Whither DCC?

[marknewton]

Way under the OP's idea of $1500 DCC conversion costs...

Yeah, but? That $463 figure he quoted, was that the cost at MSRP? Was it the true cost? Or was it the hidden cost? Maybe it was the cost after it was buttered away?

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Mark,How can my case be dishonest when I showed full MSRP and Tony's discount prices?

Easily. First you claimed that the original assertion about the cost of conversion - $1500 - was about right, you reckoned that's roughly what you paid. But then we learn that figure includes "4 extra throttles and had 6 sound equipped locomotives". That's dishonest, since it's not a direct replacement, nor is it what the OP specified. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

When Paul Cutler pulled you up on that, you changed tack and started waffling on about "hidden costs", boosters, extra throttles and the like. More dishonesty, for the reasons outlined above.

When you were called on that, you changed tack again, and asserted the "true cost" of DCC was the MSRP, which you then went on to contradict by referring to discount prices from vendors such as Tony's. You the claimed "Heres a hard fact..IF I equipped all 50 of my DCC ready engines the cost would be $750.00". Now that's $15.00 per decoder, even less again than the MSRP you quoted.

So yes, I'd say in your determination to prove your point, you've been dishonest.

Cheers,

Mark.

[jasperofzeal]

Funny stuff!

 

I don't know if you guys saw this person's experience with DCC recently:

Ok, I guess I'm a bit excited and enthusiastic, but I just took the plunge...after doing the research and reading and listening to informed hobbyists, my new DCC system is on the way.

Here's what I decided upon:

NCE Power Cab System - the basic package, $149 at Tony's Trains

NCE Auto Switch - for the programming track/loco protection  $24.95

Three DCC Specialities PSX AR Auto Reversers (ok, I'm going a bit overboard with reverse sections, but it should add fun, and it's a big reason to me to go DCC)  $48, x 3 = $144

Total cost, not including shipping and taxes:  $318

I've also socked away $125 for decoders, which should get me around 5 decoders.  I'm looking at some relatively basic decoders to start, silent running for now, just to get going.  I've identified the  NCE D14SRP or NCE D13SRP.  I'm still a bit baffled by the decoder differences and compatibility with certain locos - it's the last thing I've researched.  I just want some that plug straight away into my DCC-ready Kato SD 40, SD40-2. GP 35 and SD 45 locos, I think that's the D14SRPs from what I can tell thus far.  Any advice here would be much appreciated....esp. if it can help me save a few bucks.   I'm planning on placing the decoder orders in the few days.

So total for the NCE starter system, the auto reversers plus 4-5 "starter" decoders is about $463.  It was a bit to swallow in a lump , but in the scheme of things, really not that much when I figured on the costs  and time I've already laid out...something i really don't want to think too much about.     And it's about  a lifetime of use/enjoyment type of investment, so I thought I'd make a solid investment. 

I obviously could have also saved $100 bucks by cutting down on the reversers, but I really wanted them, I think they'll add a lot and I figured the time to do them was now, at the early stage of my new layout.  Guess I won't eat out in a restaurant for a while. 

Folks at Tony's Trains are excellent in service, gave some good advice, as did the folks here on the forum.

It's pretty exciting move for me.  On to the brave new world!!!!

Way under the OP's idea of $1500 DCC conversion costs.  Goes to show that one can convert to DCC if need be and do it as it's appropriate for each case.

[betamax]

This is rapidly becoming a circular argument. Every time someone comes up with a point in favour of DCC, someone else brings up a point for DC. At some point it just becomes a case of splitting hairs.

No matter how you look at it, both have about the same cost. The difference is when the costs come into play.

It would be like purchasing an entire years worth of groceries in one shot. Suddenly you'd realize how much stuff you eat over a year, and how much it costs. Compared to buying a small quantity every week.

It comes down to the question of "what do you want to do?"

Spend the bucks, connect two wires, and play with your new sound equipped loco? Or spend hours laying on your back under the layout pulling wire, making connections, or wiring a rats nest behind a control panel or two. If your time isn't worth anything, DC won't be at a disadvantage in terms of labour.

