For many, many years I was a dedicated HO scale modeler. And for the same number of years I was limited in my hobby by funding and physical space.
With advances in computer hardware and software technology, I've found new interest and opportunities to explore my passion virtually; in V-Scale.
I've been building prototypically accurate model railroads for a few years now using popular railroad simulation software. Microsoft Train Simulator and Auran's Trainz are the most popular packages, but others are also available. I, and thousands of others like me, use radar DEM maps to create accurate terrain and plot tracks. Some people specialize in building accurate scale models of locomotives, rolling stock and structures. Of course, we can operate our layouts like any other model railroad including from inside the locomotive cab. The real benefit to v-scale is the lack of financial or space restrictions.
Some of the models are extremely accurate and artwork in their own right. The bulk of v-scalers take the hobby very seriously and consider themselves to be model railroaders as much as those who prefer any other scale. I've included a few example photos below.
I am curious how 'traditional' modelers view v-scale and those who choose to work in this medium.
~Rick
It is something, and I guess we use the word computer model to describe things, but I just can't get myself to call it model railroading. That isn't to say it does not require its own set of skills, but, in my opinion, the difference in that set, and the set required for model railroading make it a different hobby. Please note that this does not mean it is not a perfectly good hobby. I'm not saying it is superior or inferior, just different, and it is not model railroading, to me.
If you want to call it model railroading, I guess you can, but since you asked, I'd say it is not.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Your pics are pretty awesome! Especially that first one. I never seem to have a computer that's up to the task of running those sims. I'd just rather invest my money in my layout instead of my computer or software. Still...cool pics!
I wonder what scale half V would be?
davidmbedard wrote:Ive dabbled in the V scale....but it doesnt replace actually having something in your hand.David B
Ive dabbled in the V scale....but it doesnt replace actually having something in your hand.
David B
I guess the answer lies in how one would define, "model." (with all due respect to Bill) What about photos of model railroads that have been digitally altered in some way. Would they not, in some part, be in the same class as V-Scale? The point of course is that each individual has their own way of enjoying the hobby. So ultimately it really doesn't matter how, "traditional modelers," view your decision. You don't need anyone's permission to do what you do.
Ray
Yes, V-scale is acceptable and V-Scalers are model railroaders, just as N-scalers are to this HO-scaler. We just have different preferences for modeling trains.
Mark
markpierce wrote:Yes, V-scale is acceptable and V-Scalers are model railroaders, just as N-scalers are to this HO-scaler. We just have different preferences for modeling trains.Mark
Mark,
I hope you're not suggesting N scale model railroading is less "real" than HO. V-scale appears to be nothing more than advanced computer graphics with railroading as the subject matter. There is nothing of the mechanics, electronics or hands-on craftsmanship that makes actual scale modeling such a satisfying hobby.
I use computerized design to develop plans for new homes and remodeling projects, but I would never fancy myself a home builder.
In my opinion, you've made pretty, accurately rendered illustrations, nothing more.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
I own both programs and I enjoy some "V-scale" when I can sit in front of the computer long enough.
I've found from experience that Trainz is so much more customizable, but MSTS is so much fun to just play with. It has timetables that are just a blast to work.
I believe that Trainz has much better graphics and lends itself to those beautiful screenshots more so than MSTS.
Bob Berger, C.O.O. N-ovation & Northwestern R.R. My patio layout....SEE IT HERE
There's no place like ~/ ;)
As someone who models in HO, N, and V scales, I can say that each has their own merits, and I really can't say which one's better. It all depends on preference.
I like HO because it's really THERE and looks pretty real.
I like N because you can pack a lot of action into a small space.
I like V because they're easy to custom paint, and it's not hard to assemble a huge fleet. Plus, you can run over your favorite routes!
I've recently painted up a set of SD40s in CPR, and I've also made a good start on modelling my custom road, the APR - It's so nice to have an "Undo" button!
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
steemtrayn wrote:I don't see what "modelling' has to do with it. I would just call it "Virtual railroading".
You forget that we make them, we don't just run them.
Originally, I wouldn't consider V-Scale as model railroading AT ALL...
...But what if you were a modeler who's an amputee, quadruplegic or suffers from extreme, debilitating cases of arthritis or parkinson's disease? Then V-Scale would be a totally acceptable substitute.
