Computers in the world has only speeded up the pace of life.
I remember when the first onboard computers came into the Desiel engines on the 18 wheeler. Too fancy! was the cry; it has to be air breathing or not at all back then.
Wel I suppose we still settle for 6 miles to the gallon with all the fancy doo-dads that serve the company and customers more than the driver these days.
Im liking my DCC and set to get even deeper into it as the years go by.
Now, as I write this I am asking myself --- and perhaps others reading it are too --- "Gee, with the growing electronic invasion into madel railroading (DCC, signalling systems, etc.), with this cost curve start to apply in our hobby?" I think about this and I kind of doubt it, simply because model railroad electronics are for a relatively small niche market segment. There won't be phase of large scale production and widespread adoption.
We're already benefiting from the computer/electronics revolution. The components that go into those systems are essentially off-the-shelf components that benefit from the price drop (not to mention diminishing size) being realized in the electronics/computer industry. Where we won't benefit is in economies of scale in the manufacture of decoders because the market for those decoders is miniscule compared to the market for computers, DVD players, IPod/IPhones, etc. My wife and I were in WallyWorld yesterday where they had a number of Magnavox combination VCR/DVD players for sale for $60 (under $8 in 1954 dollars).
The biggest benefit we've received is one that most people don't think about and that is the reduction in the cost of design and tooling brought about by computers. Without that, there would be no mass (relatively speaking) produced locomotives/cars/complete passenger trains with prototypical detail. Think of what's been done in the last 10 years. All of the USRA steam locomotive designs have been done at least once (and in the case of the USRA Heavy 4-8-2, the C&O modernized version as well). The Russian Decapod has been done in several variations and at a considerably lower inflation adjusted price than PFM's brass Frisco version. We've had 3 highly detailed K-4's (pre and postwar variations), not to mention an M-1a with an I-1s in the works. Reading's 4-8-4's have been done. How many Reading modelers are there out there besides Jim Hertzog? We've had 2 mfg's announce complete Daylight trains in HO and 1 in N. In the past few years, the "Super Chief" has been done (HO and N), along with the "Empire Builder" and the "California Zephyr" (HO and N). Walthers is producing the 1955 version of the "Twin Cities Hiawatha" along with a model of Milwaukee Union Station. There's more coming all the time.
The real problem isn't the cost of individual models, it's the fact that so much is available right now that it's virtually impossible to get everything one might want unless you're rolling in excess cash. 'Course, the other option, taking a really disciplined approach and avoiding impulse buying is also available. You could, for instance, model Santa Fe's Peavine (Ash Fork, AZ to Phoenix, AZ) in the late 50's. Your passenger train would consist of an A/B F-7 set and 4-5 cars (including a Pullman off the "Grand Canyon" at Ash Fork). Maybe 6-8 freight F's and 4-5 GP-7's should give you adequate power to run the relatively few trains.
Andre
Tom Curtin wrote: Andre is accurately citing a very famous exception to climbing prices: electronic technologies. As he points out, this declining cost curve over time (I don't know how to draw a graph on the forum, or I would do so) applies to all sorts of electronic goods, be they PCs, TVs, DVD/VCRs, and so on. The economics of electronics are a world unto themselves.
Andre is accurately citing a very famous exception to climbing prices: electronic technologies. As he points out, this declining cost curve over time (I don't know how to draw a graph on the forum, or I would do so) applies to all sorts of electronic goods, be they PCs, TVs, DVD/VCRs, and so on. The economics of electronics are a world unto themselves.
A world of economics unto itself? I'd estimate that more than 80% of ALL that is available in the luxury marketplace today is electronically driven in some fashion. Electronics isn't part of the market, it IS the market when it comes to luxury items (as opposed to "necessities").
CNJ831
DCC is a good example of how electronics getting cheaper also has applied to the hobby.
When I first got into DCC in 1993, a DCC system cost close to $500 and decoders were about $50 each.
Nowdays, you can get a very nice starter system for $150 and you can get fleet decoders (with more features than those $50 decoders in 1993) in quantity for just over $11 each.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Tom Curtin wrote: andrechapelon wrote: In the year of its introduction, a color TV cost $1,000 ($7,767.14 in today's dollars). My wife and I just bought a 32" LCD TV for $597 ($76.86 in 1954 dollars). The way I look at it is that I just saved $7170.14 and, even if I split the savings with my wife, I still have over $3500 to buy trains.Things are even better when it comes to computers. Back in 1954, a computer would fill up an entire room, require enough electricity to light a small city and untold numbers of BTU's in air-conditioning capacity. I'm sitting in the bedroom with a computer that my stepson built from off-the-shelf components. The enclosure and all the internal comonents weigh about 10-11 lbs and the monitor weighs about 13 or so (definitely primitive as it's a hand-me-down from my son-in-law and must be at least 2 years old). In addition, there's a 19" LCD TV sitting on the same table on top of a combination DVD/VCR that I vaguely remember cost us about $120 in 2005 (roughly $16.50 in 1954 dollars).Andre is accurately citing a very famous exception to climbing prices: electronic technologies. As he points out, this declining cost curve over time (I don't know how to draw a graph on the forum, or I would do so) applies to all sorts of electronic goods, be they PCs, TVs, DVD/VCRs, and so on. The economics of electronics are a world unto themselves.Now, as I write this I am asking myself --- and perhaps others reading it are too --- "Gee, with the growing electronic invasion into madel railroading (DCC, signalling systems, etc.), with this cost curve start to apply in our hobby?" I think about this and I kind of doubt it, simply because model railroad electronics are for a relatively small niche market segment. There won't be phase of large scale production and widespread adoption.
andrechapelon wrote: In the year of its introduction, a color TV cost $1,000 ($7,767.14 in today's dollars). My wife and I just bought a 32" LCD TV for $597 ($76.86 in 1954 dollars). The way I look at it is that I just saved $7170.14 and, even if I split the savings with my wife, I still have over $3500 to buy trains.Things are even better when it comes to computers. Back in 1954, a computer would fill up an entire room, require enough electricity to light a small city and untold numbers of BTU's in air-conditioning capacity. I'm sitting in the bedroom with a computer that my stepson built from off-the-shelf components. The enclosure and all the internal comonents weigh about 10-11 lbs and the monitor weighs about 13 or so (definitely primitive as it's a hand-me-down from my son-in-law and must be at least 2 years old). In addition, there's a 19" LCD TV sitting on the same table on top of a combination DVD/VCR that I vaguely remember cost us about $120 in 2005 (roughly $16.50 in 1954 dollars).
In the year of its introduction, a color TV cost $1,000 ($7,767.14 in today's dollars). My wife and I just bought a 32" LCD TV for $597 ($76.86 in 1954 dollars). The way I look at it is that I just saved $7170.14 and, even if I split the savings with my wife, I still have over $3500 to buy trains.
Things are even better when it comes to computers. Back in 1954, a computer would fill up an entire room, require enough electricity to light a small city and untold numbers of BTU's in air-conditioning capacity. I'm sitting in the bedroom with a computer that my stepson built from off-the-shelf components. The enclosure and all the internal comonents weigh about 10-11 lbs and the monitor weighs about 13 or so (definitely primitive as it's a hand-me-down from my son-in-law and must be at least 2 years old). In addition, there's a 19" LCD TV sitting on the same table on top of a combination DVD/VCR that I vaguely remember cost us about $120 in 2005 (roughly $16.50 in 1954 dollars).
Wasn't that the same thing people thought about the possibility of having a personal computer way back when?
So what you're saying is, as soon as we can figure out how to run out other household appliances off of DCC, we'll be set in that we will have a not-so-niche market?
The DCC-ready toaster lives again!
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
loathar wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Check out these prices.http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/category_s/477.htm That place has some great deals! Even I could afford Atlas locos at their prices.
BRAKIE wrote: Check out these prices.http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/category_s/477.htm
Check out these prices.
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/category_s/477.htm
That place has some great deals! Even I could afford Atlas locos at their prices.
Yeah,that's one of the best price busters on the net.Their on line inventory is real time..
Before they move they had some great deals..I ordered 3 Atlas cars for the same price my not so local hobby shop wanted for 2.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I don't see what all the hullabaloo is about. One might as well ask if TV sets are getting too cheap. In the year of its introduction, a color TV cost $1,000 ($7,767.14 in today's dollars). My wife and I just bought a 32" LCD TV for $597 ($76.86 in 1954 dollars). The way I look at it is that I just saved $7170.14 and, even if I split the savings with my wife, I still have over $3500 to buy trains.
Things are even better when it comes to computers. Back in 1954, a computer would fill up an entire room, require enough electricity to light a small city and untold numbers of BTU's in air-conditioning capacity. I'm sitting in the bedroom with a computer that my stepson built from off-the-shelf components. The enclosure and all the internal comonents weigh about 10-11 lbs and the monitor weighs about 13 or so (definitely primitive as it's a hand-me-down from my son-in-law and must be at least 2 years old). In addition, there's a 19" LCD TV sitting on the same table on top of a combination DVD/VCR that I vaguely remember cost us about $120 in 2005 (roughly $16.50 in 1954 dollars). 'Course neither the DVD nor the VCR existed back then, but what the hey? Neither did a lot of things now taken for granted (and just to veer back in the direction of being on-topic, you couldn't find DCC and sound equipped locomotives back then).
R. T. POTEET wrote: Autobus Prime wrote: tormadel wrote: I agree. It is not just the cost of MRR, it is the cost of EVERYTHING. I know inflation is a nessary evil (although my econ. student who works for me has failed to provide a satisfactory explinantion why we can't live without it. td:There /are/ bright sides to moderate inflation, believe it or not. If you borrow a certain amount of money at a fixed interest rate, inflation reduces the actual cost of the loan.That good ol' APR at work!"Boy I sure have a low monthly payment!""Oh-h-h-h! My monthly payment has gone sky high!"Give me a fixed percentage rate; I'll be damned if I'm going to give the banks an incentive to raise their rates!!
Autobus Prime wrote: tormadel wrote: I agree. It is not just the cost of MRR, it is the cost of EVERYTHING. I know inflation is a nessary evil (although my econ. student who works for me has failed to provide a satisfactory explinantion why we can't live without it. td:There /are/ bright sides to moderate inflation, believe it or not. If you borrow a certain amount of money at a fixed interest rate, inflation reduces the actual cost of the loan.
tormadel wrote: I agree. It is not just the cost of MRR, it is the cost of EVERYTHING. I know inflation is a nessary evil (although my econ. student who works for me has failed to provide a satisfactory explinantion why we can't live without it.
I agree. It is not just the cost of MRR, it is the cost of EVERYTHING. I know inflation is a nessary evil (although my econ. student who works for me has failed to provide a satisfactory explinantion why we can't live without it.
td:
There /are/ bright sides to moderate inflation, believe it or not. If you borrow a certain amount of money at a fixed interest rate, inflation reduces the actual cost of the loan.
Or better yet, store the credit cards free and clear with a zero balance. Kinda hard to make payments on $0.00
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
They do have good prices, but they are always sold out of the stuff I need 80% of the time. You gotta jump on it within a few weeks of it arriving in stock!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
tormadel wrote: pbjwilson wrote: A lot of remember whens on this topic;Remember when you made a phone call, with a dial phone, and the person you called would actually answer the phone, or the phone would just ring and ring.Remember when people would actually make and keep appointments.Remember when men would open doors for women, stand up when a woman entered a room, offered a woman a seat if none were available, and people in general basicly just had manners.Oh yah, and train stuff cost less.Or if you are 5min late for a doctors appointment they will bump you. But if you arrive 15min early they will make you sit in the waiting room for an hour or more. Shouldn't we be able to charge the office for making use wait? Our time is valuable too.
pbjwilson wrote: A lot of remember whens on this topic;Remember when you made a phone call, with a dial phone, and the person you called would actually answer the phone, or the phone would just ring and ring.Remember when people would actually make and keep appointments.Remember when men would open doors for women, stand up when a woman entered a room, offered a woman a seat if none were available, and people in general basicly just had manners.Oh yah, and train stuff cost less.
A lot of remember whens on this topic;
Remember when you made a phone call, with a dial phone, and the person you called would actually answer the phone, or the phone would just ring and ring.
Remember when people would actually make and keep appointments.
Remember when men would open doors for women, stand up when a woman entered a room, offered a woman a seat if none were available, and people in general basicly just had manners.
Oh yah, and train stuff cost less.
Or if you are 5min late for a doctors appointment they will bump you. But if you arrive 15min early they will make you sit in the waiting room for an hour or more. Shouldn't we be able to charge the office for making use wait? Our time is valuable too.
That is another reason I dont visit the doc unless there is some kind of medical problem that is not contained by home first aid. Usually something that is bleeding badly or broken will recieve priority over everyone else in the room. If you are sick and getting sicker fast and let the nurse know, they will get you in pronto... but you really need to actually be getting sicker by the minute.
Time is not valuable to anyone else but yourself.
And explain to me what is time? Sitting in the Motor Vehicle office behind 40 people waiting to renew tags? Sure it takes two hours of your time for example. What else do you have on your schedule for that day? Laundry? Dishes? Another appointment somewhere else?
In our home we do one appointment somewhere per day. That way all that day will be just for that appointment. Nothing else.
pbjwilson wrote: I made it through the first interviewer and then the boss came into the room to do some more questions. I remained seated as she entered the room. Her first question to me was "So, do your pants match your jacket?" I was totally puzzled by the question.
