Vail and Southwestern RR wrote: Driline wrote: Most People buying a DCC system for the first time are purchasing it for their home layouts that are most likely not much larger than a 4X8 or small bedroom layout. If your layout is much larger than that, then obviously you would be buying a full blown DCC system, So it only makes sense that you could get away with running no more than say 2 loco's or need more than 2 throttles.Assuming you've got the people to run them it doesn't take much space to be able to run four or more trains (thinking N scale here). A switcher in the yard, a local peddler, a through freight, a passenger train, and maybe a hostler, and you're at five. I've got four kids, and I am modelling in N scale, so I think that way! I'm in 12x14 (actually more like 14x16, since I'm maintaining access in some 'shared' areas), and can easily see five or six running without too much interference, if I ever get the thing finished, and have anything left over for rolling stock!
Driline wrote: Most People buying a DCC system for the first time are purchasing it for their home layouts that are most likely not much larger than a 4X8 or small bedroom layout. If your layout is much larger than that, then obviously you would be buying a full blown DCC system, So it only makes sense that you could get away with running no more than say 2 loco's or need more than 2 throttles.
Most People buying a DCC system for the first time are purchasing it for their home layouts that are most likely not much larger than a 4X8 or small bedroom layout. If your layout is much larger than that, then obviously you would be buying a full blown DCC system, So it only makes sense that you could get away with running no more than say 2 loco's or need more than 2 throttles.
Assuming you've got the people to run them it doesn't take much space to be able to run four or more trains (thinking N scale here). A switcher in the yard, a local peddler, a through freight, a passenger train, and maybe a hostler, and you're at five. I've got four kids, and I am modelling in N scale, so I think that way! I'm in 12x14 (actually more like 14x16, since I'm maintaining access in some 'shared' areas), and can easily see five or six running without too much interference, if I ever get the thing finished, and have anything left over for rolling stock!
Hey if you can see yourself running 5 trains at once on a 12X14 layout, then more power to ya.
I have a tough enough time just keeping track of one engine making sure the turnouts are thrown correctly on a 7X11 layout
Driline wrote: Vail and Southwestern RR wrote: Driline wrote: Most People buying a DCC system for the first time are purchasing it for their home layouts that are most likely not much larger than a 4X8 or small bedroom layout. If your layout is much larger than that, then obviously you would be buying a full blown DCC system, So it only makes sense that you could get away with running no more than say 2 loco's or need more than 2 throttles.Assuming you've got the people to run them it doesn't take much space to be able to run four or more trains (thinking N scale here). A switcher in the yard, a local peddler, a through freight, a passenger train, and maybe a hostler, and you're at five. I've got four kids, and I am modelling in N scale, so I think that way! I'm in 12x14 (actually more like 14x16, since I'm maintaining access in some 'shared' areas), and can easily see five or six running without too much interference, if I ever get the thing finished, and have anything left over for rolling stock! Hey if you can see yourself running 5 trains at once on a 12X14 layout, then more power to ya.I have a tough enough time just keeping track of one engine making sure the turnouts are thrown correctly on a 7X11 layout
Not by myself! I thought I was clear about that part. I've got four sons. And they have friends. Still probably crash now and then....
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Ted M.
got trains?™
See my photos at: http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
Sorry, Ted. Gotta disagree with you. Although Digitrax does make a great system and components, no one DCC system is right for everyone.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Never mind the **** 5 trains on a layout stand back and let the ABBA F7 Consist through with it's Helpers too.
I chose Digitrax because it is easy to understand and if something didnt work, I am the one who generated the error, not the system.
That's funny, I chose NCE back in 1999 because I thought it was the easiest to understand. I still do, and I still run NCE.
Bob
There are so many questions we all could be here all night debating this as usual.
Myself, I picked the Powercab because I feel like I would have to walk with the manual in hand on some other systems. Will I remember all the functions next time I operate, or is it just plain simple to use?
I like the mobillity( if you want to call it that) of the Powercab, even if its limmited. I simply purchased a long(10') enough 6 wire coil cord to cover the entire layout. I would consider the stationary throttle, but only for a yard throttle.Even then my yard and its industries are about 13 feet long requiring the Yard master to move to where he must couple, uncouple, and verify cars.
I am with some of the guys here on the need for my DCC system to be able to run a DC loco. Why? How long do you think it would take for you to try this and never use the feature again?
With the jump ports on the Digitrax I suppose you could mount the old powerpacks anywhere on the layout so this could be a benefit.
By the way the POwercab can utilize only one(1) additional throttle, not 2 as noted earlier.
