jfugate wrote: jbinkley60 wrote: Ted Marshall wrote: Funny, nobody mentioned the fact that the DT400 has two power knobs. This is what I like most about it. If somebody did mentioned it, I missed it.And you can go change turnouts without disrupting either locomotive under control.I can change turnouts now without disrupting my locos -- that's why I think it makes more sense to just put a switch on the fascia near the turnout instead of trying to control everything on the layout star trek style with DCC. Real engineers don't throw turnouts by pressing a button on their cab panel.
jbinkley60 wrote: Ted Marshall wrote: Funny, nobody mentioned the fact that the DT400 has two power knobs. This is what I like most about it. If somebody did mentioned it, I missed it.And you can go change turnouts without disrupting either locomotive under control.
Ted Marshall wrote: Funny, nobody mentioned the fact that the DT400 has two power knobs. This is what I like most about it. If somebody did mentioned it, I missed it.
Funny, nobody mentioned the fact that the DT400 has two power knobs. This is what I like most about it. If somebody did mentioned it, I missed it.
And you can go change turnouts without disrupting either locomotive under control.
I can change turnouts now without disrupting my locos -- that's why I think it makes more sense to just put a switch on the fascia near the turnout instead of trying to control everything on the layout star trek style with DCC.
Real engineers don't throw turnouts by pressing a button on their cab panel.
Real engineers ? How nice. I prefer using cascaded routes in my yard. I find it a lot easier to dial up a route and have 5-6 switch machines move in the right direction instead of flipping 5-6 switches on a panel to manuver a locomotive through my yard. Wasn't a main advantage of NCE supposedly ease of use ?
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
jwils1 wrote: jfugate wrote: Real engineers don't throw turnouts by pressing a button on their cab panel. Like real engineers walk around holding a TV remote pushing buttons to run their trains.....oops, I guess some do on remote locos.
jfugate wrote: Real engineers don't throw turnouts by pressing a button on their cab panel.
Like real engineers walk around holding a TV remote pushing buttons to run their trains.....oops, I guess some do on remote locos.
LOL.. and real engineers don't have to worry about giant fingers descending from the sky and knocking over telephone poles.
My DCC switches are my little conductor.. and I know how to push all his buttons! Because real engineers always have someone else, dispatcher or conductor, to throw the turnout.
The main down side is having to look at the throttle. I do plan to have facia controls as well so that the user can choose to do it either "star trek" style or "20,000 leagues" style.
Chris
Jerry! You mean to tell me that at UT4 can't control an accessory decoder??? You mean that Digitrax didn't include this vital control option in their latest throttle offering! So if I get a Zephyr system and then want to have true walk around control, including turnouts, I'll need to buy a DT400 instead of the cheaper UT4 like the other have suggested, or live with running back to where the Zephyr base is located to control a turnout. Well, maybe they can come out with an update that will add that some time in the future.
jktrains
Anyway, on a layout and operations like you run, I like the way you do it. But, for one who runs solo, it is sometimes very nice to be able to throw turnouts via DCC from your cab. It sure works well for me. DCC turnout control is a must on my layout.
But the point that I really want to make is for prospective Digitrax users. You need to know that the UT4 throttle does not allow control of accessory decoders, but the NCE small cabs do. I'm not sure that this has been previously mentioned and may be an important point in choosing a system.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
MisterBeasley wrote:From Wikipedia: "Zima is a lightly-carbonated alcopop beverage made by the Coors Brewing Company."
Ted M.
got trains?™
See my photos at: http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
doc manago wrote:The PowerCab does have some advantages. It is a tethered walkaround controller and it does control functions up through 28. I agree with that: the near future is 28 functions, and in my MTH K´4 I can listened all that sounds.
While it's nice to tout that a system can handle lots of functions beyond 12, I'm hard pressed to figure out what you really would do with that many functions in actual practice.
Here's a post from my web site around the whole question of "how many functions do you really, truly need?"
I would like to add a little to the Function Issue. My EasyDCC system is currently set to handle 8 functions, I have just set up a Tsunami decoder in one of my steam locos and have set up the functions as follows.F0 (for) Headlight & Dyno & firebox flickerF0 (rev) Backuplight & Dyno & Firebox flickerF1 BellF2 WhistleF3 Short WhistleF4 Dim Headlight ( not really needed on steam loco)F5 Water Fill of tenderF6 ??????F7 Blow downF8 Brakes and Screach (also brings loco to stop without turning knob)All other sounds are random.As you can see I have 2 function keys free F4 & F6 - why would I need 12 function keys?If you are in a train room with 15-20 sound locos on the move - you have no time to think of extra functions, never mind listening to them. Silence is Golden - It's great when you turn the power off after a session.Just my 2 cents worth.Gerry Hopkins, MMRGreat Northern Down Under
Having operated sound locos regularly in the op session on my HO Siskiyou Line, Gerry is absolutely right. Even 8 functions on a sound loco is boarding on overkill during an op session, much less 12 or heaven forbid 28! If you had to refer to the 26 letters of the alphabet by number, what number do you press to get an R? Or an M? Or a G? More than 5 or 6 functions and most people will be lost.