I made it through the first interviewer and then the boss came into the room to do some more questions. I remained seated as she entered the room. Her first question to me was "So, do your pants match your jacket?" I was totally puzzled by the question.
pbj:
The proper answer, of course, is "Pants?"
And as far as the "remember whens" -- I will hold the door or move for girls (except my GF, she doesn't like it for some reason)... never heard of the standing up bit....
When I was being interviewed for a job a while back I had an incident with not standing up. I was seated at a large table as the first interviewer asked me questions. I made it through the first interviewer and then the boss came into the room to do some more questions. I remained seated as she entered the room. Her first question to me was "So, do your pants match your jacket?" I was totally puzzled by the question. It wasnt until later that I realized I should have stood up, introduced myself, and waited for her to sit down. I tell you, I've never forgotten it and always stand and introduce myself and am aware of etiquette. Now days I'm not so sure if alot of people even are aware of such things.
Guys,Another price busting technique is to buy use at fair use market prices.
While at Train Shows always look under the front of the dealers table.You see dealers will put the higher price items on the table while putting the better deals under the front of the table.
I pick up 2 Atlas GP7s for $40.00 each at one show..
Haggling over prices isn't for buying cars either..Talk to your hobby shop owner..Doesn't hurt and the majority will give a lower price.Some will give you a qoute for buying track and switches in bulk.Some will even quote you a 2 fer price.
Dave Vollmer wrote: IRONROOSTER wrote: tormadel wrote:hehe, yeah. Well bottom line is people still want to get a lg pep pizza drinks and breadstix for $15 but now adays it costs $21.50 including tax and delivery charge. Milk going from $2.55 to $3 they seem to be able to stomach, but the increase in the Big mac is a national crisis heh.Well ------ a Big Mac is one of the Four Essential Food Groups (the others being beer, ice cream, and tobacco). EnjoyPaul I thought the four food groups were "beer, steak, sausage, and bacon..."
IRONROOSTER wrote: tormadel wrote:hehe, yeah. Well bottom line is people still want to get a lg pep pizza drinks and breadstix for $15 but now adays it costs $21.50 including tax and delivery charge. Milk going from $2.55 to $3 they seem to be able to stomach, but the increase in the Big mac is a national crisis heh.Well ------ a Big Mac is one of the Four Essential Food Groups (the others being beer, ice cream, and tobacco). EnjoyPaul
tormadel wrote:hehe, yeah. Well bottom line is people still want to get a lg pep pizza drinks and breadstix for $15 but now adays it costs $21.50 including tax and delivery charge. Milk going from $2.55 to $3 they seem to be able to stomach, but the increase in the Big mac is a national crisis heh.
Well ------ a Big Mac is one of the Four Essential Food Groups (the others being beer, ice cream, and tobacco).
Enjoy
Paul
I thought the four food groups were "beer, steak, sausage, and bacon..."
No, no, no.. the four food groups are beans, bacon, whiskey, and lard! (From the Disney movie Atlantis -- I guess it really is true that Disney movies are cool again after you get into college.... doesn't help any that I have young cousins )
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
SAVE 50% 4 CAR F7 DIESEL FREIGHT TRAIN Special Purchase! AHC scoops them all with this sensational ATHEARN 1959 ready-to-run train set at less than half price! Set includes Diesel F7 "A" unit powered, "B" unit dummy, box car, tank car, flat car with load and caboose. Also--circle of Snap-Track, Rerailer & terminal track. Quantity is limited, so rush your order. Ask for Bargain Deal "R1199" $24.00 Value, 11.99
B&O 2-8-8-4 ............................................................ $97.50Here's the sensational ready-to-run beauty by IMP TAKARA. It's just about the most finely detailed loco you can buy. Heavy gauge brass with square tender. 30" radius. Full working valve gear. ORDER THIS OR ANY IMPORTED MODELS FROM AHC. If available anywhere--you can get it from us!
I agree. It is not just the cost of MRR, it is the cost of EVERYTHING. I know inflation is a nessary evil (although my econ. student who works for me has failed to provide a satisfactory explinantion why we can't live without it. Near as I can tell 1 person gets greedy and wants more, then it starts a domino cycle where everybody else has to raise prices to not loose out because someone down the chain of supply from them raised costs so now they have to.)
I'll confess I"m the manager of a pizza delivery place. And I DO feel it when my customers gripe about the costs now. But I've checked up on my national competitors in town and they cost more then we do so. It's not that MY company has unreasonable costs, just that everything is unreasonable these days.
But it's very difficult to communicate to people that they really aren't paying any more here then they would someplace else, I believe because prices are changing too rapidly.
on30francisco wrote: BRAKIE wrote:Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.I believe that was AHC - America's Hobby Center.
BRAKIE wrote:Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.
I believe that was AHC - America's Hobby Center.
Ah yes! AHC..LOL! I hate senior moments.
Thanks for the correction..
Tom Curtin wrote: But, here goes anyway: my first brass was a PFM Nickel Plate Berk purchased in 1968 for $64.95 (which was list at the time). My inflation calculator says that works out to $378.89 today. Now, I searched through a few brass dealers and found the same engine for sale for between $225 and $449. Problem is, being a 40 year old model, the comparison is largely meaningless --- what I should quote is what dealers are getting for an identical or similar NEW brass steam loco today. There aren't any new NKP Berks around, so I can't do that close a comparison.
But, here goes anyway: my first brass was a PFM Nickel Plate Berk purchased in 1968 for $64.95 (which was list at the time). My inflation calculator says that works out to $378.89 today. Now, I searched through a few brass dealers and found the same engine for sale for between $225 and $449. Problem is, being a 40 year old model, the comparison is largely meaningless --- what I should quote is what dealers are getting for an identical or similar NEW brass steam loco today. There aren't any new NKP Berks around, so I can't do that close a comparison.
Well, when you do find a currently in production one, or something reasonably comparable, you'll also find out that today it costs 3x to 4x your adjusted-for-inflation figure.
Yes I remember America's Hobby Center well . . . a crowded 2nd floor walkup somewhere down around the "garment district" of Manhattan. I often shopped there both by mail and in person. I have to say I do not remember them being a discounter, not in the mid 60s anyway. However, they may have begun discounting later. I think they still exist in the New York area somewhere. The other thing I remember ( for some reason) was that the owner's name was Bernie, and he was --- well, kind of "Gruff," although in an endearing sort of way.
Now ---- since I'm on an inflation calculator roll, let me use an example of a brass import. The standard inflation calculation might fall apart with brass because there is such a complex combination of factors influencing the prices. But, here goes anyway: my first brass was a PFM Nickel Plate Berk purchased in 1968 for $64.95 (which was list at the time). My inflation calculator says that works out to $378.89 today. Now, I searched through a few brass dealers and found the same engine for sale for between $225 and $449. Problem is, being a 40 year old model, the comparison is largely meaningless --- what I should quote is what dealers are getting for an identical or similar NEW brass steam loco today. There aren't any new NKP Berks around, so I can't do that close a comparison.
Falls Valley RR wrote: on30francisco wrote: BRAKIE wrote:Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.I believe that was AHC - America's Hobby Center. Wasnt it American Hobby Manufacters? AHM?
Wasnt it American Hobby Manufacters? AHM?
Although AHM also had large ads in Model Railroader, AHC was always on the second or third page of every issue of MR and had two page ads. As online ordering became more popular, their ads shrunk to one page and eventually went the way of the 8 track. AHC was a discount hobby shop in New York that sold items from Atlas, Life Like,Tyco, MDC, etc by mail at a discount. Remember their own brand of turnouts called "Amtron" for $1.25?
Tom Curtin wrote: Since I will hit my 50th anniversary in Model Railroading in a few weeks, this is a good time to cite the example of my first engine. It was an Athearn "Blue box" F7, powered A/Dummy B pair, which retailed in Dec. 1957 at 6.95 for the A and 3.00 for the B --- $9.95 total. Looking that figure up in a consumer price index table gives a figure of $71.29 today.The Athearn catalog offers the F7 pwered A & dummy B (together) today for $69.98. you can probably find it discounted (1957 was before the days of discounting).Admittedly this is only one example but it's amazing how close that is to the CPI.BTW, that 1957 Athearn was rubber band "HiF" drive, painted in PRR passenger tuscan red, which I learned years later was not prototypically correct for an F-7. You had to keep a supply of replacement rubber bands on hand at all times. I'm sure today's engine is a much better product.
Since I will hit my 50th anniversary in Model Railroading in a few weeks, this is a good time to cite the example of my first engine. It was an Athearn "Blue box" F7, powered A/Dummy B pair, which retailed in Dec. 1957 at 6.95 for the A and 3.00 for the B --- $9.95 total. Looking that figure up in a consumer price index table gives a figure of $71.29 today.
The Athearn catalog offers the F7 pwered A & dummy B (together) today for $69.98. you can probably find it discounted (1957 was before the days of discounting).
Admittedly this is only one example but it's amazing how close that is to the CPI.
BTW, that 1957 Athearn was rubber band "HiF" drive, painted in PRR passenger tuscan red, which I learned years later was not prototypically correct for an F-7. You had to keep a supply of replacement rubber bands on hand at all times. I'm sure today's engine is a much better product.
Yup. Sounds about right. Interestingly enough, you can get an A/B set of Athearn BB F-7's with both units powered (geared with flywheel) for an inflation adjusted price lower (and with much better truck detail) than the Hi-F power/dummy combo you got 50 years ago. Paint jobs are better, too. http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=F7+A%2fB+RTR&CatID=THLD
Naturally, that's MSRP. You can get them for less than that.
BRAKIE wrote: That's cool That's cool!! And as you pointed it will work as this young lad proves..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3DugcOQYL4&feature=related
That's cool That's cool!! And as you pointed it will work as this young lad proves..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3DugcOQYL4&feature=related
Yep, and where there's a will there's a way! That video reminds me of when I was a kid and playing with trains with my dad in the 1970's.
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
Autobus Prime wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Guys,Let's look at it another way..One can enjoy model railroading with say 2 locomotives,a hand full of cars and then join a local club.By buying at discount I would say less then $600.00 will put you in the hobby..No club? Then another $1200.00 should cover a Industrial Switching Layout or 4x8 footer.So,by going with "less is better" you need not spend a small fortune.Of course and speaking from my own experience we all tend to buy far more then we will ever need or can use.B:Goodness, you don't even have to spend nearly that much. Let's see...Table, built from 1/2" CDX plywood, 2 x 3 legs, 1 x 3s salvaged from removed tile ceiling, deck screws, glue, drywall screws, carriage bolts - about $40 overall, perhaps $60 if I had to buy the 1 x 3s.New track - Total $252 packs new Atlas 22"R, 1 pack 9" straights, 2 packs joinersUsed track - Total $7: 1 Box o' fun from train show, $5, including 4 brass remote snap-switches and much snap-track1 box o' fun from last year's show, $2, full of Tru-Scale switches I haven't used yet, and one Atlas brass wye which I have used.Reused track - Total about $30Three NS #4 Custom-Line switches, which I did buy new. However, I bought them three layouts ago, so I've been spending this same $30 bill since then...if I was just starting, of course, I'd have to count this.Powerpack - Total $15:1 MRC Ampack from train show, $5Rat Shack parts to upgrade Ampack to transistor throttle, under $10Equipment - Total about $43 :(N.B. I know it's hard to believe, but I actually have /a little more/ than I can use, so I'm just including what I am using in my daily operations)Life-Like 0-4-0T Teakettle - $29 new, 6 years ago. Remotored with salvaged tape player motor.(While the remotor job was easy, it involved a certain element of luck, and I don'tremember what kind of tape player the motor came from. I tend to compulsively scrapevery failed electronic device and toss its usable parts in a box for later. There areother ways to get cheap, good-running steam. You can get great deals at train showsif you look and take care to test and check for wear before buying.)Steel boxcars - 2 Life-Like 40', 1 Model Power 40', from train shows, about $2 ea.OB wooden boxcars - 2 Life-Like, $2 each from train shows.50' flat - Tyco, $2 at train show40' combine - Tyco, $3 at train show(Yes, these do still have plastic wheels and horn-hooks. I'm uncoupling with a 16d nail.Eventually some or all will be upgraded, but I wanted to experiment.)Track cleaning slider-car made from eminently suitable Life-Like 40' box - free, homebuilt from car in box o' fun #1 and scrap materials.Obnoxiously unkillable Life-Like sidewinder F to pull track cleaner - free, was included in box o' fun #1. Also works obnoxiously well on modified Ampack after so much 150mph running.So, as you can see, I am now happily operating my Plywood Pacific, and the total cost was well under $200, including $60 spent on material reused from previous layouts, and $20 in lumber that was salvaged and actually cost me nothing. Much of what I did spend was spread out over the several months it took me, working in little bits at a time, to construct the table and rebuild the Ampack. Some of that was a little tedious, but now I'm having a great time.
BRAKIE wrote: Guys,Let's look at it another way..One can enjoy model railroading with say 2 locomotives,a hand full of cars and then join a local club.By buying at discount I would say less then $600.00 will put you in the hobby..No club? Then another $1200.00 should cover a Industrial Switching Layout or 4x8 footer.So,by going with "less is better" you need not spend a small fortune.Of course and speaking from my own experience we all tend to buy far more then we will ever need or can use.
Of course and speaking from my own experience we all tend to buy far more then we will ever need or can use.