My best test to date for my Powercab + 1 throttle (N-scale) was 2 double headed trains + 2 other mainline trains + a yard switcher. Remember, even though the recall stack is only 2 on the Powercab you can still dial up a new loco while the others continue to run.
You see, we can go rounds on this stuff all night. Therefor I highly recomend that you get some experience with the throttle at least. Read the online manuals over and over. Then come back and ask some more dirrect questions. We all love to debate this.( if you didn't notice already).
Shoot the original poster may never come back to this.
John
I prefer Digitrax for two three reasons: 2 or 4 digit addressing, up to 14 functions and the DT400R Super Throttle.
NCE is straight 4 digit. This may or may not matter to you.
NCE allow up 12 functions.
I think that once you get a DT400R in your hand, you'll never want to let go of it, it's that much fun to use. It may not be as comfortable in your hand (I wouldn't be suprised if they redesign the ergonomics soon) as NCE Pro Cab but it has two throttle knobs vs. one wheel. And it doesn't matter which Digitrax system you use, LocoNet is standard on all three.
Now OTOH, if you plan on running 60+ trains using 60+ decoders (mobile or stationary) a single NCE Powerhouse Pro might be for you. I didn't think so.... If you've done your homework you know that the Digitrax Zephyr (DCS50) accomodates 10 addresses and the Empire builder (DB150) and Super Chief (DCS100) can accomodate up to 22. The NCE Powerhouse Pro accomodates up to 63.
Now, if your layout is that big, and I'm guessing that it's not, you'll be dividing it in districts anyway. This is where Digitrax is so cool, you can add additional DB150s or DCS100s as boosters, assuming that your within the 5.0 amp limit per district. If by the remote chance that 5.0 amps is not enough, DCS200s will give you 8.0 amps of power. Overkill, right?
I am, however, impressed with Lenz' s warrantee policy, 10 years compared to Digitrax's and NCE's 1 year.
spidge wrote:By the way the POwercab can utilize only one(1) additional throttle, not 2 as noted earlier.
I may have said four, I was considering the Smart Booster. My problem is if you go over four you start to have stuff you didn't really need to buy. Actually, that's een true when you add the Smart Booster, since now the power and layout control functions that you pay for in the PowerCab are redundant. On the other hand, the ProCab system makes a lot of sense to me, if you need more than the PowerCab alone can provide.
Ted,
Just a couple of corrections. The NCE Power Cab and Powerhouse Pro has:
Also, when you say that the "Digitrax Zephyr (DCS50) accomodates 10 addresses and the Empire builder (DB150) and Super Chief (DCS100) can accomodate up to 22. The NCE Powerhouse Pro accomodates up to 63", are you talking about the maximum number of locomotives each system can run at one time? If you are only referring to the storage ability of each system, I believe any of the Digitrax and NCE systems will store up to 9,999 locomotives addresses.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote:Oh yeah, I can pee farther than you.
Can not! Shouldn't you be asleep?
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:Oh yeah, I can pee farther than you.Can not! Shouldn't you be asleep?
Yep. Went to bed three hours ago. Couldn't sleep so thought I'd read some entertaining arguments. Yawn. It worked.
Arguing about which system is better is like comparing wives (or husbands). It's strictly personal preferences. One person's boon is another's bane.
I use NCE on my layout. It's simple and easy, right out of the box. But it's very flexible as well.
I operate on a layout that uses Digitrax. It's also very flexible. Is it simple and easy? Maybe so, but I didn't install it, so I honestly don't know that part.
But on either system, when I'm operating a train, I turn the knob and the choo-choo goes! I push a button and it goes the other way!
What could be simpler?
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Well, my posts always seem to stir up conversation!! Thanks for all the input. I am doing a small bedroom layout 10 by 11 room. And after hearing that Digitrax can run a DC loco and more locos out of the box than NCE, I think I'll go with Digitrax.
Mike
Seems to me, so much of it boils down to some simple propositions. I think the central killer apps of DCC are multiple engines running, lashups, less wiring and perhaps autoreversing. Simple wiring is the same on all of them. Autreversing you can do with any of them, all accomodate the add-on. Lashups, they all handle. Multiple units...how many separated engines are you really going to be able to coherently run at once?...outside of "hey, look, i'm running 10 engines at once!" joyriding. Handheld throttles are nice, but if you're in a 10x10 layout or so, how much walking around are you going to do...and a 7' cord may be just fine in that case. And if you're operating a small layout and not a neighborhood operating session, or don't plan to knock a wall down to make a 30' space, will you really need ports for more than a couple of people? These questions of expandibility are great, but temper them with reality.
