I'm building my first layout and have decided to go with DCC. Now, it's going to be a fairly small 10 by 12 foot room around the wall layout. So, I'm trying to decide between Digitrax Zephyr and North Coast Engineering's PowerCab system. My local hobby shop owner said they are both good, but Digitrax is more for computer-oriented folks, if that's your cup of tea. They are both about the same price as well. Any favorites out there or suggestions on why to choose one over the other?
Thanks,
Mike
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I have been a Digitrax owner and user for almost ten years. It has been a very reliable system. To use a computer with your Digitrax system you will need to get a Digitrax MS-100 which is a RS-232 serial interface or a USB Loco Buffer. (Most new computers do not have RS-232 ports.) You can download Decoder Pro software form the Internet for free. Decoder Pro will alow you to program decoders, run signals and create computer based throttles. With Decoder Pro and a computer interface you do not need to buy the expensive DT-400 throttle. (I have one and do not use it for programming.) Just get the easy to use and less expensive UT-4. If you want to upgrade your digitrax to radio control you will need to buy a UP-91 radio receiver and UT-4R radio throttles.
JIM
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
Play with both the throttles and see which one you like better. The throttle will be your interface to the layout. It should feel "right" to your fingers. I'm a Lenz user myself, and one of the big selling points to me was the big buttons on the throttle. (I've got big hands, and I hate trying to get my fat fingers to push itty-bitty cell phone buttons.)
The Zephyr, as I recall, runs directly from the base station and requires purchase of an additional walk-around throttle if you want that capability. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this point - it's important.) The NCE comes with a walk-around.
Since you're a new DCC person, be aware of this: Throttles are not interchangeable. You can't plug an NCE throttle into a Lenz or Digitrax system, or any other combination, either. (Yeah, there are a couple of exceptions, like old Atlas systems are really Lenz systems, but we'll ignore those for now.) So, if you want additional throttles and you buy a Zephyr, you must go with Digitrax throttles from then on.
The good news is that these are both great products, and you will probably be very happy with either one.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Hello!
Think about what you expect to use in the future, and try to calculate a total cost - the start package is quite equal in price. This could change depending on what you want for extra's - I summed up my wishes some years ago, and went to Digitrax, and have not looked over to NCE after that. My advice is to take future plans into consideration! In the beginning I believe the hand control is the largest difference between the two systems.
Another thought is - do you know any fellow MRR-person in your area, or maybe a MR club, also using DCC? As a newbie it is nice to have someone to ask all those questions - and get help. Both NCE and Digitrax has great user forums on Yahoo Groups, where you can get all kind of help.
As others have staded, both are great systems!
Greetings from Olav, Norway
Hello again!
No - Decoders may be mixed between systems. I prefer Digitrax ones because of the wrapping around the decoder - but I also have some NCE decoders. It all depends on what functions you want of your loco, and the price you are willing to pay for the decoder.
Best regards, Olav
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
So, if I have some DC locos that I haven't gotten around to putting decoders in yet, they will still run using Digitrax? Out of the box with Digitrax, or do you need to buy something to get DC to work?
Hello
That's correct, but only ONE dc loco at the same time.
Olav
To clarify running DC on a DCC system:
When you do this, you go back to "running the track" for your DC engines. So, you can actually put as many DC engines as you want on the track, and they will all run, just like they would on a DC layout. You simply can't control them independently. You can consist 2 DC locos, and they'll run together, about as well as they would on DC. Like DC, you don't control "forward and reverses," but rather "direction of travel" on your layout, like clockwise or counter-clockwise around a loop. At the same time, though, you still have full DCC control of any DCC engines on the layout.
Auto-reversers do not work as you would want them to for DC engines on a DCC layout.
Also, the DC engines don't run very well, and they emit a weird buzzing sound when running on DCC.
Unless you have a huge fleet of DC engines, though, this doesn't matter much. Once you start using DCC, you will like it so much that you'll make it a priority to put decoders in all your engines. Yeah, it really is that much better.
Just to expand on what Olav and Jeff have already said. You can operate one consist of analog locomotives, two or more coupled together, with the Digitrax system and you don't need any optional equipment to do it.
DC locomotives will emit a sizzling sound when sitting still and at low speeds, but it stops as the locomotive comes up to speed. The signals running through the rails are pulses that are just out of phase between the rails. This causes the armature on the DC motor to oscillate slightly when at rest. While running, there's no problem, but I wouldn't let one sit on the rails at rest for a long period of time. I don't know if damage would occur, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
I have a Digitrax system myself, an older model Chief II. It is a great system and does everything I've asked of it. Having never operated an NEC, I can't comment on that, but from what I've heard, it a good system too.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
I have used both systems and they are both good. I have a Zephyr at home and like it. The thing not mentioned is the Zypher is 2.5a and I beliece the NCE is 1.7a if so, there's a significant power advantage with the Zephyr which means you don't have to upgrade so soon.
