simon1966 wrote:I would suggest that the Craftsman is not vanishing from the hobby. They may not be here on this forum, but there is a vibrant and thriving craftsman segment of this hobby. The recent narrow gauge convention, which features many craftsmen, had a greater attendance than the NMRA convention. There is a first annual Craftsman Structure Show coming up this fall. http://www.craftsmanstructureshow.com/ Registration has been high to the extent that they are no longer accepting registrations for the hands on clinic. As I have entered this new world I have been discovering that there are dozens of companies producing high quality craftsman style kits.I think the hobby will become more and more segmented and specialized. Cottage industries will serve these segments. To an extent this has largely happened already. Even the "Big Players" in DCC are small specialized companies.I don't have a clue what will happen with technology in the future, but I would suggest that at least for the next decade the craftsman segment of MRR will actually grow.
I would suggest that the Craftsman is not vanishing from the hobby. They may not be here on this forum, but there is a vibrant and thriving craftsman segment of this hobby. The recent narrow gauge convention, which features many craftsmen, had a greater attendance than the NMRA convention. There is a first annual Craftsman Structure Show coming up this fall. http://www.craftsmanstructureshow.com/ Registration has been high to the extent that they are no longer accepting registrations for the hands on clinic. As I have entered this new world I have been discovering that there are dozens of companies producing high quality craftsman style kits.
I think the hobby will become more and more segmented and specialized. Cottage industries will serve these segments. To an extent this has largely happened already. Even the "Big Players" in DCC are small specialized companies.
I don't have a clue what will happen with technology in the future, but I would suggest that at least for the next decade the craftsman segment of MRR will actually grow.
Yes, there are many more craftsman kits available than there was in the past. I also subscribe to Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette, Light Iron Digest, and Main Two Footers which feature alot of excellent scratchbuilding articles including tips for modeling obscure gauges and prototypes and have many ads for craftsman kits and cottage industries. I believe the hobby is already segmented and that this trend will continue in the future. Since I'm part of this realm I rely on many cottage industries and other specialized sources to fulfill my interests in narrow gauge modeling.
I know I gave the "silly" Terminator-parallel answer, but here's my serious response:
The future of model railroading is N scale.
Why? Is it because I'm biased since I'm in N scale? Maybe, but I was in HO for over 20 years before I converted to N for some compelling reasons.
Reasons why N scale is poised to become ever more popular:
1. Newer homes... Many have no basements. Rooms in new homes (even the McMansions that have 3000+ square feet) tend to be smaller even though there are more of them. Finding a spare bedroom greater than, say, 12x14 or 12x16 is difficult, and that's a limited space to model anything beyond shortline ops in HO or larger.
2. Modern railroading... We can debate all day about how many new model railroaders there will be 20 years from now, but it's a fair bet that many of them will be influenced by, and want to model, modern railroading. It's far easier to accomplish a prototype-length train of autoracks or stack packs in N than it is in HO on a home layout.
3. Greater choices... Many people might consider N if only their favorite prototype were offered. N scale product announcements have been fast and furious (although Model Railroader tends to ignore them). The number of new N scale products actually delivered, though smaller, is still impressive.
4. Better products... DCC is becoming far more popular in N scale, and we've even started seeing sound in N (although its qualities are hotly contested). New locos and cars are beautifully detailed and rival HO in accuracy.
I know that many people discount N simply because they "can't se it." But its small size actually lets you sit back and absorb a full scene with a train moving through it, as you might as a railfan some distance from trackside, allowing the scene to dominate the train.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Dave Vollmer wrote:I know I gave the "silly" Terminator-parallel answer, but here's my serious response:The future of model railroading is N scale.Why? Is it because I'm biased since I'm in N scale? Maybe, but I was in HO for over 20 years before I converted to N for some compelling reasons.Reasons why N scale is poised to become ever more popular:1. Newer homes... Many have no basements. Rooms in new homes (even the McMansions that have 3000+ square feet) tend to be smaller even though there are more of them. Finding a spare bedroom greater than, say, 12x14 or 12x16 is difficult, and that's a limited space to model anything beyond shortline ops in HO or larger.2. Modern railroading... We can debate all day about how many new model railroaders there will be 20 years from now, but it's a fair bet that many of them will be influenced by, and want to model, modern railroading. It's far easier to accomplish a prototype-length train of autoracks or stack packs in N than it is in HO on a home layout.3. Greater choices... Many people might consider N if only their favorite prototype were offered. N scale product announcements have been fast and furious (although Model Railroader tends to ignore them). The number of new N scale products actually delivered, though smaller, is still impressive.4. Better products... DCC is becoming far more popular in N scale, and we've even started seeing sound in N (although its qualities are hotly contested). New locos and cars are beautifully detailed and rival HO in accuracy.I know that many people discount N simply because they "can't se it." But its small size actually lets you sit back and absorb a full scene with a train moving through it, as you might as a railfan some distance from trackside, allowing the scene to dominate the train.
