V-Scale acceptability?

[philnrunt]

  Jeff-  I ALMOST went back and read the original post, glad you did! I pretty much agree with what you say, relying on others to validate your happiness, interests, or anything more than your parking tickets (that should show you how old I am!) is useless, if you like it, LIKE IT!

   And the future of computers in MRRing, as in everything else on the planet, is sure to grow. Your concept of running on another person's layout is one worth exploring. And to sit in interactively (is that a word?) on a night of running would be a blast. "Hey Mr. Koester, mind if me and 40,000 of my closest friends come over tonight?"

   Take care. 

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

Hey Phil, It is certainly a form of playing with trains.  But the original poster wants to call it model railroading (which he can if he wants to), and I just don't see that.  It's a different hobby, that also happens to involve trains.  To take it into a totally different realm (in which my wife has participated from time to time), quilting and knitting are both fabrics arts (or crafts, depending on your point of view), but that does not make quilting knitting, or vice versa.  Neither is superior, or inferior, they just are not the same thing.

Now I shall tread very lightly, because the rest of this involves reading WAY between the lines, and often that can be a serious mistake in this medium.  I got the feeling from the original posters post that he feels that some people somehow consider his hobby to be 'below' model railroading.  To combat this feeling, he'd like to have virtual railroading be model railroading, in a way seeking validation for his hobby.  At some level, it feels like he is letting the values others place on his hobby influence the value HE places on his hobby.  He needs to realize that his hobby doesn't need to make me happy, or his neighbor happy, or anyone but himself happy, in order to be the best hobby in the world, for him.  Taking this thought farther, if model railroaders were too concerned about what 'other people' thought about their hobby (hermits in the basement, geeky nerds) there wouldn't be a hobby.

So, my point is this.  Virtual Railroaders should be proud of their hobby, and should have no need to be validated by calling it madel railroading.  It looks to me to be a great hobby that develops a great set of skills from research to geography to computer, and probably a lot more I don't even know.  And Model Railroaders should have no reason to look down upon, or otherwise diminish a hobby that celebrates trains in a different way.

One final note on the future....I think that the two different hobbies may grow closer in the future, as we operate our model trains from virtual cabs using miniture cameras, etc.  I think there will also come a time when we can operate trains on other layouts remotely through the internet.  And I expect virtual operating sessions with multiple participants, both on virtualized renderings of physical layouts, imaginary layouts, and the real word.  So the lines beween the hobbies may get very blurry.  But in my mind, model railroading still needs a model, and to me the model is physical.  It could be that the next generation will disagree with that, obviously some already do, but that's the definition that works for me, for now.

 

[philnrunt]

      marknewton- G'day! I have had experience with two RR simulators, both owned by Norfolk Southern. They didn't have (to my knowledge) any simulators of steam, only diesel and only new computer controlled diesels. I would agree that a simulator of a steamer would be a pale comparison, as running a real steamer is such a sensory experience. But when I  was on a month old ES44AC a few weeks ago, it absolutely struck me that the engineer's job was quite similiar to a 'puter train game. Comfortable seat, quiet, and a nice computer console to make the engine go. So we might be in more agreement in this area than I previously thought.

  But I still stand by the "playing with trains" statement, no matter how realistic the toys are. I don't say this in a bad way, either, just trying to cut through all of the smoke and mirrors and call it what it is.

    Jeff-I never stated it was MODEL railroading, I merely compared it to "playing with trains" and in that way, it is absolutely related to the hobby of railroading. Railfanning, modeling a prototype RR, scratch building live steamers, garden railroads based on Disney characters, and running v-scale trains over Bozeman Pass are ALL related, and that was the point I was shooting at. I agree with the general concensus of the respondants that whatever works for each person is fine and dandy. It was the dismissive attitudes, not the valid opinions, that I took issue with.

   And I absolutely agree with those that said MSTS could become alot like work, very quickly. In the 4-5 years I've had the game, I made the complete Marias Pass run exactly once. And I still can't figure out how to make the helper respond to the lead engines commands!

     It's still the exchange of differing ideas that make this a great site. It's good to know that someone all the way over in Australia can take issue with this simple ol' Hoosier boy!

   Take care, all!

    

  

[larak]

I dabble too, and find it enjoyable, but as others have said, it doesn't involve touch or "real" construction. If it's the only alternative, then virtual modeling is a wonderful thing but it is still only a two dimensional approximation.

