betamax wrote: loathar wrote: betamax wrote:No matter how you look at it, both have about the same cost. The difference is when the costs come into play.It would have cost me about $300 to block out and wire my 100sq.ft. layout for DC with a couple MRC DC controllers. And I wouldn't have the extra cost of decoders for 15 locos. It's going to cost me about $1300 to do it DCC like I want it with decoders for those 15 locos. Any future DC locos I buy will need the extra cost of a decoder added. OR I could buy DCC locos that are about $50-$100 more on average than the DC versions.Plain and simple. DCC costs more than DC. But I'm willing to pay it for the ease of operation and extended capability.Your numbers are a little high.According to a dealer I spoke with yesterday, you can get the NCE ProCab for under $200, everything you need for DCC. With 15 decoders at $20 each, another $300. So for about the same money as a complete top-of-the-line Digitrax starter system, you can convert completely to DCC.Some of the posters are gold plating everything DCC to enhance their position that DC is cheaper.(I'm allowed to quote outrageous figures, since everyone else is.)
loathar wrote: betamax wrote:No matter how you look at it, both have about the same cost. The difference is when the costs come into play.It would have cost me about $300 to block out and wire my 100sq.ft. layout for DC with a couple MRC DC controllers. And I wouldn't have the extra cost of decoders for 15 locos. It's going to cost me about $1300 to do it DCC like I want it with decoders for those 15 locos. Any future DC locos I buy will need the extra cost of a decoder added. OR I could buy DCC locos that are about $50-$100 more on average than the DC versions.Plain and simple. DCC costs more than DC. But I'm willing to pay it for the ease of operation and extended capability.
betamax wrote:No matter how you look at it, both have about the same cost. The difference is when the costs come into play.
It's going to cost me about $1300 to do it DCC like I want it with decoders for those 15 locos. Any future DC locos I buy will need the extra cost of a decoder added. OR I could buy DCC locos that are about $50-$100 more on average than the DC versions.
Plain and simple. DCC costs more than DC. But I'm willing to pay it for the ease of operation and extended capability.
No...My figures are EXACTLY correct. If you re-read my statement, I said to do a DCC system the way "I" want to do it. The system "I" want...the booster "I" want...the decoders "I" want.Not just looking through web sites to find the cheapest stuff and saying "THAT'S good enough"I don't want to buy the cheapest stuff, end up regretting it and half to replace it down the road.
Sorry about the funeral.
So, when they extended DST congress cut a month off of your model RR time? Seems you should get compensated for that, somehow!
As far as the DCC topic goes, it will always raise a ruckus. I think that both DC and DCC users like to feel like the decision that they made was 'right', some don't realize that what was right for them isn't always what is right for another. Sometimes this leads to misinformation (not always deliberate), or outdated information being spread. So the mudslinging ensues.
I'll express an opinon, based on your description of your layout and equipment. It is freely offered, and may freely be ignored, and I won't be offended. Much!
From the sound of it, I think you would really benefit from DCC. You've gat a large layout, but what you can do with it seems to me to be quite limited by your control system. You have few enough locomotives that converting them won't break the bank, especially if you do it over time.
Depending on your wiring you might, or might not need to make some changes. I'd be temped to start out not. If you do need changes, they won't be horrid.
What sytem you'd want would depend on how many throttles you want and how many locos you want to run at once. There's also the question of whether you want wireless throttles. Of course, that drives up the cost, nothing is for free.
On the other hand, if you are content with how your layout is controlled and operates now, there is no reason to change. I'm thinking that since you are expressing an interest, you arenot content with the current state, but that's just an assumption on my part.
Anyway, rest assured that you were not responsible for the 'fight'. It sort of comes with the territory. You just have to weed through it and pick out the good stuff. If you want to continue, I'm sure the 'combatants' will be more than willing to return!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Hi,
As they used to say in the late '60s, "RIGHT ON"!!!!!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Given the comments, it may have been prudent to have simply "run away" as many of you had suspected........ No, I've been out-of-town on late summer vacation, followed (unfortunately) with an out-of-town funeral ......... Indeed, despite the fact that -- for political reasons -- I had agreed many years ago to She Who Must Be Obeyed's edict that Model Railroading Season Shall Not Commence Until The Demise Of Daylight Savings Time, I was still unable this past weekend to jump in because of other commitments.