Whatever you spend on DCC, you would probably spend as much for DC, if not more, on rotary or toggle switches, controllers, and spools of wire, depending on the complexity you want. DCC will be a lot more flexible in the long term too.

With DC, you have to plan ahead. More capability means more cost and complexity. Adding features will only increase the complexity. Adding more controllers, likewise. Sure, DCC controls are not cheap either, but they are essentially plug and play.

And you don't have to have a 48 hour DCC decoder installation marathon either. Slowly convert your fleet as time and money allow.

Me? I compared both methods. I thought about DC with conversion to DCC later. Then I thought it over again. The conclusion: DCC has all the advantages without the disadvantages of DC. So I bought a DCC system and two sound equipped locos at a show, and was off to the races. And I never looked back. (My DC locos still outnumber the DCC units 2:1, but I plan to change that shortly.)

[BRAKIE]

Mark,It is you that keep flogging a dead horse.

Now you said:Paul, I think Brakie goes by that old saying, "never let the facts get in the way of a good story".

I presented the prices from two sources a manufacturers web page and Tony's discount prices so all can see where I got my facts yet you continue to flog away.

 

 

Yes, because the way you've presented your case has been dishonest at best. You claim that the "true cost" of DCC is the MSRP - that's nonsense. The true cost is what you actually pay at the point of sale. And based on the discount prices you have yourself quoted, that will be less than the the MSRP. You describe this as "buttering away the true cost of DCC" only because it utterly refutes your original argument.

Mark, happy DCC user who paid less than the MSRP.

 

Mark,How can my case be dishonest when I showed full MSRP and Tony's discount prices?

So,its you that is still:

[NeO6874]

OK, now I think I see what you're getting at.  I misunderstood the premise of your argument at first reading.  

 However I disagree that the Mantua locos I have are junk.  Sure they're a little spartan in the detail department, but they're good runners and pullers. The Tyco or two that I have - now they are junk, but getting junk to work well enough on DC is a worthwile investment of time & money for me.  My "spare time" is a lot cheaper than some of you other guys, so spending the $50 on an older 'junker' and then spending 5 or 6 hours tearing it apart and making it work well is still cheaper than spending $150+ on a "good" locomotive (sans decoder).

I would LOVE to be able to afford the newer locos that are on the market right now, but school expenses come first, so I'm stuck in the "el-cheapo" realm for the time being.

[marknewton]

Marknewton - your argument about cost per decoder vs locos, while justified does
have holes in it.  I am sometimes able to buy 2-3 locos in a month, and I could not afford to install
a decoder in them, or an entire DCC system for that matter.  Now, I am buying old Mantua/Tyco
engines on the cheap from train shows, so that might have something to do with it...

There are no holes in my premise, then or now. If you can afford to buy a fleet of hundreds of locos, but are unwilling to spend the money on fitting them with decoders, that is not an inherent fault of DCC.

Your case is an interesting one. I can see why you can't afford decoders, if all you can afford is Tyco - but would you really bother putting decoders in junk like that in the first place?

But for what it's worth, I reckon that people with large fleets of Tyco are by definition collectors, and should stay out of discussions about control systems.

Cheers,

mark.

[marknewton]

Mark,It is you that keep flogging a dead horse.

Now you said:Paul, I think Brakie goes by that old saying, "never let the facts get in the way of a good story".

I presented the prices from two sources a manufacturers web page and Tony's discount prices so all can see where I got my facts yet you continue to flog away.

 

 

Yes, because the way you've presented your case has been dishonest at best. You claim that the "true cost" of DCC is the MSRP - that's nonsense. The true cost is what you actually pay at the point of sale. And based on the discount prices you have yourself quoted, that will be less than the the MSRP. You describe this as "buttering away the true cost of DCC" only because it utterly refutes your original argument.

Mark, happy DCC user who paid less than the MSRP.

[NeO6874]

OK guys, it's getting a bit hot in here...

Anyway, I don't particularly agree or disagree with any of you to the point of never listening to you again, or chalking your comments up as flame-bait.  A lot of you guys have made good points as to the pros and cons of looking at DCC vs DC.  Here's where I have problems with your arguments (and sorry if I call you out on something and it wasn't actually you saying something).

