marknewton wrote: CNJ831 wrote: A few friendly Points of Information, for all, are in order here....On21/2 has and always will have a very narrow appeal among hobbyists by virtue of its prototypical roads and industrial applications being very limited in scope relative to other mainline roads and their diversity of purpose and operations...Hmm, another friendly point of information and a comment is warranted here. Prototype 30" railways of all types and sizes, up to and including mainline systems, were common everywhere in the world except North America. When you make statements like this, you display a very parochial view of modelling. On30 is becoming very popular here in Australia because we have well-known prototypes to inspire modellers.Cheers,Mark.
CNJ831 wrote: A few friendly Points of Information, for all, are in order here....On21/2 has and always will have a very narrow appeal among hobbyists by virtue of its prototypical roads and industrial applications being very limited in scope relative to other mainline roads and their diversity of purpose and operations...
A few friendly Points of Information, for all, are in order here....On21/2 has and always will have a very narrow appeal among hobbyists by virtue of its prototypical roads and industrial applications being very limited in scope relative to other mainline roads and their diversity of purpose and operations...
Parochial view or not, Mark, the members of this forum are at least 98% North American modelers and as such, one would have to assume that the discussion at hand has been in regard to what will or may happen in the hobby's future here...a portion of the globe where 24", 30", even 36" prototypes, were always in extremely limited and very specific-use operations at anytime during the past three-quarters of a century. While many of us are well aware that the narrower gauges were/are common throughout the rest of the world, as one can see by the content of these posts, modeling of them, or addressing the prototype gauges of European, Asian, Australian, et al. rail operations, were never even as much as an after thought consideration concerning where the modeling hobby might be going. No offense meant but that is the fact. I expect that the hobby's future will unfold in a very different manner overseas, where trains are much more the norm.
CNJ831
Actually, Dave almost has it right. Only problem is, he's looking at the wrong prototype country! (How good is your Nihon-go, Dave?)
Joe-Daddy got it right when he observed that steam (except for the Jawn Henry and the C&O turbine disasters) is visually more interesting than diesel - churning siderods will always out-draw static truck frames. (The boiler side of a Shay is bo-o-oring!)
If people really model what they see, why aren't there more modelers of present-day light rail and rapid transit operations? MisterBeasley is definitely a minority player, albiet an inspiring one.
Yes, as a percentage of a wide and diverse total, serious operators are almost certainly a minority. So are serious poker players. Most people settle for penny-ante with family and friends. A few get serious in illegal games, or legally join the World Poker Challenge, and then end up running a table at a Las Vegas casino for pay, benefits and an eventual pension. That 20% (or less, if you throw in rigid adherence to a timetable) who operate their model railroads are the ones who keep the hobby visible and interesting, to themselves and to others. I, personally, prefer being on the cutting edge to being buried in the mass of the blade.
I suspect that the total number of model railroaders will remain relatively static, which means a decline as a percentage of a growing population. Unlike others, I don't see that as a potential disaster. The buying power of model railroaders will increase even if the body count holds steady. A lot of the indicators used to deduce a decline in numbers are much more indicative of a shift in sources for information and products as more of us (myself included) rely more on electronic sources and less on brick-and-mortar stores and hardcopy publishers.
So, what does the future hold? Not much different from the present as far as serious modeling is concerned. Fewer toy trains at Christmas, but just as many youngsters "infected" by parents, grandparents and adult neighbors. A very slow shift toward the latest and greatest (anyone giving odds about who will first offer a genset loco?) and a continued interest in superdetailed modeling of prototypes the modeler has never seen.
It could be a LOT worse!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - for the forseeable future)
My thoughts on this subject.
I my self am not sure what the feature holds.
I model in N-scale and have done so since 1971 or so, I did have an interest in HO while in my teens but lost interest and got into auto sports.
When it comes to which scale is best, there is no one better than the other in my opinion as they are all great.
When attending shows I look at all clubs / scales with operating layouts and talk with all.
As I said my scale is "N" not because of space limitations but because I like the challenge it (as well as the others) offer, my time frame is the transition era so that I can run steam as well as diesel locos.
I would venture to guess that as younger people get involved in the hobby they will model what they are familiar with in their area, locos and rolling stock that they see, it is only natural and in the end there will be a lack of steam as the younger people of the later decades will not even know what a steam loco is because they did not have an opportunity to see one in action as most of us have.