I realize that the quality of N scale has vastly improved in the past 20 years, however, not everyone has the desire to model contemporary or mainline railroads (not that there's anything wrong with those). N is great for broad curves, vast scenic effects, and mainline modeling in any space. The larger scales have many assets for modeling shortlines, backwoods-type railroads, logging, narrow gauge and other small unusual prototypes or those who enjoy super detailing. As for space, it's true you need alot of it to model today's mainlines in the larger scales but there are other types of railroads that can be modeled in much smaller spaces - even in Large Scale. Modeling around the perimeter of a room allows for broad curves and is a much more efficient use of space as the room can be used for other activities.
Although HO will probably remain the majority scale, N scale will grow in popularity due to the vast improvements that are constantly being made. O scale (especially On30) and Large Scale narrow gauge (indoors, from a model railroading aspect) will also see more growth.
That's why I said "many," not "all."
I don't model modern railroading either; I model July 1956. But it's hard to deny that kids born today will have less exposure, except via train museums and tourist lines, to railroading of yesteryear, while modern railroading is accessible everywhere.
My argument is that as we older modelers fade out, the new ones replacing us will probably be more likely to model modern ops. That's one of the many reasons I think N will actually overtake HO in the future.
I know not everyone born with modern trains models them. I was born in 1974 but I model transition era. But because I have only seen transition era railroading in books and old movies, it's not as easy to capture in model form as it would be to model what I remember, like Conrail and Amtrak.
on30francisco wrote: Although HO will probably remain the majority scale, N scale will grow in popularity due to the vast improvements that are constantly being made. O scale (especially On30) and Large Scale narrow gauge (indoors, from a model railroading aspect) will also see more growth.
A few friendly Points of Information, for all, are in order here.
Based on countless surveys conducted over the decades, the relative percentage of model railroaders devoted to N-gauge has not changed materially in more than 35 years. All the supposedly significant factors that would have favored its progressively increasing its percentage of the market, most of which having been claimed long ago, have played out already without any detectable change in N's status.
Railroading's Transition Era has been, by far, the most popular era to model for more than 50 years and, likewise, its percentage of the market has not altered markedly in all that time. Most modelers today never saw steam engines, E or F-units in operation, yet they model that era in their tens of thousands and the manufacturers pour out endless models from that period.
Modern prototype trains are all but invisible to today's society in nearly all parts of the county but particularly in urban areas, were the majority of today's individuals reside. Thus, they are even more unlikely to be a major influence of what folks model in the future. In fact, our hobby has become progressively about replicating an increasingly distant past and not the current or even relatively recent era! Modeling truly contemporary railroading is presently done by only a tiny fraction of hobbyists.
On21/2 has and always will have a very narrow appeal among hobbyists by virtue of its prototypical roads and industrial applications being very limited in scope relative to other mainline roads and their diversity of purpose and operations. There has always been an On21/2 or On3 faction in the hobby but it was far less obvious because its participants had to model mainly with brass locos and rollingstock. Now its much cheaper to do so. However, there would be little reason to believe these scales will become any major segment of the hobby in the future since their appeal/application is much too narrow.
In a similar fashion, classic railroad "operations" has a rather limited appeal amongst hobbyists, in spite of what you may read in MR (for nearly 60 years the great "pusher" of the operations idea). No poll or survey has ever indicated that more than about 30% of hobbyist participate in that particular aspect of model railroading and most surveys suggest a percentage closer 20%, even less for the car card/timetable folks. For the great majority of hobbyists, model railroading is about simply running their trains as they please, not shuttling cars back and forth according to little cards, nor running fast freights against fast clocks and timetables.