Model railroading primarily affects three of our five senses: Sight, Touch and Hearing. V-Scale affects two out of the three, which isn't that bad.
So V-Scale isn't model railroading, but still could be. :) If you have a choice, then it's just computer animation or a non-competitive video game, really. But if you have no choice, then it's definitely model railroading.
I'm of the belief that 'virtual' hobbies are just as real as any other hobby. That said, I personally prefer 'real world' model railroading more. Oh, and, those are really stellar screen shots in your post. Great texture work on that first loco. How much of that stuff did you do? Just curious.M
Metro Red Line wrote:...Model railroading primarily affects three of our five senses: Sight, Touch and Hearing. V-Scale affects two out of the three, which isn't that bad....
Model railroading primarily affects three of our five senses: Sight, Touch and Hearing. V-Scale affects two out of the three, which isn't that bad....
You're forgetting the smell of a molten decoder, and the taste of sawdust as you try to drill into the benchwork from below decks!
I still don't think it's appropriate to call it modeling, any more than playing an Indy 500 video game can be called driving. Video games certainly qualify as a hobby, and that's what this is, a video gaming hobby. It is not building a model of anything. It's building an image of a something, (and I'll agree that the images are stunning...) then manipulating it on a video screen. That's electronic graphics and video gaming, not model building.
wm3798 wrote: Metro Red Line wrote:...Model railroading primarily affects three of our five senses: Sight, Touch and Hearing. V-Scale affects two out of the three, which isn't that bad.... You're forgetting the smell of a molten decoder, and the taste of sawdust as you try to drill into the benchwork from below decks!
Don't forget the very similar smell of a molten graphics card after you try to run MSTS 2 with full graphics on a 2003 computer.
wm3798 wrote: markpierce wrote: Yes, V-scale is acceptable and V-Scalers are model railroaders, just as N-scalers are to this HO-scaler. We just have different preferences for modeling trains.MarkMark,I hope you're not suggesting N scale model railroading is less "real" than HO. V-scale appears to be nothing more than advanced computer graphics with railroading as the subject matter. There is nothing of the mechanics, electronics or hands-on craftsmanship that makes actual scale modeling such a satisfying hobby.I use computerized design to develop plans for new homes and remodeling projects, but I would never fancy myself a home builder.In my opinion, you've made pretty, accurately rendered illustrations, nothing more.Lee
markpierce wrote: Yes, V-scale is acceptable and V-Scalers are model railroaders, just as N-scalers are to this HO-scaler. We just have different preferences for modeling trains.Mark
Lee, you need to "open your mind."
markpierce wrote: wm3798 wrote: markpierce wrote: Yes, V-scale is acceptable and V-Scalers are model railroaders, just as N-scalers are to this HO-scaler. We just have different preferences for modeling trains.MarkMark,I hope you're not suggesting N scale model railroading is less "real" than HO. V-scale appears to be nothing more than advanced computer graphics with railroading as the subject matter. There is nothing of the mechanics, electronics or hands-on craftsmanship that makes actual scale modeling such a satisfying hobby.I use computerized design to develop plans for new homes and remodeling projects, but I would never fancy myself a home builder.In my opinion, you've made pretty, accurately rendered illustrations, nothing more.Lee Lee, you need to "open your mind."Mark
I disagree. An opinion was asked for, and given. Lee's opinion is reasoned and considered, he thought about it, and expressed it.
V-railroading bears the same resemblance to real railroading that a flight simulator bears to real flying. It can be made as visually accurate as the programmer's ability can make it...
But it doesn't fire real ordnance, and it doesn't pull real Gs...
In some ways (cost, time to achieve results, the ability to disregard space limitations) v-railroading has advantages over stick-and-wire model railroading...
But it doesn't run like a 'real' model railroad, and it doesn't have the heft of a 'real' model railroad...
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
So those of you that think poorly of V scale, and point out it's only a pale shadow of the real thing, I take it that you have a 1:1 scale railroad to run. You are playing with toy trains, just like everyone else in this hobby. Using a different medium to do it is just a matter of degrees.
As for realism, if simulators are good enough to train fighter pilots, firemen, police officers and railroad engineers, there has to be something worthwhile to them.