As stated earlier, I have a 34 x 30 foot HO bi-level layout, or to be precise, two 34 x 30 layouts, one on top of each other, each independently controlled by an MRC 260, with a cross-over at grade to move from one level to another.
I have 18 locomotives (3 steam; 15 diesel), some of which were advertised as "DCC ready" but none of which actually possess a decoder. Most are Proto 2000; the steamers are Rivorossi.
I have already conceded my woeful ignorance of DCC in general, have consumed enough crow to last a lifetime and do appreciate the "dumbed down" explanations many of you have attempted to provide me. (Crow's not bad, incidentally, with a little curry and peprika, served with cranberry sauce....)
While I am sure there are many modelers in SW MO who would gladly take me by the hand and offer to help me through the process of conversion, I have not actively solicited assistance and am not personally acquainted with anyone who has significant knowledge in the field. The major source of (mis)information I have received following the death of the owner of the closest thing we had here to a "knowledgeable LHS owner" has been second and third-hand "horror stories" which this forum has repeatedly reminded me of late are untrue.
Having commenced this thread, which BTW I had NOT started as a way to pick a fight, may I conclude with a simple "Mea Culpa" and request permission to return to my family and the upkeep of my dwelling house.
Phoebe Vet wrote:The reason that you can still buy both systems is because some people are always looking to expand the envelope, enjoying the aquisition of new knowledge, and always wanting something more, while other people are happy with "because that's the way we have always done it".Neither person is wrong. Different strokes for different folks.Liberal: Constant growth and exploration.Conservative: If it ain't broke don't fix it.There is no reason the two cannot co-exist.It's your hobby, do what makes you happy!Don't try to make others follow your chosen path.
The reason that you can still buy both systems is because some people are always looking to expand the envelope, enjoying the aquisition of new knowledge, and always wanting something more, while other people are happy with "because that's the way we have always done it".
Neither person is wrong. Different strokes for different folks.
Liberal: Constant growth and exploration.
Conservative: If it ain't broke don't fix it.
There is no reason the two cannot co-exist.
It's your hobby, do what makes you happy!
Don't try to make others follow your chosen path.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
loathar wrote: marknewton wrote:Your case is an interesting one. I can see why you can't afford decoders, if all you can afford is Tyco - but would you really bother putting decoders in junk like that in the first place?mark.I will be putting cheap $13 decoders in my old Tyco,LL and Bachmanns. I still like some of them. I'm not blocking out my layout and I'm planning on using a PA2 wireless. So I have to add a decoder to anything I want to run. (cheap junk or not) And I don't have a problem with that.
marknewton wrote:Your case is an interesting one. I can see why you can't afford decoders, if all you can afford is Tyco - but would you really bother putting decoders in junk like that in the first place?mark.
Coming from a slightly different perspective - a DC user who will likely eventually convert. It's just not a high priority for a variety of reasons.
Whether DCC is the right answer or not depends on several factors:
- DCC is more expensive upfront, especially if you already have DC controllers on hand. Actual cost is dependent on how many operators (throttles), complexity of layout, number of locos to convert, and several other factors.
- DCC gives a significant increase in operating flexibility. Not having to learn and manipulate block controls, especially on layouts where trains operate in close proximity and/or share trackage within short time periods, is a huge benefit. Doesn't matter whether layout is large or small, the advantage of not having to constantly monitor block power assignments because of the sharing of track in short time frames between trains is one of DCC's biggest benefits. Conversely, a single operator, or multiple operators on a layout where trains are well separated by time and/or distance, don't have as much of a problem dealing with DC block power assignment.