B:
Goodness, you don't even have to spend nearly that much. Let's see...
Table, built from 1/2" CDX plywood, 2 x 3 legs, 1 x 3s salvaged from removed tile ceiling, deck screws, glue, drywall screws, carriage bolts - about $40 overall, perhaps $60 if I had to buy the 1 x 3s.
New track - Total $25
2 packs new Atlas 22"R, 1 pack 9" straights, 2 packs joiners
Used track - Total $7:
1 Box o' fun from train show, $5, including 4 brass remote snap-switches and much snap-track1 box o' fun from last year's show, $2, full of Tru-Scale switches I haven't used yet, and one Atlas brass wye which I have used.
Reused track - Total about $30Three NS #4 Custom-Line switches, which I did buy new. However, I bought them three layouts ago, so I've been spending this same $30 bill since then...if I was just starting, of course, I'd have to count this.
Powerpack - Total $15:
1 MRC Ampack from train show, $5Rat Shack parts to upgrade Ampack to transistor throttle, under $10
Equipment - Total about $43 :
(N.B. I know it's hard to believe, but I actually have /a little more/ than I can use, so I'm just including what I am using in my daily operations)
Life-Like 0-4-0T Teakettle - $29 new, 6 years ago. Remotored with salvaged tape player motor.(While the remotor job was easy, it involved a certain element of luck, and I don'tremember what kind of tape player the motor came from. I tend to compulsively scrapevery failed electronic device and toss its usable parts in a box for later. There areother ways to get cheap, good-running steam. You can get great deals at train showsif you look and take care to test and check for wear before buying.)
Steel boxcars - 2 Life-Like 40', 1 Model Power 40', from train shows, about $2 ea.
OB wooden boxcars - 2 Life-Like, $2 each from train shows.
50' flat - Tyco, $2 at train show
40' combine - Tyco, $3 at train show
(Yes, these do still have plastic wheels and horn-hooks. I'm uncoupling with a 16d nail.Eventually some or all will be upgraded, but I wanted to experiment.)
Track cleaning slider-car made from eminently suitable Life-Like 40' box - free, homebuilt from car in box o' fun #1 and scrap materials.
Obnoxiously unkillable Life-Like sidewinder F to pull track cleaner - free, was included in box o' fun #1. Also works obnoxiously well on modified Ampack after so much 150mph running.
So, as you can see, I am now happily operating my Plywood Pacific, and the total cost was well under $200, including $60 spent on material reused from previous layouts, and $20 in lumber that was salvaged and actually cost me nothing. Much of what I did spend was spread out over the several months it took me, working in little bits at a time, to construct the table and rebuild the Ampack. Some of that was a little tedious, but now I'm having a great time.
BRAKIE wrote:...Of course and speaking from my own experience we all tend to buy far more then we will ever need or can use.
...
I think I'll need an airplane hangar layout to use it all.
Guys,Let's look at it another way..One can enjoy model railroading with say 2 locomotives,a hand full of cars and then join a local club.By buying at discount I would say less then $600.00 will put you in the hobby..No club? Then another $1200.00 should cover a Industrial Switching Layout or 4x8 footer.So,by going with "less is better" you need not spend a small fortune.
Although Walthers does sell items at sale and MSRP prices direct to the consumer, since Walthers is also a supplier to almost every train shop in the US, they are aware that they can't really sell at "street" prices because then they would be competing against their own customers... the train shops who use Walthers as a distributor. So they generally sell at MSRP. Largeness doesn't really have anything to do with volume and pricing in this case.
Ahhhh, that does make sense. I used to deal with a computer parts distributor and they wouldn't sell you direct just because they'd be competing with their own customers. Thanks for explaining that.
tomikawaTT wrote: secondhandmodeler wrote:This will be my one and only post to this thread. The price of a subscription to MR is quite high compared to other magazines. I couldn't believe the price for a years subscription. It is two to three times higher than other magazines I subscribe to.If you think that MR is expensive, try subscribing to an overseas model magazine. My subscription to Tetsudo Mokei Shumi costs me +- $200/year - more than some other people spend on the entire hobby!Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
secondhandmodeler wrote:This will be my one and only post to this thread. The price of a subscription to MR is quite high compared to other magazines. I couldn't believe the price for a years subscription. It is two to three times higher than other magazines I subscribe to.
If you think that MR is expensive, try subscribing to an overseas model magazine. My subscription to Tetsudo Mokei Shumi costs me +- $200/year - more than some other people spend on the entire hobby!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Doesn't that just make you wish for the Good Old Days when the Yen was about 633 to the dollar and you could buy a brand new Datsun 510 for just a shade over $2000 out the door?
Remember the Honda 50, that "groovy little motor bike"? The one that sold for about $220 or so in the mid 60's?
Andre - waxing nostalgic and getting off-topic
tormadel wrote: I would really like a EL SDP45 or 2. But with the price of even plastic models today I am horribly afriad to trust my dubious kitbashing skills.
I would really like a EL SDP45 or 2. But with the price of even plastic models today I am horribly afriad to trust my dubious kitbashing skills.
Well, get them un-dubious with some practice. Find something you can kitbash from old swap-meet stuff. It's cheap, and if it goes sour you at least get experience for the next one. You can't let fear hold you back. There's always going to be stuff nobody is making, or that nobody can get because it is some preorder-only hyper-limited awesome exclusive thing...
You could...
...make an old Lifelike F40PH into a "cabbage".
...cut down an AHM SD40 into a slug unit.
...convert a B-unit F into a heater car
...make some Geep B-units,
etc. All of these would be easy, cheap, and possibly usable items that would help you become a skilled kitbasher, and bring that SD45 project within reach.
tormadel wrote:I get my PC Gamer Magazine for $19.95 a year, but that is also the teaser price. Cover price on the things are $8.95 ea. And you can find subscriptions to MR and things cheaper if you browse the net. MR's website subscription is $42, but I found a clearing house selling the subscription for $24. I can easily stomach that.
I have used some of those clearing houses to subscribe to magazines and have never had any problems with missing issues or anything else.
IRONROOSTER wrote: MR is higher than magazines in other fields. Many of these want high circulation for higher advertsing rates so they keep their subscription rates low. There's a lot more folks playing computer games than building model railroads so that works for PCGamer and others. Personally, I enjoy MR and get more out of it than I do PCGamer.S Gaugian is $36 a year for 6 issues each a lot smaller than MR. It also has a much smaller circulation than MR. But it's all S so it's worth it to me. EnjoyPaul
MR is higher than magazines in other fields. Many of these want high circulation for higher advertsing rates so they keep their subscription rates low. There's a lot more folks playing computer games than building model railroads so that works for PCGamer and others. Personally, I enjoy MR and get more out of it than I do PCGamer.
S Gaugian is $36 a year for 6 issues each a lot smaller than MR. It also has a much smaller circulation than MR. But it's all S so it's worth it to me.
This is the point I was making when I complained last week about the high cost of model railroading. I think its expensive, and I don't like that. HOWEVER, I completely understand why it is expensive. It really is not that popular a hobby. In order for companies to make a profit they need to charge more $$$$. And I'm not comparing the hobby now to any other time in history. I am not speaking of the cost relative to 20 years ago, 30 years ago, or whatever. I am only 28 years old. When I say I think it is expensive, I mean I feel that some, repeat SOME, of the items (like turnouts) cost way more than what it actually takes to make them. I understand that there are research and development costs. I work in the Pharma industry and believe me I know how much is spent on R & D. But, I really don't think there has been any revolutionary new concepts applied to turnouts. I could be wrong, and I'm sure someone will call me on it.
Just my opinion,
Smitty
Bob, I do note that Popular Photography has a circulation of >400,000 per month, and, as you say, they are mostly ads. Also, their ads are coming from some big dollar broad consumer market companies, so their cost recovery from sales compared to the advertising dollars is probably a lot less important. Thsy need high circulation to keep their advertising revenue up. I don't think the MR market is quite so dynamic.
David
I usually don't dive into these opinion type threads, but for my two cents. I just make do with what I got. If I can't afford it , I don't get it. Hobbies are nice but they are just that. I certainly don't try to keep up with the Jones's. I have disposable income that some would say is large , but I'm not going to spend it all on a hobby.
Yes some parts of the hobby are expensive , DCC is one, for my part. I could go out today and buy a great system, but I choose not too. I'd rather use that money for other things hobby related and non-hobby related. maybe someday I'll get the bug to buy that DCC system , I even dropped one of the RR mags , I felt two was a waste. I kept MR so you can guess the one I dropped.
Jerry SP FOREVER http://photobucket.com/albums/f317/GAPPLEG/
Arjay1969 wrote: secondhandmodeler wrote:I take the one and only post comment back. Most magazines, whether specialized or not, run between $12 and $20. I almost fell over when I saw $43 for twelve magazines. You can't tell me that doesn't sound a little high. Uhm. By those figures, it works out to $3.58 a month. The cover price for MR (I have the current issue sitting in front of me) is $5.95. I don't consider that to be high for a specialty magazine.
secondhandmodeler wrote:I take the one and only post comment back. Most magazines, whether specialized or not, run between $12 and $20. I almost fell over when I saw $43 for twelve magazines. You can't tell me that doesn't sound a little high.
Uhm. By those figures, it works out to $3.58 a month. The cover price for MR (I have the current issue sitting in front of me) is $5.95. I don't consider that to be high for a specialty magazine.
Robert Beaty
The Laughing Hippie
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The CF-7...a waste of a perfectly good F-unit!
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the
end of your tunnel, Was just a freight train coming
your way. -Metallica, No Leaf Clover
AltoonaRailroader wrote: Just this morning I was doing some internet shopping for the following products. I'm not sure where all these places are, some are in California and on in Wyoming, but most of the shipping charges was about $7-9 give or take. Here's what I was looking for and who had what prices. Please add more if you know some place for less. Items: All Nickel Silver except the roadbed of course.3 Atlas #6 Left Code 1001 Atlas #6 Right Code 1001 Atlas #4 Left Code 10025pc Midwest Cork Roadbed5 3' Altas Superflex flex track NHS hobbies had the best price over all: $76.26 Some items on saleAtlas.com was second with: $82.45 But would not calculate shipping until order was placed. Local LHS Gene's Trains: $86.04 This of course has no shipping because it's local.Cherry Creek Hobbies: $103.00 This had the highest shipping at $9.75And last was Go Hobbies. Inc. $108.34 Just a little too pricy. I know there's probably a dozen other places that I missed or just did not list. One thing I will say though is that it seemed that for as big as Wathers is they were the most expensive. I would think that the bigger or more popular companies would be able to sell at better prices just do to shear product movement. Just my That was wierd, just as I finished this post I experience Da-Ja-Vue.
Just this morning I was doing some internet shopping for the following products. I'm not sure where all these places are, some are in California and on in Wyoming, but most of the shipping charges was about $7-9 give or take. Here's what I was looking for and who had what prices. Please add more if you know some place for less.
Items: All Nickel Silver except the roadbed of course.
3 Atlas #6 Left Code 100
1 Atlas #6 Right Code 100
1 Atlas #4 Left Code 100
25pc Midwest Cork Roadbed
5 3' Altas Superflex flex track
NHS hobbies had the best price over all: $76.26 Some items on sale
Atlas.com was second with: $82.45 But would not calculate shipping until order was placed.
Local LHS Gene's Trains: $86.04 This of course has no shipping because it's local.
Cherry Creek Hobbies: $103.00 This had the highest shipping at $9.75
And last was Go Hobbies. Inc. $108.34 Just a little too pricy.
I know there's probably a dozen other places that I missed or just did not list. One thing I will say though is that it seemed that for as big as Wathers is they were the most expensive. I would think that the bigger or more popular companies would be able to sell at better prices just do to shear product movement.
Just my
That was wierd, just as I finished this post I experience Da-Ja-Vue.
whitman500 wrote: secondhandmodeler wrote:In all fairness, I should probably take the circulation numbers of magazines into consideration. A few of the magazines I cited have a circulation of a half million to a million and a half. Does anyone know the circulation numbers for Model Railroader?I'm not sure but 300K seems to stick in my mind as the approximate number of subscribers.
secondhandmodeler wrote:In all fairness, I should probably take the circulation numbers of magazines into consideration. A few of the magazines I cited have a circulation of a half million to a million and a half. Does anyone know the circulation numbers for Model Railroader?
I'm not sure but 300K seems to stick in my mind as the approximate number of subscribers.
MR has about 150,000 circulation per issue.
DavidH wrote: With all due respect, I'm not aware of too many glossy magazines with subscription rates of 12 to 20 dollars per year for 12 issues. I don't know what postage alone would be, but I am assuming it would have to be at least 50 cents per issue. Any examples?David
With all due respect, I'm not aware of too many glossy magazines with subscription rates of 12 to 20 dollars per year for 12 issues. I don't know what postage alone would be, but I am assuming it would have to be at least 50 cents per issue. Any examples?
I just subscribed to Popular Photography & Imaging for three years, $38.00 to me in Canada. Can't beat that! Of course it's mostly ads, but the few articles are worth a little over one dollar per issue. Usually magazines to Canada are $15-20 more because of the postage.
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
Additional 2 cents from me. My father owned a fair number of brass HO locos. He got them mail order and at swap meets. I don't think very many of them were NEW, slightly used I believe. Some of them were really pretty some of them less so. And almost none of them he had were ever painted. But the bottomline I'm getting to is, they all ran like crap, if they ran at all. Dad seemed to think they were too expensive to paint, but who wants to run the metallic & No name railroad?