The Zephyr will run 10 engines while the NCE will run 6.
However, the NCE is built into the cab and the Zephyr (although you can control 3 locos with the consol and a couple old DC power packs) it's cool to add the walk around throttles and they cost more to add.
So for having frieinds over to run, the Zephyr I think has the prcie advantage.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Mike,
You've gotten good and solid advice so far. Both systems would be great choices and each has it's pluses and minuses, advantages and disadvantages. As Simon recommended, if at all possible, see if you can actually try both of them out at your LHS.
Mike, there's a link to a review of the NCE Power Cab that I wrote on my web site that may be of benefit to you. Along with that, there's also a review of their CAB-04p throttle and Smart Booster. Hopefully, the information and pictures will help answer some of the questions you might have and help you in the decision making process of determining which system will best meet your needs.
Also, writing down what your current and foreseeable future layout needs will be (e.g. size of layout, expansion possibilities, number of locomotives you want to run at one time, etc.) will be also help you narrow down your choices to one system or the other.
Mike, whichever system you should ultimately choose, you'll be happy with it and it will serve you well. Let us know what you end up deciding on.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
If your hobby shop has both systems in stock, I would ask them if you could hold the walk around throttles of both systems in your hand and see which one is most comfortable for you. The zephyr tends to be somewhat smaller in design with little round buttons and small potentiometers, while the NCE power cab is more like a large remote which uses a thumbwheel or soft buttons to advance or retard the locomotive.
Now if you belong to a club that uses either the Zephyr or the NCE, well thats a no brainer. Buy the one the club uses.
Guess which one I bought?
Yo, jamnest
Could you tell me more about Decoder Pro, if you don't mind.
DecoderPro is free open-source software that lets you program decoders using a PC. The great thing is you can use your mouse to just point and click options and you don't have to remember what CV does what, which value does what, and so on.
Besides this, you can open multiple windows at once, so you can have the panels for two locos up at the same time, which makes speed matching two locos (via programming on the main) about as simple as it gets.
You can save off your loco settings to disk, which gives you a backup of all your loco decoder settings.
Since the loco settings are on disk, if you get a new loco with the same decoder in it, you can just copy all the settings from another loco in a few seconds and shazzam! The new loco now has all the same decoder settings you like from the other loco.
Decoder programming doesn't get any easier. Once you've used DecoderPro, you won't ever want to go back programming the old way, one CV or binary bit setting at a time, while reading and rereading the decoder manual. And did I say DecoderPro is free?
You do need a computer interface on your DCC system. The NCE full ProCab system comes with the computer interface built in, as does EasyDCC (EasyDCC requires you build a special cable, however). All other DCC systems require you purchase the computer interface separately, at a cost of about $100.
You will also need a PC with a serial interface. A laptop will be the most convenient unless you have a PC already that's in the layout room. Most computers these days DONT have a serial interface, just USB. So you may need to purchase a serial to USB convertor for another $50.
You can get a USB computer interface for Digitrax, and word is NCE will soon release a USB computer interface for their PowerCab starter system. No convertor is needed for these to use a USB port as is found on most modern PCs.
As far as I'm concerned, a DCC system with a computer interface is the only way to go and is worth every penny. I can program a dozen locos in just a few minutes now, where before it would take me all evening just to do a couple locos and get them tuned to run like I wanted. And being able to open multiple windows makes speed matching two locos a piece of cake.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
bearman wrote: Yo, jamnestCould you tell me more about Decoder Pro, if you don't mind.
Joe Fugate has said it all.
I had previously used another computer interface software with my Digitrax System, but Joe Fugate pointed me to DecoderPro. Volume #3 of his video series has extensive information about using decoder pro. You'll find the rest of his video series a great resource too!
MisterBeasley wrote: Play with both the throttles and see which one you like better.
They both have add-on throttles that have a different in-hand feeling which migh make a long term difference to you as well.
The Zephyr has its unique "jumper" ports that allow any normal DC controller to be hooked in and used as a DCC throttle.
As to the Zephyr versus an NCE PowerCab, the most immediately obvious difference is the stationary power-pack form factor of the Zephyr versus the mobile handheld form factor of the PowerCab.
With mobile programming on the main (POM) becoming popular, a stationary power-pack form factor is not very easy to use except for the tiniest of layouts (4x8). A mobile handheld form factor works much better for POM.
If you have a need to do much engine hostling during an op session, then POM to do consisting is very handy. Or if you want to simulate the momentum effects of longer trains on-the-fly while operating, then POM again accommodates that. NCE even has thought ahead here, giving you a momentum button that you can configure so one button press automatically adds momentum to the selected loco lashup using POM.