- Operational use of reversing loops are much more convenient with DCC. Auto-reversers only have to prevent short circuits, instead of having to prevent polarity reversal as with DC. Due to all the logic permutations, implementation of auto-reversing in DC becomes very difficult for any thing other than a direct run-through reverse loop. As soon as the DC reversing section has provisions for switching near the section boundaries, DC auto-reversers become impractical. I will not implement DC reversing loops on 4x8 layouts because the timing of toggle flipping becomes too critical to keep trains running continuously.
- Wiring is simpler for DCC. If you don't already understand the intricacies of DC wiring, you never have to learn. A few simple rules on running power and throttle buss are all you have to learn.
- Additional functions such as turning lights on/off, sound, etc., are much easier to add in DCC than in DC. And even when these functions are added in DC, the loco(s) being addressed are selected through the DC block power assignment system rather than the calling up the DCC decoder address.
- Wireless and tethered walk-around throttles are readily available in DCC. Throttle bus design is standard for a given manufacturer. While wireless and tethered walk-around throttles exist in DC, implementation of the throttle bus has to be custom in nearly every case to properly interface with the DC block power assignment system.
In my particular case, my locomotive fleet needs building/rebuilding/tuning in any case. Less than 50% is "RTR", and most is out-of-production in either case. I prefer to get a loco running smoothly before considering a decoder install, which isn't trivial in small HO 1900-era engines. The layout is really 2 separate operations, HO and HOn3, with no dual gauge planned. Both operations feature switching at small towns with minimal main line in between. It's only planned for one operator with provision (and certainly room) for a second. "Sequential", not simultaneous, operations are the current expectation. When I am done with train X, then it's time to do task B with train Y.
My planned opertional scheme, the state of my locomotives, and the separation of the layout into defined operating areas all negate many of the advantages of DCC. Again, I will probably eventually convert to DCC so I can play with the modular guys and sound, but until I am ready to do so, it's a low priority. I use "best practice" DC wiring - powered frogs, points insulated from each other and same polarity as stock rails, every separate section of rail with its own feeder, etc - so conversion should be just a matter of substituting the DCC system for a power pack and adding decoders where necessary when the time comes.
my thoughts, your choices
loathar wrote: It's going to cost me about $1300 to do it DCC like I want it with decoders for those 15 locos. Any future DC locos I buy will need the extra cost of a decoder added. OR I could buy DCC locos that are about $50-$100 more on average than the DC versions. What? At least in N scale, a decoder equipped loco is about $20 more than the DC version, more or less the cost of a decoder.Plain and simple. DCC costs more than DC. But I'm willing to pay it for the ease of operation and extended capability. Bold parts are why it is an apples to organges comparison, at some level.
It's going to cost me about $1300 to do it DCC like I want it with decoders for those 15 locos. Any future DC locos I buy will need the extra cost of a decoder added. OR I could buy DCC locos that are about $50-$100 more on average than the DC versions. What? At least in N scale, a decoder equipped loco is about $20 more than the DC version, more or less the cost of a decoder.
Plain and simple. DCC costs more than DC. But I'm willing to pay it for the ease of operation and extended capability. Bold parts are why it is an apples to organges comparison, at some level.
Well said, Paul.
If I might summarize:
Cost- The difference between DC and DCC when starting out is darned close to negligible. You can spend more with DC, but get added capability. Cost to convert a DC layout is most likely less than you expect, based on the uninformed rumors that seem to abound.
Wiring- Not nearly as difficult as some want to make it sound. If you layout works on DC it will probably work on DCC. If you need a few added feeders it won't be that big a deal, most likely. Wiring a new layout (assuming cab/block control for the DC case) will almost certainly be easier in DC.
Capability- I won't say that DC can't be made to do what DC can, though there are some cases where that is at least very close to the truth. But, DCC can give you more capability without adding custom hardware, special control systems, etc. And I think there is more capability yet to be tapped.