 

Marknewton - your argument about cost per decoder vs locos, while justified does have holes in it.  I am sometimes able to buy 2-3 locos in a month, and I could not afford to install a decoder in them, or an entire DCC system for that matter.  Now, I am buying old Mantua/Tyco engines on the cheap from train shows, so that might have something to do with it...

 

Brakie - your "hidden costs" really aren't that hidden.  I think I understand what you're trying to say, but it still doesn't make sense to me.  I mean, the same thing can be said for DC remote turnout control.  I can either use the solenoid included in the box (Assuming an Atlas snap-switch), or I can go spend $20+ on a Tortoise for each turnout (plus wiring and buttons and other bits to make it work right), and then there's always the manual method(s)... Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is that there can be a "hidden" cost in almost anything that you buy - you just have to know the limitations of a specific item at the time of purchase.

 

Chuck - I think my main problem with your argument is (my personal) lack of knowledge of your current implementation of a control system, so I cannot really refute or validate what you are saying concretely.  I am however missing your point of needing to learn the computer wizardry to get something to work correctly.

 

Now, I don't have DCC at the moment.  Nor do I really have a need for it.  An oval of track on a sheet of plywood works rather well with DC.  Now, I *have* bought some of the dual-mode NCE decoders to play with, as the club I'm in is trying to decide the route with which we're going to wire our new layout.  I feel that they're not too expensive, and I'll be ready to go as soon as I get a DCC system (if ever).  I do think that DCC will be the way that we all run trains in the future.

[BRAKIE]

Mark,It is you that keep flogging a dead horse.

Now you said:Paul, I think Brakie goes by that old saying, "never let the facts get in the way of a good story".

I presented the prices from two sources a manufacturers web page and Tony's discount prices so all can see where I got my facts yet you continue to flog away.

 

 

[marknewton]

So, Brakie, you've quoted some price lists - is that all you've got?

MRSP is not mandatory, everything listed can be had for less, as you well know. If the discounted decoders at Tony's average $25, then 5 out of 7 will be less than the MSRP you quoted. So why do you keep flogging this particular dead horse?

Cheers,

Mark.

[BRAKIE]

David,Show those cheap decoders.Please and thank you.

Lentz,NCE and Digitrax is the 3 DCC systems of choice.

[BRAKIE]

Let's see then..

The Facts:

DH163AT$34.99 msrp

DH163D  $29.99 msrp

DH123AT $24.99 msrp

DH163PS $32.99 msrp

DH123P  $22.99 msrp

DH163P  $32.99 mrsp

DH163IP $29.99 msrp

See:

http://www.digitrax.com/menu_mobiledecoders.php

 

for more prices..

DS64 Quad Stationary Decoder     $59.99 msrp

DS54 Quad Stationary Decoder  $79.99  msrp

See
http://www.digitrax.com/menu_statdecoders.php

I haven't even started yet with throttles but which can cost between $79.95-229.99.

Those are the facts taken from the Digitrax web page.

Even the discount prices at Tonys Train Exchange averages $ 25.00 for decoders.

See for yourself.

http://www.tonystrains.com/index.html

 

Need I say more? I think the majority of the forum members can make their decision between DC/DCC by simply checking the prices..The full and discounted prices are there for all to see on Tony's web page.

 

 

[marknewton]

I "joust" with Brakie on the Atlas forum many times, but he always has good reasons for what he thinks.  And he does have facts.

Hmm. I've "jousted" with him on another thread here recently, where his facts were in rather short supply. Any facts that I brought to the discussion were airily dismissed, so I think we should agree to disagree on that subject.

All the best,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Actually you can't butter the full MSRP away

I'm sorry, Brakie, but I have no idea what you mean by that phrase. Presumably it's local vernacular, which as an Australian I'm unfamiliar with. Can you please rephrase your statement?

After all anybody that can check DCC manufacturers web pages can add up the cost of conversion..Even using Tony's Train Exchange prices one can add up the real costs.