So in my humble opinion for the price I would always go with quality plastic over brass. The only reason I even look at brass is to try and find a model of locomotive I can't find in plastic.
(my emphasis added)
I used to subscribe to PC gamer and Computer Games, PCG was about $25/yr and CG was $40ish (but they had a CD than came with every issue of all the "latest" demos). My MR subscription was in the $30-$40 range. I'd say that's pretty fair, especially considering the "exclusive" online content for subscribers... I can only compare this to the mid-90's but the price hasn't gone up too much to the point of being "out of line".
As far as everything else goes, I would love to be able to buy the $4000 brass BLI locos, or even the $400 ones from BLI/P2K/etc... but that's just not in the cards. So I'm going to settle for the $150 Bowser kits that start out at "pretty close" and go from there...
DavidH wrote: With all due respect, I'm not aware of too many glossy magazines with subscription rates of 12 to 20 dollars per year for 12 issues. I don't know what postage alone would be, but I am assuming it would have to be at least 50 cents per issue. Any examples? David
Home theater, GQ, Powder, Details, Esquires, Field and stream, Motor Trend, Guns and Ammo, etc. All of these magazines are between ten and twenty-two dollars for twelve issues. I havn't found one that is over twenty-five dollars.
CNJ831 wrote:As long as the posted "facts and figures" suggest things are going well, they are accepted as 100% correct and accurate. However, let the numbers tend to indicate perhaps everything isn't perfect and they immediately become invalid, were taken out of context, anything, just so long as they can be disregarded. And then the poster of any possibly more reliable information is publicly insulted in hopes of discrediting him. Such a stance reflects a position more of posters' desperation of being unable to accept change, that things MUST remain status quo, rather than from intelligently evaluating what information is available and reaching an unfettered conclusion from them. Little wonder that 95% of all the really serious model railroaders who have ever passed through this forum, have soon left it.But don't worry, remember, the Titanic is unsinkable! CNJ831
But don't worry, remember, the Titanic is unsinkable!
CN:
Like the saying goes, there's lies, damned lies, and there's statistics.
Not all the statistics agree with the gloom and doom view. Some statistics support hobby growth/stasis/good health.
And then there's interpreting the facts. We could be wrong you know. None of us is all-knowing, and that's the point of bringing up predictions made 40 years ago about the health of the hobby. They were wrong then, and we could be wrong now.
I offer counter arguments not because I'm sticking my head in the sand as you suggest, but to point out you also are biased and are chosing to ignore data that doesn't support your view.
My honest view is the reality is somewhere in the middle -- it's not as awful as you suggest, nor does it have a rosey future of great growth ahead of it some are hoping.
I do believe the hobby is destined to shrink somewhat in the decades ahead, but not nearly as rapidly as some fear -- the huge interest in Thomas and Polar Express shows there is still a huge fascination with trains among the public. I also believe the dynamics of the hobby will change, making it so that modelers pursue it somewhat differently than they have in the past -- but it will not die.
I see the internet working to our advantage, allowing a slowly shrinking modeler base to keep in touch and keep passion high -- and the internet fosters a cheap mom-and-pop business model since you can reach your market for next to nothing. I expect a good supply of hobby products we enjoy now to somewhat continue, thanks to the internet.
To summarize, if you are honest with all the data (and not ignoring data that doesn't agree with your bias), neither gloom and doom nor wonderful and rosey are supported as the future of the hobby. The hobby is most certainly changing and will be pursued differently in the years ahead. But it isn't going to die any more than WWII aircraft modeling has died because the prototype no longer exists. And the internet has breathed new life into slot cars, so I expect the internet to likewise breath lots of life into the model railroading hobby in the years ahead.
2hm:
It's a specialty mag. They're always more than Time, Newsweek, and general interest stuff. MR isn't too bad. The Transformers Collectors' Club magazine (which I don't get) costs $50 a year and it's not nearly as full of vitamins and minerals (granted, the club rag comes with a free exclusive-usually ugly-colorscheme figure in the $7 size every year, which, again, does not motivate me to shell out that much cash).
As for quality of MR, I think it's been pretty good lately, but that's a discussion for another time and a full coffee pot.
Instead of worrying and arguing about this stuff, why don't we all come up with new and economical ways of doing things? Remember how E. L. Moore kept low price in front of the reader, and gleefully quoted the cheap costs of his scratchbuilt structures? That was a rare thing back then, actually; most people didn't mention cost - although I see it a lot in the 1930s magazines, and MR did have that "dollar car" series.
Complaining gets us nowhere. Figuring out how to do stuff cheaply does. Moore was only one man, and he wasn't rich, and he was no spring chicken when he started writing articles -- but he was clever, and thrifty. Look at how much influence he had. What if he had just decided that the hobby was outside his income limits, as well as outside his space limits (as it apparently was), and complained?
andrechapelon wrote: jfugate wrote: CNJ831 wrote: 4. Indeed, the average age of model railroaders is dramatically older today than at any time in the hobby's post war history. At the same time, the hobby seems to be catering increasingly to the middle-aged and up faction. Even WGH admits, unabashedly, that its target audience is men between 45 and 64...those most likely to have the extra cash. In the manufacturers' eyes, younger people (the hobby's only hope beyond 15-20 years from now) are obviously not even considered as potential hobbyists.CNJ831If this is completely true, then why was at least 50% of the booths and audience at the last WGH show I attended Thomas the Tank trains and youngsters under 12 clammoring for Thomas-related items? The show included a low-cost train ride on a train pulled by a Thomas-like loco -- and there was a constant line of parents and kids wanting a ride.Sure it's not the Lionel or proto-based train sets of the 1950s and 60s, but hey, it's trains and it seems to be quite popular at WGH train shows I've attended. If they're catering primarily to the 45-64 crowd, they've picked the wrong thing to emphasize! If these kids are not considered potential hobbyists by the WGH show powers-that-be, then why the huge emphasis on Thomas?As to high prices of hobby products, higher prices reflect higher demand for goods, otherwise companies that outprice the market will go out of business. If what you're suggesting is true, then at some point the prices will begin dropping because the demand will drop. It's all just economics -- hobby manufacturers seem to have discovered the sweet spot between price and demand. If you do a limited run of an item, you can charge more, keep your expenses to a known fixed amount, and ultimately make a better profit. If that's what it takes to keep the manufacturers happy and producing new stuff, then it works for me. Sure I'd love to see it cost less, but some product is better than no product because manufacturers can't make a good living in such a niche hobby. Joe,Remember the comic strip "Li'l Abner" by the late Al Capp? There was a character in that strip named Joe Btfsplk (sound of a raspberry) who walked around with a storm cloud over his head? The gloom and doomers are essentially that character in real life.For the sake of peace and tranquility, please repeat after me:"The hobby is doomed"."Prices are outrageous"."Model Railroader was a much better magazine back when <insert favorite mythcal golden age here>".Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side. I first heard the "hobby doomed" argument nearly 50 years ago. It's sure taking an almighty long time. I'll probably hear that same argument on my death-bed, but by that time, my grandkids will be making the counter-argument for me.Every time I run the numbers, the hobby doesn't seem outrageous compared to the past (and it doesn't matter which decade, either). BTW, I use median income figures rather than mean. It's a more accurate picture given that income distribution in this country is not the "normal" bell shaped curve so beloved of statisticians and other ne'er-do-wells.I got my first issue of MR in August, 1957. Quite frankly, I think the current MR is a much better magazine than it was back then, and if there ever was a golden age for the hobby, we're living in it. But that's just me. I will grant you MR is not perfect. No publication can be. However, as a general interest magazine covering the hobby, MR gets it right far more often than not. If someone could do it better, they would and MR would be an also-ran. Same thing could be said of Walthers as a manufacturer/supplier.However, for the sake of peace and tranquility, let's not post our contrarian apostasy anymore, OK?Yeah, like that's going to happen. Andre
jfugate wrote: CNJ831 wrote: 4. Indeed, the average age of model railroaders is dramatically older today than at any time in the hobby's post war history. At the same time, the hobby seems to be catering increasingly to the middle-aged and up faction. Even WGH admits, unabashedly, that its target audience is men between 45 and 64...those most likely to have the extra cash. In the manufacturers' eyes, younger people (the hobby's only hope beyond 15-20 years from now) are obviously not even considered as potential hobbyists.CNJ831If this is completely true, then why was at least 50% of the booths and audience at the last WGH show I attended Thomas the Tank trains and youngsters under 12 clammoring for Thomas-related items? The show included a low-cost train ride on a train pulled by a Thomas-like loco -- and there was a constant line of parents and kids wanting a ride.Sure it's not the Lionel or proto-based train sets of the 1950s and 60s, but hey, it's trains and it seems to be quite popular at WGH train shows I've attended. If they're catering primarily to the 45-64 crowd, they've picked the wrong thing to emphasize! If these kids are not considered potential hobbyists by the WGH show powers-that-be, then why the huge emphasis on Thomas?As to high prices of hobby products, higher prices reflect higher demand for goods, otherwise companies that outprice the market will go out of business. If what you're suggesting is true, then at some point the prices will begin dropping because the demand will drop. It's all just economics -- hobby manufacturers seem to have discovered the sweet spot between price and demand. If you do a limited run of an item, you can charge more, keep your expenses to a known fixed amount, and ultimately make a better profit. If that's what it takes to keep the manufacturers happy and producing new stuff, then it works for me. Sure I'd love to see it cost less, but some product is better than no product because manufacturers can't make a good living in such a niche hobby.
CNJ831 wrote: 4. Indeed, the average age of model railroaders is dramatically older today than at any time in the hobby's post war history. At the same time, the hobby seems to be catering increasingly to the middle-aged and up faction. Even WGH admits, unabashedly, that its target audience is men between 45 and 64...those most likely to have the extra cash. In the manufacturers' eyes, younger people (the hobby's only hope beyond 15-20 years from now) are obviously not even considered as potential hobbyists.CNJ831
4. Indeed, the average age of model railroaders is dramatically older today than at any time in the hobby's post war history. At the same time, the hobby seems to be catering increasingly to the middle-aged and up faction. Even WGH admits, unabashedly, that its target audience is men between 45 and 64...those most likely to have the extra cash. In the manufacturers' eyes, younger people (the hobby's only hope beyond 15-20 years from now) are obviously not even considered as potential hobbyists.
If this is completely true, then why was at least 50% of the booths and audience at the last WGH show I attended Thomas the Tank trains and youngsters under 12 clammoring for Thomas-related items? The show included a low-cost train ride on a train pulled by a Thomas-like loco -- and there was a constant line of parents and kids wanting a ride.
Sure it's not the Lionel or proto-based train sets of the 1950s and 60s, but hey, it's trains and it seems to be quite popular at WGH train shows I've attended. If they're catering primarily to the 45-64 crowd, they've picked the wrong thing to emphasize! If these kids are not considered potential hobbyists by the WGH show powers-that-be, then why the huge emphasis on Thomas?
As to high prices of hobby products, higher prices reflect higher demand for goods, otherwise companies that outprice the market will go out of business. If what you're suggesting is true, then at some point the prices will begin dropping because the demand will drop.
It's all just economics -- hobby manufacturers seem to have discovered the sweet spot between price and demand. If you do a limited run of an item, you can charge more, keep your expenses to a known fixed amount, and ultimately make a better profit.
If that's what it takes to keep the manufacturers happy and producing new stuff, then it works for me. Sure I'd love to see it cost less, but some product is better than no product because manufacturers can't make a good living in such a niche hobby.
Joe,
Remember the comic strip "Li'l Abner" by the late Al Capp? There was a character in that strip named Joe Btfsplk (sound of a raspberry) who walked around with a storm cloud over his head? The gloom and doomers are essentially that character in real life.
For the sake of peace and tranquility, please repeat after me:
"The hobby is doomed".
"Prices are outrageous".
"Model Railroader was a much better magazine back when <insert favorite mythcal golden age here>".
Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side.
I first heard the "hobby doomed" argument nearly 50 years ago. It's sure taking an almighty long time. I'll probably hear that same argument on my death-bed, but by that time, my grandkids will be making the counter-argument for me.
Every time I run the numbers, the hobby doesn't seem outrageous compared to the past (and it doesn't matter which decade, either). BTW, I use median income figures rather than mean. It's a more accurate picture given that income distribution in this country is not the "normal" bell shaped curve so beloved of statisticians and other ne'er-do-wells.
I got my first issue of MR in August, 1957. Quite frankly, I think the current MR is a much better magazine than it was back then, and if there ever was a golden age for the hobby, we're living in it. But that's just me. I will grant you MR is not perfect. No publication can be. However, as a general interest magazine covering the hobby, MR gets it right far more often than not. If someone could do it better, they would and MR would be an also-ran. Same thing could be said of Walthers as a manufacturer/supplier.
However, for the sake of peace and tranquility, let's not post our contrarian apostasy anymore, OK?
Yeah, like that's going to happen.
