on modified Ampack after so much 150mph running.

So, as you can see, I am now happily operating my Plywood Pacific, and the total cost was well under $200, including $60 spent on material reused from previous layouts, and $20 in lumber that was salvaged and actually cost me nothing. Much of what I did spend was spread out over the several months it took me, working in little bits at a time, to construct the table and rebuild the Ampack. Some of that was a little tedious, but now I'm having a great time.

 

 

[IRONROOSTER]

...

Of course and speaking from my own experience we all tend to buy far more then we will ever need or can use.

I think I'll need an airplane hangar layout to use it all.

Enjoy

Paul 

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Let's look at it another way..One can enjoy model railroading with say 2 locomotives,a hand full of cars and then join a local club.By buying at discount I would say less then $600.00 will put you in the hobby..No club? Then another $1200.00 should cover a Industrial Switching Layout or  4x8 footer.So,by going with "less is better" you need not spend a small fortune.

Of course and speaking from my own experience we all tend to buy far more then we will ever need or can use.

[AltoonaRailroader]

Although Walthers does sell items at sale and MSRP prices direct to the consumer, since Walthers is also a supplier to almost every train shop in the US, they are aware that they can't really sell at "street" prices because then they would be competing against their own customers... the train shops who use Walthers as a distributor. So they generally sell at MSRP. Largeness doesn't really have anything to do with volume and pricing in this case.

Ahhhh, that does make sense. I used to deal with a computer parts distributor and they wouldn't sell you direct just because they'd be competing with their own customers. Thanks for explaining that.

[andrechapelon]

This will be my one and only post to this thread.  The price of a subscription to MR is quite high compared to other magazines.  I couldn't believe the price for a years subscription.  It is two to three times higher than other magazines I subscribe to.

If you think that MR is expensive, try subscribing to an overseas model magazine.  My subscription to Tetsudo Mokei Shumi costs me +- $200/year - more than some other people spend on the entire hobby!

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

Doesn't that just make you wish for the Good Old Days when the Yen was about 633 to the dollar and you could buy a brand new Datsun 510 for just a shade over $2000 out the door?

Remember the Honda 50, that "groovy little motor bike"? The one that sold for about $220 or so in the mid 60's?

Andre - waxing nostalgic and getting off-topic

[Autobus Prime]

I would really like a EL SDP45 or 2. But with the price of even plastic models today I am horribly afriad to trust my dubious kitbashing skills.

td:

Well, get them un-dubious with some practice.  Find something you can kitbash from old swap-meet stuff.  It's cheap, and if it goes sour you at least get experience for the next one.  You can't let fear hold you back.  There's always going to be stuff nobody is making, or that nobody can get because it is some preorder-only hyper-limited awesome exclusive thing...

You could...

...make an old Lifelike F40PH into a "cabbage".

...cut down an AHM SD40 into a slug unit.

...convert a B-unit F into a heater car

...make some Geep B-units,

etc. All of these would be easy, cheap, and possibly usable items that would help you become a skilled kitbasher, and bring that SD45 project within reach.

 

[on30francisco]

I get my PC Gamer Magazine for $19.95 a year, but that is also the teaser price. Cover price on the things are $8.95 ea. And you can find subscriptions to MR and things cheaper if you browse the net. MR's website subscription is $42, but I found a clearing house selling the subscription for $24. I can easily stomach that.

I have used some of those clearing houses to subscribe to magazines and have never had any problems with missing issues or anything else.

[Anonymous]

MR is higher than magazines in other fields.  Many of these want high circulation for higher advertsing rates so they keep their subscription rates low.  There's a lot more folks playing computer games than building model railroads so that works for PCGamer and others.  Personally, I enjoy MR and get more out of it than I do PCGamer.

S Gaugian is $36 a year for 6 issues each a lot smaller than MR.  It also has a much smaller circulation than MR.  But it's all S so it's worth it to me. 

Enjoy

Paul 

 

This is the point I was making when I complained last week about the high cost of model railroading.  I think its expensive, and I don't like that.  HOWEVER, I completely understand why it is expensive.  It really is not that popular a hobby.  In order for companies to make a profit they need to charge more $$$$.  And I'm not comparing the hobby now to any other time in history.  I am not speaking of the cost relative to 20 years ago, 30 years ago, or whatever.  I am only 28 years old.  When I say I think it is expensive, I mean I feel that some, repeat SOME, of the items (like turnouts) cost way more than what it actually takes to make them.  I understand that there are research and development costs.  I work in the Pharma industry and believe me I know how much is spent on R & D.  But, I really don't think there has been any revolutionary new concepts applied to turnouts.  I could be wrong, and I'm sure someone will call me on it.

