Rare TYCO Brass???

[R. T. POTEET]

richg1998's 8:55am response is illuminating and casts considerable light on why this post took some of the turns it did since originated by loathar back when Custer was a plebe at The Point. We can conclude the following from his posted response:

1. The seller's misidentification of this unit as a Tyco brass locomotive gives credence to the fact that he or she was not a model railroader - this particular locomotive likely came into the seller's possession through either benevolence or inheritence; and

2. the seller's faulty identification can be attributed to the refutable documents found in the box which the seller erroneously concluded identified the unit as a Tyco; a person with some railroad knowledge could/would also have recognized that the 2-8-2 identification on one of these documents did not match the true identification of the unit i.e. a 4-8-2 wheel arrangement.

Whatever might be the truth of the matter whoever the buyer might be he or she came up with a windfall on this one!!!

[SteamFreak]

SteamFreak, don't take my comment seriously since I am exercising a little bit of levity this afternoon.

Without giving it too much thought at the time I think that Wills mentioned Knapp in one of his Colletor's Consist columns in RMC; this unit is not a Knapp, it is most likely in a Tenshodo box because it is a Tenshodo. The apparent rarity of Knapp units would infer that they are worth a great deal more money than this Tenshodo(?) unit went for. Even at one hundred and five dollars somebody just got themselves a real bargain!!! Even if this model never becomes more than a still feature on the mantelpiece it will still be a conversation-instigator!!!

Ah. Got ya. It's Friday.

But even if that unit were a Knapp that cluck seller would have still sold it as a Tyco and lost out on beaucoup $$.

[R. T. POTEET]

SteamFreak, I had never heard of Knapp either until the name was injected into this topic about three weeks ago; I never did google the name to find out what might be said about it but I was led to believe that they were one of the more significant manufacturers of the 1930s and, since they didn't cease production until 1945, they were, apparently the only manufacturer allowed to continue manufacturing model locomotives out of strategic metals during Big Brawl Two. I have been tugging on the chain of this individual who brought up the name since he first did so.

Since this thread started almost a month ago I didn't remember that they were mentioned, and it wouldn't stick with me anyway since it's not a name I recognized. Interesting bit of history, though. I wonder what it's true value is. Anyone hazard a guess?

SteamFreak, don't take my comment seriously since I am exercising a little bit of levity this afternoon.

Without giving it too much thought at the time I think that Wills mentioned Knapp in one of his Colletor's Consist columns in RMC; this unit is not a Knapp, it is most likely in a Tenshodo box because it is a Tenshodo. The apparent rarity of Knapp units would infer that they are worth a great deal more money than this Tenshodo(?) unit went for. Even at one hundred and five dollars somebody just got themselves a real bargain!!! Even if this model never becomes more than a still feature on the mantelpiece it will still be a conversation-instigator!!!

[SteamFreak]

SteamFreak, I had never heard of Knapp either until the name was injected into this topic about three weeks ago; I never did google the name to find out what might be said about it but I was led to believe that they were one of the more significant manufacturers of the 1930s and, since they didn't cease production until 1945, they were, apparently the only manufacturer allowed to continue manufacturing model locomotives out of strategic metals during Big Brawl Two. I have been tugging on the chain of this individual who brought up the name since he first did so.

Since this thread started almost a month ago I didn't remember that they were mentioned, and it wouldn't stick with me anyway since it's not a name I recognized. Interesting bit of history, though. I wonder what it's true value is. Anyone hazard a guess?

[R. T. POTEET]

I never heard of Knapp, so I Googled them and came up with this info. Scroll down to 'Knapp Electric.' It was made in 1938.

SteamFreak, I had never heard of Knapp either until the name was injected into this topic about three weeks ago; I never did google the name to find out what might be said about it but I was led to believe that they were one of the more significant manufacturers of the 1930s and, since they didn't cease production until 1945, they were, apparently the only manufacturer allowed to continue manufacturing model locomotives out of strategic metals during Big Brawl Two. I have been tugging on the chain of this individual who brought up the name since he first did so.