Viable predictions of the future of the hobby (or anything else) need to be based on facts, not just wild speculation and wishes.
CNJ831
Dave
N Scale rules
A close read of your post reveals the old N Mantra. "With all the progress in N over the past 10 years, we are winning on all fronts." It is really a tired argument. Indeed, N scale has finally arrived at some level of acceptabilty. However one cannot discount that HO, O and the other scales have in themselves achieved remarkable improvements in quality, reliability, capability and progress that is nothing less than spectacular. The bar is constantly moving and the old saying n-1 will likely always be true.
I've seen John Widmar's truly amazing N scale railroad. Magnificent. It shows what can be done in 1/2 of a small garage over 20 years or so. Truly a work of art.
But let us fast forward to the Train Shows of today. I go to examine and watch the display railroads. I have yet to see an N scale railroad (John Widmar's exception) that was memorable. Ratio is about 3 to 1 HO over N. The N scale fellows are typically putzing around trying to make it work, The HO guys are explaining to the crowd how to join their club or how they built something, or what something is.
I can name 5 or 6 very high quality club layouts in Colorado, the Scottish Highland club (not sure of their name) is simply amazing. The Greeley club, WOW, so much neat stuff I just cannot take it all in and I've seen it 4 or 5 times. And there are three others that just impress the heck out of me each time I see them. Oh, the N Scale layout at Caboose Hobbies is way cool too. But it is not my pick as 'best' of the 6 or 7 HI Q layouts there.
Rationalize it however you will, but N Scale does not, from my view, dominate the healthy Model Railroad community in Colorado. No way.
Home Size A modeler will always overcome space limitations one way or another. While I have continiously expanded my own railroad, one could argue, rather convincingly that I'd be better off with a small and completed railroad. I'm pretty sure that MOST single family homes in the Denver area have basements. Even many townhomes have basements. But I grew up in Oklahoma where there were few, if any basements. I got the room and am not going to apologize for it. I'm thankful!
Eras
MTH is moving into HO. Interesting, what locomotives have they chosen? STEAM. And they are announcing more to come. Let us cut to the chase here. To me, even a tiny 0-4-0 dockside is more antimated and interesting to watch than any Diesel. Steam is fun and interesting to watch, listen to, operate and tinker with. Nothing wrong with Diesel, but steam engines are inately more interesting. IMHO, this is the reason the transition era dominates and will continue to dominate. Railroads like Durango-Silverton and the Straussburg in PA keep the steam image clearly centered in our heads.
More choices?
Just exactly when did N overtake all other scales in product choice? Will it someday? Who knows?
Better Products?
Better than the older N scale, certainly. But better than the larger scales, exactly when did that happen? Oh, you said they rival HO in accuracy. Maybe, but I don't think so.
So far, the only place I've seen where N scale rules is on Trainboard.
SO, is the future of Model Railroading to be N Scale? I don't know. But there is one fact that is inescapable, sometime between age 40 an 50 most people's eyesight begins to deteriorate.
Dave, I do very much appreciate your loyalty, skill and accomplishments, please I mean nothing personal.
High regards,
Joe
Just my 2 cents, never worth more!
CNJ831 wrote:A few friendly Points of Information, for all, are in order here....On21/2 has and always will have a very narrow appeal among hobbyists by virtue of its prototypical roads and industrial applications being very limited in scope relative to other mainline roads and their diversity of purpose and operations...
A few friendly Points of Information, for all, are in order here....On21/2 has and always will have a very narrow appeal among hobbyists by virtue of its prototypical roads and industrial applications being very limited in scope relative to other mainline roads and their diversity of purpose and operations...
marknewton wrote: CNJ831 wrote:A few friendly Points of Information, for all, are in order here....On21/2 has and always will have a very narrow appeal among hobbyists by virtue of its prototypical roads and industrial applications being very limited in scope relative to other mainline roads and their diversity of purpose and operations...Hmm, another friendly point of information and a comment is warranted here. Prototype 30" railways of all types and sizes, up to and including mainline systems, were common everywhere in the world except North America. When you make statements like this, you display a very parochial view of modelling. On30 is becoming very popular here in Australia because we have well-known prototypes to inspire modellers.Cheers,Mark.