I prefer my models to require lots of different levels of creativity beyond the artistic and to give tactile pleasure as well as visual and aural. And there is a bit of smell involved to. (Not just the occasional burning component but warm ones as well.) A layout room also has a certain whole body ambience that a computer screen cannot begin to approximate.

Karl

[Texas Zepher]

I was really excited to get MS Train Simulator for Christmas a few years ago.  I sat down and played with gusto.  I created my own paint scheme, created some of my own scenery.  I was rapidly bored out of my skull.  In operation in some reguards it is too real namely too much like real work.  There is a reason they pay people in real life to do this sort of thing.  There is a reason they have the alarm that goes off to wake up the engineer - it is boring, tedious work.

It probably doesn't help that I am a computer professional and 40-50 hours a week on the job with computers doesn't exactly spur my passion for yet more boring computer work.

Finally, it reminds me too much of all the "photographs" that are starting to show up which aren't photographs at all but digitally painted pictures.  Smoke and mirrors.  Anyone can cut a moon out of a real photograph and plaster it into the "sky" of their model trains.  It does not make a good photograph.  In the old days we called it dark room tricks.

So as long as one doesn't mind all the work and as long as no one ever forgets it is all virtual stuff for fun, I say more  power to those people.  I just won't be one of them.   Now maybe when it gets to the point where there I am sitting in a real cab with all the tilt and shift stuff to simulate the feeling of inerta and g-forces and I am looking out the cab windows into simulated stuff - then I might get more interested.  But once again, why not just go down and get a job at the real railroad.  They are always needing train crews.

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

   So those of you that think poorly of V scale, and point out it's only a pale shadow of the real thing, I take it that you have a 1:1 scale railroad to run. You are playing with toy trains, just like everyone else in this hobby. Using a different medium to do it is just a matter of degrees.

  As for realism, if simulators are good enough to train fighter pilots, firemen, police officers and railroad engineers, there has to be something worthwhile to them.

   And the v-scale pics are pretty neat!

   

I never said I thought poorly of V scale, I just don't think it's model railroading.  It is virtual railroading, in my opinion a hobby of its own. 

 

[NevinW]

I think that there is enough overlap between V scale and other parts of model railroading that I would not have a problem considering it to be a subset of the hobby. Especially those that construct their own engines and equipment. - Nevin

[andrechapelon]

The thing I immediately noticed with v-scale railroading using Microsoft Train Simulator is how completely boring real railroading is. Miles and miles of just running along staring at the passing scenery.

Model railroading feels quite different. Because things are compressed, you get just enough of the "boring running" between towns to be a small snack, then the delightful feast continues as you reach the next town, yard, grade summit, etc. As a result, model railroad operation is a lot more intense and engaging.

Model railroading is like a Tom Cruise movie, with lots of action. V-scale railroading is like World War I trench warfare -- mostly boring times, with a few moments of very interesting action.

Because of the long boring part, I quickly lost interest in v-scale railroading. And I would hardly call it model railroading, since you rarely "model" anything -- you mostly just assemble some premade digital rolling stock and locos into a train, drop them into a piece of virtual scenery that's representative of a real piece of railroad somewhere, and then roll off the miles -- watching all the semi-believable digital scenery roll by. Not exactly exciting, which is why I guess Microsoft dropped the train simulator. Far less exciting than flying virtual air planes, especially to today's youngsters. 

Auran's "Trainz" is much more model railroad based than is MSTS. I found "Trainz" more interesting than MSTS, but not enough to become an afficionado. 

Model anything that involves actual scale hardware that duplicates live action is generally more interesting than real life or its virtual representation (assuming "full" realism). Dogfighting over Germany during WWII can be interesting, especially if your life isn't actually on the line. Nonetheless, if you're in a dogfight with an Me-109 or FW-190 over central Germany, it's most likely because you're escorting bombers to target. That involves hours of really boring flying until you get to the good stuff. The "good stuff" is then followed by hours of really boring flying unless you got shot down or your plane is so badly damaged that it's an adventure just keeping it in the air. A fully realistic flight simulator would require you to undertake your mission from the early morning briefing until return to base. I don't think you'd sell many copies of a game like that. 

