Yikes, the depth of knowledge you guys have on this stuff is purely amazing... eek... back to my medical books where I feel I at least know SOMETHING!!!
Brian
CNJ831 wrote:No reason to feel foolish, it just happens that I have a deep interest in the hobby's history and have done a lot of associated research.
R. T. POTEET wrote: Your reference to the Knapp 4-8-2 going. . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45.raises an interesting question: how, I ask, was Knapp able to make a cast bronze[???] locomotive; I have been under the impression that bronze was a copper alloy and the War Production Board had severe restrictions of copper usage in all but essential manufacturing during the war years. As a history major revelations such as your sure make me feel stupid.
Your reference to the Knapp 4-8-2 going
. . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45.
No reason to feel foolish, it just happens that I have a deep interest in the hobby's history and have done a lot of associated research.
The Knapp 4-8-2 Heavy was introduced in 1938 and was, to my knowledge, never a big seller. In all probability the necessary bronze casting for the kits was all done prior to U.S.involvement in the war. Quite possibly there was only single run. It was not unusual to find certain loco kits containing "essential" war materials available well into the conflict, since they had been manufactured and stocked prior to January 1942. The hobby was quite small back then (less than 10k individuals) and there were no great runs of new products like you see today. A single relatively small run of an expensive item could remain available on the market for years. Typically, when the stock finally did run out, the item was regarded as OOP.
Incidentally, the Knapp 4-8-2's dies went to Bowser in 1949, who reworked them and the loco was once again done as bronze castings up until about 1952. Thereafter, the castings were of zamac.
CNJ831
CNJ831 wrote: R. T. POTEET posts:In 1949 Mantua's advertising took up the whole back page of Model Railroader; I don't have any 1950, '51, or '52 issues in my collection but by 1953 their advertisements were confined to an interior page and only one column wide. Nowhere in any of their advertising did I find reference to an all-brass model of anything; when I joined the hobby in 1962 a Varney Northern was being offered and I seem to remember that this was all-brass; I suspect that the seller has misidentified this item and, instead of a Tyco, a Varney is what is being offered for bid.I suggest that you read my article documenting the history of Mantua's Master Model Builder's locomotive series (their brass line of engines) in the July 1990 issue of RMC if you think that Mantua brass engines went out of production in 1953 or earlier. In fact, an issue of MR from early 1960 includes the final Mantua ad for a very limited run of the Goat and Belle of the Eighties.Further, I would question Varney's Northern being all-brass as late as 1962. My references indicate that it was of bronze to begin with and it's listed as being produced only between 1949 and 1951. You saw very old stock perhaps?If anything, the model in question here looks to me most like an old Knapp 4-8-2 Heavy boiler, which was also of cast bronze but which supposely went out of production around '45.CNJ831
R. T. POTEET posts:
In 1949 Mantua's advertising took up the whole back page of Model Railroader; I don't have any 1950, '51, or '52 issues in my collection but by 1953 their advertisements were confined to an interior page and only one column wide. Nowhere in any of their advertising did I find reference to an all-brass model of anything; when I joined the hobby in 1962 a Varney Northern was being offered and I seem to remember that this was all-brass; I suspect that the seller has misidentified this item and, instead of a Tyco, a Varney is what is being offered for bid.
I suggest that you read my article documenting the history of Mantua's Master Model Builder's locomotive series (their brass line of engines) in the July 1990 issue of RMC if you think that Mantua brass engines went out of production in 1953 or earlier. In fact, an issue of MR from early 1960 includes the final Mantua ad for a very limited run of the Goat and Belle of the Eighties.
Further, I would question Varney's Northern being all-brass as late as 1962. My references indicate that it was of bronze to begin with and it's listed as being produced only between 1949 and 1951. You saw very old stock perhaps?
If anything, the model in question here looks to me most like an old Knapp 4-8-2 Heavy boiler, which was also of cast bronze but which supposely went out of production around '45.
. . . . . . . . . . in 1962 a Varney Northern was being offered and I seem to remember it was all-brass . . . . . . . . . .
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
I don't recall Tyco making a engine that look like that..
My thoughts is it*could* be a brass engine in a Tyco box.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Its not unusual for boxes and model to be entirely different. A modelr could have replaced the tender trucks and not painted them (yet)
Theres a model up on ebay now I will try to buy, a Pacific Electric interurban car...woops, its really a south shore car...I spotted the error and let the seller know, no probs we know now.
The engine is looking to me to be brass all ways around and may be a tru-blu brass engine in a wrong box.
The reply I got about the shipping charge was this:
Yes we know, we must fix the shipping cost, and we do not have any better pics, sorry for the inconvience, we assure you that the train is in great condition.
My take on all this is that a relative has died and left a bunch of trains. Survivors know nothing at all about trains and are attempting to sell them on e-Bay without a clue of what something is.