And the v-scale pics are pretty neat!
V-scale is simply a form of the graphic arts, as has been clearly pointed out by several posters with experience in applying similar creativity in their own occupations. It requires a totally separate range of skills and talents from model railroading and what is created is in no way real, but simply an image. It is certainly considered in no way model railroading among the more serious hobbyists, as has been made clear in several magazine attempts to intergrate V-scale into their pages. I'm afraid you will only find a moderate degree of acceptance of it here because of the experience/hobby interest level of participants of this site who are, in the main, entry-level people. I recall that when RMC ran several V-scale articles in its pages a few years back, the general response from their readership (see their letters to the editor pages at the time) was to threatened dropping their subscriptions entirely if more pages were devoted to such articles!
In short, V-scale represents a totally different area of interest and has absolutely nothing in common with the hobby of model railroading.
CNJ831
philnrunt wrote: So those of you that think poorly of V scale, and point out it's only a pale shadow of the real thing, I take it that you have a 1:1 scale railroad to run?
So those of you that think poorly of V scale, and point out it's only a pale shadow of the real thing, I take it that you have a 1:1 scale railroad to run?
You are playing with toy trains, just like everyone else in this hobby.
CNJ831 wrote:In short, V-scale represents a totally different area of interest and has absolutely nothing in common with the hobby of model railroading.
The thing I immediately noticed with v-scale railroading using Microsoft Train Simulator is how completely boring real railroading is. Miles and miles of just running along staring at the passing scenery.
Model railroading feels quite different. Because things are compressed, you get just enough of the "boring running" between towns to be a small snack, then the delightful feast continues as you reach the next town, yard, grade summit, etc. As a result, model railroad operation is a lot more intense and engaging.
Model railroading is like a Tom Cruise movie, with lots of action. V-scale railroading is like World War I trench warfare -- mostly boring times, with a few moments of very interesting action.
Because of the long boring part, I quickly lost interest in v-scale railroading. And I would hardly call it model railroading, since you rarely "model" anything -- you mostly just assemble some premade digital rolling stock and locos into a train, drop them into a piece of virtual scenery that's representative of a real piece of railroad somewhere, and then roll off the miles -- watching all the semi-believable digital scenery roll by. Not exactly exciting, which is why I guess Microsoft dropped the train simulator. Far less exciting than flying virtual air planes, especially to today's youngsters.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
So far, all of us have been concentrating on the "operating" part of v-railroading. How about the "railroad building" part.
When it comes to building my empire, there is a gulf wider than the Grand Canyon between bending real steel (studs, which I use for all my benchwork and subgrade supports,) cutting real plywood and foam sheet stock, driving real screws, spreading real latex caulk and putting down real flex track to connect my hand-laid turnouts - and the equivalent activity on a v-railroad. I have to physically go into a dedicated space, use real tools and work with actual building materials and manufactured trackwork. It can't be done while camped on my keister in front of a monitor with a mouse.
I readily admit that, when it comes to construction, I am a touchy-feely kind of person. I spent much of my adult life with a wrench in one hand, and have no objection to getting my hands dirty.
I also admit that there are others who want to spend their hobby time wearing white gloves, and heaven forfend that they might get ground goop on their cummerbunds! Likewise, there are those who prefer building their mountain with a few keystrokes, rather than a couple of weeks of physical work.
For the latter group, especially if they reside in an 800 square foot apartment with a wife, two kids and a dog, v-railroading may be the better answer (or even the only answer.) I am lucky enough to have the opposite option.
Just my . Other opinions are sure to vary!
jfugate wrote: The thing I immediately noticed with v-scale railroading using Microsoft Train Simulator is how completely boring real railroading is. Miles and miles of just running along staring at the passing scenery.Model railroading feels quite different. Because things are compressed, you get just enough of the "boring running" between towns to be a small snack, then the delightful feast continues as you reach the next town, yard, grade summit, etc. As a result, model railroad operation is a lot more intense and engaging.Model railroading is like a Tom Cruise movie, with lots of action. V-scale railroading is like World War I trench warfare -- mostly boring times, with a few moments of very interesting action. Because of the long boring part, I quickly lost interest in v-scale railroading. And I would hardly call it model railroading, since you rarely "model" anything -- you mostly just assemble some premade digital rolling stock and locos into a train, drop them into a piece of virtual scenery that's representative of a real piece of railroad somewhere, and then roll off the miles -- watching all the semi-believable digital scenery roll by. Not exactly exciting, which is why I guess Microsoft dropped the train simulator. Far less exciting than flying virtual air planes, especially to today's youngsters.