And don't forget the "Why in my day, we had to walk uphill both ways to the lhs, cut down trees and mine ore for our scratchbuilding needs. Modelers these days are wimps and all the serious modelers left long ago" mantra
jbinkley60 wrote: dj-l-ectric wrote: Have we all forgotten THE MOST EXPENSIVE part of the hobby........your space! Until the recent real estate crash (which is by no means over) the cost of space has FAR exceeded the cost of living AND wages. Yes engines cost over $100 and rolling stock over $25 but they have improved so much over the years you can't compare them.....but housing had more than trippled or quadrupled in many areas of the country in a short 5-7 year span. I don't know about you guys but my pay really hasn't gone up much in almost 10 years, forget upbout tripling to keep up with housing....and that is the case for most people who are not self employed or work for a union or the government. In fact a HUGE segment of the population is now making LESS then they were for the same jobs they had 5-7 years ago.If you are going to post an opinion, it is best to say so or show some facts. Here's some data from the BLS website: http://www.bls.gov/ Weekly and hourly earnings data from the Current Population SurveySeries Id: LEU0252881500Not Seasonally AdjustedSeries title: (unadj)- Median usual weekly earnings (second quartile), Employed full time, Wage and salary workersPercent/rates: N/AEarnings: Median usual weekly earnings - in current dollars (second quartile)Industry: All IndustriesOccupation: All OccupationsSex: Both SexesRace: All RacesEthnic origin: All OriginsAge: 16 years and overEducation: TotalClass of worker: Wage and salary workers, excluding incorporated self employedLabor force status: Employed full timeYearQtr1Qtr2Qtr3Qtr4Annual20005735695745855762001589592596606596200261160560361360820036206166186256202004634639632647638200565364364965965120066686596756826712007693690695 There has been no year where wages have gone down. Forget over 5 years.
dj-l-ectric wrote: Have we all forgotten THE MOST EXPENSIVE part of the hobby........your space! Until the recent real estate crash (which is by no means over) the cost of space has FAR exceeded the cost of living AND wages. Yes engines cost over $100 and rolling stock over $25 but they have improved so much over the years you can't compare them.....but housing had more than trippled or quadrupled in many areas of the country in a short 5-7 year span. I don't know about you guys but my pay really hasn't gone up much in almost 10 years, forget upbout tripling to keep up with housing....and that is the case for most people who are not self employed or work for a union or the government. In fact a HUGE segment of the population is now making LESS then they were for the same jobs they had 5-7 years ago.
Have we all forgotten THE MOST EXPENSIVE part of the hobby........your space! Until the recent real estate crash (which is by no means over) the cost of space has FAR exceeded the cost of living AND wages. Yes engines cost over $100 and rolling stock over $25 but they have improved so much over the years you can't compare them.....but housing had more than trippled or quadrupled in many areas of the country in a short 5-7 year span. I don't know about you guys but my pay really hasn't gone up much in almost 10 years, forget upbout tripling to keep up with housing....and that is the case for most people who are not self employed or work for a union or the government. In fact a HUGE segment of the population is now making LESS then they were for the same jobs they had 5-7 years ago.
If you are going to post an opinion, it is best to say so or show some facts. Here's some data from the BLS website: http://www.bls.gov/
Weekly and hourly earnings data from the Current Population Survey
Series Id: LEU0252881500Not Seasonally AdjustedSeries title: (unadj)- Median usual weekly earnings (second quartile), Employed full time, Wage and salary workersPercent/rates: N/AEarnings: Median usual weekly earnings - in current dollars (second quartile)Industry: All IndustriesOccupation: All OccupationsSex: Both SexesRace: All RacesEthnic origin: All OriginsAge: 16 years and overEducation: TotalClass of worker: Wage and salary workers, excluding incorporated self employedLabor force status: Employed full time
There has been no year where wages have gone down. Forget over 5 years.
Here is the same table in constant dollars generally considered a more useful measure of whether wages/salaries are going up, down, or unchanged.
Series Id: LEU0252881600Not Seasonally AdjustedSeries title: (unadj)- Constant (1982) dollar adjusted to CPI-U- Median usual weekly earnings, Employed full time, Wage and salary workersPercent/rates: N/AEarnings: Median usual weekly earnings - in constant (1982) dollarsIndustry: All IndustriesOccupation: All OccupationsSex: Both SexesRace: All RacesEthnic origin: All OriginsAge: 16 years and overEducation: TotalClass of worker: Wage and salary workers, excluding incorporated self employedLabor force status: Employed full time
andrechapelon wrote: Joe,Remember the comic strip "Li'l Abner" by the late Al Capp? There was a character in that strip named Joe Btfsplk (sound of a raspberry) who walked around with a storm cloud over his head? The gloom and doomers are essentially that character in real life.For the sake of peace and tranquility, please repeat after me:"The hobby is doomed"."Prices are outrageous"."Model Railroader was a much better magazine back when <insert favorite mythcal golden age here>".Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side.
Let me remind you also of a character from literature by the name of Pollyanna, whose afliction was only being able to see an unrealistically bright side to every situation, no matter how bad it really was.
In the real world such folks generally react from a position lacking in actual knowledge of a given situation, yet an obsessive need for things not to alter their outlook or position. This thread is a fine example. Numbers are thrown about willy-nilly without regard to what they represent, their actual meaning, or how comparable or representative they really are...just so long as they are upbeat. As long as the posted "facts and figures" suggest things are going well, they are accepted as 100% correct and accurate. However, let the numbers tend to indicate perhaps everything isn't perfect and they immediately become invalid, were taken out of context, anything, just so long as they can be disregarded. And then the poster of any possibly more reliable information is publicly insulted in hopes of discrediting him. Such a stance reflects a position more of posters' desperation of being unable to accept change, that things MUST remain status quo, rather than from intelligently evaluating what information is available and reaching an unfettered conclusion from them. Little wonder that 95% of all the really serious model railroaders who have ever passed through this forum, have soon left it.
andrechapelon wrote:Joe,Remember the comic strip "Li'l Abner" by the late Al Capp? There was a character in that strip named Joe Btfsplk (sound of a raspberry) who walked around with a storm cloud over his head? The gloom and doomers are essentially that character in real life.For the sake of peace and tranquility, please repeat after me:"The hobby is doomed"."Prices are outrageous"."Model Railroader was a much better magazine back when <insert favorite mythcal golden age here>".Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side. I first heard the "hobby doomed" argument nearly 50 years ago. It's sure taking an almighty long time. I'll probably hear that same argument on my death-bed, but by that time, my grandkids will be making the counter-argument for me.Every time I run the numbers, the hobby doesn't seem outrageous compared to the past (and it doesn't matter which decade, either). BTW, I use median income figures rather than mean. It's a more accurate picture given that income distribution in this country is not the "normal" bell shaped curve so beloved of statisticians and other ne'er-do-wells.I got my first issue of MR in August, 1957. Quite frankly, I think the current MR is a much better magazine than it was back then, and if there ever was a golden age for the hobby, we're living in it. But that's just me. I will grant you MR is not perfect. No publication can be. However, as a general interest magazine covering the hobby, MR gets it right far more often than not. If someone could do it better, they would and MR would be an also-ran. Same thing could be said of Walthers as a manufacturer/supplier.Andre
About 6 months ago I pulled the January 1961 MR and looked through it to refresh my memory as to what the content looked like.
The lead article was an interview with a loco scratchbuilder. He was saying the hobby was going to the dogs because of all the RTR equipment these days. Nobody was scratchbuilding any more.
Sound familiar? That was 47 years ago. In the same era there were editorials expressing concern there were no youngsters interested in trains because of all the new rage: slot cars.
Yep the hobby went to the dogs alright and nobody scratchbuilds any more. That's why precise prototype modeling is all the rage because we can do it with off-the-shelf products and not kitbash or scratchbuild anything. Yep. And all the youngsters went to slot cars in the 60s and nobody does trains any more. Ah well, imagine what the hobby could have been if it hadn't gone to the dogs 40-some years ago.
Photos of a hobby gone to the dogs (click to enlarge)
Construction photo of cabling detail on Liz Allen's SD45 model shown above(Click image to enlarge)
For more photos of a hobby gone to the dogs, click here or here.
(apologies for being off-topic, but this is educational)Just in case not everyone knows, the US Army Nike Hercules missiles were air defense weapons with nukes onboard. These were stationed all over the USA (along with their conventional cousins, the Nike Ajax) and several other locations protecting major cities from bomber raids. The system wasn't very accurate, but then with a nuke, you really don't have to be. A friend of mine was a radar operator in Battery C, Philadelphia, and a fellow member of my RR club was in a Battery in the Boston area (where one of the bases is now a condo complex with a nice underground garage).
For the best book on the subject that I've ever heard of, try "Rings of Supersonic Steel" at:http://www.holeintheheadpress.com/purchase.html
Also, there is a Nike Historical Society at:http://www.nikemissile.org/
BTW, TheK4Kid (and not taking anything away from your scary experience), you should hear my dad talk about the time he was TDY from the 4126th Strat. Aero. Wing (Beale AFB, CA) to Eielson AFB (Fairbanks, Alaska) during the Fall of 1962 (the Cuban Missile Crisis). That's DEFCON 2 at an Alaskan B-52 base...yikes. Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
I have to admit that I got away from the train show circuit, and ordered strictly from on-line dealers. We went to a swap meet last month in Ft Wayne and I was astounded by how much cheaper the prices were there, opposed to on-line shops.
If you go strictly by the Walthers Catalogue, and adds in MR and RMC, I can see where you would get a bit discouraged by the prices, but don't give up, check out a swap meet.
I'm not talking about the Great Train Show, for me and Amy to run to one in Indy, with admission, parking and a bite to eat, add gas and we have spent around 100$ just going. That pretty well shoots down buying anything. But the local meets, 2-3$ to get in, free parking, etc, and you can still grab up deals. Even if you only make one or two a year, you can get enough stuff to keep you busy for awhile.
I gotta admit, we sure have some deep thinkers on this forum. You guys would have a better chance of getting the economy on track than either pollitical party!
Keep up the good debates!
Dave Vollmer wrote: philnrunt wrote: ...On a more serious note, -dj-l-etric, have to say that was a pretty cheap shot you took at the military reference "killing people". Seems to me that was what made all of this stuff possible. Sure hope I interpreted it wrong, and if I did, excuse me.-dj-l-ectric I've been in the Air Force now for almost 12 years; through it I've earned my Master's and am almost done with my PhD (on their dime). And yes, I've had to go to war (with the Army, actually), and yes, I was part of the system which resulted in killing people and breaking their stuff. I'm proud of my service. I don't ask for thanks, but I do ask for a bit of understanding that sometimes killing bad people is what it takes to protect what we love, even if that thing we are protecting is another American in uniform. You have a right to disagree; you have a right to be self-righteous. Let me leave you with a quote:"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. "John Stuart MillEnglish economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873) Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of the cost of model railroading... Hi Dave, You'll ALWAYS have understanding from this ex-serviceman, who during one hot summer night In central south Korea on a US tactical missile base, was part of a team that actually ARMED the WEAPONS of ARMAGEDDON.We were never given the actual reason for this action, but for about 48 hours, a lot of young men paryed to God that those birds stayed on their launchers, because the other side had similar weapons aimed at us, and it was like a giant showdown, as to who had the fastest gun.If anyone reading this on here ever served with the US Army 44th Air Defense in Korea in 1973, you know what I'm talking about.Two Nike Hercules missiles, raised to the launching position, engines plugged in, warheads armed and programmed, sat vigilantly for 48 hours before returning to their bunkers,and warheads de-armed.If those birds had flown, the killing on the receiving end would have made Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like a minor skirmish.There were several other Nike sites spread throughout Korea who did the same thing during those 48 hours.To better understand what Dave Vollmer means, I highly recommend you watch Frank Capra's "WHY WE FIGHT". Freedom just isn't free.God Bless those who stand vigilance over it!They allow us to enjoy our trains in peace!Now back to regularly schduled train discussion. TheK4Kid
philnrunt wrote: ...On a more serious note, -dj-l-etric, have to say that was a pretty cheap shot you took at the military reference "killing people". Seems to me that was what made all of this stuff possible. Sure hope I interpreted it wrong, and if I did, excuse me.
...On a more serious note, -dj-l-etric, have to say that was a pretty cheap shot you took at the military reference "killing people". Seems to me that was what made all of this stuff possible. Sure hope I interpreted it wrong, and if I did, excuse me.
-dj-l-ectric
I've been in the Air Force now for almost 12 years; through it I've earned my Master's and am almost done with my PhD (on their dime). And yes, I've had to go to war (with the Army, actually), and yes, I was part of the system which resulted in killing people and breaking their stuff. I'm proud of my service. I don't ask for thanks, but I do ask for a bit of understanding that sometimes killing bad people is what it takes to protect what we love, even if that thing we are protecting is another American in uniform.
You have a right to disagree; you have a right to be self-righteous. Let me leave you with a quote:
Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of the cost of model railroading...
Hi Dave,
You'll ALWAYS have understanding from this ex-serviceman, who during one hot summer night In central south Korea on a US tactical missile base, was part of a team that actually ARMED the WEAPONS of ARMAGEDDON.We were never given the actual reason for this action, but for about 48 hours, a lot of young men paryed to God that those birds stayed on their launchers, because the other side had similar weapons aimed at us, and it was like a giant showdown, as to who had the fastest gun.If anyone reading this on here ever served with the US Army 44th Air Defense in Korea in 1973, you know what I'm talking about.
Two Nike Hercules missiles, raised to the launching position, engines plugged in, warheads armed and programmed, sat vigilantly for 48 hours before returning to their bunkers,and warheads de-armed.If those birds had flown, the killing on the receiving end would have made Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like a minor skirmish.