Whatever you get, I would make sure you have walk-around capability. Even on my 3'x5' test layout I really enjoy standing right where the locomotive is as it moves along or to study a piece of trackwork as I move the train across it. If you were to decide on the Zephyr, it would be a great investment to get a throttle with it. Not a problem with the larger digitrax systems or the NCE Powercab.
I currently have the DT400 throttle with a DB150 booster. Its a nice throttle and feels very comfortable to use. My main complaint is that the buttons can sometimes get jammed and not pop up. Easy to fix but sometimes I don't realize why I can't throw a switch right away until I see that the close button is jammed. I am also not totaly thrilled with the layout. Certain buttons like "exit" and "enter" should be by themselves.
For my little test layout I am experimenting with dcc control of turnouts. With my dt400 (and likely with others, can only speak to my system) I can control a locomotive with the throttle while in switch mode which makes punching in switches and closing or throwing them with the keypad quite easy.
I do like the idea of the NCE throttles being able to go forward and reverse just by turning them back.. I kind of wish I could select that as a mode for my dt400 when doing switching moves.
Finally.. if I was in charge of design.. all these throttles would have buttons on the side I can control with the hand holding it. I would put forward/reverse there, for instance, and perhaps the whislte or horn if I had sound. Sorry.. drifting off topic.. I will end there.
chris
Wow, what a thread. Our original poster, Mike, must have his head swimming by now. All this hype but no real resolution!
Too bad that he didn't open the door to the Lenz solution. Then we could have cut this thread short with the current ultimate answer to optimum DCC operation!! Yes, Lenz is truly the answer for so many DCC hopefuls.
Well, of course I'm kidding, but only a little bit. For some time now I've been studing, reading, examining and giving much thought to a sysem for a second layout that I'm considering. This could then become my future only layout at a new location. But that's another story. The point is, that if I had to make a decision today for a new system, I would just have to stay with Lenz. I really very much like Digitrax, NCE, EasyDCC and maybe even MRC.
But, today I just couldn't change. This could change tomorrow, because there are so many fine systems out there, and lots of changes coming. So, I kind of feel sorry for those having to make a choice today. It's not easy. But, DCC is so great, whatever they choose is going to be lots of fun.
fwright wrote: Another rational choice for the OP's stated requirements besides Digitrax Zephyr and NCE Power Cab is the MRC Prodigy Advance2 and the Prodigy Express. Slightly different feature sets, but considered and touted as extremely easy to use. Questions in my mind about the Prodigy line at this time are: 1) is there a upgrade path to fit a large layout; and 2) is the computer interface available yet or coming soon?just my thoughtsFred W
Another rational choice for the OP's stated requirements besides Digitrax Zephyr and NCE Power Cab is the MRC Prodigy Advance2 and the Prodigy Express. Slightly different feature sets, but considered and touted as extremely easy to use. Questions in my mind about the Prodigy line at this time are: 1) is there a upgrade path to fit a large layout; and 2) is the computer interface available yet or coming soon?
just my thoughts
Fred W
I don't know about an upgrade path but I use Prodigy Advanced on a large layout and it works fine.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Byron, I somewhat disagree with the comment
"Arguing about how many throttles these starter systems can support is a canard, IMHO. If one needs 4 or 5 or more throttles from the get-go, these starter systems aren't the right first investment in any case."
There is plenty of power in a 2.5A Z to run 7 or 8 sound locos. I do it all the time. I routinely run 4 throttles (the Z plus 3 more) and the system handles it without any problem at all. IMO there are many layouts running on 5A SEB's and Chiefs that could easily be run with a Z. If anything folks over spend on a higher level system when the so called starter system is more than capable of handling the job.
The fact that a 5 year old system still holds its own in the market says alot about how good the system was in the first place.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
The NCE systems are in wide use here in the Bay Area and successful. Personally, I think the Powercab form-factor is a lot friendlier than the power-pack-like Zephyr. I also personally like the NCE throttles a lot better in general than Digitrax. But that's my personal preference.