[steamnut]

Another example of a seller ignorant of what they are offering. From the mediocre photo this has every appearance of being a genuine piece of brass and it is just possible that the winner got a good bargain. But it certainly ain't Tyco and it certainly ain't mint or anywhere near, and the seller probably lacks the knowledge to answer questions accurately. While I note that the seller has a virtually unconditional return offer, you'd still be out round trip shipping.

[SteamFreak]

I never heard of Knapp, so I Googled them and came up with this info. Scroll down to 'Knapp Electric.' It was made in 1938.

http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/article.php?article=2594

[R. T. POTEET]

By gosh! it is a Knapp unit!! They frequently hide in Tenshodo boxes! Embarrassment, I suppose!!!

[loathar]

Thanks for the update! Sounds like someone might have got a deal for $105. If I had the $$, I would have bid on it just to see what it was.

[richg1998]

Here is what I just received from the buyer. Did not say anything about Tyco.

Hello

She arrived today .

As promised, here is what it is : a
partially built very early brass kit of a 4-8-2, probably Tenshodo as there
is a sticker on the plain cardboard box that says Early Tenshodo 1954 or
1959 signed by Emil Pindzola? no name on the blue print which says Missouri
Pacific Line 4-8-2 and is very basic, the extensive instruction sheets
refer to a 2-8-2 Mikado and are Mantua instruction sheet N° 142 , 19/49 -
kit N° : 208, there is also a MDC price list dated July 1st 1954 .

Most
parts are brass, the engine trailing axle is bronze, there are two six
wheel brass Commonwealth bogies for the tender that are brighter than the
rest, engine is the usual early japanese open frame type, transmission via
a dark red rubber tube . 

 Rich

[rrebell]

I'm tempted to shoot the buyer a message after 10 days or so to see if he has any idea what the heck it really is. Loathar started this mystery, and I want to know the answer.

Maybe I should hit my old Mantua with some gold spray paint, then take photos from a distance.

Do so and you're likely to get plenty of bids! After the buyer receives it though, it could be another story.

The misrepresentation that goes on on eBay, intentional or otherwise, is simply terrible. Likewise, there are so many totally naive buyers pursuing eBay that it boggles the mind.

Years back I always considered model railroaders a pretty intelligent, well informed bunch. However, with the coming of the Internet and seeing what folks post, I've since dropped that opinion. A perfect example is in what they will buy blind. A while back, I saw a very common 1950's Mantua 0-4-0 four car freight set, honestly worth perhaps $20, go for nearly $300 on eBay simply because the seller claimed, without any substantiation whatever, that it had been on display at the 1939 NY World's Fair. In fact, that particular Mantua loco and set didn't even appear until the 1950's! There were at least a dozen high dollar bids for the item and I'm almost sure the buyer is still going around telling folks he owns a unique, priceless, piece of model railroading's history. Yup, there's one born every minute!

CNJ831

Hey only partialy wrong, one of the founders of mantua designed one of the buildings at that worlds fair, think that building was train related too.

[CNJ831]

I'm tempted to shoot the buyer a message after 10 days or so to see if he has any idea what the heck it really is. Loathar started this mystery, and I want to know the answer.

Maybe I should hit my old Mantua with some gold spray paint, then take photos from a distance.

Do so and you're likely to get plenty of bids! After the buyer receives it though, it could be another story.

The misrepresentation that goes on on eBay, intentional or otherwise, is simply terrible. Likewise, there are so many totally naive buyers pursuing eBay that it boggles the mind.

