"Billy, remind to tell of a train that doesn't run on tracks"..."No fooling, Mr. Carpenter??"
Exchange between Billy and Klaatu....
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
In Soviet Russia... trains model you!
...for those who remember Yakov Smirnov.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
The future...the future... Thats a wrestled discussion in the club I was in, They went DCC. I was working on computer generated switchlists, but since we modeled the 50's as a basic, there werent computers then. So to keep with a theme, car cards. I think the biggest problem with car cards and operating is they always get messed up, so as the operations manager, I was scanning the cards and cars before a run session and making sure everything was set.
Then we had cards for cars that were not on the layout, and cars with no cards...argh
No matter if you go high tech in this area or not, you will still have these problems.
I think as modelers we have demanded quality locos and the manufacturers have responded, those like have made the cheapie toy sets now have high quality engines. You know who you are Life Like and Bachmann.... I always avoided those makers, but today, mean street coolness.
In the future, how about a little fewer "Big Boys"...
really I think the Big Boy is the most romantically connected lokie, why so many were made.
Technology can do nothing but help improve the hobby, so 3 cheers for the hobby!!
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
1 Better on-board speakers and sound decoders, including a diesel Tsunami
2 An option for pre-weathered locos and freight cars on all new releases
3 A steam engine in HO from Atlas
Jon
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Thoughts that come to my mind include: no more hobby stores (all online) and a lack of people caring about modeling and trains unless they can do a layout on a computer. My generation of kids (i'm 22) are, which many probably have observed, obessed with computers. My dad's generation was all Lionel and hobby stores everywhere; my generation is GameStop and GameCrazy. I'd rather have something I can use in my own hands that I can work on if the power goes out.
I see two technology advances that will significantly advance model railroading:
1. Ready-to-run (RTR) type track (to include curved turnouts, double-slip switches)--all the goodies needed to make a "custom" but bullet-proof layout but without the need to tweak every rail joint. Look at what the RTR engines, cars, and scenery have done for that market.
2. An easy way to operate your trains wire-lessly. I see DCC as an interim (currently user-surly) way to do that today. Already you're seeing some higher end engines that have a wireless controller packaged with them that operates on DC. If the DCC guys can't agree to agree than they're going to be left in the dust when this upstart blows past them. Most model railroaders that I know (and I belong to a Club with 50+ members) only use DCC because the Club went that direction and wireless is very desired feature. 90% of them can only program a new engine number in a decoder (what percentage of new decoders sold are the basic, few featured ones?)
Future model railroading must be easy to do, it must fit in smaler spaces (N will grow), and Digitalsystems may devolpe.
Manufacturers may pay atention to new costumers and how to conect to younger people.
Laidlaym wrote: We might have to go back to basics and build a lot more ourselves due to the collapse of the Global Economy when oil and coal run out and/or their use becomes unacceptable due to environmental damage. Mark in Melbourne
We might have to go back to basics and build a lot more ourselves due to the collapse of the Global Economy when oil and coal run out and/or their use becomes unacceptable due to environmental damage.
Mark in Melbourne
Yeah.
Like we'll all be alive when that happens. There are more known oil reserves on this planet nowadays than at any other time in the past.
The only oil shortage is the one created by the oil industry. Ditto for coal. There's still millions of tons of the stuff under the UK that's not being mined since Maggy Thatcher busted the unions. The UK now imports coal, if you can believe that. :-(.
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the late Great Eastern Railway see: - http://www.greateasternrailway.com
For more photos of the late GER see: - http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/
I agree with loathar in the hope the prices for locomotives will get more afforable. The determining factor on this seems to be the addition od DCC and sound. Some builders have already found out that not everybody wants sound or DCC and are offering options. We need more of this from the rest of the manufacturers. We also need to get these same manufacturers to release the product on the day they say it's going to be available, or notify the hobbyist of the delay. I recently received a catalog from a brand name company that offered a locomotive currently for sale that was discontinued in February of 2005 thus unavailable. I think I got a little off the topic here, but again the point is accuracy from the supplier for rolling stock, locomotives and buildings.