I will continue to stand by the statement that a new layout, with very few exceptions, is going to be more cost effective, easier to build, and have more capability with DCC.
bnycrail,If you're going to criticize anything, you've got to have your facts straight. That's true in any debate, whether it be DC/DCC, Ford/Chevy, USA/USSR, Earth/Mars...whatever. So when someone starts a critical thread on a known "hot button" topic while also, ahem, demonstrating their lack of knowledge on the subject matter, the result will be, um, lively (to say the least). Throw in the fact that you disappeared for a week and people start to wonder if you were serious or just trolling...
To quickly explain DCC in layman's terms, the power is the signal, there is no "carrier". Think of what an AC current looks like...a smooth sine wave going back and forth from positive to negative equally.
DCC by comparison is a square wave signal where the length of time at each peak or valley determines whether it's a "1" or a "0".
By using these "1" and "0" wave signals, the digital system components can talk to each other. It also means that as long as you have any power, you will receive the full DCC signal. These signals run in groups called "packets", and usually run in the following order: Preamble, Address Data Byte, Instruction Data Byte, and Error Detection Byte. To simplify that, the Preamble is sort of like "listen up!", the Address Byte is talking to one specific decoder like "1234", the Instruction Byte is telling that address, for example, to go forward at 50% throttle, while the Error Detection is like a double check of the data sent.
You are correct in that to take advantage of most of the DCC features, you do have to spend no small amount of money. And that's including connecting your computer to the layout, adding signalling, block detection, stationary decoders for switches and grade crossings, sound effects, transponding, and much, much more. But the same can be said of DC, too. If you want advanced features in DC control like block detection and signals and working grade crossing circuits and so on, it ain't cheap either.
However, IMHO you can get a lot of advanced features in DCC for less time and money than if you tried to accomplish the same thing in DC. Basic DC will most certainly always be cheaper than DCC, but once you start adding advanced features, DCC becomes not only cost competitive, but at times can actually cost less than DC.
In regards to R/C for locos, there's already a system out there that uses track power. It was reviewed in Model Railroad News a while back. Their receivers were approx. $40 ea. last I checked. My major problem with this idea is that if that company ever goes out of business, you're sunk. If Digitrax goes out tomorrow, all I have to do is plug in a new command station and replace my throttle and I'm good because DCC is an NMRA Standard and is supported by a host of different companies.
You do not have to drop feeders every 3 to 4 feet for DCC. Remember, with DCC the power is the signal so if you have power, you have signal. I have a 200' mainline on my single-power-supply DCC layout, and I've only dropped feeders every 9 feet to my 14 AWG buss and even that is probably overkill. As a matter of course, we should be soldering wire bonds or feeders to every rail, but that's the same whether it's DC or DCC. These "horror stories" you've heard are mostly just that...stories (IOW, fiction). DCC does need clean track, but no more so than DC.
MR's supposed pro-DCC bias is easy to explain (and no, it's not just because DCC'ers buy advertizing). MR has always been ahead of the curve. They always how the biggest, the best, & the most expensive layouts, etc. The cream of the crop, as it were. They also go for advanced concepts like CTC-16, Operations, and Tony Koester's latest subject (whatever it is). They don't show your typical bedroom layout too often, they don't show too many incomplete layouts, and they don't concentrate on simple electrical designs for running in circles. DCC is getting more popular, getting less expensive with more and better features every year. Since MR has always been pushing the envelope, their continual inclusion of DCC in their magazine is to be expected as DCC is on the leading edge.
BTW, not for nothing, but I have taught many a retiree how to operate DCC throttles and how to install decoders at my RR club. Take a look at our website's front page if you want to see about half our membership and note the average age (I'm the one with the beard and the hat holding the sign): www.ssmrc.org
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Oy, I have such a headache!
