Computers in the world has only speeded up the pace of life.
I remember when the first onboard computers came into the Desiel engines on the 18 wheeler. Too fancy! was the cry; it has to be air breathing or not at all back then.
Wel I suppose we still settle for 6 miles to the gallon with all the fancy doo-dads that serve the company and customers more than the driver these days.
Im liking my DCC and set to get even deeper into it as the years go by.
Now, as I write this I am asking myself --- and perhaps others reading it are too --- "Gee, with the growing electronic invasion into madel railroading (DCC, signalling systems, etc.), with this cost curve start to apply in our hobby?" I think about this and I kind of doubt it, simply because model railroad electronics are for a relatively small niche market segment. There won't be phase of large scale production and widespread adoption.
We're already benefiting from the computer/electronics revolution. The components that go into those systems are essentially off-the-shelf components that benefit from the price drop (not to mention diminishing size) being realized in the electronics/computer industry. Where we won't benefit is in economies of scale in the manufacture of decoders because the market for those decoders is miniscule compared to the market for computers, DVD players, IPod/IPhones, etc. My wife and I were in WallyWorld yesterday where they had a number of Magnavox combination VCR/DVD players for sale for $60 (under $8 in 1954 dollars).
The biggest benefit we've received is one that most people don't think about and that is the reduction in the cost of design and tooling brought about by computers. Without that, there would be no mass (relatively speaking) produced locomotives/cars/complete passenger trains with prototypical detail. Think of what's been done in the last 10 years. All of the USRA steam locomotive designs have been done at least once (and in the case of the USRA Heavy 4-8-2, the C&O modernized version as well). The Russian Decapod has been done in several variations and at a considerably lower inflation adjusted price than PFM's brass Frisco version. We've had 3 highly detailed K-4's (pre and postwar variations), not to mention an M-1a with an I-1s in the works. Reading's 4-8-4's have been done. How many Reading modelers are there out there besides Jim Hertzog? We've had 2 mfg's announce complete Daylight trains in HO and 1 in N. In the past few years, the "Super Chief" has been done (HO and N), along with the "Empire Builder" and the "California Zephyr" (HO and N). Walthers is producing the 1955 version of the "Twin Cities Hiawatha" along with a model of Milwaukee Union Station. There's more coming all the time.
The real problem isn't the cost of individual models, it's the fact that so much is available right now that it's virtually impossible to get everything one might want unless you're rolling in excess cash. 'Course, the other option, taking a really disciplined approach and avoiding impulse buying is also available. You could, for instance, model Santa Fe's Peavine (Ash Fork, AZ to Phoenix, AZ) in the late 50's. Your passenger train would consist of an A/B F-7 set and 4-5 cars (including a Pullman off the "Grand Canyon" at Ash Fork). Maybe 6-8 freight F's and 4-5 GP-7's should give you adequate power to run the relatively few trains.
Andre
Tom Curtin wrote: Andre is accurately citing a very famous exception to climbing prices: electronic technologies. As he points out, this declining cost curve over time (I don't know how to draw a graph on the forum, or I would do so) applies to all sorts of electronic goods, be they PCs, TVs, DVD/VCRs, and so on. The economics of electronics are a world unto themselves.
Andre is accurately citing a very famous exception to climbing prices: electronic technologies. As he points out, this declining cost curve over time (I don't know how to draw a graph on the forum, or I would do so) applies to all sorts of electronic goods, be they PCs, TVs, DVD/VCRs, and so on. The economics of electronics are a world unto themselves.
A world of economics unto itself? I'd estimate that more than 80% of ALL that is available in the luxury marketplace today is electronically driven in some fashion. Electronics isn't part of the market, it IS the market when it comes to luxury items (as opposed to "necessities").
CNJ831
DCC is a good example of how electronics getting cheaper also has applied to the hobby.
When I first got into DCC in 1993, a DCC system cost close to $500 and decoders were about $50 each.