I follow several forums and see that the average age is about 40 to 55 years with a few of us under and over that age group, and we can remember or have rode on excursion trains that were pulled by a steam loco.
marknewton wrote: CNJ831 wrote:A few friendly Points of Information, for all, are in order here....On21/2 has and always will have a very narrow appeal among hobbyists by virtue of its prototypical roads and industrial applications being very limited in scope relative to other mainline roads and their diversity of purpose and operations...Hmm, another friendly point of information and a comment is warranted here. Prototype 30" railways of all types and sizes, up to and including mainline systems, were common everywhere in the world except North America. When you make statements like this, you display a very parochial view of modelling. On30 is becoming very popular here in Australia because we have well-known prototypes to inspire modellers.Cheers,Mark.
CNJ831 wrote:A few friendly Points of Information, for all, are in order here....On21/2 has and always will have a very narrow appeal among hobbyists by virtue of its prototypical roads and industrial applications being very limited in scope relative to other mainline roads and their diversity of purpose and operations...
Dave Vollmer wrote:I know I gave the "silly" Terminator-parallel answer, but here's my serious response:The future of model railroading is N scale.Why? Is it because I'm biased since I'm in N scale? Maybe, but I was in HO for over 20 years before I converted to N for some compelling reasons.Reasons why N scale is poised to become ever more popular:1. Newer homes... Many have no basements. Rooms in new homes (even the McMansions that have 3000+ square feet) tend to be smaller even though there are more of them. Finding a spare bedroom greater than, say, 12x14 or 12x16 is difficult, and that's a limited space to model anything beyond shortline ops in HO or larger.2. Modern railroading... We can debate all day about how many new model railroaders there will be 20 years from now, but it's a fair bet that many of them will be influenced by, and want to model, modern railroading. It's far easier to accomplish a prototype-length train of autoracks or stack packs in N than it is in HO on a home layout.3. Greater choices... Many people might consider N if only their favorite prototype were offered. N scale product announcements have been fast and furious (although Model Railroader tends to ignore them). The number of new N scale products actually delivered, though smaller, is still impressive.4. Better products... DCC is becoming far more popular in N scale, and we've even started seeing sound in N (although its qualities are hotly contested). New locos and cars are beautifully detailed and rival HO in accuracy.I know that many people discount N simply because they "can't se it." But its small size actually lets you sit back and absorb a full scene with a train moving through it, as you might as a railfan some distance from trackside, allowing the scene to dominate the train.
I know I gave the "silly" Terminator-parallel answer, but here's my serious response:
The future of model railroading is N scale.
Why? Is it because I'm biased since I'm in N scale? Maybe, but I was in HO for over 20 years before I converted to N for some compelling reasons.
Reasons why N scale is poised to become ever more popular:
1. Newer homes... Many have no basements. Rooms in new homes (even the McMansions that have 3000+ square feet) tend to be smaller even though there are more of them. Finding a spare bedroom greater than, say, 12x14 or 12x16 is difficult, and that's a limited space to model anything beyond shortline ops in HO or larger.
2. Modern railroading... We can debate all day about how many new model railroaders there will be 20 years from now, but it's a fair bet that many of them will be influenced by, and want to model, modern railroading. It's far easier to accomplish a prototype-length train of autoracks or stack packs in N than it is in HO on a home layout.
3. Greater choices... Many people might consider N if only their favorite prototype were offered. N scale product announcements have been fast and furious (although Model Railroader tends to ignore them). The number of new N scale products actually delivered, though smaller, is still impressive.
4. Better products... DCC is becoming far more popular in N scale, and we've even started seeing sound in N (although its qualities are hotly contested). New locos and cars are beautifully detailed and rival HO in accuracy.
I know that many people discount N simply because they "can't se it." But its small size actually lets you sit back and absorb a full scene with a train moving through it, as you might as a railfan some distance from trackside, allowing the scene to dominate the train.
Dave
N Scale rules
A close read of your post reveals the old N Mantra. "With all the progress in N over the past 10 years, we are winning on all fronts." It is really a tired argument. Indeed, N scale has finally arrived at some level of acceptabilty. However one cannot discount that HO, O and the other scales have in themselves achieved remarkable improvements in quality, reliability, capability and progress that is nothing less than spectacular. The bar is constantly moving and the old saying n-1 will likely always be true.
I've seen John Widmar's truly amazing N scale railroad. Magnificent. It shows what can be done in 1/2 of a small garage over 20 years or so. Truly a work of art.
But let us fast forward to the Train Shows of today. I go to examine and watch the display railroads. I have yet to see an N scale railroad (John Widmar's exception) that was memorable. Ratio is about 3 to 1 HO over N. The N scale fellows are typically putzing around trying to make it work, The HO guys are explaining to the crowd how to join their club or how they built something, or what something is.