To our original asker, please don't consign yourself to the ranks of the luddite for the reasons you state just now. If you really can't bring yourself to convert for sentimental reasons, that is understandable, as it would be if you simply had a paucity of life left, or cash...which ever comes first. But to stand on comfort and familiarity is no way to go through life, if you will excuse such a statement from me for its outright patronization. As an educator, I get very uneasy when I hear folks say they're too old, as if they have two or three more important things to do before they time-expire next week. Or, that they are simply too age-addled to get their minds around all they they must learn. For the very same reasons that you had the drive and discipline to ask, if we are to take your asking at face value, you would find yourself mastering whichever system you eventually buy as easily as you master the dash controls in your new car. It's all about trains; the tracks and wiring is in place, you know how the trains perform in DC, and all that stands in your way is a modest outlay of cash for a system and a dozen cheapo decoders. We can talk you through the installation if it'll make the difference for you...by phone if necessary.
I always tell myself that I don't want to get old before I really am, and even then I don't want to miss a single development that pertains to my living before I say good-bye. I tell people that staying young and vital means getting out of your skin once in a while. Keeps the brain young, neural networks young and fresh. Let the body age as it must, but keep the mind young.
Sorry...end of lecture.
Nike had it right...just do it.
-Crandell
bnycrail wrote:OK, I thought I would sit back and wait to hear as many viewpoints as possible before responding....Cost, for example, is undoubtedly much lower than it was back in the early 1990s when I contemplated a DCC upgrade. And, lacking any electronic engiineering background, my use of the term "sub-carrier" was obviously misplaced. (Can someone "dumb-down" an explanation, then, of how DCC actually works? It had been my understanding the track carried some sort of signal, recognized only by the particular decoder programmed to that address.) But still, in order to take advantage of most of the features of DCC, a considerable capital investment is still necessary.
OK, I thought I would sit back and wait to hear as many viewpoints as possible before responding....
Cost, for example, is undoubtedly much lower than it was back in the early 1990s when I contemplated a DCC upgrade. And, lacking any electronic engiineering background, my use of the term "sub-carrier" was obviously misplaced. (Can someone "dumb-down" an explanation, then, of how DCC actually works? It had been my understanding the track carried some sort of signal, recognized only by the particular decoder programmed to that address.) But still, in order to take advantage of most of the features of DCC, a considerable capital investment is still necessary.
bnycrail,
Good to hear back from you.
A simple explanation of DCC might go something like this:
DCC allows you the ability to independently control a locomotive (or locomotives) - even if they are on the same track or block. A DCC system is made up of the following components:
Is that simple enough?
bnycrail, I will still disagree with your statement that it will take a "considerable capital investment" to "take advantage of most of the features of DCC". A good starter DCC system and one (1) decoder installed into one of your locomotives: <$200. You can now take advantage of all of the features of DCC with that set up.
When I first got into DCC, I did it with a Bachmann E-Z Command and two decoders for <$100. However, I was limited in what I could do. Even so, I still enjoyed 8 sound functions for unit that cost me only $53. Money well spent, in my eyes. I've never regretted it.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
NeO6874 wrote:I think arguing "hidden costs" could be compared to buying a new car -- buy this brand new 2008 model for only $14,500 MSRP base, or $16,900 well equipped (excluding all that fine print stuff). Now, for DCC I would argue that the "base" cost is the command station itself and either a decoder or a DCC-equipped locomotive (excluding wiring and other stuff common to DC control). It's not much, but it's the least amount of stuff you need/want (much like the base model of a particular car). Now, you want auto-reversing or transponding or whatever else - you have to pay for it (much like getting the "well equpped" option for that car). We don't say that those options are hidden costs for a car so why are the options to make a "well equppied" DCC system "hidden"?
I think arguing "hidden costs" could be compared to buying a new car -- buy this brand new 2008 model for only $14,500 MSRP base, or $16,900 well equipped (excluding all that fine print stuff). Now, for DCC I would argue that the "base" cost is the command station itself and either a decoder or a DCC-equipped locomotive (excluding wiring and other stuff common to DC control). It's not much, but it's the least amount of stuff you need/want (much like the base model of a particular car). Now, you want auto-reversing or transponding or whatever else - you have to pay for it (much like getting the "well equpped" option for that car). We don't say that those options are hidden costs for a car so why are the options to make a "well equppied" DCC system "hidden"?