Another thing I see as I read articles in MR and others, is the ease of having someone else build your railroad for you. That's okay if it's used as perhaps a display for a business, but don't claim the credit. In my opinion, pre assembled buildings are taking away the basic skills of assembly, planning and imagination (ever try to paint the window frames a different colour on a pre-built?). I think some of the hobby groups are so determined to get new people that they entice them with anything--i.e. pre-built layouts, sorta like the "plug and play" games. This is not what the hobby is about. It has taken me over 25 years to get my railroad to a point where I am semi-satisfied, and it has been 25 plus years of my sweat, not anybody elses. It gives me a great feeling of accomplishment when a visitor says "WOW" and I can say, "thank you-I did it myself".
I'm joining this discussion a bit late, but here's my prediction for a layout of the future:
The layout itself won't be designed primarily to be viewed by the naked eye (although that could remain an option) but rather by TV and/or virtual reality. A typical layout would be a trough, perhaps 1'-2' wide (depending on they layout's scale) encircling the layout room. It could be built at floor level, or near the ceiling. The track essentially runs down the middle of the trough, with backdrops and scenery on both sides.
Running the train will be by using controls mimicking a real engine, only with a TV monitor replacing the view ahead. Small micro-TV's will be in the model engines, with the signal perhaps mixed with a Simulator program to make it look like the view is from the interior of a real cab, with the TV signal showing the layout visible only thru the windows. (You could substitute the view from a caboose with a similar micro-TV so you could look out over the train from the cupola, or from the interior or observation platform of a passenger car.)
You operate the train like a real one, and what you see on the monitor is pretty much what you'd see from a real engine. Blue- or Green-screen technology would allow your sky backdrops to be animated, so clouds actually move, rain clouds appear, and you can connect that up with your lighting to simulate the progress of the sun in the sky.
Another viewing option would be micro-cameras mounted at prime viewing spots beside the track or in a signal tower. The view would be shown to the viewer via a TV monitor, but you could also have a helmet that allows for "surround" virtual reality viewing - and is also tied into a servo that moves the TV camera around as you move your head around. (This could be used for the cab and other viewers / operators too.)
There would be much more animation than today...scale people wave as the train goes by, automobiles roll along roads, etc. along with sounds coming from small speakers under the layout, or just piped into headphones as part of the virtual reality system. The train goes by a farm, the sounds of cows mooing becomes louder, then softer after you pass.
To anyone who absolutely, positively thinks you have to have a basement, please obtain and read a copy of Your Engineered House by Rex Roberts. (By his definition, if you can walk out, it isn't a basement.)
One of my garages was in South Dakota. My present one is in Southern Nevada. Neither is particularly climate controlled, but both are useable.
A lovely source of ample layout space, quite inexpensive in most places, is a shipping container (intermodal variety.) Once placed on a gravel bed, epoxy painted and bermed, it can add visual interest to a back yard (a small hill where there wasn't any) and provide more space than most model railroaders can use efficiently.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
In New York and Pennsylvania, where I spent my childhood, basements were standard. Our house had a fine finished basement that served as a family room, including a 10'x20' space my father set aside for the layout he never built.
Here in the Raleigh, NC area, the few basements that exist are typically the walk-out kind (i.e., the house is built on a slope). Why? Geology. Central North Carolina sits on what's called the "clay cap." Our soil is solid clay, hard as cement. Simply digging a post hole or in the garden, once you get below the few inches of top soil, is a painful proposition.
tomikawaTT wrote: "we've always done it that way," is the worst possible excuse for ANYTHING that could be done more efficiently!
"we've always done it that way," is the worst possible excuse for ANYTHING that could be done more efficiently!
Climate issues: Here we need a full-blown central heating system which today in new construction is often integrated with an air conditioning system. Nothing says it has to go in the basement; but anywhere else in the house it will eat up living space. RE garage layouts, I guess some do get built in this part of the country; but the garage is not pleasantly usable for recreational purposes in the winter unless it's heated. I remember there were houses built with heated garages when I was a kid in the 50s, but that construction went the way of the cheap energy of that era. And as I think of it, we have the opposite problem in the summer --- the garage is too damned hot!.