The other notable difference between the two systems is the Zephyr allows you to run a straight DC loco lashup using special address 00, while the PowerCab does not.
Running a DC loco lashup on DCC is more of a stunt than anything useful, IMO. The DC loco lashup will run poorly, speed control is not very good, and the locos will emit various harmonic frequencies as you change loco speeds. With very nice fleet decoders now selling for under $12 in quantity, and given the poor performance of a straight DC loco lashup on DCC, I don't blame NCE for not including the feature. It's more hype than anything truly useful.
I don't know that the mobility of the PoweCab controller is a huge deal, since you can't unplug it. Now, if you go to a Smart Booster, or a ProCab, the advantage is quite clear. In a lot of respects the PowerCab design strikes me as inside out, I would not put the power into the handset/throttle, and then run it through the little wires (I know they say they are a special cable, and the outer wires are bigger, but even if bigger I don't think they are what they should be). Now, the ProCab answers all of those problems, and gets rid of the four throttle limit. So, if you expect to want more than four throttles I don't think it even makes sense to go PowerCab, I'd go straight to ProCab.
I've been thinking about this for a while, I used to think I preferred the Zephyr to the PowerCab, as I really didn't think much of NCE's manuals. But either they improved them, or they've grown on me.
So, if it was me, and it was between the PowerCab and the Zephyr, I'd go Zephyr, because I think the limitations on the PowerCab would bother me. On the other hand, if I know I am going to expand, I'd go straight to the ProCab, which seems to me to be done right. IT costs a bit more, but if you need more powe than the PowerCab can provide, and want more than four throttles, it ends up being more efficient.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Most People buying a DCC system for the first time are purchasing it for their home layouts that are most likely not much larger than a 4X8 or small bedroom layout. If your layout is much larger than that, then obviously you would be buying a full blown DCC system, So it only makes sense that you could get away with running no more than say 2 loco's or need more than 2 throttles.
Driline wrote: Most People buying a DCC system for the first time are purchasing it for their home layouts that are most likely not much larger than a 4X8 or small bedroom layout. If your layout is much larger than that, then obviously you would be buying a full blown DCC system, So it only makes sense that you could get away with running no more than say 2 loco's or need more than 2 throttles.
Assuming you've got the people to run them it doesn't take much space to be able to run four or more trains (thinking N scale here). A switcher in the yard, a local peddler, a through freight, a passenger train, and maybe a hostler, and you're at five. I've got four kids, and I am modelling in N scale, so I think that way! I'm in 12x14 (actually more like 14x16, since I'm maintaining access in some 'shared' areas), and can easily see five or six running without too much interference, if I ever get the thing finished, and have anything left over for rolling stock!
jfugate wrote:As to the Zephyr versus an NCE PowerCab, the most immediately obvious difference is the stationary power-pack form factor of the Zephyr versus the mobile handheld form factor of the PowerCab.
Bzzzt! Wrong answer. The two most obvious differences are initial abilities and expandability. As noted elsewhere in this thread, the Zephyr out of the box, besides having more amperage, is capable of 10 additional throttles vs. 2 out of the box for the PowerCab.
And if you add the SB3 to (actually in place of) your Powercab, you lose the PowerCab's original 1.7 amps and the programming track. No such tradeoffs when you add throttles or a booster to the Zephyr. And if the Zephyr's 10 (actually 12 if you count the jump throttles) slots aren't enough, and you do add a DCS* or DB*, you still can use the Zephyr as a 2.5 amp booster and throttle. Many folks have started their layout with a Zephyr and continue to use it in this manner for a yard or industrial switching district as the layout grows.
jfugate wrote: With mobile programming on the main (POM) becoming popular, a stationary power-pack form factor is not very easy to use except for the tiniest of layouts (4x8). A mobile handheld form factor works much better for POM.
Umm, we are talking about that 4x8, or at least we should be. Thinking that either the Zephyr or the PowerCab, by themselves, are suitable for a basement-sized layout is a sure way to get oneself in trouble.
jfugate wrote: If you have a need to do much engine hostling during an op session, then POM to do consisting is very handy. Or if you want to simulate the momentum effects of longer trains on-the-fly while operating, then POM again accommodates that. NCE even has thought ahead here, giving you a momentum button that you can configure so one button press automatically adds momentum to the selected loco lashup using POM.