I just recently bought the NCE system, and thus far in my initial noodling with it, I'm very pleased. It's quite simple, really. The power will be adequate for my layout size and numbers of locos running, with essentially just myself and my son operating. The handheld is nice, manageable and intuitive, and offers me enough mobility...i'm not glued to a panel. Maybe someday I'll get bored when my layout is complete and I'm just tweaking details, and perhaps I'll tinker with my system, but most of the extra DCC functions, outside of multiple units and lashups, I don't think I'll use much. Maybe it's too early for me to say, but the talk about a gadzillion extra functions...seems to me to beyond the pale.
Starting out in DCC...keep the decisions simple.
Ted Marshall wrote:I prefer Digitrax for two three reasons: 2 or 4 digit addressing, up to 14 functions and the DT400R Super Throttle. NCE is straight 4 digit. This may or may not matter to you.NCE allow up 12 functions.I think that once you get a DT400R in your hand, you'll never want to let go of it, it's that much fun to use. It may not be as comfortable in your hand (I wouldn't be suprised if they redesign the ergonomics soon) as NCE Pro Cab but it has two throttle knobs vs. one wheel. And it doesn't matter which Digitrax system you use, LocoNet is standard on all three. Now OTOH, if you plan on running 60+ trains using 60+ decoders (mobile or stationary) a single NCE Powerhouse Pro might be for you. I didn't think so.... If you've done your homework you know that the Digitrax Zephyr (DCS50) accomodates 10 addresses and the Empire builder (DB150) and Super Chief (DCS100) can accomodate up to 22. The NCE Powerhouse Pro accomodates up to 63. Now, if your layout is that big, and I'm guessing that it's not, you'll be dividing it in districts anyway. This is where Digitrax is so cool, you can add additional DB150s or DCS100s as boosters, assuming that your within the 5.0 amp limit per district. If by the remote chance that 5.0 amps is not enough, DCS200s will give you 8.0 amps of power. Overkill, right? I am, however, impressed with Lenz' s warrantee policy, 10 years compared to Digitrax's and NCE's 1 year.
I'm a Lenz man, myself. I chose Lenz because I liked the big-button throttle, and (at the time) it was the only one that came with 5 amps right out of the box. It also supported more functions than some others (again, then, not now maybe) and was supported at my LHS.
The Lenz 100 has terminals for a control bus built into it. I've got a 5x12 foot walk-around table layout, so I wired up a jack in each corner, and one one the center of each long side, for a total of 6 in all. That way, I can plug my throttle in anywhere around the layout and run from there. The trains all keep running when I pull the throttle out of its jack and move it to another.
For the OP's benefit, how do Digitrax and NCE deal with connecting up a control bus? This might be an consideration, too.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Ted Marshall wrote: I prefer Digitrax for two three reasons: 2 or 4 digit addressing, up to 14 functions and the DT400R Super Throttle. NCE is straight 4 digit. This may or may not matter to you.NCE allow up 12 functions.I think that once you get a DT400R in your hand, you'll never want to let go of it, it's that much fun to use. It may not be as comfortable in your hand (I wouldn't be suprised if they redesign the ergonomics soon) as NCE Pro Cab but it has two throttle knobs vs. one wheel. And it doesn't matter which Digitrax system you use, LocoNet is standard on all three. Now OTOH, if you plan on running 60+ trains using 60+ decoders (mobile or stationary) a single NCE Powerhouse Pro might be for you. I didn't think so.... If you've done your homework you know that the Digitrax Zephyr (DCS50) accomodates 10 addresses and the Empire builder (DB150) and Super Chief (DCS100) can accomodate up to 22. The NCE Powerhouse Pro accomodates up to 63. Now, if your layout is that big, and I'm guessing that it's not, you'll be dividing it in districts anyway. This is where Digitrax is so cool, you can add additional DB150s or DCS100s as boosters, assuming that your within the 5.0 amp limit per district. If by the remote chance that 5.0 amps is not enough, DCS200s will give you 8.0 amps of power. Overkill, right? I am, however, impressed with Lenz' s warrantee policy, 10 years compared to Digitrax's and NCE's 1 year.
Many parts of your statement are incorrect.
NCE can do either 2 or 4 digit addressing and handle both at the same time. Whether you use 2 or 4 digit addressing is dependent on the decoder, how the decoder is programmed and which address has been activated.
NCE, Powercab or PowerHousePro, can access up to F28. You failed to mention that Digitrax, depending on the system, can only access up to F12.