I can name 5 or 6 very high quality club layouts in Colorado, the Scottish Highland club (not sure of their name) is simply amazing. The Greeley club, WOW, so much neat stuff I just cannot take it all in and I've seen it 4 or 5 times. And there are three others that just impress the heck out of me each time I see them. Oh, the N Scale layout at Caboose Hobbies is way cool too. But it is not my pick as 'best' of the 6 or 7 HI Q layouts there.
Rationalize it however you will, but N Scale does not, from my view, dominate the healthy Model Railroad community in Colorado. No way.
Home Size A modeler will always overcome space limitations one way or another. While I have continiously expanded my own railroad, one could argue, rather convincingly that I'd be better off with a small and completed railroad. I'm pretty sure that MOST single family homes in the Denver area have basements. Even many townhomes have basements. But I grew up in Oklahoma where there were few, if any basements. I got the room and am not going to apologize for it. I'm thankful!
Eras
MTH is moving into HO. Interesting, what locomotives have they chosen? STEAM. And they are announcing more to come. Let us cut to the chase here. To me, even a tiny 0-4-0 dockside is more antimated and interesting to watch than any Diesel. Steam is fun and interesting to watch, listen to, operate and tinker with. Nothing wrong with Diesel, but steam engines are inately more interesting. IMHO, this is the reason the transition era dominates and will continue to dominate. Railroads like Durango-Silverton and the Straussburg in PA keep the steam image clearly centered in our heads.
More choices?
Just exactly when did N overtake all other scales in product choice? Will it someday? Who knows?
Better Products?
Better than the older N scale, certainly. But better than the larger scales, exactly when did that happen? Oh, you said they rival HO in accuracy. Maybe, but I don't think so.
So far, the only place I've seen where N scale rules is on Trainboard.
SO, is the future of Model Railroading to be N Scale? I don't know. But there is one fact that is inescapable, sometime between age 40 an 50 most people's eyesight begins to deteriorate.
Dave, I do very much appreciate your loyalty, skill and accomplishments, please I mean nothing personal.
High regards,
Joe
Just my 2 cents, never worth more!
on30francisco wrote: Although HO will probably remain the majority scale, N scale will grow in popularity due to the vast improvements that are constantly being made. O scale (especially On30) and Large Scale narrow gauge (indoors, from a model railroading aspect) will also see more growth.
Although HO will probably remain the majority scale, N scale will grow in popularity due to the vast improvements that are constantly being made. O scale (especially On30) and Large Scale narrow gauge (indoors, from a model railroading aspect) will also see more growth.
A few friendly Points of Information, for all, are in order here.
Based on countless surveys conducted over the decades, the relative percentage of model railroaders devoted to N-gauge has not changed materially in more than 35 years. All the supposedly significant factors that would have favored its progressively increasing its percentage of the market, most of which having been claimed long ago, have played out already without any detectable change in N's status.
Railroading's Transition Era has been, by far, the most popular era to model for more than 50 years and, likewise, its percentage of the market has not altered markedly in all that time. Most modelers today never saw steam engines, E or F-units in operation, yet they model that era in their tens of thousands and the manufacturers pour out endless models from that period.
Modern prototype trains are all but invisible to today's society in nearly all parts of the county but particularly in urban areas, were the majority of today's individuals reside. Thus, they are even more unlikely to be a major influence of what folks model in the future. In fact, our hobby has become progressively about replicating an increasingly distant past and not the current or even relatively recent era! Modeling truly contemporary railroading is presently done by only a tiny fraction of hobbyists.
On21/2 has and always will have a very narrow appeal among hobbyists by virtue of its prototypical roads and industrial applications being very limited in scope relative to other mainline roads and their diversity of purpose and operations. There has always been an On21/2 or On3 faction in the hobby but it was far less obvious because its participants had to model mainly with brass locos and rollingstock. Now its much cheaper to do so. However, there would be little reason to believe these scales will become any major segment of the hobby in the future since their appeal/application is much too narrow.
In a similar fashion, classic railroad "operations" has a rather limited appeal amongst hobbyists, in spite of what you may read in MR (for nearly 60 years the great "pusher" of the operations idea). No poll or survey has ever indicated that more than about 30% of hobbyist participate in that particular aspect of model railroading and most surveys suggest a percentage closer 20%, even less for the car card/timetable folks. For the great majority of hobbyists, model railroading is about simply running their trains as they please, not shuttling cars back and forth according to little cards, nor running fast freights against fast clocks and timetables.