My thoughts on this subject.
I my self am not sure what the feature holds.
I model in N-scale and have done so since 1971 or so, I did have an interest in HO while in my teens but lost interest and got into auto sports.
When it comes to which scale is best, there is no one better than the other in my opinion as they are all great.
When attending shows I look at all clubs / scales with operating layouts and talk with all.
As I said my scale is "N" not because of space limitations but because I like the challenge it (as well as the others) offer, my time frame is the transition era so that I can run steam as well as diesel locos.
I would venture to guess that as younger people get involved in the hobby they will model what they are familiar with in their area, locos and rolling stock that they see, it is only natural and in the end there will be a lack of steam as the younger people of the later decades will not even know what a steam loco is because they did not have an opportunity to see one in action as most of us have.
I follow several forums and see that the average age is about 40 to 55 years with a few of us under and over that age group, and we can remember or have rode on excursion trains that were pulled by a steam loco.
Actually, Dave almost has it right. Only problem is, he's looking at the wrong prototype country! (How good is your Nihon-go, Dave?)
Joe-Daddy got it right when he observed that steam (except for the Jawn Henry and the C&O turbine disasters) is visually more interesting than diesel - churning siderods will always out-draw static truck frames. (The boiler side of a Shay is bo-o-oring!)
If people really model what they see, why aren't there more modelers of present-day light rail and rapid transit operations? MisterBeasley is definitely a minority player, albiet an inspiring one.
Yes, as a percentage of a wide and diverse total, serious operators are almost certainly a minority. So are serious poker players. Most people settle for penny-ante with family and friends. A few get serious in illegal games, or legally join the World Poker Challenge, and then end up running a table at a Las Vegas casino for pay, benefits and an eventual pension. That 20% (or less, if you throw in rigid adherence to a timetable) who operate their model railroads are the ones who keep the hobby visible and interesting, to themselves and to others. I, personally, prefer being on the cutting edge to being buried in the mass of the blade.
I suspect that the total number of model railroaders will remain relatively static, which means a decline as a percentage of a growing population. Unlike others, I don't see that as a potential disaster. The buying power of model railroaders will increase even if the body count holds steady. A lot of the indicators used to deduce a decline in numbers are much more indicative of a shift in sources for information and products as more of us (myself included) rely more on electronic sources and less on brick-and-mortar stores and hardcopy publishers.
So, what does the future hold? Not much different from the present as far as serious modeling is concerned. Fewer toy trains at Christmas, but just as many youngsters "infected" by parents, grandparents and adult neighbors. A very slow shift toward the latest and greatest (anyone giving odds about who will first offer a genset loco?) and a continued interest in superdetailed modeling of prototypes the modeler has never seen.
It could be a LOT worse!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - for the forseeable future)
marknewton wrote: CNJ831 wrote: A few friendly Points of Information, for all, are in order here....On21/2 has and always will have a very narrow appeal among hobbyists by virtue of its prototypical roads and industrial applications being very limited in scope relative to other mainline roads and their diversity of purpose and operations...Hmm, another friendly point of information and a comment is warranted here. Prototype 30" railways of all types and sizes, up to and including mainline systems, were common everywhere in the world except North America. When you make statements like this, you display a very parochial view of modelling. On30 is becoming very popular here in Australia because we have well-known prototypes to inspire modellers.Cheers,Mark.
CNJ831 wrote: A few friendly Points of Information, for all, are in order here....On21/2 has and always will have a very narrow appeal among hobbyists by virtue of its prototypical roads and industrial applications being very limited in scope relative to other mainline roads and their diversity of purpose and operations...