Again, on the smaller-size layouts that both the Zephyr and the PowerCab are best suited for, I really don't think much hostling or momentum are going to come into play
jfugate wrote: The other notable difference between the two systems is the Zephyr allows you to run a straight DC loco lashup using special address 00, while the PowerCab does not.Running a DC loco lashup on DCC is more of a stunt than anything useful, IMO. The DC loco lashup will run poorly, speed control is not very good, and the locos will emit various harmonic frequencies as you change loco speeds. With very nice fleet decoders now selling for under $12 in quantity, and given the poor performance of a straight DC loco lashup on DCC, I don't blame NCE for not including the feature. It's more hype than anything truly useful.
You should go to the Digitrax Yahoo! list, where all the Zephyr owners hang out, and try to tell them that it's just hype!
You keep forgetting that the Zephyr (and the PowerCab) are geared more towards folks just starting out with DCC, or with smaller layouts, or both. Many of these folks are on budgets, and even $12 in quantity may be lot for them to spend at once.
And believe it or not, it's usually the higher-priced can motors that buzz the most, not the Athearn Blue-box locos these folks are also likely to have. In many, if not most cases, they run run just fine, and more than hype, it's a valuable tool for testing and/or breaking in a loco before you add a decoder.
Sorry Joe, but your arguments just don't fly.
Steve
Stevert wrote: jfugate wrote: As to the Zephyr versus an NCE PowerCab, the most immediately obvious difference is the stationary power-pack form factor of the Zephyr versus the mobile handheld form factor of the PowerCab. Bzzzt! Wrong answer. The two most obvious differences are initial abilities and expandability. As noted elsewhere in this thread, the Zephyr out of the box, besides having more amperage, is capable of 10 additional throttles vs. 2 out of the box for the PowerCab. And if you add the SB3 to (actually in place of) your Powercab, you lose the PowerCab's original 1.7 amps and the programming track. No such tradeoffs when you add throttles or a booster to the Zephyr. And if the Zephyr's 10 (actually 12 if you count the jump throttles) slots aren't enough, and you do add a DCS* or DB*, you still can use the Zephyr as a 2.5 amp booster and throttle. Many folks have started their layout with a Zephyr and continue to use it in this manner for a yard or industrial switching district as the layout grows. jfugate wrote: With mobile programming on the main (POM) becoming popular, a stationary power-pack form factor is not very easy to use except for the tiniest of layouts (4x8). A mobile handheld form factor works much better for POM. Umm, we are talking about that 4x8, or at least we should be. Thinking that either the Zephyr or the PowerCab, by themselves, are suitable for a basement-sized layout is a sure way to get oneself in trouble. jfugate wrote: If you have a need to do much engine hostling during an op session, then POM to do consisting is very handy. Or if you want to simulate the momentum effects of longer trains on-the-fly while operating, then POM again accommodates that. NCE even has thought ahead here, giving you a momentum button that you can configure so one button press automatically adds momentum to the selected loco lashup using POM. Again, on the smaller-size layouts that both the Zephyr and the PowerCab are best suited for, I really don't think much hostling or momentum are going to come into play jfugate wrote: The other notable difference between the two systems is the Zephyr allows you to run a straight DC loco lashup using special address 00, while the PowerCab does not.Running a DC loco lashup on DCC is more of a stunt than anything useful, IMO. The DC loco lashup will run poorly, speed control is not very good, and the locos will emit various harmonic frequencies as you change loco speeds. With very nice fleet decoders now selling for under $12 in quantity, and given the poor performance of a straight DC loco lashup on DCC, I don't blame NCE for not including the feature. It's more hype than anything truly useful. You should go to the Digitrax Yahoo! list, where all the Zephyr owners hang out, and try to tell them that it's just hype! You keep forgetting that the Zephyr (and the PowerCab) are geared more towards folks just starting out with DCC, or with smaller layouts, or both. Many of these folks are on budgets, and even $12 in quantity may be lot for them to spend at once. And believe it or not, it's usually the higher-priced can motors that buzz the most, not the Athearn Blue-box locos these folks are also likely to have. In many, if not most cases, they run run just fine, and more than hype, it's a valuable tool for testing and/or breaking in a loco before you add a decoder. Sorry Joe, but your arguments just don't fly. Steve
jfugate wrote: As to the Zephyr versus an NCE PowerCab, the most immediately obvious difference is the stationary power-pack form factor of the Zephyr versus the mobile handheld form factor of the PowerCab.
Thank you Stevie for your unbiased speech..... Zephyr Fanboi.
You can argue until the cows come in, but honestly both systems are great and won't disappoint.
I still think it comes down to which hand held throttle makes for a better ergonomic fit for the user. And to make that judgement each must be tested out. Like kicking the tires on a new car.
AND if you're talking STARTER systems, remember, the Digitrax does NOT include a walk around throttle, where the NCE power cab does albeit with a 7' cord. YES its still a walkaround throttle I don't care what you say about not being able to unplug it.