Viable predictions of the future of the hobby (or anything else) need to be based on facts, not just wild speculation and wishes.
That's why I said "many," not "all."
I don't model modern railroading either; I model July 1956. But it's hard to deny that kids born today will have less exposure, except via train museums and tourist lines, to railroading of yesteryear, while modern railroading is accessible everywhere.
My argument is that as we older modelers fade out, the new ones replacing us will probably be more likely to model modern ops. That's one of the many reasons I think N will actually overtake HO in the future.
I know not everyone born with modern trains models them. I was born in 1974 but I model transition era. But because I have only seen transition era railroading in books and old movies, it's not as easy to capture in model form as it would be to model what I remember, like Conrail and Amtrak.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
I realize that the quality of N scale has vastly improved in the past 20 years, however, not everyone has the desire to model contemporary or mainline railroads (not that there's anything wrong with those). N is great for broad curves, vast scenic effects, and mainline modeling in any space. The larger scales have many assets for modeling shortlines, backwoods-type railroads, logging, narrow gauge and other small unusual prototypes or those who enjoy super detailing. As for space, it's true you need alot of it to model today's mainlines in the larger scales but there are other types of railroads that can be modeled in much smaller spaces - even in Large Scale. Modeling around the perimeter of a room allows for broad curves and is a much more efficient use of space as the room can be used for other activities.
simon1966 wrote:I would suggest that the Craftsman is not vanishing from the hobby. They may not be here on this forum, but there is a vibrant and thriving craftsman segment of this hobby. The recent narrow gauge convention, which features many craftsmen, had a greater attendance than the NMRA convention. There is a first annual Craftsman Structure Show coming up this fall. http://www.craftsmanstructureshow.com/ Registration has been high to the extent that they are no longer accepting registrations for the hands on clinic. As I have entered this new world I have been discovering that there are dozens of companies producing high quality craftsman style kits.I think the hobby will become more and more segmented and specialized. Cottage industries will serve these segments. To an extent this has largely happened already. Even the "Big Players" in DCC are small specialized companies.I don't have a clue what will happen with technology in the future, but I would suggest that at least for the next decade the craftsman segment of MRR will actually grow.
I would suggest that the Craftsman is not vanishing from the hobby. They may not be here on this forum, but there is a vibrant and thriving craftsman segment of this hobby. The recent narrow gauge convention, which features many craftsmen, had a greater attendance than the NMRA convention. There is a first annual Craftsman Structure Show coming up this fall. http://www.craftsmanstructureshow.com/ Registration has been high to the extent that they are no longer accepting registrations for the hands on clinic. As I have entered this new world I have been discovering that there are dozens of companies producing high quality craftsman style kits.
I think the hobby will become more and more segmented and specialized. Cottage industries will serve these segments. To an extent this has largely happened already. Even the "Big Players" in DCC are small specialized companies.
I don't have a clue what will happen with technology in the future, but I would suggest that at least for the next decade the craftsman segment of MRR will actually grow.
Yes, there are many more craftsman kits available than there was in the past. I also subscribe to Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette, Light Iron Digest, and Main Two Footers which feature alot of excellent scratchbuilding articles including tips for modeling obscure gauges and prototypes and have many ads for craftsman kits and cottage industries. I believe the hobby is already segmented and that this trend will continue in the future. Since I'm part of this realm I rely on many cottage industries and other specialized sources to fulfill my interests in narrow gauge modeling.
I WISH the future of model railroading included a model of every locomotive ever made. Good running, well detailed models of every locomotive you can think of...
The future of this forum should include no trolls.
Advertisers will work with publishers to build 'purchase account options' priced directly into subscriptions. A reader will then be allowed to scan a product barcode in the magazine from their living room via wireless technology --- and the item ordered will be processed and shipped with no further action by the subscriber. Easy shopping!
In the future, I suspect that DCC will become ubiquitous, with the systems getting more powerful and yet smaller, and moreover, simpler and ever-more user friendly. And probably less expensive. That's always been the way with technology. And kids growing up today are growing up in a tech-heavy world....there won't be as much aversion to it. Instead of 20% of MR's being in DCC, like today, it will be more like 80%.
I also think that N will become the new HO. N offers greater scale for layouts and greater ability to run, in a smaller space, the longer freight cars of today, the ones that kids are growing up seeing. And N products will grow in quantity and detail.