IMHO, the two biggest reasons to choose a particular DCC system are comfort with the throttles and the use of the systems at nearby layouts (for help/spares). Price is pretty much irrelevant in my view, because the prices of the systems are fairly close and most spend more on decoders and much, much more on locomotives, rolling stock, and the rest of the layout anyway.
Arguing about how many throttles these starter systems can support is a canard, IMHO. If one needs 4 or 5 or more throttles from the get-go, these starter systems aren't the right first investment in any case.
It's interesting to me from a marketing standpoint that Digitrax is still touting their MR innovation award from 2002 on the Zephyr page. Things have changed a bit in the last five years ...
ByronModel RR Blog
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
simon1966 wrote: Personally, I think the "club" argument is a bit bogus. The vast majority of folks are not in clubs. Plus, every single club or large layout I have been to are wireless. Neither the Z or the PC are terribly useful in a wireless environment.
Personally, I think the "club" argument is a bit bogus. The vast majority of folks are not in clubs. Plus, every single club or large layout I have been to are wireless. Neither the Z or the PC are terribly useful in a wireless environment.
On the other hand if you do belong to a club owning the same system as the club can make a huge difference not only in cost but in support.
I like my Digitrax (Super Chief Radio). I have a DT400, DT300 and DT100 throttles. I just use these throttles to run trains. I do all of my programing with DecoderPro.
If you are new to DCC I would get the Zepher, a USB LocoBuffer or MS-100 and then download DecoderPro. The MS-100 is a Digitrax product that uses a coputer RS232 serial prot to communicate with the Digitrax Loco Net. Most of the new computers do not have this type of port. (I have an old Pentium III with Windows 98 that I have moved to my layout and it works great with Decoder Pro.) If you need an MS-100, you will see them listed on Ebay from time-to-time, or you can still buy them from Digitrax. If you have a newer computer you will need a USB LocoBuffer.
If you have a home computer, get a Zepher, MS-100/LocoBuffer and download DecoderPro(free). Then just buy the Digitrax DT-4 throttles. Don't spend the bucks for a DT-400. With DecoderPro you can use your computer for one or more throttles, which justifies the investment in the LocoBuffer od Ms-100 which will be about the same cost as an inexpensive throttle.
JIM
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
Joe, you can split hairs on price till the cows come home. If you only want 1 throttle the Powercab is cheaper. If you want 2 throttles, they are about the same. If you want 3 or more, the Zephyr becomes cheaper. In my case I regularly have 4 in action and sometimes 5. The Z is significantly cheaper.
I'm with Mark Brunton on this, get what works for you at home.
Ted Marshall wrote:IMO one should find out what the local clubs, if any, use before deciding on system to buy. Chances are that if you join a club one day you'll need a compatable throttle. I've visited many clubs in Florida and Pennsylvania and places in between; the vast majority of them use Digitrax. If I buy an NCE system for my home layout, its throttle will be useless at the club.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
jfugate wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:In practice my club got the Digitrax system first and as members we each got either UTs or DT400s. Then when in came time to convert our systems at home, we all got Zephyrs.Okay, that's:Zephyr - $160 street priceUT4 - $65 street price$225 total, and take the UT4 to the club. PowerCab - $150 street priceTake it to the club. With the Digitrax approach you do have two throttles at home, which may be handy if you run multiple trains on a layout. But if all you have is a test track/workbench at home (cuz you run trains at the club), then the Zephyr approach costs you $75 more.The one nice thing about the PowerCab approach is you have one cab to learn, and then you take it everywhere with you and you can do whatever you need to do at the club or at home: make consists, whatever. For that priviledge with Digitrax, then you will need to spend $140 for the DT400 instead of the UT4, which makes that option now cost $150 more.Either approach gets you a system to use both at the club or at home, but if you don't have a layout at home, the PowerCab option is cheaper. If you do have a layout at home, it's more or less a wash either way because you'll want to spend at least another $70 with the PowerCab to get a second throttle, and probably another $78 to get a smart booster to bump the PowerCab up to 3 amps.
SpaceMouse wrote:In practice my club got the Digitrax system first and as members we each got either UTs or DT400s. Then when in came time to convert our systems at home, we all got Zephyrs.
Okay, that's:
Zephyr - $160 street price
UT4 - $65 street price
$225 total, and take the UT4 to the club.
PowerCab - $150 street price
Take it to the club.
With the Digitrax approach you do have two throttles at home, which may be handy if you run multiple trains on a layout. But if all you have is a test track/workbench at home (cuz you run trains at the club), then the Zephyr approach costs you $75 more.