Yes you can, and in every instance the cost, even at MSRP, is considerably less than the figures originally quoted, and subsequently posted by you. So you've just refuted your own argument...

As an example, I have an NCE system bought here in Australia, where the prices are higher than the US. Almost every item of rollingstock I have is fitted with a decoder - I run mostly interurbans and EMUs - and yet my total spending so far has been around $AUD900. And yes, I have sound, etc.

So troll attack away and you still not change the real cost of DCC conversion.

I always reckon that unfounded accusations of trolling are a sign that you can't argue a case on it's own merits. I'm neither trolling nor attacking you. I 'm simply reiterating Paul's point that you're being tricky and selective with your facts and figures.

Its a choice one must make based on solid facts..

Indeed, which makes me wonder why you insist on supporting your position with such rubbery figures as the ones you've presented so far.

Cheers,

Mark.

[BRAKIE]

Paul,No clogs have slipped here..Heres a hard fact..IF I equipped all 50 of my DCC ready engines the cost would be $750.00..Now some hidden cost a new DCC user might be in a booster and if he/she wants extra throttles-let's say UT4s those are $79.95 each.How about stationary decoders for switches(if desired) $59.99 each.

See where the "hidden" costs lays to a new DCC user?

 

Of course we know there is basic dcc with the Bachmann DCC set at $133.00($74.99 discount) plus the cost of  a few decoders and you are in basic DCC at very minimal cost.

 

Paul,All I am saying it can cost mega bucks if one wants a full blown DCC system and you should know that.I found that out with my adventure into the world of DCC.

[Paul3]

Brakie,
Have you slipped a cog?  Why can't we "butter the full MSRP away" (if it means what I think it means)?  You keep going on and on about the "real costs" as if we can't add it up ourselves.  Well, here's an example for you.  Say you have the following loco roster (which, oddly enough, is what I own currently on my layout right now):

LLP2K -
3 x PA-1
2 x FA/B-1
1 x S-1

LLP1K -
4 x RDC
2 x DL-109
1 x RS-11

Atlas -
3 x S-1/2
1 x RS-3
1 x C-425
2 x RS-11

Kato -
1 x RS-2

Athearn -
1 x RS-3

Bachmann Spectrum -
1 x 44tonner

That's 23 locos.  These are the following decoders one would need to convert them all to DCC:

Digitrax -
8 x DH123D
5 x DH123P
4 x DH163A0
1 x DZ123
1 x DN121

Tony's -
3 x AtlasS1234
1 x TTE RS-2

The costs for these decoders are as follows at Tony's:
DH123D: $15.95 ea. or 4 @ $15.50 ea. ($19.99 MSRP ea.) = $124.00 ($159.92)
DH123P: $19.50 ea. or 4 @ $18.50 ea. ($19.99 MSRP ea.) = $93.50 ($99.95)
DH165A0: $22.95 ea. or 4 @ $20.95 ea. ($26.99 MSRP ea.) = $83.80 ($107.96)
DZ123: $15.95 ($19.99 MSRP ea.) = $15.95 ($19.99)
DN121: $19.95 ($24.95 MSRP ea.) = $19.95 ($24.95)
AtlasS1234: $25.95 ea. ($29.95 ea.) = $77.85 ($89.95)
TTE RS-2: $25.95 ea. ($29.95 MSRP ea.) = $25.95 ($29.95)

Doing the math, all these decoders will cost you $441.00.  The MSRP for all these decoders would cost you $532.67. 

Meanwhile, say you want a wireless walkaround DCC system with 4 throttle jacks.  You can get a DT400R for $179.00 ($229.99 MSRP), a UR91 receiver $114.95 (149.99 MSRP), a Zephyr $159.95 ($19.99), and 4 UP5 panel jacks for $15.95 ea. ($16.95 MSRP ea.).  This is my home system, in fact.  That totals $517.70 or $647.77 MSRP.

Grand total to convert to a wireless DCC system with 23 locos = $958.70
Grand total using MSRP = $1,180.44
Savings = $221.74 (minus shipping)

Where is the hidden cost, Brakie?  I have a 25' x 50' layout and a good number of locos on it.  Even so, it's still not even close to $1500 as quoted by our orginal poster.  He would have to convert another 20-25 locos to get in the $1500 range.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[cjcrescent]

Larry, I have to agree with marknewton on this.