And I speak this as someone who is dedicated to HO, and who is pretty technologically challenged at times.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
When HDTV becomes the law a huge amount of band width will become available with no interference on it. The FCC plans to auction it off. Experts are forecasting that this event will make all kinds of broadcast applications possible that were not heretofore.
With 15 volt AC on the tracks, and diodes in the engine for conversion to DC, radio control will be a reality. An alternative will be batteries recharged by DC track current which can be at 3 volts to operate LEDS and recharge batteries (2 1.5 V cells). Any thing is possible when the electronic geniuses put there mind to it.
DC was a big improvement over AC. 12 volts was a big improvement over 6 volts. DCC was another step up. We just don't know yet where UP really is.
But I am betting it will be a big improvement over DCC and will be compatible with both DC and DCC equipped engines. The track can then be blocked for signalling and crossing controls, etc. without regard to the control system.
joe-daddy wrote: jfallon wrote: snipModel RR only LHS's will likely disappear. Only the largest retailers in the big cities will remain, with most of the smaller businesses going to internet sales. One of the big-box retailers may add a hobby section to their stores, at best, carrying strictly RTR. There will be more small scale home industries making and selling limited run models and kits, again on the internet. John It is interesting that people write off the LHS now and in the future. Denver has TWO of the best hobby shops in the entire US, maybe even the world! And that is fact. Caboose is always busy, Sunday morning, Tuesday afternoon, perhaps they are slow during the Bronco games but I doubt that too. And they are my favorite web place too! AN Don's in Greeley is nothing to dismiss either!Everyone thought that Wally Mart would destroy the hardware and lumber yards. Not a chance, HD and Lowes thrive, I have THREE Lowes very close to me and a FOURTH is about to rise out of the ground 2 miles from the house.Model railroading is typically an old man's hobby, and I am certainly following into that mold. The boomers are heading into the last turn. Will these high tech, toy loving, well healed fellows migrate to the model railroad hobby? Certainly some will. I am optimistic, the hobby will continue to florish, attract new hobbyists and the demand for stuff will remain strong. That means someone must sell the goods. Take Ebay out of the picture and tell me an exciting web hobby shop to visit, something that will captivate me like an hour at Mizells or the Caboose. Don't even bother trying to tell me there is one, I've visited them all and nothing fulfills like seeing the wall of trains or the brass case. Nothing.Only my 2 cents, never worth an extra penny! Joe
jfallon wrote: snipModel RR only LHS's will likely disappear. Only the largest retailers in the big cities will remain, with most of the smaller businesses going to internet sales. One of the big-box retailers may add a hobby section to their stores, at best, carrying strictly RTR. There will be more small scale home industries making and selling limited run models and kits, again on the internet. John
Model RR only LHS's will likely disappear. Only the largest retailers in the big cities will remain, with most of the smaller businesses going to internet sales. One of the big-box retailers may add a hobby section to their stores, at best, carrying strictly RTR. There will be more small scale home industries making and selling limited run models and kits, again on the internet.
John
It is interesting that people write off the LHS now and in the future. Denver has TWO of the best hobby shops in the entire US, maybe even the world! And that is fact. Caboose is always busy, Sunday morning, Tuesday afternoon, perhaps they are slow during the Bronco games but I doubt that too. And they are my favorite web place too! AN Don's in Greeley is nothing to dismiss either!
Everyone thought that Wally Mart would destroy the hardware and lumber yards. Not a chance, HD and Lowes thrive, I have THREE Lowes very close to me and a FOURTH is about to rise out of the ground 2 miles from the house.
Model railroading is typically an old man's hobby, and I am certainly following into that mold. The boomers are heading into the last turn. Will these high tech, toy loving, well healed fellows migrate to the model railroad hobby? Certainly some will.
I am optimistic, the hobby will continue to florish, attract new hobbyists and the demand for stuff will remain strong. That means someone must sell the goods. Take Ebay out of the picture and tell me an exciting web hobby shop to visit, something that will captivate me like an hour at Mizells or the Caboose. Don't even bother trying to tell me there is one, I've visited them all and nothing fulfills like seeing the wall of trains or the brass case. Nothing.
Only my 2 cents, never worth an extra penny!
As far as LHSs go, Caboose Hobbies is the exception rather than the norm. Most cities, even some large ones, either have no LHS or skimpily stocked, poorly-ran ones which makes online ordering a must. If it wasn't for places like Caboose Hobbies, and had to rely strictly on our LHSs, my modeling would be severely limited. I believe tmany smaller LHSs will be going the way of the 8 track while places like Caboose, Trainworld and other shops that are up-to-date with online ordering will prosper.