The one nice thing about the PowerCab approach is you have one cab to learn, and then you take it everywhere with you and you can do whatever you need to do at the club or at home: make consists, whatever. For that priviledge with Digitrax, then you will need to spend $140 for the DT400 instead of the UT4, which makes that option now cost $150 more.
Either approach gets you a system to use both at the club or at home, but if you don't have a layout at home, the PowerCab option is cheaper. If you do have a layout at home, it's more or less a wash either way because you'll want to spend at least another $70 with the PowerCab to get a second throttle, and probably another $78 to get a smart booster to bump the PowerCab up to 3 amps.
Except that for all of us, we got the throttles to run at the club long before we bought the Zephyrs. And I have a son and daughter who have their own trains to run so I had a leg up. But that had nothing to do with why I got the Zephyr. I got the Zephry because that is what I know. If I ran at either layout I do ops on I might have an NCE or Prodigy.
The trick in making the tradeoff based on price is knowing what you want to end up with. For most of us with new layouts that can be a trick. We really don't know what os going to work operationally, how many throttles we want, how many trains we are really going to run, etc. We take our best guess, but.....
That leads to the biggest issue I have with the PowerCab, which is the limit of two throttles, or four with the Smart Booster. To go beyond that it appears that you end up obsoleting the Sart Booster (though I am not 100% sure on this, and the manuals I've read don't seem to address this), and hence spend some moey again. On the other hand, the PowerCab gives you a (sort of) walk around cab, wheras with the Zephyr you are going to buy one. One the other, other hand, the PowerCab has the power electronics in the handset, which works, but strikes me as a bad plan, at least I don't think it is what I'd choose to do. Again, if you get the Smart Booster, those power electronics that you paid for are put out to pasture, though it is kind of hidden, since you still use the cab. As far as runing trains, the hammerhead throttle strikes me as way too much, so I'd probably end up with another, smaller one, anyway.
So, to me, the whole process is a bit of a guessing game, with lots of confliction (my made up word for the evening) and compromise. Makes the ProCab system tempting to me, though, since I know I'll want at least 3 or 4 throttles, and more power than the PowerCab will deliver (that may not be true, as all if the guidlines are based on stall current, and my expectation would be that not every loco running will be stalled at the same time).
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
kbfcsme wrote:Over 10 years ago, our club was on the verge of buying Digitrax, but after "road testing" a NCE Powerhouse Pro, we switched brands. Years later came the bigger payoff. The layout had gotten huge, membership doubled, and we only had 6 throttles. Then NCE brought out the Powercab. An entry level system whose throttle could be double as a ProCab when used with a PHP system. Now the members who had bought a Powercab use them as Procabs at the club, ands the club has not had to buy additional cabs! Everybody wins
Over 10 years ago, our club was on the verge of buying Digitrax, but after "road testing" a NCE Powerhouse Pro, we switched brands. Years later came the bigger payoff. The layout had gotten huge, membership doubled, and we only had 6 throttles. Then NCE brought out the Powercab. An entry level system whose throttle could be double as a ProCab when used with a PHP system. Now the members who had bought a Powercab use them as Procabs at the club, ands the club has not had to buy additional cabs! Everybody wins
Now there's an interesting advantage of the NCE PowerCab I hadn't thought of.
If several modelers got together around a large home layout and convinced the owner to go with an NCE ProCab system, then the others could all get PowerCabs to use at home, and bring their cabs to the large home layout for op sessions.
Kinda hard to lug your Digitrax Zephyr cab to the op session ...
Oh my Ted, you musta missed us!
Over 10 years ago, our club was on the verge of buying Digitrax, but after "road testing" a NCE Powerhouse Pro, we switched brands. Years later came the bigger payoff. The layout had gotten huge, membership doubled, and we only had 6 throttles. Then NCE brought out the Powercab. An entry level system whose throttle could be double as a ProCab when used with a PHP system. Now the members who had bought a Powercab use them as Procabs at the club, ands the club has not had to buy additional cabs! Everybody wins!
But I do agree with the prior posters on one item. Get out there and road test as many systems as you can. Ask questions, and rely on facts to base your decisions. IF you get out to the Great Scale Train Show in Timonium on Feb 2nd & 3rd,2008, stop by and see us, but be careful, we're apt to put a throttle in your hand!
KarlB Four County Society of Model Engineers, see us at www.fcsme.org or the October issue of RMC !
Hello,
They are all good DCC systems. I have the same problem I do not know what to buy for my personal layout ZIMO, LENZ, DIGITRAX, NCE, MRC, etc....; in our club we use Zimo but this is a big layout.
If you are fairly new buy a simple system LENZ, MRC.
southernpacificgs4