Nowdays, you can get a very nice starter system for $150 and you can get fleet decoders (with more features than those $50 decoders in 1993) in quantity for just over $11 each.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Tom Curtin wrote: andrechapelon wrote: In the year of its introduction, a color TV cost $1,000 ($7,767.14 in today's dollars). My wife and I just bought a 32" LCD TV for $597 ($76.86 in 1954 dollars). The way I look at it is that I just saved $7170.14 and, even if I split the savings with my wife, I still have over $3500 to buy trains.Things are even better when it comes to computers. Back in 1954, a computer would fill up an entire room, require enough electricity to light a small city and untold numbers of BTU's in air-conditioning capacity. I'm sitting in the bedroom with a computer that my stepson built from off-the-shelf components. The enclosure and all the internal comonents weigh about 10-11 lbs and the monitor weighs about 13 or so (definitely primitive as it's a hand-me-down from my son-in-law and must be at least 2 years old). In addition, there's a 19" LCD TV sitting on the same table on top of a combination DVD/VCR that I vaguely remember cost us about $120 in 2005 (roughly $16.50 in 1954 dollars).Andre is accurately citing a very famous exception to climbing prices: electronic technologies. As he points out, this declining cost curve over time (I don't know how to draw a graph on the forum, or I would do so) applies to all sorts of electronic goods, be they PCs, TVs, DVD/VCRs, and so on. The economics of electronics are a world unto themselves.Now, as I write this I am asking myself --- and perhaps others reading it are too --- "Gee, with the growing electronic invasion into madel railroading (DCC, signalling systems, etc.), with this cost curve start to apply in our hobby?" I think about this and I kind of doubt it, simply because model railroad electronics are for a relatively small niche market segment. There won't be phase of large scale production and widespread adoption.
andrechapelon wrote: In the year of its introduction, a color TV cost $1,000 ($7,767.14 in today's dollars). My wife and I just bought a 32" LCD TV for $597 ($76.86 in 1954 dollars). The way I look at it is that I just saved $7170.14 and, even if I split the savings with my wife, I still have over $3500 to buy trains.Things are even better when it comes to computers. Back in 1954, a computer would fill up an entire room, require enough electricity to light a small city and untold numbers of BTU's in air-conditioning capacity. I'm sitting in the bedroom with a computer that my stepson built from off-the-shelf components. The enclosure and all the internal comonents weigh about 10-11 lbs and the monitor weighs about 13 or so (definitely primitive as it's a hand-me-down from my son-in-law and must be at least 2 years old). In addition, there's a 19" LCD TV sitting on the same table on top of a combination DVD/VCR that I vaguely remember cost us about $120 in 2005 (roughly $16.50 in 1954 dollars).
In the year of its introduction, a color TV cost $1,000 ($7,767.14 in today's dollars). My wife and I just bought a 32" LCD TV for $597 ($76.86 in 1954 dollars). The way I look at it is that I just saved $7170.14 and, even if I split the savings with my wife, I still have over $3500 to buy trains.
Things are even better when it comes to computers. Back in 1954, a computer would fill up an entire room, require enough electricity to light a small city and untold numbers of BTU's in air-conditioning capacity. I'm sitting in the bedroom with a computer that my stepson built from off-the-shelf components. The enclosure and all the internal comonents weigh about 10-11 lbs and the monitor weighs about 13 or so (definitely primitive as it's a hand-me-down from my son-in-law and must be at least 2 years old). In addition, there's a 19" LCD TV sitting on the same table on top of a combination DVD/VCR that I vaguely remember cost us about $120 in 2005 (roughly $16.50 in 1954 dollars).
Wasn't that the same thing people thought about the possibility of having a personal computer way back when?
So what you're saying is, as soon as we can figure out how to run out other household appliances off of DCC, we'll be set in that we will have a not-so-niche market?
The DCC-ready toaster lives again!
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
loathar wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Check out these prices.http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/category_s/477.htm That place has some great deals! Even I could afford Atlas locos at their prices.
BRAKIE wrote: Check out these prices.http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/category_s/477.htm
Check out these prices.
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/category_s/477.htm
That place has some great deals! Even I could afford Atlas locos at their prices.
Yeah,that's one of the best price busters on the net.Their on line inventory is real time..
Before they move they had some great deals..I ordered 3 Atlas cars for the same price my not so local hobby shop wanted for 2.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I don't see what all the hullabaloo is about. One might as well ask if TV sets are getting too cheap. In the year of its introduction, a color TV cost $1,000 ($7,767.14 in today's dollars). My wife and I just bought a 32" LCD TV for $597 ($76.86 in 1954 dollars). The way I look at it is that I just saved $7170.14 and, even if I split the savings with my wife, I still have over $3500 to buy trains.