NeO6874 wrote: ...However I disagree that the Mantua locos I have are junk. Sure they're a little spartan in the detail department, but they're good runners and pullers. The Tyco or two that I have - now they are junk, but getting junk to work well enough on DC is a worthwile investment of time & money for me. My "spare time" is a lot cheaper than some of you other guys, so spending the $50 on an older 'junker' and then spending 5 or 6 hours tearing it apart and making it work well is still cheaper than spending $150+ on a "good" locomotive (sans decoder)...
...However I disagree that the Mantua locos I have are junk. Sure they're a little spartan in the detail department, but they're good runners and pullers. The Tyco or two that I have - now they are junk, but getting junk to work well enough on DC is a worthwile investment of time & money for me. My "spare time" is a lot cheaper than some of you other guys, so spending the $50 on an older 'junker' and then spending 5 or 6 hours tearing it apart and making it work well is still cheaper than spending $150+ on a "good" locomotive (sans decoder)...
OK, I thought I would sit back and wait to hear as many viewpoints as possible before responding. "Paul3" seems to be the most pointed..........
Much of the harsh criticism is well taken.
I obviously don't know enough about R/C either. My comment concerned how these little R/C cars could run around. I wasn't contemplating using batteries to power the locomotives -- the basic track can still do that -- but envisioned the R/C receiver simply to control the locomotive's movements.
Alas, Paul3, you give me more credit than I deserve. I have a bi-level 34 x 30 HO basement layout. Well, technically, I suppose, I have two layouts with a crossover, as each level is powered by a separate MRC 260. When I built it, I was too stupid/lazy to put in feeds every 3-4 feet. The three feeds per level I do have is adequate for conventional DC, but I've hard horror stories about how sensitive DCC can be, and I'm not sure my present track is up to it. (BTW, Jeffrey-Wimberly, I have "bit the bullet" as you suggested some time ago and have started using the GLEAM method of track cleaning as I conduct my annual fall cleaning in anticipation of the upcoming Railroading Season, and you will be happy to know it is doing a marvelous job.)
I can reasonably run up to five trains at one time. Actually, no. I can run TWO trains at one time, with "phantom" cars separating the sections. But as I said, I've only got two hands.
My comment about MR's monthly sermon was a bit sarcastic. Kalmbach, of course, depends significantly upon the hobby manufacturers and their advertising dollars, and I do not expect MR to criticize them very much. It just seems to me MR has forgotten a lot of us who are happy to watch the trains go around.
So, I concede that DCC may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I'm just too old and set in my ways to tackle the new technology. Hey, at least I no longer run 3-rail Lionel standard gauge!!!!!!!
dstarr wrote: So, I'm planning a new layout. An around the room HO. I have a fleet of maybe 20 locomotives that would want decoders. A two block system allowing two trains the operate at the same time would be sufficient, and allow the use of ordinary DPDT toggle switches for block control, no hard-to-find and expensive rotary switches.
So, I'm planning a new layout. An around the room HO. I have a fleet of maybe 20 locomotives that would want decoders. A two block system allowing two trains the operate at the same time would be sufficient, and allow the use of ordinary DPDT toggle switches for block control, no hard-to-find and expensive rotary switches.
Paul, thats a pretty good argument you've made there. Let's make it even better, by limiting our motive power to 10 (or fewer) locos. I would say this is a "fair" number to use on your layout example, as you will have 2-3 locos on point for your mainline freights (or passengers, whatever), 1-2 working in the yard(s),a few sitting around for their train to be made up (say 2-4), and the rest in staging somewhere, or in the engine yard getting serviced.
DC is still $569
Instead of the DH123D decoders, lets use the NCE D13SRJ 10-pack from Empire Northern Models for the DCC route. At 11.90 apiece, we'd be spending $120 on decoders as opposed to $155. So the DCC route is now $575 -- assuming that we only install decoders in 10 locomotives -- 20 locos (as in your example) would bring the total for DCC up to $695.