"Culture:" In the northeast --- and I think in the middle Atlantic states too --- the most popular and sought after home design is what real estate parlance has universally dubbed the "Colonial" --- two stories of living space, with living area dowstairs and bedrooms up; and a gabled roof that (as long as the roof is built at a high enough angle) gives you a usable attic. Layouts get built in those too. I owned (and dearly loved) such a house for 27 years, and I will tell you that you have basically exactly the same climate control problem in the attic as in the garage!
Now all that said, the vast majority of houses in the northeast do have basements. I have seen houses with only a crawl space, or built on a slab; but here, in this part of the country that is regarded as second-rate building. I fully realize the norms are all different in the sunbelt.
Dave Vollmer wrote: snipAs for the basement argument, as a US Air Force officer who's been stationed all over the country (and world) I can say you'd be shocked at how many parts of the country don't have basements as standard. snip
Dave,
The basement comments that followed must be amusing to our international modeling brothers (& sisters). Now I'm not claiming to be much of a world traveler, but I do get out of the basement occassionally, having been to Europe several times, and to Japan. The one real difference I observed between here in the USA and there is the absence of single family homes, or anything that even resembles a single family house. I drove from southern France to Frankfurt through Switzerland and I don't remember seing any and I was looking for them. Occassionally I'd see a farm that 'could' be a single family house, but the overwhelming majority were Multi-family and two family were rare in many places as well.
Kinda makes me wonder if our discussion about basements sound a bit silly to our friends overseas. Seems to me that we yanks are spoiled to our space. Even though space is an issue in Europe, we see a strong HO presence and Mr. Lenz is diligently working to excite the O gauge community. I've a hunch that model railroading is everybit as healthy in Europe as it is in the US, in fact while in Brussels last December, we visited a really neat bookstore that was also a resturant and they had a really large and quite sophisticated Marklin (looked like Marklin to me, sorry if it is something else) that had buttons to allow it to run depending upon which one was pushed by the public. What was so unique about this railroad was that it was under the FLOOR, covered by a very think clear plastic flooring.
Interesting, that Thomas was born and raised in Europe, space limitations and all. I wonder if the World's Greatest Hobby marketing plan has been as successful as Thomas in bring new modelers into the fold?
Joe
Tom Curtin wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote: As for the basement argument, as a US Air Force officer who's been stationed all over the country (and world) I can say you'd be shocked at how many parts of the country don't have basements as standard. Here in central North Carolina my realtor said it's less than 10%. In Florida, obviously, none of the houses had basements.I guess I am shocked to hear the basement-less houses are creeping north. Here in the NY metro area the only slab construction I have experienced are 1)condominiums; and 2) homes in some communities around the Jersey shore, where the terrain is so close to sea level that excavating a basement would take you well below the water table.Basement-less houses must be a beast --- not only for lack of layout space, but what the hell do you do for storage? Heating systems? Laundry? All my life I've never had any of those anywhere but in a basement!!
Dave Vollmer wrote: As for the basement argument, as a US Air Force officer who's been stationed all over the country (and world) I can say you'd be shocked at how many parts of the country don't have basements as standard. Here in central North Carolina my realtor said it's less than 10%. In Florida, obviously, none of the houses had basements.
As for the basement argument, as a US Air Force officer who's been stationed all over the country (and world) I can say you'd be shocked at how many parts of the country don't have basements as standard. Here in central North Carolina my realtor said it's less than 10%. In Florida, obviously, none of the houses had basements.
Basement-less houses must be a beast --- not only for lack of layout space, but what the hell do you do for storage? Heating systems? Laundry? All my life I've never had any of those anywhere but in a basement!!
Of the houses I have owned since departing the loving arms of the USAF, all but one were on slabs. The other had a crawlspace - and the only people who ever crawled into it were building inspectors. Storage was handled in ample closets. Those houses which had air handlers inside the frame had to devote space enough for a linen closet to housing them (my present house has its HVAC box mounted on the roof.) As for laundry, one house had it in a utility room next to the kitchen, one had it in a utility room close to the bedrooms and this one has it in a large closet adjacent to the master bedroom - no running up and down stairs with baskets!