GTX765 wrote: oleirish wrote: I think It will be radio control even in the "N" scale.Think about It??no wires under the lay out,no block controls,ECT,ECT.radio is getting smaller everyday!It is allredy used in "G" scale,and some "O" scale,"HO" is close allso at the present.JIMHow would the radio control work? You would need a some very nice electronics in the engines. The R/C hobby cars are far more pricy when it comes to the electronics and radio controlled systems. Would the engines run on a battery then? Just wondering, I have not seen any trains yet with R/C and wondered if it was the same as R/C cars.
oleirish wrote: I think It will be radio control even in the "N" scale.Think about It??no wires under the lay out,no block controls,ECT,ECT.radio is getting smaller everyday!It is allredy used in "G" scale,and some "O" scale,"HO" is close allso at the present.JIM
I think It will be radio control even in the "N" scale.Think about It??no wires under the lay out,no block controls,ECT,ECT.radio is getting smaller everyday!It is allredy used in "G" scale,and some "O" scale,"HO" is close allso at the present.
JIM
How would the radio control work? You would need a some very nice electronics in the engines. The R/C hobby cars are far more pricy when it comes to the electronics and radio controlled systems. Would the engines run on a battery then? Just wondering, I have not seen any trains yet with R/C and wondered if it was the same as R/C cars.
I predict that it won't be batteries, but miniature fuel cells that will power our future locos. There will also be wireless DCC. Hey, maybe each car will have wireless technology to control their couplers as well?
So now there will be no need for cleaning track, and it can be made out of cheaper materials. Also add that traction tires can be more extensively used on locos, so they will be able to haul more without fear of compromising electrical/signal pickup (since there will be none).
Probably something that will happen more than 25 years from now. But I have read that computer makers are aggressively pursuing fuel cell technology for laptop PCs. They want to do away with batteries altogether because fuel cells will outlast them and weigh much less. Several other industries are also trying to develop fuel cells to replace batteries in various equipment that is currently battery operated.
DCC is the wave of today, however in a few years, as batteries inprove and get smaller, I'd like to see wireless controlled battery powered locomotives that can run for an hour or more on one charge.
Loco's would be "refueled" on charging track(s). These could be at diesel refueling facilities or coaling towers and would be fully automatic quick charging, say less than five real time minutes.
Imagine, wireless "DCC" with no power to the tracks, no wiring issues, no rail gaps, no reverse loop wiring, no turntable wiring, no need for isolating blocks, all rail switches with all metal parts inculding tie bars, no short circuits through poor wiring, no short circuits due to trailing through a switch, no shorts due to wheels touching the backs of switch blades, no power blocks, no "boosters" etc., etc.. The advantages of battery power are endless.
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the late Great Eastern Railway see: - http://www.greateasternrailway.com
For more photos of the late GER see: - http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/
jfallon wrote:I predict that someone will have a DCC system that is simply a program on your PC with an interface to the track boosters,
and you will be able to use a cell phone as a wireless throttle.
Technology-wise, DCC still the standard for command control, but the decoders will have power capacitors to hold a charge to run the locomotive over dirty track (Lenz is using this now). I predict that someone will have a DCC system that is simply a program on your PC with an interface to the track boosters, and you will be able to use a cell phone as a wireless throttle. You will also be able to see the view from the locomotive cab mini-cam on your cell phone screen as you run the train.
Sound will be standard even in low end train set locomotives.
The NMRA will finally adopt an HO scale knuckle coupler standard which will still not be near as good as Kadee's.
If everybody is thinking alike, then nobody is really thinking.
http://photobucket.com/tandarailroad/
Gandy Dancer wrote:A real person has to manually go to the car and pull the uncoupling handle. They cannot sit up in a tower somewhere and push a button to uncouple where ever they want.In fact, our automatic coupling when we press cars up against each other isn't too prototypical either. In real life a person has to manually go and open the coupler (more like the Lionel or Sargents brand couplers) and connect the brake hose.
A real person has to manually go to the car and pull the uncoupling handle. They cannot sit up in a tower somewhere and push a button to uncouple where ever they want.
In fact, our automatic coupling when we press cars up against each other isn't too prototypical either. In real life a person has to manually go and open the coupler (more like the Lionel or Sargents brand couplers) and connect the brake hose.
Now I know you're not suggesting someone invent a tiny little android person/brakeman/engineer to go around coupling & uncoupling our cars are you? Maybe running our tiny little live steam units built in N scale according to our giant wims and jumping off to run and switch a turnout just for prototypical realism.