For less than $10 over DC we have a wireless DCC system that can easily be expanded for more locos, signalling, maybe CTC, and our fellow modellers can still bring their own throttles and locos and run without too much trouble.
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
dstarr,What wireless DC system is $182 at Walthers? The one I found is the wireless radio Crest (Aristo-Craft) Train Engineer for $191. For a one throttle/two train set up, it would cost another $127 for an additional receiver. Add in the cost of however how many DPDT on-off-on toggles (one for each block - say 25 blocks for two train operation around a room plus yard tracks, engine facilities, etc.) at approx. $5 ea. (from Mouser), plus the cost of the extra wire for a two cab system (say another 100' of 14AWG), plus the DC power supply at $75 and you're talking about $525, more or less (less if you buy mini-toggles, more if you buy bat-handled toggles).
For DCC radio wireless, say you start with a Digitrax Zephyr ($160 @ Tony's), UR91 radio receiver ($115) and DT400R throttle ($180). That's $455. 20 DH123D decoders @ $15.50 ea. = $310. Total: $765.
Both above examples can control two trains at the same time wirelessly, but the Zephyr also allows you to control two more trains tethered to DC power packs, plus it's own throttle. You'd have to add another DC power pack to the DC set up at $44 (at Walthers: Tech 4 200) to equal the Zephyr's own throttle bringing the cost of the DC set up to $569.
To sum up:A wireless one throttle/two cab DC layout with 25 blocks using $5 DPDT's plus one stationary DC throttle would cost approx. $569. Significant time would be spent on one's back under the layout wiring toggles and running wire.
A wireless one throttle/two cab DCC layout with 20 locos using $15.50 decoders plus one stationary DCC throttle would cost approx. $765. Significant time would be spent at the work bench wiring decoders into locos.
The question to ask one's self about the above situation: Is the $200 difference worth it to you? In my situation, I say yes. The added flexibility of DCC more than makes up for the addition cost for me. For example, I can have a couple friends over and they can all bring their own throttles and run trains with me. With the above two-cab DC system, that's not very likely to happen as the system can support two trains and no more.
To answer the rest of your questions:The brand of the decoder matters little...some have more options or better performance, but they are made to be compatible with all systems. I have personally installed a few 1 amp decoders in some DC-70 equipped open-frame motors in some brass with no trouble at all. You don't need the diode matrix for DCC as the decoder does this for you (constant brightness, directional)...you can also make them dim, or stay on all the time, or strobe, or flash, etc. You don't need to re-wire them for 12v bulbs, but if you use 1.5v bulbs you have to add a resistor to each one or use a decoder that already has this installed. All decoders that I've ever seen in the past 8 years have had the two function outputs for headlights (except the old Digitrax sound FX decoders...you need to buy an add-on for lights). Yes, sound decoders are around $75 to $150 or so depending on what and where you buy.
Solution for the DC vs DCC argument? Have both!! That's what I do, and many others do. Not really a problem and not at all unusual or unique or wierd. In fact I have DCC, DC over DCC and pure DC. I could go on and on. Oh, and the Bachmann DCC is only $75. You will need at least one locomotive with a decoder.
I can also fully understand someone with a fleet of DC locomotives wanting to stay DC. It's worked for years and will continue to work just fine. No problem.
Lots of options out there.
Just one additional statement. I can't think of any real argument for building a new layout that is intended to operate more than one train using DC. The cost factor is nowhere near as much as most people think (I think I showed that above), and the increase in operational possibilities is huge.