Just my opinion,

Smitty

[DavidH]

Bob, I do note that Popular Photography has a circulation of >400,000 per month, and, as you say, they are mostly ads.  Also, their ads are coming from some big dollar broad consumer market companies, so their cost recovery from sales compared to the advertising dollars is probably a lot less important.  Thsy need high circulation to keep their advertising revenue up.  I don't think the MR market is quite so dynamic.

David

[GAPPLEG]

I usually don't dive into these opinion type threads, but for my two cents. I just make do with what I got. If I can't afford it , I don't get it. Hobbies are nice but they are just that. I certainly don't try to keep up with the Jones's. I have disposable income that some would say is large , but I'm not going to spend it all on a hobby.

Yes some parts of the hobby are expensive , DCC is one, for my part. I could go out today and buy a great system, but I choose not too. I'd rather use that money for other things hobby related and non-hobby related. maybe someday I'll get the bug to buy that DCC system , I even dropped one of the RR mags , I felt two was a waste. I kept MR so you can guess the one I dropped.

[secondhandmodeler]

I take the one and only post comment back.  Most magazines, whether specialized or not, run between $12 and $20.  I almost fell over when I saw $43 for twelve magazines.  You can't tell me that doesn't sound a little high.

 

Uhm.  By those figures, it works out to $3.58 a month.  The cover price for MR (I have the current issue sitting in front of me) is $5.95.  I don't consider that to be high for a specialty magazine. 

No, it's not that bad of a price.  I was surprised, compared to other magazines though.  They usually work out to about a dollar per issue. 

[Arjay1969]

I take the one and only post comment back.  Most magazines, whether specialized or not, run between $12 and $20.  I almost fell over when I saw $43 for twelve magazines.  You can't tell me that doesn't sound a little high.

 

Uhm.  By those figures, it works out to $3.58 a month.  The cover price for MR (I have the current issue sitting in front of me) is $5.95.  I don't consider that to be high for a specialty magazine. 

[One Track Mind]

Just this morning I was doing some internet shopping for the following products. I'm not sure where all these places are, some are in California and on in Wyoming, but most of the shipping charges was about $7-9 give or take. Here's what I was looking for and who had what prices. Please add more if you know some place for less.

Items:  All Nickel Silver except the roadbed of course.

3   Atlas #6 Left  Code 100

1   Atlas #6 Right Code 100

1   Atlas #4 Left   Code 100

25pc Midwest Cork Roadbed

5   3' Altas Superflex flex track

 

NHS hobbies had the best price over all:   $76.26  Some items on sale

Atlas.com was second with:                   $82.45   But would not calculate shipping until order was placed. 

Local LHS Gene's Trains:                        $86.04   This of course has no shipping because it's local.

Cherry Creek Hobbies:                            $103.00  This had the highest shipping at $9.75

And last was Go Hobbies. Inc.                  $108.34  Just a little too pricy.

 

I know there's probably a dozen other places that I missed or just did not list. One thing I will say though is that it seemed that for as big as Wathers is they were the most expensive. I would think that the bigger or more popular companies would be able to sell at better prices just do to shear product movement.

 

Just my

That was wierd, just as I finished this post I experience Da-Ja-Vue.

 

Although Walthers does sell items at sale and MSRP prices direct to the consumer, since Walthers is also a supplier to almost every train shop in the US, they are aware that they can't really sell at "street" prices because then they would be competing against their own customers... the train shops who use Walthers as a distributor. So they generally sell at MSRP. Largeness doesn't really have anything to do with volume and pricing in this case.

[jfugate]

In all fairness, I should probably take the circulation numbers of magazines into consideration.  A few of the magazines I cited have a circulation of a half million to a million and a half.  Does anyone know the circulation numbers for Model Railroader?

I'm not sure but 300K seems to stick in my mind as the approximate number of subscribers.

MR has about 150,000 circulation per issue. 

 

[whitman500]

In all fairness, I should probably take the circulation numbers of magazines into consideration.  A few of the magazines I cited have a circulation of a half million to a million and a half.  Does anyone know the circulation numbers for Model Railroader?

I'm not sure but 300K seems to stick in my mind as the approximate number of subscribers.

[secondhandmodeler]

In all fairness, I should probably take the circulation numbers of magazines into consideration.  A few of the magazines I cited have a circulation of a half million to a million and a half.  Does anyone know the circulation numbers for Model Railroader?