There were several other Nike sites spread throughout Korea who did the same thing during those 48 hours.To better understand what Dave Vollmer means, I highly recommend you watch Frank Capra's "WHY WE FIGHT". Freedom just isn't free.God Bless those who stand vigilance over it!They allow us to enjoy our trains in peace!
Now back to regularly schduled train discussion.
TheK4Kid
N scale has boomed in popular use in my area. There is not enough space to run in O or HO so N offers the best for some.
I occasionally use Ebay but as a sniper within the last 6 seconds only and pre-armed with MSRP minus shipping. USUALLY.... not always the hobby shop has the item.
There is money out there and certain items command bidding wars. My feeling is that the hobby isnt too expensive, but more of a problem for those who cannot stand to lose to another with more dollars on the bidding screen.
I notice that there isn't much reference to what scale is being discussed. Well, go to EBAY and check out the N scale stuff, one would think that being half the size of HO it would be cheaper, yes? Well guess what!? it's about TWICE as much, the prices for used locos and rolling stock are super high......why? well I'd venture a guess that it's because N scale is a much less popular scale than HO so there's a lot less of it lying around, and the mere fact that it's so small means it's harder to manufacture.
However, there are bidding wars on almost every lot and parts auction that comes up in N scale. People want that stuff and they will pay for it. So in answer to the question, No I don't think this hobby is too expensive, it just depends on what you want. If you want fancy sound locos with working lights and engineers that wave and rolling stock with individually applied rivets, be ready to break out the bucks, if you want to run trains and have fun, there's still a multitude of deals out there. Being a savvy smart shopper will make your hard earned greenbacks go much farther.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
One Track Mind wrote: All this stuff is always a matter or priorities and perspective...I'm not on this planet to judge anyone, but I have used this example many times:In almost the same breath, I had a customer explain to me that he could not afford today's locomotives such as the Athearn RTR that is in the 65 - 75.00 range.Then he complained about "having" to spend 80 bucks at Outback last night. For one meal.My wife and I don't spend 80.00 a week on groceries.Priorities and perspective.
All this stuff is always a matter or priorities and perspective...
I'm not on this planet to judge anyone, but I have used this example many times:
In almost the same breath, I had a customer explain to me that he could not afford today's locomotives such as the Athearn RTR that is in the 65 - 75.00 range.
Then he complained about "having" to spend 80 bucks at Outback last night. For one meal.
My wife and I don't spend 80.00 a week on groceries.
Priorities and perspective.
Hear Hear!
Another tidbit is workday coffee. That Starbucks is 3 bucks and one thermos from the home coffee pot works out to about 60 sents plus electricity to brew it yourself. But boy that Stanley Thermos is very expensive =)
dj-l-ectric wrote: jfugate wrote: The average annual income in 1967 was about $8,000 per year, and today the average annual income is $66,000 (I'm rounding to keep the math simple). That's an increase of 825%. Those figures are skewed as they are the average not the mean. Take off the top 20% (really rich people) and you see a VERY different picture.
jfugate wrote: The average annual income in 1967 was about $8,000 per year, and today the average annual income is $66,000 (I'm rounding to keep the math simple). That's an increase of 825%.
The average annual income in 1967 was about $8,000 per year, and today the average annual income is $66,000 (I'm rounding to keep the math simple). That's an increase of 825%.
Those figures are skewed as they are the average not the mean. Take off the top 20% (really rich people) and you see a VERY different picture.
Ok, now we are just manipulating numbers. If you are going to take the top 20% off then you need to take the bottom 20% off too. While you are at it, take the top 20% off when looking at the tax burden and who pays it. Then you'll get a real shock.
I saw someone else talking about exchange rates. I believe most would agree that the majority of goods we buy for model railroading are from China. The Chinese Yuan has been pegged to the US dollar for years, meaning that the Chinese people had no more buying power in the US, even as their economy strengethened. This cost American businesses and the stock market consumers and income. Only recently (since the middle of 2005) has the Chinese government allowed the Yuan to float more against the dollar. So don't blame exchange rates for any perceived increase in costs.
http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=USD&to=CNY&amt=1&t=5y
Now before someone else gets excited over the chart, that ugly looking drop is only 11%. We'd actually prefer it be more but the Chinese government is allowing the Yuan to float up slowly against the dollar to avoid high inflation on their part and a currency collapse on our part.
Now back to the trains.
David P. Morgan once wrote a story about "The Mohawk That Refused To Abdicate". I'm seriously considering writing a story entitled:
The Dead Horse That People Refuse To Stop Flogging
Just for the sake of peace and quiet, I will stipulate to the following even though I think each of the following statements is a crock. I will do so if (and only if) everyone else takes and adheres to the pledge to cease commenting on said allegations.
1. The hobby is dying. It's been dying since at least 1960, perhaps even earlier.
2. The hobby is way overpriced and the fat cat manufacturers are gouging us into abject poverty.
3. Model Railroader was a much better magazine way back when (way back when is unspecified, it's just some non-specific golden age in the past).
CNJ831 wrote:Try ordering from Walthers frequently and you are also likely to find that about half the items listed in their catalog...sometimes even in their monthly fliers...are unavailable, or with an unknown backorder date. I run into this constantly. Since well stocked local hobby shops have become a thing of the past, the odds that anything major you want must be ordered have dramatically increased...if the item is even available. Unless you deal daily with eBay, product choices are far more limited than most hobbyists think.
Try ordering from Walthers frequently and you are also likely to find that about half the items listed in their catalog...sometimes even in their monthly fliers...are unavailable, or with an unknown backorder date. I run into this constantly. Since well stocked local hobby shops have become a thing of the past, the odds that anything major you want must be ordered have dramatically increased...if the item is even available. Unless you deal daily with eBay, product choices are far more limited than most hobbyists think.
Well, break it down across several months and you will have your 500 dollars worth of track.
Dave Vollmer wrote: philnrunt wrote: ...On a more serious note, -dj-l-etric, have to say that was a pretty cheap shot you took at the military reference "killing people". Seems to me that was what made all of this stuff possible. Sure hope I interpreted it wrong, and if I did, excuse me.-dj-l-ectric I've been in the Air Force now for almost 12 years; through it I've earned my Master's and am almost done with my PhD (on their dime). And yes, I've had to go to war (with the Army, actually), and yes, I was part of the system which resulted in killing people and breaking their stuff. I'm proud of my service. I don't ask for thanks, but I do ask for a bit of understanding that sometimes killing bad people is what it takes to protect what we love, even if that thing we are protecting is another American in uniform. You have a right to disagree; you have a right to be self-righteous. Let me leave you with a quote:"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. "John Stuart MillEnglish economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873) Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of the cost of model railroading...
Well said.
CNJ831 wrote:4. Indeed, the average age of model railroaders is dramatically older today than at any time in the hobby's post war history. At the same time, the hobby seems to be catering increasingly to the middle-aged and up faction. Even WGH admits, unabashedly, that its target audience is men between 45 and 64...those most likely to have the extra cash. In the manufacturers' eyes, younger people (the hobby's only hope beyond 15-20 years from now) are obviously not even considered as potential hobbyists.CNJ831
BRAKIE wrote: marknewton wrote: Falls Valley RR wrote: Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years.No doubt you have, but in Brakie's world, if it isn't being done at one of the clubs he belongs to, it doesn't exist. And if those 110% modellers are interested in accuracy and quality, then they're not having fun!!! Mark.(Striving to be a 100%er...) Yeah,but,the world I am in is real and not a cyber world of fantasy.
marknewton wrote: Falls Valley RR wrote: Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years.No doubt you have, but in Brakie's world, if it isn't being done at one of the clubs he belongs to, it doesn't exist. And if those 110% modellers are interested in accuracy and quality, then they're not having fun!!! Mark.(Striving to be a 100%er...)
Falls Valley RR wrote: Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years.
Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years.
Yeah,but,the world I am in is real and not a cyber world of fantasy.
3. As to product availability, the claim of today's great diversity of available products is more myth than substance. Over a span of 3-5 years are we seeing a flood of new products? You bet! However, most of the more desirable items are available in only very limited numbers and over an even more limited time frame....the "buy now or loose out" business plan.CNJ831
3. As to product availability, the claim of today's great diversity of available products is more myth than substance. Over a span of 3-5 years are we seeing a flood of new products? You bet! However, most of the more desirable items are available in only very limited numbers and over an even more limited time frame....the "buy now or loose out" business plan.
Excellent point. Yes we do have a lot of new companies offering a lot of new products but looking at that 1982 catalog, a lot of those companies have disappeared or been absorbed. A lot of the products are no produced by anyone. Sure, most have been replaced by better stuff, but there were a number of very fine structure kits no longer available from anyone. The size of the Walthers catalog has remained fairly consistent over the years. The market can only support so much product.
mobilman44 wrote: Good Morning!Being in the hobby for quite some time (lionel since 1956 and HO since 1959) may I offer my perspective on "the high cost of HO - then and now".................(SNIP)What I am trying to say is that:- We need to focus on our increased earnings over time, as well as the cost of the product. - As with automobiles, there is a much better product out there today.- There is a much larger selection and ready availability of product.- The average age of model railroaders is surely significantly higher today than 40 years ago. I would say that a good portion (like me) are in their peak earning years or retired and have more money to spend - for more expensive stuff.
Good Morning!
Being in the hobby for quite some time (lionel since 1956 and HO since 1959) may I offer my perspective on "the high cost of HO - then and now".................
(SNIP)
What I am trying to say is that:
- We need to focus on our increased earnings over time, as well as the cost of the product.
- As with automobiles, there is a much better product out there today.
- There is a much larger selection and ready availability of product.
- The average age of model railroaders is surely significantly higher today than 40 years ago. I would say that a good portion (like me) are in their peak earning years or retired and have more money to spend - for more expensive stuff.
All true, but with decided caveats.
1. Very few of us here were fully grown adults, out in the workaday world, in the 1950's or 60's. Without that perspective, no fair comparison can be made addressing the original question. One must compare the average adult's financial situation and purchasing power for each era.
2. Why are so many so naive as to NOT EXPECT any given product to improve enormously with the passage of 40-50 years! Of course our models are better today. Do you honestly think 1970's Tyco-quality trains would sell to today's hobbyists?
Most items in the marketplace, after experiencing an initial spurt of high pricing reflecting a major advance in technology, soon drop back to the range of their former pricing. Research any product you'd like and you'll see this over and over. On the other hand, many of the major items in model railroading have been steadily escalating in price now at far beyond what inflation implies for about 15 years and this pace has been accelerating with time.
These points aren't doom and gloom...they simply reflect the reality of the situation,
When I started HO in 1959, I could barely afford an Athearn F and GP units, and a handful of their kits, and brass sectional track. I was in high school, so money was not all that available. I didn't pay much attention to the more expensive stuff as I couldn't afford it. Today's teenager is probably in the same boat, but I suspect better off than I was.
In the 1970s I had a house and wife and 4 young children and Athearn was still the best I could really afford. I did manage a couple of Rivarossi steam locos, and were they special. I do recall that the $2-$3 Athearn kits were some very nice affordable Christmas and birthday.
In the 1980s, I had upgraded the house but had the same wife and 4 teenagers. Money continued to be tight for model railroading, but I could afford some Ulrich/Silver Streak kits and some of the better Rivarossi and Atlas locos. But the mainstream was still Athearn and MDC!
In the 1990s, I "lost" the wife, and the kids went out on their own. So all of a sudden there was money for the railroad, as well as a large room. Atlas and Athearn and Rivarossi ruled, but the car kit selection was much more. But the money and time was spent on the layout.
In the 2000s, I have a new wife, and money is available for model railroading. Locos are now Stewart, Proto 2k, Atlas, Bachmann Spectrum, and BLI. Cars are mostly mid-level stuff, including Proto, Intermountain, Walthers, Accurail, and of course MDC and Athearn.
Hey, it ain't cheap - but it sure is fun!!!!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Falls Valley RR wrote:Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years.
Falls Valley RR wrote: Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years. Sadly I will never achieve that. However, I try to do good work with what is availible and if it means a little plastic without paint here and there? I think's is ok. Weathering will take care of the worst places if done after looking at similar photos.
Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years. Sadly I will never achieve that. However, I try to do good work with what is availible and if it means a little plastic without paint here and there? I think's is ok. Weathering will take care of the worst places if done after looking at similar photos.
I have also seen 110% models over the years..
However,those are not the type I am talking about.
I have seen topics where one guy claim the this or that is 2" to narrow..I cancelled my 10 units because yada,yada,yada..The engineers seat is to wide,to narrow,the door latch is a 1" to long and yada,yada etc yet,these jay hawkers never post a picture of their stuff but,will be among the first to trash a new model over minor detail problems.
Savvy mate?
BTW..I would be happy if I could model as good as I did 2 lustrums ago.
Sure am glad you guys put in that "average as opposed to mean" income information. I was feeling pretty poor when I read that most people made 66G!
I graduated HS in '73, and had a pretty decent job with-in a few years. Without quoting any statistics, it sure seems tighter now as far as income is concerned. Yesterday (Sun) gas was 2.79, but I left home without my wallet, so I didn't stop to top off the tank. Today, it's 3.15, and thats a sizeable jump no matter how you look at it. It just feels like the "takers" are asking more and more of the "givers".
The only bright ray of hope I've seen in the past 10 years was a commercial that told me "it will take 20 years to pay off 10,000$ credit card debt"- HARHARHAR! I ain't gonna live 20 more years, so I say slap it on the card and let 'em dig ya up to get the cash!!!!