dstarr wrote: So, I'm planning a new layout. An around the room HO. I have a fleet of maybe 20 locomotives that would want decoders. A two block system allowing two trains the operate at the same time would be sufficient, and allow the use of ordinary DPDT toggle switches for block control, no hard-to-find and expensive rotary switches. What I truly desire is walkaround throttles, DC or DCC isn't that important, Wireless would be nice but plug in will do. With a walkaround throttle I can locate all the turnout controls and block selector switches on the fascia, close to the turnout or block to be controlled. Without walkaround throttles I have to run all the turnout and block select wiring back to the fixed throttle location, a lot of wire. Plus it's more fun to run the trains walking along with them. I can buy a Wireless DC walkaorund throttle for $182 at Walthers, or build the Rich Weygand designs, or my own design for no more than $180 or so. Another $75 for the DC supply. Or, I can go DCC. From what I read here a basic power system might be $200, walkaround throttle $200 (each) and decoders $25 each. 20 locomotives at $25 each is $500 for decoders. Let's assume the wiring costs are about the same either way. So, going DCC is $900, whereas a DC walk around throttle is around $250. Plus I don;t have to install 20 decoders. Most of the locomotives are oldies, not DCC ready, figure somewhere between an hour and an evening for decoder installation, per locomotive, i.e. somewhere between 20 hours and 20 evenings to do 'em all. Do these figures sound about right? Does the brand of decoder matter much? All DCC decoders inter operate? A one amp decoder ought to be plenty for even elderly open frame motors? Does the traditional constant brightness headlamp circuit (two diode drops and a 1.4 volt bulb) work on DCC? Or would it need to be rewired to use 12 volt bulbs? Do even low end decoders have a output to drive headlamps? Or is that optional at extra cost? And decoders with sound are around $75?
What I truly desire is walkaround throttles, DC or DCC isn't that important, Wireless would be nice but plug in will do. With a walkaround throttle I can locate all the turnout controls and block selector switches on the fascia, close to the turnout or block to be controlled. Without walkaround throttles I have to run all the turnout and block select wiring back to the fixed throttle location, a lot of wire. Plus it's more fun to run the trains walking along with them.
I can buy a Wireless DC walkaorund throttle for $182 at Walthers, or build the Rich Weygand designs, or my own design for no more than $180 or so. Another $75 for the DC supply.
Or, I can go DCC. From what I read here a basic power system might be $200, walkaround throttle $200 (each) and decoders $25 each. 20 locomotives at $25 each is $500 for decoders. Let's assume the wiring costs are about the same either way.
So, going DCC is $900, whereas a DC walk around throttle is around $250. Plus I don;t have to install 20 decoders. Most of the locomotives are oldies, not DCC ready, figure somewhere between an hour and an evening for decoder installation, per locomotive, i.e. somewhere between 20 hours and 20 evenings to do 'em all.
Do these figures sound about right? Does the brand of decoder matter much? All DCC decoders inter operate? A one amp decoder ought to be plenty for even elderly open frame motors? Does the traditional constant brightness headlamp circuit (two diode drops and a 1.4 volt bulb) work on DCC? Or would it need to be rewired to use 12 volt bulbs? Do even low end decoders have a output to drive headlamps? Or is that optional at extra cost? And decoders with sound are around $75?
Your DCC numbers are high. NCE PowerCab from Tony's is $150 (is a throttle, you can be running for that), additional throttle for $72. (these are tethered versions). There are decoders that will prbably do the trick for closer to $15 (actually NCE D13SR from Tony's at $137 for 10). So, for single throttle DCC, all 20 converted total is around $425, $500 for two cabs. The wiring will be cheaper, at $5 a switch the DPDTs add up. The time to do the conversions os still a problem, but then again, they don't all have to be done at once.
As far as decoders all brands should work. You don't need a constand brightness circuit since the headlight is either on or off, all decoders that I am aware of have at least two light functions, forward and reverse. I have to think more than I have time for about whether you could leave the constant brightness circuit in. I'm thinking you might be able to, but.....
I see sound decoders starting at $55, don't have enough experience to say whether they are any good. In N scale I may never use them.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Guys, take a breather... it's starting to get a litle heated in here again.
Seeing as shawnee bought the stuff from Tony's it would be safe to assume that it was less than MSRP. Regardless of that fact, the true cost to him was $463. No, he did buy some "extras" that are not necessarily needed by everyone (specifically the reversers and possibly that programming track switch thing, but I'm not 100% sure about that one).
From his experience, I would say that there are/were no "hidden costs" associated with going DCC. It's like any other project that people will undertake.