I started converting to DCC about 8 yrs ago. That was when I discovered that to just wire the last layout I'll ever own, I would have to lay out at least $2500 for rotary switches to allow for the 5 cabs I wanted, with 1 spare set of contacts for lights and one OFF position. Add in at least another $500 or so for proper size wire, panel and structure lights, etc. This would be for a three level 23' x 17' layout geared to heavy operations with multiple operators for local switching, branchline mine runs, local and thru passenger trains, 2 staging yards, and 3 active interchanges. Counting yard tracks, Rndhse tracks, mainlines, sidings and spurs, wiring for DC would result in well over 100 blocks. This also doesn't take into consideration the fact I would have to get some more hand helds so I could really have those 5 cabs, (I only had 2 that worked).

DCC was such a better economical choice, in fact, it was the only logical one I could make. A large number of modelers in my area had already converted to Digitrax DCC, and my club was doing the same. I started with an Empire Builder from Digitrax, and last year accquired a Super Chief. I have 21 locos total, 15 are steam, of which 9 are brass. Of the remaining steamers, 2 are Spectrums, the rest are kits or scratched. All had already been at least regeared and/or remotored before DCC, (Specs didn't need it). Of the 6 diesels I own, 1 is Atlas/Kato, 1 is P2K, the rest are Hobbytown chassis kits, (remotored only). All but 3 steamers and 1 diesel have decoders. I have also never spent more than $18 for a single decoder.

Loconet cable is no problem, as the day I retired from the hospital, the IT dept was throwing away a 1000' roll of CAT4 wire. They were having to rewire all the networks and were having to go to CAT5E. They gave me the wire. I have substantial network hardware training and experience, so I can make my own cable. The six conductor plugs needed for Loconet are less than 15 cents apiece here.

A friend gave me all the 12ga wire I need for my buses, for helping him with his layout. Plus I already have enough 22ga wire for as many feeders as I'll every need. This wire would have been a little light to use for anything requiring runs of more than 6' or so.

I have 4 AR units but will have to get 4 more to cover the upper levels, but that is a long time away and these also can be purchased 1 at a time. I also need to acquire several more of the UP5 panels to have total of 10, but again, several years away before I need them all.

All in all, I have spent over the past 8 years, about $1000, total, with only about an additional $300 more to spend and the entire control system is complete. That is still only about 1/2 the cost of the wiring and hardware I would have needed to accomplish the same thing in DC. Remember this is for a 23' x 17' layout. 

The costs posted above are what I have paid over the past 8 years. My system is totally basic, no radio/wireless, sound, signals, etc for me. Don't want it or need it. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, Unless you want a system with literally every bell and whistle available, you can get DCC even for a large layout for less than $1500. I respect anyone who knows what they want in a control system and I expect others to respect my wants as well. If DC is your choice, good for you! I have not and will not try to "convert" you. But if you're like me, (getting older, stiffer, blinder, and esp broker!), anything to help make wiring easier, is a definite plus in my book! 

Like others have commented, so far this has been a very civil conversation. But I do have to wonder, where is the OP?

 

[pastorbob]

I "joust" with Brakie on the Atlas forum many times, but he always has good reasons for what he thinks.  And he does have facts.

I posted earlier about my experiences with DCC, which are mostly positive.  And yes, I do have some bucks tied up.  With around 200 diesels, my decoder costs are interesting, although I have a lot of Atlas with decoders already installed, but which also adds to the price.

I use NCE radio wireless, but also have a cab buss on the layout, in fact, two cab busses because of the size.  I have the command station and four boosters (4 power districts).  I have 5 Procabs, 8 CAB04PR wireless cabs (my favorites) and another 7 of the original CAB04P pre wireless.  My crews attending operating sessions generally prefer the cabo4 cabs for running as they don't care for the size of the NCE T bone.  I prefer cab04p because they pay more attention to the running than looking at the display and having wrecks.