Several months ago, I was privileged to partake in an operating session on a rather large model railroad where I and another guy were assigned a mine turn. Getting from the originating point to the mine involved running over about 2 /12 scale miles of track. That was boring. It wasn't until we got to the mine that things got exciting, fast.  Both of us were complete newbies to operations. The first thing we discovered was that our train was about 2 cars too long to clear at the siding. I remember that the first words out of my fellow crew member's mouth were "We're screwed". We weren't, but it seemed like it at the time. In order to give ourselves room to work, we had to find a place to stash some of the empty hoppers so we could work and be able to clear any trains that would pass through, so we stashed about half our cars on a mine branch since we had to exchange about that many with the mine on the branch (we were working two mines off the main as well).  I won't go into all the detail, but our task was to exchange 25 empty hoppers for 25 loads at 3 different mines as well as drop off a boxcar of supplies each at 2 mines. It took us a couple of real hours to accomplish that task. Naturally, the return trip was a snooze even though we had to meet a couple of opposing trains.

Frank Ellison was big on the "drama" of railroading. The truth is, most of it, like life in general, is pretty much of a snooze. That's why the boring parts (which involves most of it) are ignored in play or movie. At least they're supposed to be.

Andre

[tomikawaTT]

So far, all of us have been concentrating on the "operating" part of v-railroading.  How about the "railroad building" part.

When it comes to building my empire, there is a gulf wider than the Grand Canyon between bending real steel (studs, which I use for all my benchwork and subgrade supports,) cutting real plywood and foam sheet stock, driving real screws, spreading real latex caulk and putting down real flex track to connect my hand-laid turnouts - and the equivalent activity on a v-railroad.  I have to physically go into a dedicated space, use real tools and work with actual building materials and manufactured trackwork.  It can't be done while camped on my keister in front of a monitor with a mouse.

I readily admit that, when it comes to construction, I am a touchy-feely kind of person.  I spent much of my adult life with a wrench in one hand, and have no objection to getting my hands dirty.

I also admit that there are others who want to spend their hobby time wearing white gloves, and heaven forfend that they might get ground goop on their cummerbunds!  Likewise, there are those who prefer building their mountain with a few keystrokes, rather than a couple of weeks of physical work.

For the latter group, especially if they reside in an 800 square foot apartment with a wife, two kids and a dog, v-railroading may be the better answer (or even the only answer.)  I am lucky enough to have the opposite option.

Just my .  Other opinions are sure to vary!

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[jfugate]

The thing I immediately noticed with v-scale railroading using Microsoft Train Simulator is how completely boring real railroading is. Miles and miles of just running along staring at the passing scenery.

Model railroading feels quite different. Because things are compressed, you get just enough of the "boring running" between towns to be a small snack, then the delightful feast continues as you reach the next town, yard, grade summit, etc. As a result, model railroad operation is a lot more intense and engaging.

Model railroading is like a Tom Cruise movie, with lots of action. V-scale railroading is like World War I trench warfare -- mostly boring times, with a few moments of very interesting action.

Because of the long boring part, I quickly lost interest in v-scale railroading. And I would hardly call it model railroading, since you rarely "model" anything -- you mostly just assemble some premade digital rolling stock and locos into a train, drop them into a piece of virtual scenery that's representative of a real piece of railroad somewhere, and then roll off the miles -- watching all the semi-believable digital scenery roll by. Not exactly exciting, which is why I guess Microsoft dropped the train simulator. Far less exciting than flying virtual air planes, especially to today's youngsters. 

[marknewton]

In short, V-scale represents a totally different area of interest and has absolutely nothing in common with the hobby of model railroading.

Absolutely! I know we have our differences of opinion, but on this I'm with you 110%.

All the best,

Mark.

[marknewton]

   So those of you that think poorly of V scale, and point out it's only a pale shadow of the real thing, I take it that you have a 1:1 scale railroad to run?

Yes, I do. And so my opinion is that computer simulations are a pale shadow of the real thing. My only real exposure to railway sims was attempting to run a virtual steam loco, which was based on a real loco I have fired and driven. Apart from the frustration of trying to "run" the engine via a keyboard, my overall impression was that the sim utterly failed to give any convincing sense of what being on the footplate is really like.

You are playing with toy trains, just like everyone else in this hobby.

To me, that's a another argument altogether, and one I strongly disagree with. But if for the purposes of discussion I allow for the moment that we are, then I say "V-scalers" are not even doing that. They are playing with pictures, not toys. I side with posters like Lee who view virtual trains as illustration, not modelling.

As for realism, if simulators are good enough to train fighter pilots, firemen, police officers and railroad engineers, there has to be something worthwhile to them.