It is actually easier to add a booster to an NCE system than with Digitrax. On a PHP system you simply connect the booster to the command station via the plug-in ports built into the components. As booster is a booster, unlike trying to use a DCS100 as a booster. My experience has found that if the Digitrax components are not turned on in the proper order then problems occur. The booster thinks its a command station and the command station thinks its a command station which cause big problems when you have 2 command stations on the same layout.
I'll disagree with your comment about never wanting to let go of the DT400. I couldn't wait to get rid of it for a ProCab. The DT400 has very small buttons, a small, difficult to read LCD display. The labeling of the buttons on the DT400 is in very small type with buttons performing multiple functions. The standard, non-radio DT400 does not come with a coiled cord, but instead uses a straight cable that dangles down and gets in the way.
In your unbiased comments you also failed to mentioned that a DT400 does not come with a Zephyr system, but is an add-on costing around $140-$150. At DT400R is $179, and the OP has not indicated any desire to go wireless (which is another whole subject). Only by adding a DT400 will you get walk around capability, other wise you're tied to the location where you mounted the Zephyr. You can purchase an additional throttle (a Cab04p) for about $70. Since the PowerCab provides the full display needed for programming, consisting, etc, a second cab can be the more simpler Cab04 which is excellent for running trains. Adding a SB3 booster to the PowerCab increases the total power of the system and provides for full walk around usage of the Powercab. Additional cost approx $80. So, the cost of adding a DT400 is approximately equal to adding a second cab to the PowerCab and the SB3, which increases the power output beyond the Zephyr's output of 2.5 amps.
There are also differences in the default method of consisting, how consisting is done and methods of programming. Items to be discussed at a later time.
jktrains wrote: Ted Marshall wrote: I prefer Digitrax for two three reasons: 2 or 4 digit addressing, up to 14 functions and the DT400R Super Throttle. NCE is straight 4 digit. This may or may not matter to you.NCE allow up 12 functions.I think that once you get a DT400R in your hand, you'll never want to let go of it, it's that much fun to use. It may not be as comfortable in your hand (I wouldn't be suprised if they redesign the ergonomics soon) as NCE Pro Cab but it has two throttle knobs vs. one wheel. And it doesn't matter which Digitrax system you use, LocoNet is standard on all three. Now OTOH, if you plan on running 60+ trains using 60+ decoders (mobile or stationary) a single NCE Powerhouse Pro might be for you. I didn't think so.... If you've done your homework you know that the Digitrax Zephyr (DCS50) accomodates 10 addresses and the Empire builder (DB150) and Super Chief (DCS100) can accomodate up to 22. The NCE Powerhouse Pro accomodates up to 63. Now, if your layout is that big, and I'm guessing that it's not, you'll be dividing it in districts anyway. This is where Digitrax is so cool, you can add additional DB150s or DCS100s as boosters, assuming that your within the 5.0 amp limit per district. If by the remote chance that 5.0 amps is not enough, DCS200s will give you 8.0 amps of power. Overkill, right? I am, however, impressed with Lenz' s warrantee policy, 10 years compared to Digitrax's and NCE's 1 year.Ted,Many parts of your statement are incorrect.I'll disagree with your comment about never wanting to let go of the DT400. I couldn't wait to get rid of it for a ProCab. The DT400 has very small buttons, a small, difficult to read LCD display. The labeling of the buttons on the DT400 is in very small type with buttons performing multiple functions. The standard, non-radio DT400 does not come with a coiled cord, but instead uses a straight cable that dangles down and gets in the way.
Here Here! Finally! My point exactly. If you're going to be operating with a tethered throttle for hours at a time, make sure it fits comfortably in your hand, and the buttons are easy and intuitive to operate. This is where I think NCE Powercab wins hands down, and one of the reasons I purchased it.
Also, if you've only got $150 bucks to spend for a starter system, remember the NCE Powercab is a 7' tethered throttle able to move around withing a 14' space, where the Digitrax STARTER set is a cool looking BASE throttle that DOES NOT MOVE. (Unless you want to look stupid and carry it around on your hip ).
3 reasons I bought the NCE powercab over the Zephyr.
1) Less expensive (about 20 bucks)
2) Walk around throttle (YES it still counts even though you cant unplug it)
3) Erogonomically it fits better in my hand and the LCD display is easy to use and operate
Since we are now getting our facts straightened out, don't forget that the UT4 walk around cab can be added to a Digitrax system for about $65. You don't have to spring for the loaded DT400. Which I happen to really like because it is actually 2 throttles in one and can control 2 locos without having to switch back and forth.