However, the sound units, which number around 10 out of the 200 require the T bone Procabs.

I also have a separate NCE command station and a booster in the work room where I do testing, breaking in new engines, etc. 

I have also been buying NCE since 1999, so the cost is spread over 8 years time.  I have a lot invested in NCE but that was my choice, just like Brakie makes his choice to stay DC.

My problem with DCC is it is being harder and harder for a non technician to understand and maintain.  I recently sent two NEW repeaters for the radio back to NCE because I "fried them".  I am no way an electronics expert.  My degrees are in theology, although I also worked as a Programmer, Systems Analyst, Systems Engineer for all of my adult life with Santa Fe and then the Federal Reserve Bank.  That does not make me an electronics expert.  Now in retirement, I still pastor a church and run trains.  And at my "older age" I don't pick up new technology easily.  But I still like and support DCC.

Bob

 

 

[BRAKIE]

If we were comparing DC to DCC, then yes, I would use MSRP.to compare them.  However, what is being discussed was the original poster's claim that he would have to spend $1500 or more on DCC.  In that case, real street prices should be used if you want to be fair about it.

Paul, I think Brakie goes by that old saying, "never let the facts get in the way of a good story".

Cheers,

Mark.

 

Actually you can't butter the full MSRP away..After all anybody that can check DCC manufacturers web pages can add up the cost of conversion..Even using Tony's Train Exchange prices one can add up the real costs.

So troll attack away and you still not change the real cost of DCC conversion.

Its a choice one must make based on solid facts..

[marknewton]

If we were comparing DC to DCC, then yes, I would use MSRP.to compare them.  However, what is being discussed was the original poster's claim that he would have to spend $1500 or more on DCC.  In that case, real street prices should be used if you want to be fair about it.

Paul, I think Brakie goes by that old saying, "never let the facts get in the way of a good story".

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Granted you were addressing Mark (who is a DCC user,) but, as one of the people you seem to be flailing away at, let me fire back.

When I could afford 3 locos a MONTH, they all had open frame motors and noisy gearboxes.  That period only lasted a few months, but it was the time when I acquired most of my roster.  At todays prices, I can either buy three locos a YEAR or spend the money on my last in this lifetime layout - or on converting to a system that has no significant advantages FOR ME, and major disadvantages.

My position is reasoned and logical, not emotional...

Chuck , I can only speak for myself, but I don't regard you as a DCC critic, nor do I think your position is anything other than reasoned. If anything, I think you'd be one of the few blokes around who can mount a sensible argument about why DC is the best choice for you, given what you model and the way you intend to do it.

Going completely OT now, have a look at this:

http://www.cmn.com.hk/en/cmn.php?act=readproduct&cateid=3

The modern buses are nice, but have a look at the Isuzu "bonnet bus"! The models are 1/76th, so they're slightly overscale for HOj, but not by much! I'm going to order a couple on Monday...

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

I agree with your thoughts on this part and it's too bad too many people fall into this mentality.  Baby steps is the way to go.

Absolutely. Mind you, this approach works across the board, for all aspects of modelling. If you had to pay for everything related to building a layout up front, there'd not be many modellers at all!

On this part I partially disagree since I'm one of those "bowerbirds?" in that I want to amass a large fleet of locomotives.  My purpose in doing this is that I want to collect at least one of each type of engine that I like.  If I plan on running them, then I get more than one.  The difference though is that for the most part, I just want to display them, so I get or make dummy locos.  I do have powered locos too, but if and when I venture into DCC, I wont convert every single one I own to run on DCC, I'll probably just do some.  All the locos I have, I'm making sure they're of equal quality and realism in the details deptartment.

Jasper, based on that statement, I wouldn't regard you as a bowerbird. You obviously have a plan, or at least some personal guidelines, for buying locos. To me, bowerebirds are the ones who can't go into a hobby shop without buying a loco, regardless of what it is, and so they wind up with a huge and disparate collection of everything from Tyco to high-end RTR or even brass. They still have the first loco they ever bought when they were 12 years old, even though it's no more than junk these days. These are the blokes who are critical of DCC on the spurious grounds of expense. I don't think you belong in that category...