Things are even better when it comes to computers. Back in 1954, a computer would fill up an entire room, require enough electricity to light a small city and untold numbers of BTU's in air-conditioning capacity. I'm sitting in the bedroom with a computer that my stepson built from off-the-shelf components. The enclosure and all the internal comonents weigh about 10-11 lbs and the monitor weighs about 13 or so (definitely primitive as it's a hand-me-down from my son-in-law and must be at least 2 years old). In addition, there's a 19" LCD TV sitting on the same table on top of a combination DVD/VCR that I vaguely remember cost us about $120 in 2005 (roughly $16.50 in 1954 dollars). 'Course neither the DVD nor the VCR existed back then, but what the hey? Neither did a lot of things now taken for granted (and just to veer back in the direction of being on-topic, you couldn't find DCC and sound equipped locomotives back then).
R. T. POTEET wrote: Autobus Prime wrote: tormadel wrote: I agree. It is not just the cost of MRR, it is the cost of EVERYTHING. I know inflation is a nessary evil (although my econ. student who works for me has failed to provide a satisfactory explinantion why we can't live without it. td:There /are/ bright sides to moderate inflation, believe it or not. If you borrow a certain amount of money at a fixed interest rate, inflation reduces the actual cost of the loan.That good ol' APR at work!"Boy I sure have a low monthly payment!""Oh-h-h-h! My monthly payment has gone sky high!"Give me a fixed percentage rate; I'll be damned if I'm going to give the banks an incentive to raise their rates!!
Autobus Prime wrote: tormadel wrote: I agree. It is not just the cost of MRR, it is the cost of EVERYTHING. I know inflation is a nessary evil (although my econ. student who works for me has failed to provide a satisfactory explinantion why we can't live without it. td:There /are/ bright sides to moderate inflation, believe it or not. If you borrow a certain amount of money at a fixed interest rate, inflation reduces the actual cost of the loan.
tormadel wrote: I agree. It is not just the cost of MRR, it is the cost of EVERYTHING. I know inflation is a nessary evil (although my econ. student who works for me has failed to provide a satisfactory explinantion why we can't live without it.
I agree. It is not just the cost of MRR, it is the cost of EVERYTHING. I know inflation is a nessary evil (although my econ. student who works for me has failed to provide a satisfactory explinantion why we can't live without it.
td:
There /are/ bright sides to moderate inflation, believe it or not. If you borrow a certain amount of money at a fixed interest rate, inflation reduces the actual cost of the loan.
Or better yet, store the credit cards free and clear with a zero balance. Kinda hard to make payments on $0.00
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
They do have good prices, but they are always sold out of the stuff I need 80% of the time. You gotta jump on it within a few weeks of it arriving in stock!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
tormadel wrote: pbjwilson wrote: A lot of remember whens on this topic;Remember when you made a phone call, with a dial phone, and the person you called would actually answer the phone, or the phone would just ring and ring.Remember when people would actually make and keep appointments.Remember when men would open doors for women, stand up when a woman entered a room, offered a woman a seat if none were available, and people in general basicly just had manners.Oh yah, and train stuff cost less.Or if you are 5min late for a doctors appointment they will bump you. But if you arrive 15min early they will make you sit in the waiting room for an hour or more. Shouldn't we be able to charge the office for making use wait? Our time is valuable too.
pbjwilson wrote: A lot of remember whens on this topic;Remember when you made a phone call, with a dial phone, and the person you called would actually answer the phone, or the phone would just ring and ring.Remember when people would actually make and keep appointments.Remember when men would open doors for women, stand up when a woman entered a room, offered a woman a seat if none were available, and people in general basicly just had manners.Oh yah, and train stuff cost less.
A lot of remember whens on this topic;
Remember when you made a phone call, with a dial phone, and the person you called would actually answer the phone, or the phone would just ring and ring.
Remember when people would actually make and keep appointments.
Remember when men would open doors for women, stand up when a woman entered a room, offered a woman a seat if none were available, and people in general basicly just had manners.
Oh yah, and train stuff cost less.
Or if you are 5min late for a doctors appointment they will bump you. But if you arrive 15min early they will make you sit in the waiting room for an hour or more. Shouldn't we be able to charge the office for making use wait? Our time is valuable too.
That is another reason I dont visit the doc unless there is some kind of medical problem that is not contained by home first aid. Usually something that is bleeding badly or broken will recieve priority over everyone else in the room. If you are sick and getting sicker fast and let the nurse know, they will get you in pronto... but you really need to actually be getting sicker by the minute.