Two of the houses had attached garages which became designated layout space. The other, without a garage, had enough room in the finished attic for more layout than I wanted to build at the time. IMHO, if layout space is a priority, the house-shopper will tell the realtor and it will be provided. (If my present house hadn't had a double garage I wouldn't have bid on it.)
What does all this have to do with the future of model railroading? Simply, the future may see things moving in unfamiliar directions - but it is very unlikely to see things come to a crashing stop.
CNJ831 wrote:No offense meant but that is the fact. I expect that the hobby's future will unfold in a very different manner overseas, where trains are much more the norm.CNJ831
No offense meant but that is the fact. I expect that the hobby's future will unfold in a very different manner overseas, where trains are much more the norm.
CNJ831
West Coast S wrote:HO dominated, overpriced and boring as with individule creativity snuffed out. Kinda like MR the magazine these past ten years or so. snipDave
HO dominated, overpriced and boring as with individule creativity snuffed out. Kinda like MR the magazine these past ten years or so. snip
Dave
Huh? What are you talking about? IMHO, the only thing really overpriced these days is Brass, and when one looks at the time involved, probably worth it.
A Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 is an example of what I am talking about. For aboutr $160, you get a sound equipped, smooth, reliable little puffer belly that just works.
I just don't see your point at all. And MR has no equal in my opine, what is the alternative and benchmark? Certainly not MRC???
My 2 cents, the bewilderment is free. . .
West Coast S wrote:HO dominated, overpriced and boring as with individule creativity snuffed out. Kinda like MR the magazine these past ten years or so. Long live fringe scale modeling and model railroading in general in spite of the aformentioned personal opinions. Dave
HO dominated, overpriced and boring as with individule creativity snuffed out. Kinda like MR the magazine these past ten years or so. Long live fringe scale modeling and model railroading in general in spite of the aformentioned personal opinions.
For the most part, ditto!
Although the quality of the common products available today is excellent, I have always been attracted to the fringe scales and gauges because not many supplies are available commercially and I like doing something very different than the majority. Since the availability of commercial supplies for us modelers on the fringe is limited, we have to be more inventive and creative by finding alternate sources for our supplies or modifying the supplies that are available. On the positive side, we don't have to rely so much on some of the high-priced dedicated modeling supplies, have the latest gadgets, and can use other less costly means to achieve our goals. On the other hand, a lot of the improvements and innovations from other scales, namely HO, will continue to allow us in the minoroty scales to achieve our modeling goals easily and inexpensively (eg. On30 vs On3).
Dave Vollmer wrote:I agree that I may be off in my prediction regarding the appeal of modern versus transition era, but I'm sensing your bias against N is leading you to make some incorrect assumptions regarding what can and is being done in N, and falls, whether you meant it to or not, as a tacit dig at my work.
I agree that I may be off in my prediction regarding the appeal of modern versus transition era, but I'm sensing your bias against N is leading you to make some incorrect assumptions regarding what can and is being done in N, and falls, whether you meant it to or not, as a tacit dig at my work.
Dave, I don't have a bias against N Scale, but I do try to report accurately what I see, N SCale does not dominate, nor IMHO, do they show all that well at the numerous train shows in Colorado, last year's N Scale convention excepted.
I know what CAN be done in the scale, as I said, Widmar's empire is fantastic.
Thanks for sending the links to your railroad videos, I've seen them in the past, nice work!
When the majority of the layouts in shows and the N Scale area of the hobby shop dominate the floor space, I'll agree with your speculation about the potential domination of N. I am confident, however that there will be plenty of residual HO stuff to keep me busy the remainder of my life.
I rather liked your terminator prediction, I thought it more likely.
I don't feel like reading through all four pages of responses so I might be redundant but I think the next big thing will be on board rechargable power. I am amazed had how much smaller and stronger batteries have become and if this trend continues, it might not be long before they are small enough and strong enough to run an HO or N scale loco for an entire operating session before needing recharging. Maybe our engine houses will resemble the golf cart barn with all our engines wired up to the recharger between sessions.