And since I've referred to bowerbirds, which are not found in the US, have a look at this link, I hope you find it interesting:

http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/npws.nsf/Content/Satin+bowerbirds

We have a male Satin Bowerbird living in the bush near our house, and he's got every blue clothespeg we ever owned!

All the best,

Mark.

[modelmaker51]

I spent about $650 on my NCE ProCab 5 amp system including 20 $11.50 NCE decoders to start up.

[marknewton]

Mark Newton,
You noticed that, eh?  Those that seem to complain the loudest about the cost of DCC have the largest locomotive fleets...which indicates to me that they can darn well afford the cost of converting to DCC, they just choose not to (but are trying to justify that on economic grounds rather than on their emotional ones).  I have little sympathy for those that have hundreds of locos who complain about money...I therefore find it vastly ironic that those who are buying 3 locos a month (or more!) complain and complain about much DCC would cost them.

We are in total agreement. This kind of double standard always amazes me!

Cheers,

Mark.

[Paul3]

Brakie,
If we were comparing DC to DCC, then yes, I would use MSRP.to compare them.  However, what is being discussed was the original poster's claim that he would have to spend $1500 or more on DCC.  In that case, real street prices should be used if you want to be fair about it. 

BTW, I don't know why you feel it's "unbelieveable" that a digital, dual-cab, back-lit, multi-line, DCC radio/IR throttle is $230 MSRP that can run trains, throw switches, program decoders, display a fast clock, that can find locomotives with transponding, and can turn the whole layout on and off.  Oh, and it's got a built in flashlight, too.  Compare that to Aristo's wireless DC throttle (which doesn't even have a display).  With one extra receiver, it would cost $303 MSRP...and that's not even close to what the DT400R throttle brings to the table.

I don't know what you mean by "buttering up the true cost of DCC".  The "true" cost is how much you actually pay...otherwise it wouldn't be "true".  Right?  So why insist on using MSRP to determine the "true cost" of DCC?

Also, please stop bringing your locos into the discussion.  What does that have to do with the price of rice in China?  The whole point of this discussion was the cost of converting to DCC, not starting fresh in the hobby.  How much you spent on your sound locos has nothing to do with how much it would cost someone to convert to DCC.

tomikawaTT,
"Flailing away at"?  News to me.  I thought I was merely expressing my opinion.  Oh, well...

As for the rest, I wasn't talking about you or those like you, but those that cry poor mouth while having a model railroader hobby budget that would make Bill Gates blush (well, no, not really, but it's for humorous/dramatic effect).  I've seen it on the forums for years.  It's the "Poor little me, I can't convert to DCC because I can't afford it!," yet in another thread they say, "Look at my three new BLI's I just bought for $900!"  Obviously, these modelers that can buy multiple locos per month can afford DCC, they simply choose not to.  However, your situation is different, and certainly not the subject matter of my opinion.  To you, it's not worth it, which is far different from saying that you can't afford it.

BTW, aren't those old DC cabs sweet?  Heh.  That particular one (Cab 7) dates from the late 1970's, but it's a copy of our old ones that went back to 1953.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[jesrr]

   I converted to dcc buying the lenz100 system, 5amp power pack. 2 atlas engines with qsi sound and the cost was under $1000.00.  I think the OP is looking for justification to with DCC. sooo to be dcc or not to be dcc .

[tomikawaTT]

Mark Newton,
Those that seem to complain the loudest about the cost of DCC have the largest locomotive fleets...which indicates to me that they can darn well afford the cost of converting to DCC, they just choose not to (but are trying to justify that on economic grounds rather than on their emotional ones).  I have little sympathy for those that have hundreds of locos who complain about money.  Sorry.  Let me put it this way, I have been a "serious" model railroader for 17 years (and I'm 32), and even so I've barely cobbled together a fleet of approx. 50 locos.  I buy an average of about 3 locos a year (and install decoders in them).  I therefore find it vastly ironic that those who are buying 3 locos a month (or more!) complain and complain about much DCC would cost them.  'Scuse me while I break out the pity party wagon for them.