Auran's "Trainz" is much more model railroad based than is MSTS. I found "Trainz" more interesting than MSTS, but not enough to become an afficionado.
Model anything that involves actual scale hardware that duplicates live action is generally more interesting than real life or its virtual representation (assuming "full" realism). Dogfighting over Germany during WWII can be interesting, especially if your life isn't actually on the line. Nonetheless, if you're in a dogfight with an Me-109 or FW-190 over central Germany, it's most likely because you're escorting bombers to target. That involves hours of really boring flying until you get to the good stuff. The "good stuff" is then followed by hours of really boring flying unless you got shot down or your plane is so badly damaged that it's an adventure just keeping it in the air. A fully realistic flight simulator would require you to undertake your mission from the early morning briefing until return to base. I don't think you'd sell many copies of a game like that.
Several months ago, I was privileged to partake in an operating session on a rather large model railroad where I and another guy were assigned a mine turn. Getting from the originating point to the mine involved running over about 2 /12 scale miles of track. That was boring. It wasn't until we got to the mine that things got exciting, fast. Both of us were complete newbies to operations. The first thing we discovered was that our train was about 2 cars too long to clear at the siding. I remember that the first words out of my fellow crew member's mouth were "We're screwed". We weren't, but it seemed like it at the time. In order to give ourselves room to work, we had to find a place to stash some of the empty hoppers so we could work and be able to clear any trains that would pass through, so we stashed about half our cars on a mine branch since we had to exchange about that many with the mine on the branch (we were working two mines off the main as well). I won't go into all the detail, but our task was to exchange 25 empty hoppers for 25 loads at 3 different mines as well as drop off a boxcar of supplies each at 2 mines. It took us a couple of real hours to accomplish that task. Naturally, the return trip was a snooze even though we had to meet a couple of opposing trains.
Frank Ellison was big on the "drama" of railroading. The truth is, most of it, like life in general, is pretty much of a snooze. That's why the boring parts (which involves most of it) are ignored in play or movie. At least they're supposed to be.
Andre
philnrunt wrote: So those of you that think poorly of V scale, and point out it's only a pale shadow of the real thing, I take it that you have a 1:1 scale railroad to run. You are playing with toy trains, just like everyone else in this hobby. Using a different medium to do it is just a matter of degrees. As for realism, if simulators are good enough to train fighter pilots, firemen, police officers and railroad engineers, there has to be something worthwhile to them. And the v-scale pics are pretty neat!
I never said I thought poorly of V scale, I just don't think it's model railroading. It is virtual railroading, in my opinion a hobby of its own.
I was really excited to get MS Train Simulator for Christmas a few years ago. I sat down and played with gusto. I created my own paint scheme, created some of my own scenery. I was rapidly bored out of my skull. In operation in some reguards it is too real namely too much like real work. There is a reason they pay people in real life to do this sort of thing. There is a reason they have the alarm that goes off to wake up the engineer - it is boring, tedious work.
It probably doesn't help that I am a computer professional and 40-50 hours a week on the job with computers doesn't exactly spur my passion for yet more boring computer work.
Finally, it reminds me too much of all the "photographs" that are starting to show up which aren't photographs at all but digitally painted pictures. Smoke and mirrors. Anyone can cut a moon out of a real photograph and plaster it into the "sky" of their model trains. It does not make a good photograph. In the old days we called it dark room tricks.
So as long as one doesn't mind all the work and as long as no one ever forgets it is all virtual stuff for fun, I say more power to those people. I just won't be one of them. Now maybe when it gets to the point where there I am sitting in a real cab with all the tilt and shift stuff to simulate the feeling of inerta and g-forces and I am looking out the cab windows into simulated stuff - then I might get more interested. But once again, why not just go down and get a job at the real railroad. They are always needing train crews.