Ahhh....All is now well with the forum! These futile NCE/Digitrax "mine is bigger than yours" discussions are never quite the same until JK weighs in.
They are both excellent systems backed by very good companies. Some prefer one, some prefer the other. As solid competitors they each drive the other company to improve. Does anyone think NCE would have come out with the PowerCab were it not for the success of the Zephyr? Does anyone think that Digitrax would be working on duplex radio if it were not for NCE?
If you can try them both and pick the one you like the feel of the best, that is the way to go.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Simon, I didn't want to disappoint you by not participating. Personally, this is one of those topics that I wish was never allowed to be posted again. There is no definitive answer; picking a system is a personal choice based an numerous intangibles.
I hear what you're saying about getting a UT4, except the prior posts all recommend getting a DT400 because they feel the need to have that to do things like programming, which are supposed to be easier to do on the DT400 than the Zephyr. That's why the DT400 was used as a comparison rather than the UT4. Most people assume the DT400 and the ProCab to be equal or comparable products, while the UT4 and the Cab04 are similar or comparable. So for an apples to apples comparison you'd add a DT400 to be equal to the PowerCab/ProCab and still use the Zephyr base as the second throttle. To make the PowerCab comparable to the Zephyr/DT400 combo you don't need to add another ProCab, you just need to add a basic road throttle like the Cab04. By the way, if you go with the Cab04e it can be used to run 2 trains simultaneously just like the UT4.
As always, the best thing to do is to take each out for a test drive. If you don't have a local club, know other layout owners, or if the LHS doesn't stock both mfgs, you might find a local train show with either vendors that sell both or with display layouts using various DCC systems and be able to spend some time talking to them about the system and even trying it out.
Stevert wrote: jfugate wrote:As to the Zephyr versus an NCE PowerCab, the most immediately obvious difference is the stationary power-pack form factor of the Zephyr versus the mobile handheld form factor of the PowerCab. Bzzzt! Wrong answer. The two most obvious differences are initial abilities and expandability. As noted elsewhere in this thread, the Zephyr out of the box, besides having more amperage, is capable of 10 additional throttles vs. 2 out of the box for the PowerCab. Steve
jfugate wrote:As to the Zephyr versus an NCE PowerCab, the most immediately obvious difference is the stationary power-pack form factor of the Zephyr versus the mobile handheld form factor of the PowerCab.
As to the Zephyr versus an NCE PowerCab, the most immediately obvious difference is the stationary power-pack form factor of the Zephyr versus the mobile handheld form factor of the PowerCab.
Bzzzt! Wrong answer. The two most obvious differences are initial abilities and expandability. As noted elsewhere in this thread, the Zephyr out of the box, besides having more amperage, is capable of 10 additional throttles vs. 2 out of the box for the PowerCab.
Steve
C'mon, Steve. Put down the boxing gloves. Joe was talking visual differences here.
Stevert wrote:Sorry Joe, but your arguments just don't fly.Steve
Sorry Joe, but your arguments just don't fly.
Steve:
Did you notice the IMO in my post?
That means In My Opinion.
When I do my DCC clinics I always start them with my disclaimer: "This material is based on 14 years of experience with DCC, and is often my opinion. You may have a different opinion or approach that also works for you, and that's great. If we all had exactly the same personal preferences life would be pretty booring."
The truth is both of these two systems will give great service and are owned by many happy users.
The bottom line is: just pick one.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
caellis wrote:Don't hear much from the Lenz owners in these discussions. I guess they are just having fun running their layout and have too much sense to participate in these never ending 'my Dad can beat up your Dad' discussions.
Oh yea? Well my little sister can beat up your Dad.
cwclark wrote:I use the digitrax super chief. yes, it's a bit techy because there are more buttons to push to get it up and running but am satisfied with the system. If this is your first DCC system than the NCE is not as complicated. The only thing i don't like about the NCE system is that big hogg'in hand held control. On the other hand, I prefer the NCE decoders over the digitrax decoders. I do have a few digitrax decoders and they are working fine, but i've heard complaints from others that the digitrax decoders have a bad habit of burning out lightbulbs in their locomotives....chuck
We prefer the term "HAMMER HEAD" or "Boat Anchor" as opposed to "hoggin" hand held controls.
You are right about the NCE Procab. I don't like it either to operate with, I have 4 of them though, because of a few sound equipped engines. On the other hand I have 15 of the CAB04P and PR's (radio), and that is the preferred cab for most of my operating group. nice size, easy to use, you can actually watch your train running instead of watching the screen on the procab.