Granted you were addressing Mark (who is a DCC user,) but, as one of the people you seem to be flailing away at, let me fire back.

When I could afford 3 locos a MONTH, they all had open frame motors and noisy gearboxes.  That period only lasted a few months, but it was the time when I acquired most of my roster.  At todays prices, I can either buy three locos a YEAR or spend the money on my last in this lifetime layout - or on converting to a system that has no significant advantages FOR ME, and major disadvantages.

My position is reasoned and logical, not emotional.  In order to do in DCC what I now do with the modified MZL system and Analog DC I would have to acquire a lot of skills I don't currently possess, figure out new ways of convincing an electronic device to do things I can already do easily and cheaply and invest financial resources I really need elsewhere - for NO net gain.

Also, the 'toe in the water' approach won't work when the object is to operate a very dense prototype schedule, using a large number of powered units.  For that, it's either all MZL or all DCC (with a computer to automate some functions I now handle automatically with a couple of resistors, nickel-a-piece diodes and switch point contacts.)  Since I already have the components necessary for MZL, but would have to buy everything new for DCC...

PA&ERR,
If you think that panel is bad, take a look at my old club's Cab 7 from our South Division:

All the reason we needed to convert to DCC in 1998.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

Well, if my MZL panels looked anything like that, I'd convert in a heartbeat - just give up eating for a few months to get the funds.  Definitely NOT user friendly!

On my layout, the 'cab' has a speed control, reverse switch, momentum on-off switch and brake button.  Power routing is handled either on zone panels that can be understood and operated by a primary school age visitor, or by a CTC op at the master control panel (where he can see the entire railroad.)  If there's a crew operating, not just the resident lone wolf, all an engineer has to concern himself with is the action of his one train.  Even operating alone, all the engineer has to do is set ONE rotary switch per zone (station) and throw turnouts.

Hey!  Sounds kind of like DCC from the engineer's viewpoint, doesn't it.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[BRAKIE]

Paul,Check the MRSP on DCC..Its unbelievable a throttle can cost up to $229.99!!

Sure,I refuse to pay full price but,I don't believe in buttering up the true cost of DCC(or any thing else) with discount prices like some do.After all a quick check of any DCC manufacturers web page will prove the MRSP of DCC.

As far as locomotive prices the total I quoted for my Empire Builder II,4 extra throttles and the 6 sound equipped locomotives was what I paid.

[Paul3]

Brakie wrote:

Actually the $1500.00 is about the right price for a quaility DCC system and quailty DCC equipped locomotives...Even the the Zephyr  is $199.99..Now add extra throttles,booster(if needed) and the price of DCC adds up..I know..I have a Empire Builder II and 4 extra throttles and had 6 sound equipped locomotives..Final cost around $1600.00..A real eye opener for me.

C'mon, Brakie, you can't use the cost of the locomotives in the total tally of converting to DCC.  You might as well include the cost of structure kits, ground foam and layout lumber for all the good it does.

Also, if you're going to be bringing real costs into this, you should know more than anyone that you don't pay full MSRP if you can help it (goodness knows, we've heard you say that a lot over the years).  The Zephyr's $199.99 price tag is MSRP, and can be had easily for $159.95 at Tony's Train eXchange any day of the week.

Mark Newton,
You noticed that, eh?  Those that seem to complain the loudest about the cost of DCC have the largest locomotive fleets...which indicates to me that they can darn well afford the cost of converting to DCC, they just choose not to (but are trying to justify that on economic grounds rather than on their emotional ones).  I have little sympathy for those that have hundreds of locos who complain about money.  Sorry.  Let me put it this way, I have been a "serious" model railroader for 17 years (and I'm 32), and even so I've barely cobbled together a fleet of approx. 50 locos.  I buy an average of about 3 locos a year (and install decoders in them).  I therefore find it vastly ironic that those who are buying 3 locos a month (or more!) complain and complain about much DCC would cost them.  'Scuse me while I break out the pity party wagon for them.

PA&ERR,
If you think that panel is bad, take a look at my old club's Cab 7 from our South Division:

All the reason we needed to convert to DCC in 1998.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************