All I was trying to say is I don't want to reach into my artificial scene to use a bamboo skewer to uncouple my cars. I'm modeling in N-scale and my giant fingers fumbling around in that little scene just doesn't do it for me on the realism side. I think it would be much more realistic if I could punch in a code and tell the car to uncouple itself just as if that tiny little guy had done it.
I do think automatic uncoupling is possible its just a matter of making it practical.
IRONROOSTER wrote: I don't think the true craftsman has disappeared (remember when he was the guy who bought castings and strip wood as opposed to kits?
I don't think the true craftsman has disappeared (remember when he was the guy who bought castings and strip wood as opposed to kits?
No, I agree he hasn't disappeared. However the population of craftsmen is declining, and I think rapidly. I think he will disappear sooner or later.
IRONROOSTER wrote: - What has shrunk are the guys who used to built kits because that's all there was (RTR being too toyish and/or poorly operating). With the advent of good and high quality RTR that costs less than Brass and only a small amount more than kits, no one has to build if they don't want to. And it turns out that a lot of folks want a model railroad but don't have the desire or time to build all the components.
- What has shrunk are the guys who used to built kits because that's all there was (RTR being too toyish and/or poorly operating). With the advent of good and high quality RTR that costs less than Brass and only a small amount more than kits, no one has to build if they don't want to.
And it turns out that a lot of folks want a model railroad but don't have the desire or time to build all the components.
Gandy Dancer wrote: CNJ831 wrote:Sorry, Dancer, but those 1979 Blue Box Athearns were, at the time, the hobby standard against which all other products were measured, warts and all. They were the top-of-the-line production item, as good as it got over the counter. If you wanted better, you had to rework them yourself.Hmmm... Not that I don't understand your point, but I have to disagree and say I've never considered the Athearn Blue box to be top of the line. Atlas had them beat hands down with Roco drive, Hobby Town had can motors and the centrifugal clutch system, even the Model Power E units had those massive can motors by then. It wasn't until GSB announce their "bull dog" drive for the SD40 that Athearn improved the Blue box line to try to contend for top-of-the-line, but then Atlas trumped them with the Kato drive.
CNJ831 wrote:Sorry, Dancer, but those 1979 Blue Box Athearns were, at the time, the hobby standard against which all other products were measured, warts and all. They were the top-of-the-line production item, as good as it got over the counter. If you wanted better, you had to rework them yourself.
In point of fact, in 1979 Hobbytown of Boston was such a minor player in the hobby as to be largely unknown to the majority of hobbyists. They were mentioned by a few hobbyist in MR occasionally but they appear to have largely been a word of mouth product. They certainly didn't advertise what they had available in the way of motive power in the hobby press. And while their mechanisms could indeed "pull down the walls", that was largely all they offered. What few customers bought them assembled completed units with other company's shells, so they can't be called an individual product.
Model Power's E's were nice too, but outside of that one item, their products were considered junk. One loco, of very limited appeal, does not make a state-of-the-art standard. If it did, you could certainly find obscure, singular items today (especially European) that are decidely superior to the accepted best general runs of ours today. For detail, if you want to see "plastic brass", they really do have it.
I will agree that Atlas had started to introduce some nice running diesels at that point. However, their availability and selection was still quite limited...just check the hobbyshop/mail order dealers' listings of the day and see how very few carried Atlas (I found almost none early in the year!). I think that Hobbies For Men, in Beacon, NY, may have been the first major retailer (beyond Atlas themselves) to give the product any ad space.
In 1979 the standards in the hobby were Athearn, MDC, Bowser, Mantua, and AHM. Of these, by shear volume and reputation, Athearn would have to be considered as far and away the leader and "state-of-the art" among what was available in a complete line of HO motive power and to which everything else was to be compared. If you ran diesels back then, odds were at least 25:1 that they were made by Athearn.
Me!