I can't comment about simulator training for pilots or emergency services personnel, but I do have experience with simulator training for railways.

The railway I work for has a simulator facility at the staff college at Petersham. The three major classes of traction are all represented, and are used for both foundation and refresher training.

Our simulators are used for orientation, procedural training, signal recognition, safeworking (the "rules") training, and limited road knowledge instruction. What they are not used for is actual train handling instruction, in-depth road knowledge, fault-finding, or emergency procedures. All of these elements of the training syllabus are carried out in the field, using real trains in the real world.

This division exists because we found that training crew exclusively on simulators - which was tried in the past - did not equip them with sufficient skills, experience or the right mindset to safely deal with all the situations they encountered in service.

I've had work-related visits to other railways, here in Australia and overseas, and I note that most have a similar training methodology. Even on the very sophisticated Japanese Shinkansen network, simulator training is used in conjunction with practical, on-the-road training.

So as far as realism is concerned, at least in the context of railway simulators, they still have a long way to go.

All the best,

Mark.

[CNJ831]

V-scale is simply a form of the graphic arts, as has been clearly pointed out by several posters with experience in applying similar creativity in their own occupations. It requires a totally separate range of skills and talents from model railroading and what is created is in no way real, but simply an image. It is certainly considered in no way model railroading among the more serious hobbyists, as has been made clear in several magazine attempts to intergrate V-scale into their pages. I'm afraid you will only find a moderate degree of acceptance of it here because of the experience/hobby interest level of participants of this site who are, in the main, entry-level people. I recall that when RMC ran several V-scale articles in its pages a few years back, the general response from their readership (see their letters to the editor pages at the time) was to threatened dropping their subscriptions entirely if more pages were devoted to such articles!

In short, V-scale represents a totally different area of interest and has absolutely nothing in common with the hobby of model railroading.

CNJ831 

[philnrunt]

   So those of you that think poorly of V scale, and point out it's only a pale shadow of the real thing, I take it that you have a 1:1 scale railroad to run. You are playing with toy trains, just like everyone else in this hobby. Using a different medium to do it is just a matter of degrees.

  As for realism, if simulators are good enough to train fighter pilots, firemen, police officers and railroad engineers, there has to be something worthwhile to them.

   And the v-scale pics are pretty neat!

   

[tomikawaTT]

V-railroading bears the same resemblance to real railroading that a flight simulator bears to real flying.  It can be made as visually accurate as the programmer's ability can make it...

But it doesn't fire real ordnance, and it doesn't pull real Gs...

In some ways (cost, time to achieve results, the ability to disregard space limitations) v-railroading has advantages over stick-and-wire model railroading...

But it doesn't run like a 'real' model railroad, and it doesn't have the heft of a 'real' model railroad...

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

Yes, V-scale is acceptable and V-Scalers are model railroaders, just as N-scalers are to this HO-scaler.  We just have different preferences for modeling trains.

Mark

Mark,

I hope you're not suggesting N scale model railroading is less "real" than HO.  V-scale appears to be nothing more than advanced computer graphics with railroading as the subject matter.  There is nothing of the mechanics, electronics or hands-on craftsmanship that makes actual scale modeling such a satisfying hobby.

I use computerized design to develop plans for new homes and remodeling projects, but I would never fancy myself a home builder.

In my opinion, you've made pretty, accurately rendered illustrations, nothing more.

Lee 

Lee, you need to "open your mind."

Mark

I disagree.  An opinion was asked for, and given.  Lee's opinion is reasoned and considered, he thought about it, and expressed it.

 

[markpierce]

Yes, V-scale is acceptable and V-Scalers are model railroaders, just as N-scalers are to this HO-scaler.  We just have different preferences for modeling trains.

Mark

Mark,

I hope you're not suggesting N scale model railroading is less "real" than HO.  V-scale appears to be nothing more than advanced computer graphics with railroading as the subject matter.  There is nothing of the mechanics, electronics or hands-on craftsmanship that makes actual scale modeling such a satisfying hobby.

I use computerized design to develop plans for new homes and remodeling projects, but I would never fancy myself a home builder.

In my opinion, you've made pretty, accurately rendered illustrations, nothing more.

Lee 

Lee, you need to "open your mind."

Mark

[trainboyH16-44]

...

Model railroading primarily affects three of our five senses: Sight, Touch and Hearing. V-Scale affects two out of the three, which isn't that bad....