Parochial view or not, Mark, the members of this forum are at least 98% North American modelers and as such, one would have to assume that the discussion at hand has been in regard to what will or may happen in the hobby's future here...a portion of the globe where 24", 30", even 36" prototypes, were always in extremely limited and very specific-use operations at anytime during the past three-quarters of a century. While many of us are well aware that the narrower gauges were/are common throughout the rest of the world, as one can see by the content of these posts, modeling of them, or addressing the prototype gauges of European, Asian, Australian, et al. rail operations, were never even as much as an after thought consideration concerning where the modeling hobby might be going. No offense meant but that is the fact. I expect that the hobby's future will unfold in a very different manner overseas, where trains are much more the norm.
joe-daddy wrote:But let us fast forward to the Train Shows of today. I go to examine and watch the display railroads. I have yet to see an N scale railroad (John Widmar's exception) that was memorable. Ratio is about 3 to 1 HO over N. The N scale fellows are typically putzing around trying to make it work, The HO guys are explaining to the crowd how to join their club or how they built something, or what something is.
That's possibly becaue you never saw my layout at a show. If you're in Raleigh, NC, first weekend in November, you're welcome to stop by and see an N scale layout that works (mine).
joe-daddy wrote:More choices?Just exactly when did N overtake all other scales in product choice? Will it someday? Who knows? Better Products? Better than the older N scale, certainly. But better than the larger scales, exactly when did that happen? Oh, you said they rival HO in accuracy. Maybe, but I don't think so.
I didn't mean either; you misinterpreted. I meant that N scale choices are improving (more choices over previous N scale) and that the product quality of N is improving.
Again, if you don't want to believe N scale can rival HO in accuracy, you're welcome to visit my layout and its PRR-specific prototype equipment, much of which I built myself.
As for the basement argument, as a US Air Force officer who's been stationed all over the country (and world) I can say you'd be shocked at how many parts of the country don't have basements as standard. Here in central North Carolina my realtor said it's less than 10%. In Florida, obviously, none of the houses had basements.
BTW, the Strasburg Rail Road in PA is a few miles from my family's ancestral home, and the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania across the street (not affiliated with the SRR) is why I model PRR in the steam era.
I agree that I may be off in my prediction regarding the appeal of modern versus transition era, but I'm sensing your bias against N is leading you to make some incorrect assumptions regarding what can and is being done in N, and falls, whether you meant it to or not, as a tacit dig at my work.
N scale has arrived at more than some level of acceptibility. I invite you to view my video layout tour:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veEvKHFGd5s
I think that the N vs HO argument is based on what prototype and era one wants to model. I don't think that I will ever see the range of steam engines that is available in HO being made for the N gauge Market. I certainly never expect to see the R3, L1, I-4 and I-5 steamers native to the New Haven. And definitely not the EF-1, EF-3, EP-2 or EP-3 box cab electrics. We New Haven modelers have had enough of a fight to get them produced in HO gauge. For a New Haven modeler, N Gauge is a tough nut to crack, but I have friends doing it with what is available, but not to the extent that I can in HO. I recently sent an ABBA lashup of N Alco F units to one of them who had helped me so much with my research.
If you want to model so called modern era railroading, free lance or prototype, with long trains and multi diesel unit lashups then N probably is a better option. But personally, I would last about an hour watching a 60 car double stack pulled by 6 diesels go around and around. No station stops, no switching, no RAILROADING.
Not for me.
HO dominated, overpriced and boring as with individule creativity snuffed out. Kinda like MR the magazine these past ten years or so. Long live fringe scale modeling and model railroading in general in spite of the aformentioned personal opinions.
Wel,, I don't know about N scale, but I know that I agree, modern Class 1 railroading has it's downfalls, which is why I model a shortline, which has an emphasis on switching and slow(er) train speeds.
I remember a few months ago in the spring, I was outside at the Steaming Tender restraunt, (located at the Palmer, MA diamond) watching a NECR GP38 (no Dash 2!) a leased CN GP40-2W, and an unknown BN loco switching the yard, hearing the slack crashing, watching the railroaders throwin switches, and trying to figure out what they were doing.
For me, that's MUCH cooler than a pair of SD70s blasting past with a stack train, sure, that's exciting to see it approaching, and feeling the ground shake as the units pass, but once 10 or so cars go past, it just gets..well....kinda boring!
I don't feel like reading through all four pages of responses so I might be redundant but I think the next big thing will be on board rechargable power. I am amazed had how much smaller and stronger batteries have become and if this trend continues, it might not be long before they are small enough and strong enough to run an HO or N scale loco for an entire operating session before needing recharging. Maybe our engine houses will resemble the golf cart barn with all our engines wired up to the recharger between sessions.