Time is not valuable to anyone else but yourself.
And explain to me what is time? Sitting in the Motor Vehicle office behind 40 people waiting to renew tags? Sure it takes two hours of your time for example. What else do you have on your schedule for that day? Laundry? Dishes? Another appointment somewhere else?
In our home we do one appointment somewhere per day. That way all that day will be just for that appointment. Nothing else.
pbjwilson wrote: I made it through the first interviewer and then the boss came into the room to do some more questions. I remained seated as she entered the room. Her first question to me was "So, do your pants match your jacket?" I was totally puzzled by the question.
I made it through the first interviewer and then the boss came into the room to do some more questions. I remained seated as she entered the room. Her first question to me was "So, do your pants match your jacket?" I was totally puzzled by the question.
pbj:
The proper answer, of course, is "Pants?"
And as far as the "remember whens" -- I will hold the door or move for girls (except my GF, she doesn't like it for some reason)... never heard of the standing up bit....
When I was being interviewed for a job a while back I had an incident with not standing up. I was seated at a large table as the first interviewer asked me questions. I made it through the first interviewer and then the boss came into the room to do some more questions. I remained seated as she entered the room. Her first question to me was "So, do your pants match your jacket?" I was totally puzzled by the question. It wasnt until later that I realized I should have stood up, introduced myself, and waited for her to sit down. I tell you, I've never forgotten it and always stand and introduce myself and am aware of etiquette. Now days I'm not so sure if alot of people even are aware of such things.
Guys,Another price busting technique is to buy use at fair use market prices.
While at Train Shows always look under the front of the dealers table.You see dealers will put the higher price items on the table while putting the better deals under the front of the table.
I pick up 2 Atlas GP7s for $40.00 each at one show..
Haggling over prices isn't for buying cars either..Talk to your hobby shop owner..Doesn't hurt and the majority will give a lower price.Some will give you a qoute for buying track and switches in bulk.Some will even quote you a 2 fer price.
Dave Vollmer wrote: IRONROOSTER wrote: tormadel wrote:hehe, yeah. Well bottom line is people still want to get a lg pep pizza drinks and breadstix for $15 but now adays it costs $21.50 including tax and delivery charge. Milk going from $2.55 to $3 they seem to be able to stomach, but the increase in the Big mac is a national crisis heh.Well ------ a Big Mac is one of the Four Essential Food Groups (the others being beer, ice cream, and tobacco). EnjoyPaul I thought the four food groups were "beer, steak, sausage, and bacon..."
IRONROOSTER wrote: tormadel wrote:hehe, yeah. Well bottom line is people still want to get a lg pep pizza drinks and breadstix for $15 but now adays it costs $21.50 including tax and delivery charge. Milk going from $2.55 to $3 they seem to be able to stomach, but the increase in the Big mac is a national crisis heh.Well ------ a Big Mac is one of the Four Essential Food Groups (the others being beer, ice cream, and tobacco). EnjoyPaul
tormadel wrote:hehe, yeah. Well bottom line is people still want to get a lg pep pizza drinks and breadstix for $15 but now adays it costs $21.50 including tax and delivery charge. Milk going from $2.55 to $3 they seem to be able to stomach, but the increase in the Big mac is a national crisis heh.
Well ------ a Big Mac is one of the Four Essential Food Groups (the others being beer, ice cream, and tobacco).
Enjoy
Paul
I thought the four food groups were "beer, steak, sausage, and bacon..."
No, no, no.. the four food groups are beans, bacon, whiskey, and lard! (From the Disney movie Atlantis -- I guess it really is true that Disney movies are cool again after you get into college.... doesn't help any that I have young cousins )
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
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I agree. It is not just the cost of MRR, it is the cost of EVERYTHING. I know inflation is a nessary evil (although my econ. student who works for me has failed to provide a satisfactory explinantion why we can't live without it. Near as I can tell 1 person gets greedy and wants more, then it starts a domino cycle where everybody else has to raise prices to not loose out because someone down the chain of supply from them raised costs so now they have to.)
I'll confess I"m the manager of a pizza delivery place. And I DO feel it when my customers gripe about the costs now. But I've checked up on my national competitors in town and they cost more then we do so. It's not that MY company has unreasonable costs, just that everything is unreasonable these days.
But it's very difficult to communicate to people that they really aren't paying any more here then they would someplace else, I believe because prices are changing too rapidly.