On a more serious note, -dj-l-etric, have to say that was a pretty cheap shot you took at the military reference "killing people". Seems to me that was what made all of this stuff possible. Sure hope I interpreted it wrong, and if I did, excuse me.
Toodles!
Regarding one poster who claimed that home ownership free and clear is impossible there are those who choose to live in slightly lower cost of living areas and try to do it well to make it happen. We dont need 400,000 dollar homes. 50,000 done right is plenty. But not in the mega cities where everything is out of sight anyhow.
I hear stories of the humble rowhomes back in Baltimore turned into money land selling for 6 to 10 times what they sold brand new around the war years. Sometimes such expensive homes are torn down straight away to build bigger, more expensive and glitzier towers.
Such a pace cannot and will not be sustained.
Thank goodness Trains is cheap. Yes they are getting pricer and I can buy fewer of them each month because of higher unit costs but once in a while... indeed lightning can and does strike twice.
grayfox1119 wrote: I would like to know what is keeping anyone from being what they would like to be ( I am speaking about a career here ). I was born and brought up in a dirt poor neighborhood, cold water house, 3 family, no central heat, and dad made $19 a week back in 1940. I wanted something better, and so did my parents for their children. All they could afford was a junior college ( 2 year ) and that was with me working part time to help. I wanted to go into the field of electronics, as I knew that was a good area to make the $$ that we never had, and I always loved anything electrical as a boy. Later I entered the Army and received more training in electronics. This helped me get a good job upon exiting the Army. Later I went on to get a full degree, while I was married and had 4 children, attending school nights, 4 nights a week for 5 years. The rest is history. I later went on for a Master's degree in business at age 50, ya that's right ..50!! Why? Because I wanted to see if I could do it, and 4 years later after attending school at night, I made it with honors. I am NOT telling this little personal story to toot my horn, I could care less, I am not that way , but when I hear people knock those who make the "big bucks" in life, I see red. Who was holding "you" back? I had it as tough as anyone and did it, ask yourselves why you couldn't do it? People have come to this country with only the shirts on their backs and pennies in their pocket, and cannot even speak the language and yet they succeed.I think one needs to ask oneself ," what is REALLY holding me back"....the answer is YOU!
I would like to know what is keeping anyone from being what they would like to be ( I am speaking about a career here ). I was born and brought up in a dirt poor neighborhood, cold water house, 3 family, no central heat, and dad made $19 a week back in 1940. I wanted something better, and so did my parents for their children. All they could afford was a junior college ( 2 year ) and that was with me working part time to help. I wanted to go into the field of electronics, as I knew that was a good area to make the $$ that we never had, and I always loved anything electrical as a boy.
Later I entered the Army and received more training in electronics. This helped me get a good job upon exiting the Army. Later I went on to get a full degree, while I was married and had 4 children, attending school nights, 4 nights a week for 5 years. The rest is history. I later went on for a Master's degree in business at age 50, ya that's right ..50!! Why? Because I wanted to see if I could do it, and 4 years later after attending school at night, I made it with honors.
I am NOT telling this little personal story to toot my horn, I could care less, I am not that way , but when I hear people knock those who make the "big bucks" in life, I see red. Who was holding "you" back? I had it as tough as anyone and did it, ask yourselves why you couldn't do it? People have come to this country with only the shirts on their backs and pennies in their pocket, and cannot even speak the language and yet they succeed.
I think one needs to ask oneself ," what is REALLY holding me back"....the answer is YOU!
I don't think most people are held back by not being WILLING to do something to change their lives but rather restrained by not truly knowing WHAT they want with their lives. Yes I want to earn more money, but doing what? I remember taking the required "career education" class in high school and the guidence counselors, but they completely failed in really helping me understand what I wanted in life. Other then a computer, nice house, wife and a layout. Those are the THINGS you want in life, but how to get them is another story. I believe many americans work at a job they can TOLERATE. Not a job they really like or want, but one they can put up with and pays enough to put food on the table. For me it is the great friends and customers that make my job bearable. But do I feel like I was put on this earth to run a restaruant? no.
Not saying this to put you down or disagree with you Grayfox, I'm proud of you. And delighted that you found a true calling in life. Just wish I could say the same for everybody.
PS- I know heh, if only I could put as much passion into my career as I do my hobbies. :)
grayfox1119 wrote: Joe, that is an excellent point, and it certainly explaines "why" MR (as well as other mags) are thinner these days.As for cost of crude oil, yes, it certainly is near $100 a barrel, look for it to hit there next week or two. However, recycling is having a huge impact on keeping manufactured goods made with petroleum in check. We now have a separate trash container provided to us by our refuse desposal contractor in our neighborhood. It gets weighed before emptying, and it even has a microchip in the cover which reads into a hand-held device by the driver. We earn Recycle bucks ($$) that we can use at many local big name stores. ( Awaiting my LHS to join the list ) And all the refuse is used to build ( in part ), yup, you guessed it, my next HO box car, etc. You would be surprised at what is now reproduced using recycled materials.
Joe, that is an excellent point, and it certainly explaines "why" MR (as well as other mags) are thinner these days.
As for cost of crude oil, yes, it certainly is near $100 a barrel, look for it to hit there next week or two. However, recycling is having a huge impact on keeping manufactured goods made with petroleum in check. We now have a separate trash container provided to us by our refuse desposal contractor in our neighborhood. It gets weighed before emptying, and it even has a microchip in the cover which reads into a hand-held device by the driver. We earn Recycle bucks ($$) that we can use at many local big name stores. ( Awaiting my LHS to join the list ) And all the refuse is used to build ( in part ), yup, you guessed it, my next HO box car, etc. You would be surprised at what is now reproduced using recycled materials.
You can make plastics out of soybeans and many other things too. Not just crude oil. I used to think that too untill I watched somethings on agricultural scientists of the early 20th century.
TheK4Kid wrote: Hi fellas and gals! Well, I'll chime in with my two cents worth!I also build and fly RC airplanes, have for years, but trains are also a passion!I ALSO restore and fly vintage airplanes, I own and fly a 1946 Ercoupe.You think trains are expensive???Try FULL SCALE aviation. Present price of avgas 100 low lead here is $4.78 a gallon.Burns 4 1/2 to 5 gallons an hour, so thats about $25 an hour for fuel.Just put a new transponder in my plane--cost? -- $2,000.00 plus wiring, oh I guess about $2300 overall.New moving map GPS-Navcom radio, cost?=$1,200 New brakes and lines, let's see, about $800.00.3 new tires, oh about $145 apiece.New paint job will cost about $7,000Engine overhual a few years ago (4 cylinders) about $8,500Annual FAA safety inspection, at least $700Hangar rent at $185 a month split two ways so, about $92.50 a month Trains??? TRains are a CHEAP HOBBY!!! CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP!!! Have you seen the Nickle Plate 587? If so and have pics, send me a PM with the pics please!
TheK4Kid wrote: Hi fellas and gals! Well, I'll chime in with my two cents worth!I also build and fly RC airplanes, have for years, but trains are also a passion!I ALSO restore and fly vintage airplanes, I own and fly a 1946 Ercoupe.You think trains are expensive???Try FULL SCALE aviation. Present price of avgas 100 low lead here is $4.78 a gallon.Burns 4 1/2 to 5 gallons an hour, so thats about $25 an hour for fuel.Just put a new transponder in my plane--cost? -- $2,000.00 plus wiring, oh I guess about $2300 overall.New moving map GPS-Navcom radio, cost?=$1,200 New brakes and lines, let's see, about $800.00.3 new tires, oh about $145 apiece.New paint job will cost about $7,000Engine overhual a few years ago (4 cylinders) about $8,500Annual FAA safety inspection, at least $700Hangar rent at $185 a month split two ways so, about $92.50 a month Trains??? TRains are a CHEAP HOBBY!!! CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP!!!
Hi fellas and gals!
Well, I'll chime in with my two cents worth!I also build and fly RC airplanes, have for years, but trains are also a passion!
I ALSO restore and fly vintage airplanes, I own and fly a 1946 Ercoupe.You think trains are expensive???Try FULL SCALE aviation. Present price of avgas 100 low lead here is $4.78 a gallon.Burns 4 1/2 to 5 gallons an hour, so thats about $25 an hour for fuel.Just put a new transponder in my plane--cost? -- $2,000.00 plus wiring, oh I guess about $2300 overall.New moving map GPS-Navcom radio, cost?=$1,200 New brakes and lines, let's see, about $800.00.3 new tires, oh about $145 apiece.New paint job will cost about $7,000
Engine overhual a few years ago (4 cylinders) about $8,500Annual FAA safety inspection, at least $700Hangar rent at $185 a month split two ways so, about $92.50 a month
Trains??? TRains are a CHEAP HOBBY!!! CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP!!!
- Luke
Modeling the Southern Pacific in the 1960's-1980's
Falls Valley RR wrote: Something else besides the Internet. Something new gets released or announced and gets put under a bright light and intense scrutiny by all parties for better or worse.A Manufacter who announced a choo choo for example has to be sweating bullets as various forums tear apart the new engine LONG before it actually gets produced and hits the hobby shop.Success or Failure of a choo choo model or any model sometimes rest on how it performed via video or other considerations.Continued survival of the model being produced will depend on people's feedback. You can almost see if a item is goot, or junk with issues before you spend a penny with a little searching.Finally but not least, finding that choo choo at a price you are willing to pay instead of FULL MSRP or even your local hobby shop's price can save you money... particularly the part about sales taxes. Not having to pay taxes sometimes makes the sale.Dont worry about me, I keep two hobby shops busy and lots of internet stuff all year. There is enough to go around.The other side of the coin, the Internet can communicate one buyer's desire for a very specific choo choo and reach out to the USA or even the world and find that choo choo and have it shipped.That did not exist 15 years ago.
Something else besides the Internet. Something new gets released or announced and gets put under a bright light and intense scrutiny by all parties for better or worse.
A Manufacter who announced a choo choo for example has to be sweating bullets as various forums tear apart the new engine LONG before it actually gets produced and hits the hobby shop.
Success or Failure of a choo choo model or any model sometimes rest on how it performed via video or other considerations.
Continued survival of the model being produced will depend on people's feedback. You can almost see if a item is goot, or junk with issues before you spend a penny with a little searching.
Finally but not least, finding that choo choo at a price you are willing to pay instead of FULL MSRP or even your local hobby shop's price can save you money... particularly the part about sales taxes. Not having to pay taxes sometimes makes the sale.
Dont worry about me, I keep two hobby shops busy and lots of internet stuff all year. There is enough to go around.
The other side of the coin, the Internet can communicate one buyer's desire for a very specific choo choo and reach out to the USA or even the world and find that choo choo and have it shipped.
That did not exist 15 years ago.
Not to worry..From what I seen very little heed to given to forum chatter about new products after all most of the guys I know still depend on the MR reviews.I purchases my locomotives from Athearn and Atlas and cars from Athearn,Atlas,Accurail and Walthers..I do have some IM and Branch line cars and a handful of KD cars..
I also let the locomotive gurus and forum "super modelers" rattle on and all the while I can't help but, wonder if they walk the walk they talk..Sadly most "super modelers" never post a picture of their 110% correct locomotives and cars so we will never know.
grayfox1119 wrote: I am NOT telling this little personal story to toot my horn, I could care less, I am not that way , but when I hear people knock those who make the "big bucks" in life, I see red. Who was holding "you" back? I had it as tough as anyone and did it, ask yourselves why you couldn't do it? People have come to this country with only the shirts on their backs and pennies in their pocket, and cannot even speak the language and yet they succeed.I think one needs to ask oneself ," what is REALLY holding me back"....the answer is YOU!
Bully for you...and if after doing all that through no fault of your own as an industry your wages suddenly fell or failed to increase to cover the inflations cost......if we all became electricians you would be making about $12 bucks an hour because there would be an over abundance of electricians so consider yourself lucky we all didn't take your same path, consider yourself lucky not everyone is willing to kill people and risk their own life in the service to get their education and not all of us happen to be in careers with unions (I don't know if you are in one or not but most electricians are) which keep the wages (and their assiciated product/service costs) artificially high and not all of us have the income at today's college costs to go back and get a degree.
I have a friend who is a computer/internet programmer...borderline genius with about a 190 IQ, went to college, did a lot of self teaching rose through the ranks, had a nice 6 figure income as most programmers have had through the 90's and early 2000's but the fact is most programmers now make between $40,000 to $80,000....he is doing more advanced work which needed more advanced education and he is making almost 1/2 what he made the past decade. He is not the only one, I can tell you numerous friends that are or were in fields that simply don't pay anymore or haven't increased in the last 10 years....retail, food & beverage managers, Dj's, graphic designers, sign making, computer programming, web design, car sales, pilots (yes believe it or not the average guy you trust your life to in a plane is now making only around $65,000 per year when 10 years ago it was over $100,000)...this is just to name a few of the industries where wages are still at or below levels from 10 years ago.
I make over $50,000 a year myself and I am single with no dependents, but between fighting the IRS, the utility companies, the gas station, the grocery store and the car dealer I have precious little left over for rent (you can forget about owning at todays prices).
Anyway, I have seemed to have gotten off topic and apoligize for that......Just making the point that this hobby that is my only salvation in life is not out of line cost wise by comparison to the neccessities of life, even if at this point it is only the hobby of collecting because there is nothing left over for the space to build and operate it....and the catch 22 is if I worked more to make more money then I wouldn't have the time to enjoy it anyway!