Smaller and more powerful electronic components will continue to create possiblities in all phases of the hobby. Decoder controlled couplers is one idea I read and I think that is feasible. A lot can be done scenically with lighting components and I think we are already seeing that.
One area I don't expect to see great advances in is animation of non-railroading items. With few exceptions, anything that moves on a model railroad other than the trains looks toylike and I don't expect that to change. I hope somebody proves me wrong.
Dave Vollmer wrote:I agree that I may be off in my prediction regarding the appeal of modern versus transition era, but I'm sensing your bias against N is leading you to make some incorrect assumptions regarding what can and is being done in N, and falls, whether you meant it to or not, as a tacit dig at my work.
Dave, I don't have a bias against N Scale, but I do try to report accurately what I see, N SCale does not dominate, nor IMHO, do they show all that well at the numerous train shows in Colorado, last year's N Scale convention excepted.
I know what CAN be done in the scale, as I said, Widmar's empire is fantastic.
Thanks for sending the links to your railroad videos, I've seen them in the past, nice work!
When the majority of the layouts in shows and the N Scale area of the hobby shop dominate the floor space, I'll agree with your speculation about the potential domination of N. I am confident, however that there will be plenty of residual HO stuff to keep me busy the remainder of my life.
I rather liked your terminator prediction, I thought it more likely.
West Coast S wrote:HO dominated, overpriced and boring as with individule creativity snuffed out. Kinda like MR the magazine these past ten years or so. Long live fringe scale modeling and model railroading in general in spite of the aformentioned personal opinions. Dave
For the most part, ditto!
Although the quality of the common products available today is excellent, I have always been attracted to the fringe scales and gauges because not many supplies are available commercially and I like doing something very different than the majority. Since the availability of commercial supplies for us modelers on the fringe is limited, we have to be more inventive and creative by finding alternate sources for our supplies or modifying the supplies that are available. On the positive side, we don't have to rely so much on some of the high-priced dedicated modeling supplies, have the latest gadgets, and can use other less costly means to achieve our goals. On the other hand, a lot of the improvements and innovations from other scales, namely HO, will continue to allow us in the minoroty scales to achieve our modeling goals easily and inexpensively (eg. On30 vs On3).
West Coast S wrote:HO dominated, overpriced and boring as with individule creativity snuffed out. Kinda like MR the magazine these past ten years or so. snipDave
HO dominated, overpriced and boring as with individule creativity snuffed out. Kinda like MR the magazine these past ten years or so. snip
Huh? What are you talking about? IMHO, the only thing really overpriced these days is Brass, and when one looks at the time involved, probably worth it.
A Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 is an example of what I am talking about. For aboutr $160, you get a sound equipped, smooth, reliable little puffer belly that just works.
I just don't see your point at all. And MR has no equal in my opine, what is the alternative and benchmark? Certainly not MRC???
My 2 cents, the bewilderment is free. . .
CNJ831 wrote:No offense meant but that is the fact. I expect that the hobby's future will unfold in a very different manner overseas, where trains are much more the norm.CNJ831
No offense meant but that is the fact. I expect that the hobby's future will unfold in a very different manner overseas, where trains are much more the norm.
Dave Vollmer wrote: As for the basement argument, as a US Air Force officer who's been stationed all over the country (and world) I can say you'd be shocked at how many parts of the country don't have basements as standard. Here in central North Carolina my realtor said it's less than 10%. In Florida, obviously, none of the houses had basements.
Basement-less houses must be a beast --- not only for lack of layout space, but what the hell do you do for storage? Heating systems? Laundry? All my life I've never had any of those anywhere but in a basement!!
Tom Curtin wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote: As for the basement argument, as a US Air Force officer who's been stationed all over the country (and world) I can say you'd be shocked at how many parts of the country don't have basements as standard. Here in central North Carolina my realtor said it's less than 10%. In Florida, obviously, none of the houses had basements.I guess I am shocked to hear the basement-less houses are creeping north. Here in the NY metro area the only slab construction I have experienced are 1)condominiums; and 2) homes in some communities around the Jersey shore, where the terrain is so close to sea level that excavating a basement would take you well below the water table.Basement-less houses must be a beast --- not only for lack of layout space, but what the hell do you do for storage? Heating systems? Laundry? All my life I've never had any of those anywhere but in a basement!!