All the teenagers will be old, thats what I foresee :D
Alex
Gandy Dancer wrote: loathar wrote:I hope it doesn't advance too much more. I get tired of things getting so expensive that I can't afford them anymore.I really really really do not understand this. Things are SO relatively cheap now compared to what they used to be and they are better to boot. A most simple example - in 1979 an Athearn Blue Box GP9 cost me $18 street price. The detail was terrible with a way wide hood and it sucked 2.5 amps on start up. Now an Athearn RTR RS-3 retails for $90 with a street price of about $50. Lets see, as I recall minimum wage was $2.10 back then, so it took me 8.5 hours of work to make enough money for the loco. Now depending on which state one lives the minimum wage is an average of $7. So it now it only takes 7.1 hours of work to earn a similar Athearn locomotive. And that is a much better locomotive. Better looking, better running, and consumes much less power.Any economic factor I can come up with results in cheaper models of higher quality. I think the real issue is no one is willing to settle for comparable products. Everyone wants to compare the new top quality stuff to the old run of the mill stuff. That is just not a reasonible comparison. Holding one's model expectations constant, the prices have come down through the years. And to stay on topic, I believe that will be the trend into the future. There will be much better and more variation of models produced. The high end models will will continue to raise the bar on what is expected. People unwilling to be satisfied with what they used to have will gripe because things are getting too expensive, but those will be the same people that blast the old things like brass track, locos without can motors & fly wheels, DC, and other things that are being put down today. I am certain there are model railroaders out there that are more satisfied with, have more fun, and enjoy their "toy train" layouts much more than some of those with all the most modern, top of the line, and trendy things available in the hobby today.
loathar wrote:I hope it doesn't advance too much more. I get tired of things getting so expensive that I can't afford them anymore.
A most simple example - in 1979 an Athearn Blue Box GP9 cost me $18 street price. The detail was terrible with a way wide hood and it sucked 2.5 amps on start up. Now an Athearn RTR RS-3 retails for $90 with a street price of about $50. Lets see, as I recall minimum wage was $2.10 back then, so it took me 8.5 hours of work to make enough money for the loco. Now depending on which state one lives the minimum wage is an average of $7. So it now it only takes 7.1 hours of work to earn a similar Athearn locomotive. And that is a much better locomotive. Better looking, better running, and consumes much less power.
Any economic factor I can come up with results in cheaper models of higher quality. I think the real issue is no one is willing to settle for comparable products. Everyone wants to compare the new top quality stuff to the old run of the mill stuff. That is just not a reasonible comparison. Holding one's model expectations constant, the prices have come down through the years.
And to stay on topic, I believe that will be the trend into the future. There will be much better and more variation of models produced. The high end models will will continue to raise the bar on what is expected. People unwilling to be satisfied with what they used to have will gripe because things are getting too expensive, but those will be the same people that blast the old things like brass track, locos without can motors & fly wheels, DC, and other things that are being put down today. I am certain there are model railroaders out there that are more satisfied with, have more fun, and enjoy their "toy train" layouts much more than some of those with all the most modern, top of the line, and trendy things available in the hobby today.
Some things are getting pricier in this hobby. I'm not ranting about RTR locos or rolling stock as the quality and detailing are supurb compared to what was available twenty years ago. Since I do a lot of scratchbuilding and am not interested in the latest gadgets or fads, save for high quality RTR locos, my costs used to be minimal. I've noticed a trend in the pricing of dedicated detail parts and other supplies such as stripwood and especially paints. The prices are going through the roof! The prices on dedicated stripwood and paints has almost doubled in a few years and probably will continue this trend in the near future. Since I model in Large Scale and On30, I can use the dimensional stripwood, artists acrylics, and many other supplies available at discount craft stores at prices much lower than most LHSs. I don't fault the LHSs because they have to make a living and charge Walthers MSRP, however, with the many alternative online and discount stores, they will have a much harder time competing for our hobby funds. The trend for inflated prices will probably continue but modelers should try to utilize other sources for supplies whenever possible.
Tom Curtin wrote:...One category of modeler that is disappearing for sure is the true craftsman. I see a large trend away from kits of any kind, into "open up the box and put the contents in place." Here's one dramatic example: Who'd have thunk 20 years ago that you'd see the variety of pre-built plastic structures that are around today?...
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One category of modeler that is disappearing for sure is the true craftsman. I see a large trend away from kits of any kind, into "open up the box and put the contents in place." Here's one dramatic example: Who'd have thunk 20 years ago that you'd see the variety of pre-built plastic structures that are around today?
I don't think the true craftsman has disappeared (remember when he was the guy who bought castings and strip wood as opposed to kits? - remember when "craftsman" kits were more than assembling a plastic jigsaw puzzle?). I think he is doing just fine.
What has shrunk are the guys who used to built kits because that's all there was (RTR being too toyish and/or poorly operating). With the advent of good and high quality RTR that costs less than Brass and only a small amount more than kits, no one has to build if they don't want to.
I know that I don't have the time. I have been accumulating kits and parts for retirement in a couple of years, but at the moment I use RTR where I can because I want to get the railroad going. Which, come to think of it, is like a giant kit.
Enjoy
Paul