It might be marked "Tyco" on the bottom of the engine or tender, and the tender wheels may be brass, but I doubt very much if the rest of it is anything other than Zamac, and possibly some plastic.
I have a couple of Tyco engines from this same time frame that were cast metal kits. One is an 0-4-0 with slope back tender and the other is an 0-6-0, also with a slope back tender. I think Tyco called them the "Little Joe" and "Big Six."
Tender wheels are the only brass used in both of these locomotives.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
Here is what I just received fron the seller.
Quote
Response from tamarav444 ------------------------------------------------------- Yes, it seems the instruction sheet is made by tyco, but the engine is definitely brass. Sorry for the inconvience.
End of quote
I did not think of asking about the side rods.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
marknewton wrote:Funny how a model described as "mint" appears to have neither rods nor trailing truck. I reckon she's trying it on.
I suppose this is where the phrase "some assembly is required" comes in.
Whether the parts are actually included or not is another matter.
river_eagle wrote:I'm just wondering, how many, if any, of you bothered to ask the seller for more information?,
I just checked out her other offerings. Actually, some of the older Aurora models are becoming rather rare - especially in unbuilt condition. An original unbuilt Seaview is a fairly good find if you are into that kind of thing (but it definitely is NOT 1:32 scale! LOL) Also, I think the Phantom might be rather rare too as it is listed as being an F-110 (rather than F-4)on the instructions which might date it as being prior to the standardization of aircraft designators in the early 60s (I think). Same goes for the F94C Starfire kit.
George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
loathar wrote:Someone on the Tyco forum said they remember these being kitbash projects. He said they were typically a Mantua Mikado frame and drivers with a Cary boiler kit and Bowser trucks and brass detail parts. (mystery solved??)
loathar wrote:http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Brass-HO-Scale-Train-by-Tyco_W0QQitemZ190151669167QQihZ009QQcategoryZ78178QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemIs this true? I'm not aware of Tyco making any brass locos. Or is this just another case of a seller that's going to plead ignorance after the buyer complains?
ndbprr wrote:When I was very young right after WW2 I can remember drooling on a store window every chance I got to look at the Mantua brass kit engines and believe me they were kits! I don't think the average guy could have assembled one of those things they were so crude but it was the state of the art. At the most they were six wheeled engines and the ones I remember were all little four wheel engines like a saddle tank and a mother hubbard. As I recall the first 8 wheel drive engine introduced was the American Flyer one followed by Varney and Tyco but that was the latter half of the 50's.
In fact, Mantua offered a brass Reading I-10sa 2-8-0 consolidation prior to WWII (Varney, too), along with a brass Atlantic, a Pacific, the 0-4-0 "Goat" camelback and one or two other smaller brass engines. Post-war, all these engines returned to production save for the consolidation. A couple of the smaller engines continued to be made in extremely limited runs up until as late as 1959, although Mantua's regular locomotive line had basically long since gone over to employing zamac.
Further, I can find absolutely no reference to any specifically Missouri Pacfic 4-8-2 ever being marketed during the 1960's-1980's other than in brass. Even these weren't available until the 1980's.
I sent an eMail also stating that some people were discussing this engine. No response yet.
I downloaded and enhanced the photo and it looks like there are driver rods. Trying to sharpen the photo starts to cause some distortion. Not 100% sure though.
I know some people who sell on eBay and many sellers use terms that may not b e correct but will show up in an eBay search. A example I have seen more than once, a steam engine is "engine train car or "engine train tender coal car". Throw in "rare" or some other term.
river_eagle wrote:I'm just wondering, how many, if any, of you bothered to ask the seller for more information?,a more detailed description?,a clearer, close-up picture of the loco and/or the paperwork?, or the reason for the high shipping fee with included insurance?, before passing judgement on the seller as a crook, or as to the quality, condition, and identification, of what is being offered for sale.
I'm just wondering, how many, if any, of you bothered to ask the seller for more information?,
a more detailed description?,
a clearer, close-up picture of the loco and/or the paperwork?,
or the reason for the high shipping fee with included insurance?,
before passing judgement on the seller as a crook, or as to the quality, condition, and identification, of what is being offered for sale.
_________________________________________________________________
somethings gone wrong with shipping calculator!!!
from Dover, DE
to NYC ZIP 10001 $14.25
ST LOUIS ZIP 63101 $40.15
CALIFORNIA ZIP 92328 $69.10
insc included priority mail, the price difference east coast vs west coast, should be only a dollar or so
loathar wrote:River-Eagle- I sent the seller an E-Mail asking for more details before I started this thread this mourning. I asked how they knew it was a brass Tyco since none where made let alone with that wheel configuration. No responce yet.
I sent her a message after reading this advising her to relist it with clear, closeup photos of the entire loco, including the underside so that any manufacturers name will be visible. No response either. I guess she figures we're trying to cheat her out of her rare Tyco.