Smaller and more powerful electronic components will continue to create possiblities in all phases of the hobby. Decoder controlled couplers is one idea I read and I think that is feasible. A lot can be done scenically with lighting components and I think we are already seeing that.
One area I don't expect to see great advances in is animation of non-railroading items. With few exceptions, anything that moves on a model railroad other than the trains looks toylike and I don't expect that to change. I hope somebody proves me wrong.
Wel,, I don't know about N scale, but I know that I agree, modern Class 1 railroading has it's downfalls, which is why I model a shortline, which has an emphasis on switching and slow(er) train speeds.
I remember a few months ago in the spring, I was outside at the Steaming Tender restraunt, (located at the Palmer, MA diamond) watching a NECR GP38 (no Dash 2!) a leased CN GP40-2W, and an unknown BN loco switching the yard, hearing the slack crashing, watching the railroaders throwin switches, and trying to figure out what they were doing.
For me, that's MUCH cooler than a pair of SD70s blasting past with a stack train, sure, that's exciting to see it approaching, and feeling the ground shake as the units pass, but once 10 or so cars go past, it just gets..well....kinda boring!
I think that the N vs HO argument is based on what prototype and era one wants to model. I don't think that I will ever see the range of steam engines that is available in HO being made for the N gauge Market. I certainly never expect to see the R3, L1, I-4 and I-5 steamers native to the New Haven. And definitely not the EF-1, EF-3, EP-2 or EP-3 box cab electrics. We New Haven modelers have had enough of a fight to get them produced in HO gauge. For a New Haven modeler, N Gauge is a tough nut to crack, but I have friends doing it with what is available, but not to the extent that I can in HO. I recently sent an ABBA lashup of N Alco F units to one of them who had helped me so much with my research.
If you want to model so called modern era railroading, free lance or prototype, with long trains and multi diesel unit lashups then N probably is a better option. But personally, I would last about an hour watching a 60 car double stack pulled by 6 diesels go around and around. No station stops, no switching, no RAILROADING.
Not for me.
joe-daddy wrote:But let us fast forward to the Train Shows of today. I go to examine and watch the display railroads. I have yet to see an N scale railroad (John Widmar's exception) that was memorable. Ratio is about 3 to 1 HO over N. The N scale fellows are typically putzing around trying to make it work, The HO guys are explaining to the crowd how to join their club or how they built something, or what something is.
But let us fast forward to the Train Shows of today. I go to examine and watch the display railroads. I have yet to see an N scale railroad (John Widmar's exception) that was memorable. Ratio is about 3 to 1 HO over N. The N scale fellows are typically putzing around trying to make it work, The HO guys are explaining to the crowd how to join their club or how they built something, or what something is.
That's possibly becaue you never saw my layout at a show. If you're in Raleigh, NC, first weekend in November, you're welcome to stop by and see an N scale layout that works (mine).
joe-daddy wrote:More choices?Just exactly when did N overtake all other scales in product choice? Will it someday? Who knows? Better Products? Better than the older N scale, certainly. But better than the larger scales, exactly when did that happen? Oh, you said they rival HO in accuracy. Maybe, but I don't think so.
More choices?
Just exactly when did N overtake all other scales in product choice? Will it someday? Who knows?
Better Products?
Better than the older N scale, certainly. But better than the larger scales, exactly when did that happen? Oh, you said they rival HO in accuracy. Maybe, but I don't think so.
I didn't mean either; you misinterpreted. I meant that N scale choices are improving (more choices over previous N scale) and that the product quality of N is improving.
Again, if you don't want to believe N scale can rival HO in accuracy, you're welcome to visit my layout and its PRR-specific prototype equipment, much of which I built myself.
BTW, the Strasburg Rail Road in PA is a few miles from my family's ancestral home, and the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania across the street (not affiliated with the SRR) is why I model PRR in the steam era.
N scale has arrived at more than some level of acceptibility. I invite you to view my video layout tour:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veEvKHFGd5s