You're forgetting the smell of a molten decoder, and the taste of sawdust as you try to drill into the benchwork from below decks!

Don't forget the very similar smell of a molten graphics card after you try to run MSTS 2 with full graphics on a 2003 computer.  

[wm3798]

...

Model railroading primarily affects three of our five senses: Sight, Touch and Hearing. V-Scale affects two out of the three, which isn't that bad....

You're forgetting the smell of a molten decoder, and the taste of sawdust as you try to drill into the benchwork from below decks!

I still don't think it's appropriate to call it modeling, any more than playing an Indy 500 video game can be called driving.  Video games certainly qualify as a hobby, and that's what this is, a video gaming hobby.  It is not building a model of anything.  It's building an image of a something, (and I'll agree that the images are stunning...) then manipulating it on a video screen.  That's electronic graphics and video gaming, not model building.

Lee 

[mearrin69]

I'm of the belief that 'virtual' hobbies are just as real as any other hobby. That said, I personally prefer 'real world' model railroading more. Oh, and, those are really stellar screen shots in your post. Great texture work on that first loco. How much of that stuff did you do? Just curious.
M

[Metro Red Line]

Originally, I wouldn't consider V-Scale as model railroading AT ALL...

 ...But what if you were a modeler who's an amputee, quadruplegic or suffers from extreme, debilitating cases of arthritis or parkinson's disease? Then V-Scale would be a totally acceptable substitute.

Model railroading primarily affects three of our five senses: Sight, Touch and Hearing. V-Scale affects two out of the three, which isn't that bad. 

So V-Scale isn't model railroading, but still could be. :) If you have a choice, then it's just computer animation or a non-competitive video game, really. But if you have no choice, then it's definitely model railroading.

 

[trainboyH16-44]

I don't see what "modelling' has to do with it. I would just call it "Virtual railroading".

You forget that we make them, we don't just run them.  

[steemtrayn]

I don't see what "modelling' has to do with it. I would just call it "Virtual railroading".

[on30francisco]

V-scale is a different way to participate in the hobby of model railroading. Because it requires certain skills, albeit different than conventional methods, it does qualify as a form of model railroading. Although it is an interesting concept, it is definitely not my cup of tea. I like to build and work with my hands and see and feel the three dimensional objects in real time and form. Ain't nothing like the real thing baby.

[trainboyH16-44]

As someone who models in HO, N, and V scales, I can say that each has their own merits, and I really can't say which one's better. It all depends on preference.

I like HO because it's really THERE and looks pretty real.

I like N because you can pack a lot of action into a small space.

I like V because they're easy to custom paint, and it's not hard to assemble a huge fleet. Plus, you can run over your favorite routes!

I've recently painted up a set of SD40s in CPR, and I've also made a good start on modelling my custom road, the APR - It's so nice to have an "Undo" button!

 

 

 

[luvadj]

I own both programs and I enjoy some "V-scale" when I can sit in front of the computer long enough.

I've found from experience that Trainz is so much more customizable, but MSTS is so much fun to just play with. It has timetables that are just a blast to work.

I believe that Trainz has much better graphics and lends itself to those beautiful screenshots more so than MSTS.

 

[wm3798]

Yes, V-scale is acceptable and V-Scalers are model railroaders, just as N-scalers are to this HO-scaler.  We just have different preferences for modeling trains.

Mark

Mark,

I hope you're not suggesting N scale model railroading is less "real" than HO.  V-scale appears to be nothing more than advanced computer graphics with railroading as the subject matter.  There is nothing of the mechanics, electronics or hands-on craftsmanship that makes actual scale modeling such a satisfying hobby.

I use computerized design to develop plans for new homes and remodeling projects, but I would never fancy myself a home builder.

In my opinion, you've made pretty, accurately rendered illustrations, nothing more.

Lee 

[Pathfinder]

Yes, V-scale is acceptable and V-Scalers are model railroaders, just as N-scalers are to this HO-scaler.  We just have different preferences for modeling trains.

Mark

I agree totally.  V-scale is, to me, an acceptable way to be a model railroader.  Different skills, yes but these are still representations of a real thing.  And there have been several articles in various mr hobby magazines that truly show the skills needed to make believable V-scale layouts.

Awesome models in your first post, keep up the good work and best of luck to you.

[markpierce]

Yes, V-scale is acceptable and V-Scalers are model railroaders, just as N-scalers are to this HO-scaler.  We just have different preferences for modeling trains.

Mark