"we've always done it that way," is the worst possible excuse for ANYTHING that could be done more efficiently!
Of the houses I have owned since departing the loving arms of the USAF, all but one were on slabs. The other had a crawlspace - and the only people who ever crawled into it were building inspectors. Storage was handled in ample closets. Those houses which had air handlers inside the frame had to devote space enough for a linen closet to housing them (my present house has its HVAC box mounted on the roof.) As for laundry, one house had it in a utility room next to the kitchen, one had it in a utility room close to the bedrooms and this one has it in a large closet adjacent to the master bedroom - no running up and down stairs with baskets!
Two of the houses had attached garages which became designated layout space. The other, without a garage, had enough room in the finished attic for more layout than I wanted to build at the time. IMHO, if layout space is a priority, the house-shopper will tell the realtor and it will be provided. (If my present house hadn't had a double garage I wouldn't have bid on it.)
What does all this have to do with the future of model railroading? Simply, the future may see things moving in unfamiliar directions - but it is very unlikely to see things come to a crashing stop.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Dave Vollmer wrote: snipAs for the basement argument, as a US Air Force officer who's been stationed all over the country (and world) I can say you'd be shocked at how many parts of the country don't have basements as standard. snip
Dave,
The basement comments that followed must be amusing to our international modeling brothers (& sisters). Now I'm not claiming to be much of a world traveler, but I do get out of the basement occassionally, having been to Europe several times, and to Japan. The one real difference I observed between here in the USA and there is the absence of single family homes, or anything that even resembles a single family house. I drove from southern France to Frankfurt through Switzerland and I don't remember seing any and I was looking for them. Occassionally I'd see a farm that 'could' be a single family house, but the overwhelming majority were Multi-family and two family were rare in many places as well.
Kinda makes me wonder if our discussion about basements sound a bit silly to our friends overseas. Seems to me that we yanks are spoiled to our space. Even though space is an issue in Europe, we see a strong HO presence and Mr. Lenz is diligently working to excite the O gauge community. I've a hunch that model railroading is everybit as healthy in Europe as it is in the US, in fact while in Brussels last December, we visited a really neat bookstore that was also a resturant and they had a really large and quite sophisticated Marklin (looked like Marklin to me, sorry if it is something else) that had buttons to allow it to run depending upon which one was pushed by the public. What was so unique about this railroad was that it was under the FLOOR, covered by a very think clear plastic flooring.
Interesting, that Thomas was born and raised in Europe, space limitations and all. I wonder if the World's Greatest Hobby marketing plan has been as successful as Thomas in bring new modelers into the fold?
tomikawaTT wrote: "we've always done it that way," is the worst possible excuse for ANYTHING that could be done more efficiently!
Climate issues: Here we need a full-blown central heating system which today in new construction is often integrated with an air conditioning system. Nothing says it has to go in the basement; but anywhere else in the house it will eat up living space. RE garage layouts, I guess some do get built in this part of the country; but the garage is not pleasantly usable for recreational purposes in the winter unless it's heated. I remember there were houses built with heated garages when I was a kid in the 50s, but that construction went the way of the cheap energy of that era. And as I think of it, we have the opposite problem in the summer --- the garage is too damned hot!.
"Culture:" In the northeast --- and I think in the middle Atlantic states too --- the most popular and sought after home design is what real estate parlance has universally dubbed the "Colonial" --- two stories of living space, with living area dowstairs and bedrooms up; and a gabled roof that (as long as the roof is built at a high enough angle) gives you a usable attic. Layouts get built in those too. I owned (and dearly loved) such a house for 27 years, and I will tell you that you have basically exactly the same climate control problem in the attic as in the garage!
Now all that said, the vast majority of houses in the northeast do have basements. I have seen houses with only a crawl space, or built on a slab; but here, in this part of the country that is regarded as second-rate building. I fully realize the norms are all different in the sunbelt.