Years back I always considered model railroaders a pretty intelligent, well informed bunch. However, with the coming of the Internet and seeing what folks post, I've since dropped that opinion. A perfect example is in what they will buy blind. A while back, I saw a very common 1950's Mantua 0-4-0 four car freight set, honestly worth perhaps $20, go for nearly $300 on eBay simply because the seller claimed, without any substantiation whatever, that it had been on display at the 1939 NY World's Fair. In fact, that particular Mantua loco and set didn't even appear until the 1950's! There were at least a dozen high dollar bids for the item and I'm almost sure the buyer is still going around telling folks he owns a unique, priceless, piece of model railroading's history. Yup, there's one born every minute!

CNJ831

[richg1998]

I sent a question a couple days ago and he said he would let me know. I am curious also.

Yes I know, I should be working on my layout, something constructive. 

 

Rich 

[SteamFreak]

I'm tempted to shoot the buyer a message after 10 days or so to see if he has any idea what the heck it really is. Loathar started this mystery, and I want to know the answer.

Maybe I should hit my old Mantua with some gold spray paint, then take photos from a distance.

[vsmith]

Hey, it sold for $105.  Maybe somebody knows something we don't?

 Tilden

Maybe something about one being born every minute???

[wjstix]

Just a side note, there's a big difference between a "brass locomotive" (an engine hand made in Asia, entirely or almost entirely in brass, and extremely well detailed) and a kit engine that has a brass boiler and other parts. Many kits years ago had brass as a primarly element but weren't "brass locomotives" in the true sense of the term. I think this was an early kit with brass parts from maybe the thirties-forties that was in a Tyco box?? Brass imports didn't start until the late fifties IIRC.

[Tilden]

Hey, it sold for $105.  Maybe somebody knows something we don't?

 Tilden

[marknewton]

I imagine that many eBay dealers wouldn't regard your efforts as help. They'd think you were trying to rip them off, or at least get something for nothing.

My impression is that a lot of them regard ripping people off as their exclusive privilege.!

[PB&J RR]

No matter how bizarre this is, nor how arcane it gets... It will not beat the lady I just bought a lionel engine from... I advised her that the engine and tender go together- she insisted that they were separate cars from a set, I sent her evidence from Lionel stating that this engine and that tender were never separate... She declined the idea. I offered to buy them now if she would combine shipping... She also declined- this was a mistake the combined buy it now prices and shipping would have gotten her just over 100 bucks... I bid and waited... and I won both... I sent her her 62.50 she refunded the 9.25 and combined the shipping and I wound up with a matched set 4-8-4 northern streamline steamer and tender models 1688 and 1689W for 45 and shipping... WHY DON'T THEY LISTEN WHEN WE TRY TO HELP THEM???

 

[Anonymous]

As much as you guys  have talked about it, one of you are gonna have to buy it, just so you can settle the argument as to just what it is!! :-)

[csmith9474]

I don't see the $40 shipping charge.  When I pulled up the listing the shipping cost is $69+.

Are you guys sure this isn't 1 to 1 scale

I e-mailed the seller about the shipping, and they said it was a mistake. According to the listing it was supposed to have been about $65 for shipping to my address, but they said it should actually be $14.

[dinwitty]

from the info here I will skip buying it, good luck to the bidders, if they have probs they should look to bowser as their mountain looks very close to this. Bowser has taken up other product makers like Varney and Arbour, they havent done anythiong about the arbour stuff yet.

 

[sfrailfan]

someone just buy it and then you'll be able to see what it is for yourself!

(yes I'm laughing)

[Tilden]

I don't see the $40 shipping charge.  When I pulled up the listing the shipping cost is $69+.

Are you guys sure this isn't 1 to 1 scale

[R. T. POTEET]

...you don't have the feebleist flippin' idea whether this Knapp company's Mountain went

. . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45

or if it was January, 1942 . . . . . . . . . . or August of '61 . . . . . . . . . . or December of '06 . . . . . . . . . . or if it was ever in production in the first place. If you ever figure out what in the aitch you are talking about be sure to let me know.  