I thought I would do a quick bit of research from when I entered the hobby (1967) to today.
One thing everybody forgets..Cost of living was cheaper back then when compared to today..That $8,000 equals about $155.00 a week before taxes..That wasn't a bad pay day back then seeing a gallion of milk was 29 cents and a gallon of gas was 32 cents.
We had it good back then..A brass diesel would cost between $21.95-34.95..Depending on type a steamer would run between $34.95 and 49.95..
If you want to realize how bad it has gotten the bottom 80% of Americans are spending over 500% of their average annual household income for a house now as opposed to only 390% in 1967 (and keep in mind this is based on HOUSEHOLD income where today you have two and sometimes more wage earners where in 1967 there was only 1- so to really put it in perspective we are now paying 1000% of of our individual wages today as compared to 390% in 1967. Source US Census http://goofyblog.net/historic-household-income-vs-home-prices/
If you also look household income for the bottom 80% of Americans has only gone up a bit over 67%. This means in reality the $70 brass engine of 1967 should be less than the Athearn Ready To Rolll Today.
This is not to incrimenate the hobby as the products are far superior in most cases today then in 1967 or even since 1997 and to some extent can justify the higher prices. The point is no matter how cheap or expensive the hobby is we won't be able to afford to enjoy it anywhere because it will be too expensive for the SPACE and this hobby does require space, even if it is to hold display cases on the wall!
i will admit that motive power is becoming very expensive. i wish athearn offered their RTRs without all that extra circuitry to make them DCC-ready. so us cheap DC modellers could get them for less.
but there will always be great bargains. Lombard Hobby never fails me there. $47.50 for a brand new athearn genesis SD70. you cant beat THAT!
expensive but worthwile. i mean you also have to factor in the newer detailing on these models. compare the new athearn RTR SD45s to their older bluebox ones. the RTRs look simply amazing!
Your friendly neighborhood CNW fan.
Our wages are a darn sight less than the Median. Aside from taxes, necessary bills and trains/entertainment we are happy to have a savings account.
The Government needs to count the people by how much they have saved up instead of looking at those IRS tax forms. They wont, because it is easier to lobby Congress to stack the spending higher and leave the worrisome problem known as the budget for the next Congress.
My area says that they enjoy a median income of 35,000 dollars per household. I like them to go to the local grocery store and see the forest of WIC assistance cards being swiped. They need to go down to the Walmart super center where all the REAL money is being spent usually in another county.
There is a small number of people who enjoy trains compared to the overall population. Judging from the large number of lake fishing and hunting shops in the area there are other hobbies competing for the dollar.
Of course the "baby boom" situation many of us grew up with - Dad going to work, Mom being a fulltime homemaker - was something of a historical oddity. Before that time women often worked, although it was often done in the home so may have been picked up as official employment, like taking in wash or doing sewing.
It is pretty amazing how things have changed regarding housing, I remember Linn Westcott writing an article c. 1972 about visiting a "dream layout" of a wealthy guy who lived in a palatial "$100,000 house" (mansion). Last year the run-of-the-mill ranch house we bought cost over $200,000!!
Back to the original post...keep in mind that 1982 was the height of the "Reagan Recession" that came before the boom years of the mid-eighties. I remember it well, when I graduated from university in June 1982 unemployment was over 10% and prices were falling because no one had money to buy things. If the gov't hadn't juggled the books a little, I suspect the country would have met the criteria for that being a depression rather than a bad recession.
IRONROOSTER wrote: jfugate wrote: I thought I would do a quick bit of research from when I entered the hobby (1967) to today.The average annual income in 1967 was about $8,000 per year, and today the average annual income is $66,000 (I'm rounding to keep the math simple). That's an increase of 825%.... The median household income is $48,201 vice the mean of $66,570. (from http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032007/hhinc/new04_001.htm) Median income is a better measure than mean, because it better reflects the average household without the distortion caused by very high income households.
jfugate wrote: I thought I would do a quick bit of research from when I entered the hobby (1967) to today.The average annual income in 1967 was about $8,000 per year, and today the average annual income is $66,000 (I'm rounding to keep the math simple). That's an increase of 825%....
The median household income is $48,201 vice the mean of $66,570. (from http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032007/hhinc/new04_001.htm)
Median income is a better measure than mean, because it better reflects the average household without the distortion caused by very high income households.
Absolutely correct. The idea that $66k is representative of typical housholds across the United States today is utterly absurd. Outside the major cities, annual wages of $30,000 and even less are still very common today and more and more formerly lower middle class families are now verging on the cutoff that supposedly defines the proverty line!
Indeed, the Fat Cats are doing just great, as well as skewing the figures, but the average guy has been slowly loosing ground in purchasing power for many years. Back in 1967 the husband worked to support the family and the wife still typically stayed at home, taking care of the house and kids. Today, in most cases, both adults have to work just to make ends meet if they are homeowners and guys around my way often take on an additional part-time side job to obtain any meaningful disposable income. If that's considered an improvement in our economic situation, I'd hate to see what's the flipside.
jfugate wrote:I thought I would do a quick bit of research from when I entered the hobby (1967) to today.The average annual income in 1967 was about $8,000 per year, and today the average annual income is $66,000 (I'm rounding to keep the math simple). That's an increase of 825%....
I have one that has gone down:
P1000 Newsprint car, CN. First one was $24.99, the second was $18.95 (all in CDN $s). And all the rest of the newsprint cars I have got since have been at the $18.95 price (but they are BC Rail )
Unless you make what I concider a high wage, or you income isn't rediculous....YES! Model railroading can be quite friggin expensive.
"Being misunderstood is the fate of all true geniuses"
EXPERIMENTATION TO BRING INNOVATION
http://community.webshots.com/album/288541251nntnEK?start=588
Well what you've said is true, but the housing market is a completely different story. Its not good for anyone right now, and even though the price of lumber and building materials is really high, you're right.
-beegle55
Last week I watch the US Dollar sag against most other currencies on Wall Street.
Over the years I watched space dwindle. The home I live in is pretty good for two people, but when you consider the cost to Add on or build a new building on our land it's alot cheaper than trying to buy into a bigger place.
Even though I can't really provide a good standing in this debate because I wasn't around back when the price tag was smaller on everything, I can give my $.02. I cant really complain with the prices nowadays, compared to the cost of other hobbies and things of similar nature. The fact is, there isn't much we can do to change things price wise. And inflation goes up about 3% each year on the American dollar, but the salaries and everything money related adjusts to the inflation rate, so when the price seems to go up, its really just doing so to adjust with inflation and inflation also causes salaries to be higher... Just my words in this debate.
I recall my father seeing a 2-8-0 brass loco on the back of my first MR for $70, and he told me the hobby was too expensive. I told him those locos were special-built brass imports (at least I learned that much from my first MR) and not the price of a typical loco. A typical Athearn diesel, I told him, was $15. He was much relieved to hear that!
So what should that brassie cost today if the price kept pace with average income growth? How about $577? And that Athearn Blue Box loco? $124.
Athearn's new SD40T-2 is listed at $100, and it's a much better loco than that 1967 Blue Box would have been -- so that's an improvement! What's a good Blue Box-type loco go for these days?
The $577 for the brass 2-8-0 is probably a bit low these days, thanks to collectors -- but the details put on most brass locos today makes that 1967 brass import look crude -- and today's brass steamers run a fair sight better than those in 1967 did.
The other comparison is minimum wage. In 1967 it was $1.40 per hour. Today it is $5.85. That's an increase of 418%, which means the low end wage earner has lost ground. Those looking to get into the hobby (teens and young adults on minimum wage) will have a tougher time than they had in 1967, it seems. Or will they?
You can still get IHC, Bachmann, and Model Power diesels, brand new, for $25. In terms of minimum wage 1967 dollars, thats a loco for $6. What a deal! Sure, it's not a great loco, but then these entry locos never have been known for their quality.
So I don't think all is lost. It's kind of a mixed bag, some better, some a little worse, but in many cases we're getting an excellent value considering income growth since 1967!
The really great thing about this hobby is that there are so many directions to go you can enjoy some segment of it no matter what income level you are at...reading the magazines are free if you local library carries them (and many do), if you have cable the DIY network has "Workin on the Railroad" whcih is a weekly teaching and information show and for $15 -$35 per month will get you membership into most railroad clubs where you can participate in all phases of the hobby and most of them have a selection motive power and rolling stock for members to run with.....it really is the World's Greatest Hobby at any price.
Contrary to some thinking out there- the molds do NOT last forever! They wear and sometimes crack and break. Most new tools are not made of steel like the old Athearn or Details West molds.
.......and yes, It is very expensive to have a new mold done, let alone CORRECTLY. You cannot just find a standard machinist and give him a blueprint and say "Here, go make this". You need people who understand how this part or that part needs to be done so that the mold fills (and cools) correctly, where to put the gates and what type of matierial will run in it. People who tool for the model railroad industry are especially hard to come by and they charge accordingly- in the U.S., China, or anywhere else.
Also, most of the good manufacturers do not use "regrind" plastic. That has its own set of pitfalls that do not work out well.
Speaking from experience, Keith Turley/ Details West
I also think that the quality of items these days is greater then they were 20 years ago when I started. I look at the Atlas Loco's now and then and think wow what a difference.
Exactly my thinking. The items in my list were chosen because to the best of my knowledge, they are the same product sold 25 years ago. I think what has changed over the years is what we modelers expect for our dollar. What was considered mid range, such as a basic Atlas or Athearn BB loco, is now looked at as lower end. I think we know expect our locos to either be DCC equipped or at least DCC ready so we can drop in a plug and play decoder. When I put that list together I purposely looked for items that are essentially the same as they were 25 years ago.
One huge factor with regard to advertising in a 1990 issue of MR versus today is the internet.
The lion's share of businesses in the hobby are mom-and-pop size, and they don't have a huge advertising budget -- but in 1990 there was no internet, so either you advertise in MR to reach hobbyists or they just don't know you exist.
With the internet now a good 15 years old, those mom-and-pops can reach much of their audience with a good search-engine-friendly web site. Any ads in MR can be much smaller, and they can even afford to skip months.
Today's internet means a shoe-string budget hobby business can reach many hobbyists without being in MR -- so naturally, I would expect today's MR to be skinner and have less ads.
In order to have any true meaning, your comparisons must also indicate what your weekly salary was both then and now.
In 1940, you could buy a Studebaker Champion for $600 -- but that was probably 4 or 5 years' salary for most people back then. And car dealerships wanted cash, not plastic.
luvadj wrote: I think that plastic production kits should go down as manufacturing costs come down. As far as new technology (CNC, Laser, etc) coming into play in producing new items, those items should reflect an initially high cost, which should drop in retail price as new technology or better manufacturing methods come into play.....Theroretically speaking that is....
I think that plastic production kits should go down as manufacturing costs come down. As far as new technology (CNC, Laser, etc) coming into play in producing new items, those items should reflect an initially high cost, which should drop in retail price as new technology or better manufacturing methods come into play.....
Theroretically speaking that is....
Not speaking theoretically at all - plastic is an oil-based product. Have you checked the trend in crude oil prices lately? Any savings in amortized production fixtures are going to be swallowed up in material cost - and you can't sell at a price below your cost of production unless you put up a big GOING OUT OF BUSINESS sign and hire a bankruptcy lawyer.
Also, new products will demand new molds and new machines to replace old ones that wear out. Want to bet that those expenses will come down? Any high roller in Sin City would cover you.
The loose link in your reasoning is that model railroad production is small-batch, limited production. Those economies only come into play when you can churn out 50,000 or more like items in a single run. I would be hard pressed to name anything in model railroading other than Athearn BB products that even begins to approach that level - and Athearn did it over a span of decades, not weeks.
I would think when a new kit comes on the market, the initial price might be on the high side since the manufacturers have to recoup their development costs but once that is done, the molds should last indefinitely. On the other hand, they can't ask too high an initial cost since they have to compete with what is already on the market. I'm guessing they expect to recover the development costs over time.
The two items that jumped out at me were the Campbell's Grain Elevator which has more than tripled in price but even that is probably not much if any more than cost of living as a whole. Instant Horizon's backdrops have virtually not changed at all in price in 25 years. Apparently once they created the printing plates, producing the backdrops must be fairly inexpensive so they could hold costs down over the years and now offer these items at a considerable discount from 25 years ago.
Bob Berger, C.O.O. N-ovation & Northwestern R.R. My patio layout....SEE IT HERE
There's no place like ~/ ;)
That is a good observation. I found some old 1990 MRR mags, and they were considerbly larger, but the cost of mailing has gone up so much since 1990, that cuts had to made somewhere to keep the price withing the range that buyers will buy.
I agree with you on locomotives, you really should not try to compare those items today, otherwise it's like trying to compare apples to oranges. Look at the price of metals today compared to 20 or 30 years ago or more. Copper and brass are through the roof per pound, I know because I invest in both of them.
I think that the manufacturers are doing the best they can to keep the prices in the range of the majority of the buying public.
With that said, there will be some young people and some fixed income older folks, ( and I am an older folk) and some who just want everything at $1, that will never understand economics, so it would be foolhearty for me to even try to explain cost analysis and marketing 101.
In summary, I think manufacturers are doing a descent job of maintaining price stability within this hobby.