In New York and Pennsylvania, where I spent my childhood, basements were standard. Our house had a fine finished basement that served as a family room, including a 10'x20' space my father set aside for the layout he never built.
Here in the Raleigh, NC area, the few basements that exist are typically the walk-out kind (i.e., the house is built on a slope). Why? Geology. Central North Carolina sits on what's called the "clay cap." Our soil is solid clay, hard as cement. Simply digging a post hole or in the garden, once you get below the few inches of top soil, is a painful proposition.
To anyone who absolutely, positively thinks you have to have a basement, please obtain and read a copy of Your Engineered House by Rex Roberts. (By his definition, if you can walk out, it isn't a basement.)
One of my garages was in South Dakota. My present one is in Southern Nevada. Neither is particularly climate controlled, but both are useable.
A lovely source of ample layout space, quite inexpensive in most places, is a shipping container (intermodal variety.) Once placed on a gravel bed, epoxy painted and bermed, it can add visual interest to a back yard (a small hill where there wasn't any) and provide more space than most model railroaders can use efficiently.
I'm joining this discussion a bit late, but here's my prediction for a layout of the future:
The layout itself won't be designed primarily to be viewed by the naked eye (although that could remain an option) but rather by TV and/or virtual reality. A typical layout would be a trough, perhaps 1'-2' wide (depending on they layout's scale) encircling the layout room. It could be built at floor level, or near the ceiling. The track essentially runs down the middle of the trough, with backdrops and scenery on both sides.
Running the train will be by using controls mimicking a real engine, only with a TV monitor replacing the view ahead. Small micro-TV's will be in the model engines, with the signal perhaps mixed with a Simulator program to make it look like the view is from the interior of a real cab, with the TV signal showing the layout visible only thru the windows. (You could substitute the view from a caboose with a similar micro-TV so you could look out over the train from the cupola, or from the interior or observation platform of a passenger car.)
You operate the train like a real one, and what you see on the monitor is pretty much what you'd see from a real engine. Blue- or Green-screen technology would allow your sky backdrops to be animated, so clouds actually move, rain clouds appear, and you can connect that up with your lighting to simulate the progress of the sun in the sky.
Another viewing option would be micro-cameras mounted at prime viewing spots beside the track or in a signal tower. The view would be shown to the viewer via a TV monitor, but you could also have a helmet that allows for "surround" virtual reality viewing - and is also tied into a servo that moves the TV camera around as you move your head around. (This could be used for the cab and other viewers / operators too.)
There would be much more animation than today...scale people wave as the train goes by, automobiles roll along roads, etc. along with sounds coming from small speakers under the layout, or just piped into headphones as part of the virtual reality system. The train goes by a farm, the sounds of cows mooing becomes louder, then softer after you pass.
I agree with loathar in the hope the prices for locomotives will get more afforable. The determining factor on this seems to be the addition od DCC and sound. Some builders have already found out that not everybody wants sound or DCC and are offering options. We need more of this from the rest of the manufacturers. We also need to get these same manufacturers to release the product on the day they say it's going to be available, or notify the hobbyist of the delay. I recently received a catalog from a brand name company that offered a locomotive currently for sale that was discontinued in February of 2005 thus unavailable. I think I got a little off the topic here, but again the point is accuracy from the supplier for rolling stock, locomotives and buildings.
Another thing I see as I read articles in MR and others, is the ease of having someone else build your railroad for you. That's okay if it's used as perhaps a display for a business, but don't claim the credit. In my opinion, pre assembled buildings are taking away the basic skills of assembly, planning and imagination (ever try to paint the window frames a different colour on a pre-built?). I think some of the hobby groups are so determined to get new people that they entice them with anything--i.e. pre-built layouts, sorta like the "plug and play" games. This is not what the hobby is about. It has taken me over 25 years to get my railroad to a point where I am semi-satisfied, and it has been 25 plus years of my sweat, not anybody elses. It gives me a great feeling of accomplishment when a visitor says "WOW" and I can say, "thank you-I did it myself".
We might have to go back to basics and build a lot more ourselves due to the collapse of the Global Economy when oil and coal run out and/or their use becomes unacceptable due to environmental damage.
Mark in Melbourne