Well...clearly you have not the slightest clue on the subject, nor obviously any background whatever in the hobby's history, a sad shortcoming all too common of this site's posts/posters. Most model railroad item production/availability dates are well documented and are not estimates nor W.A. guesses. And I certainly know the Knapp bronze 4-8-2 was produced, exactly what it looked like and its resemblance to the "Tycho" model in question...I have a Knapp example!  

CNJ831

Whatever!!!!!

[rrebell]

IT LOOKS TO BE ALL BRASS to me but the solder job looks lacking, as for tyco, I've seen some strange items from their early years. Have a number of wood turntables, all by the same manufacturer and have learned you have to look in the box to get what you want as manufacturing changed as time went on. Once was looking for an item from a certain manufacturer and found out they had bought out a bunch of stuff and just put their label on it, so I had to expand my serch to another company. Con cor did this all the time.

[CNJ831]

...you don't have the feebleist flippin' idea whether this Knapp company's Mountain went

. . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45

or if it was January, 1942 . . . . . . . . . . or August of '61 . . . . . . . . . . or December of '06 . . . . . . . . . . or if it was ever in production in the first place. If you ever figure out what in the aitch you are talking about be sure to let me know.  

Well...clearly you have not the slightest clue on the subject, nor obviously any background whatever in the hobby's history, a sad shortcoming all too common of this site's posts/posters. Most model railroad item production/availability dates are well documented and are not estimates nor W.A. guesses. And I certainly know the Knapp bronze 4-8-2 was produced, exactly what it looked like and its resemblance to the "Tycho" model in question...I have a Knapp example!  

CNJ831

[UP2CSX]

My thought is who cares. Maybe it's some poor person who really doesn't know what it is. Or maybe some who knows but wants to bluff a little. If some idiot wants it for a big price then more power to the seller. I find it interesting that we can discuss it here. But when it comes to emailing them then posting it here for a small laugh then it's wrong. Let them sell what they want. If I see something wrong in a listing I learned to just let it be. Just my opinion. Agree or disagree.

I disagree. I e-mailed the seller and got the same "Thank You" response that she gave to others. Forgeting for the moment that she's advertsing somrthing which is inaccurately described at best, e-bay has a policy about excessive shipping charges. She is charging the same $40 shipping on all the stuff she has up for auction including plastic model airplanes which probably weight less than a pound. I reported her to e-bay for the excessive shipping charge. I won't even get into whether it's really a brass engine. If she had 30 or 40 sales, I might be inclined to give her a break but she's sold 177 things on e-bay. She's one of those sellers that really doesn't care what kind of profit she makes of an item, she rakes it in on shipping. Even if the engine was packed in a special box and sent insured, she's still making at least a $20 profit on shipping. E-bay doesn't approve and neither do I.

[R. T. POTEET]

No reason to feel foolish, it just happens that I have a deep interest in the hobby's history and have done a lot of associated research.

The Knapp 4-8-2 Heavy was introduced in 1938 and was, to my knowledge, never a big seller. In all probability the necessary bronze casting for the kits was all done prior to U.S.involvement in the war. Quite possibly there was only single run. It was not unusual to find certain loco kits containing "essential" war materials available well into the conflict, since they had been manufactured and stocked prior to January 1942. The hobby was quite small back then (less than 10k individuals) and there were no great runs of new products like you see today. A single relatively small run of an expensive item could remain available on the market for years. Typically, when the stock finally did run out, the item was regarded as OOP.
CNJ831

Whatever!!!

I'm not sure just what the quibble is here; this started out as a post trying to ascertain the identity of an item listed on ebay but where it has gone goes far towards explaining why I don't buy things sight unseen; I have never bought anything off of ebay and I will never buy anything off of ebay.

The seller doesn't have the feebleist flippin' idea what he/she is selling; you don't have the feebleist flippin' idea whether this Knapp company's Mountain went

. . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45

or if it was January, 1942 . . . . . . . . . . or August of '61 . . . . . . . . . . or December of '06 . . . . . . . . . . or if it was ever in production in the first place. If you ever figure out what in the aitch you are talking about be sure to let me know.