Bear "It's all about having fun."
I'm definitely off the EZ Command option. IT comes down to NCE and Zephyr. I'm going to do more research build upon the great advice here. I'm printing out this thread for continued reference. It looks like both NCE and Zephyr have their own advantages. I probably won't go wrong with either. NCE sounds like it's a bit more intuitive, and Zephyr has more power and good exapandibility. Though the additional power unit for NCE seems not too expensive either. Guess I'll spend a while on TonyTRains today. Their stuff is interesting too, and doesn't seem like just manufacturer propaganda.
Let me humbly ask a question about train decoders...after all, that's a key element to buy too. I've got ten of them to get, at some point. Where does one find information on decoders, say, for a Kato SD45? ie, for specific makes and types. Are all decoders created equal?
Decoders are a can of worms.
One rule:
If the analog engine DOES NOT RUN WELL... a decoder will probably NOT fix it.
Paul3 wrote: jktrains wrote:I've never been able to have anyone explain to me in tangible terms what the advantage or flexibility of the Loconet is over a regular DCC control bus.As simply as possible, the peer-to-peer Loconet has plug-n-play ability for all current & future Digitrax products without modification. Other DCC systems that use polled buss (or master-slave) systems have to get their command station/throttle software upgraded periodically to account for new products that weren't forseen when the last software upgrade was made (Lenz, for example, is up to Version 3 software).Digitrax, OTOH, has had only a single software upgrade to the Chief system since it came out in the 1990's, and that was right after it came out. Since then, Digitrax has added 3 new throttle designs, 4 new block detectors, radio throttles, infrared throttles, power managers, signalling and so on. And all without upgrading it's software. Loconet allows that to happen.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
jktrains wrote:
I've never been able to have anyone explain to me in tangible terms what the advantage or flexibility of the Loconet is over a regular DCC control bus.
As simply as possible, the peer-to-peer Loconet has plug-n-play ability for all current & future Digitrax products without modification.
Other DCC systems that use polled buss (or master-slave) systems have to get their command station/throttle software upgraded periodically to account for new products that weren't forseen when the last software upgrade was made (Lenz, for example, is up to Version 3 software).
Digitrax, OTOH, has had only a single software upgrade to the Chief system since it came out in the 1990's, and that was right after it came out. Since then, Digitrax has added 3 new throttle designs, 4 new block detectors, radio throttles, infrared throttles, power managers, signalling and so on. And all without upgrading it's software. Loconet allows that to happen.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Oh, now I understand! That's why none of the Digitrax systems can't do Advanced consisting or access the higher functions. Their software can't be upgraded. Yet other entry level systems like PA or the PowerCab can because those systems can have their software upgraded to be able to use newly developed products. Digitrax makes it so their software can't be upgraded and also makes it so that you have to use their 'loconet' compliant products. Now I understand, its all business planning - planned obselesence so that user needs to purchase completely new system for a few hundred $$ instead of an upgraded chip for $20. Now it makes sense.
shawnee wrote: I'm definitely off the EZ Command option. IT comes down to NCE and Zephyr. I'm going to do more research build upon the great advice here. I'm printing out this thread for continued reference. It looks like both NCE and Zephyr have their own advantages. I probably won't go wrong with either. NCE sounds like it's a bit more intuitive, and Zephyr has more power and good exapandibility. Though the additional power unit for NCE seems not too expensive either. Guess I'll spend a while on TonyTRains today. Their stuff is interesting too, and doesn't seem like just manufacturer propaganda.Let me humbly ask a question about train decoders...after all, that's a key element to buy too. I've got ten of them to get, at some point. Where does one find information on decoders, say, for a Kato SD45? ie, for specific makes and types. Are all decoders created equal?
Shawnee,
I've used all 3 major systems - Digitrax, NCE and PA. IMO, the info on Tony's website is good information presented in a unbiased, easy to follow manner. Keep doing your research. There's no doubt that any of the three will be able to run your layout, it really comes down to an ease of use factor. Keep in mind that your primary interface with a DCC system is the throttle you will hold in your hand (if you can ). Ultimately, if you're not happy with how you use the throttle, the information it provides, you won't be happy with the system regardless of how little or much you spent on it.
Regarding decoders, not all decoders are equal. Figure out how many fuctions you need for lights since you're not interested in sound. I recommend a minimum of 4 functions. Remember that F0 and F1 are usually the front and rear headlights. If you want working ditchlights you need 2 more functions. A mars light or multiple headlights mean more than 2 functions. Regarding what decoder fights what engine I think Tony's website may have a chart. The NCE website has one for their decoders. Other differences in decoders involve things like the ability to handle Advanced consisting and BEMF motor control.
jktrains
jktrains wrote: Paul3 wrote: jktrains wrote:I've never been able to have anyone explain to me in tangible terms what the advantage or flexibility of the Loconet is over a regular DCC control bus.As simply as possible, the peer-to-peer Loconet has plug-n-play ability for all current & future Digitrax products without modification. Other DCC systems that use polled buss (or master-slave) systems have to get their command station/throttle software upgraded periodically to account for new products that weren't forseen when the last software upgrade was made (Lenz, for example, is up to Version 3 software).Digitrax, OTOH, has had only a single software upgrade to the Chief system since it came out in the 1990's, and that was right after it came out. Since then, Digitrax has added 3 new throttle designs, 4 new block detectors, radio throttles, infrared throttles, power managers, signalling and so on. And all without upgrading it's software. Loconet allows that to happen.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************Oh, now I understand! That's why none of the Digitrax systems can't do Advanced consisting or access the higher functions. Their software can't be upgraded. Yet other entry level systems like PA or the PowerCab can because those systems can have their software upgraded to be able to use newly developed products. Digitrax makes it so their software can't be upgraded and also makes it so that you have to use their 'loconet' compliant products. Now I understand, its all business planning - planned obselesence so that user needs to purchase completely new system for a few hundred $$ instead of an upgraded chip for $20. Now it makes sense.
Sorry, lets clarify - A Zephyr system can not do Advanced consisting or that's what Digitrax experts have said. Since Shawnee has said he's considering a Zephyr I didn't feel then need to be more specific.
CSX Robert - Is that to say that when Digitrax FINALLY comes out with a duplex radio system it will be able to access up to F28. What about users that don't buy the new radio system, how will they be able to access up to F28? Will they just be able to magically access it because the radio system is on the market? What about people who already have a simplex radio system? How will they upgrade? Will they need to upgrade their throttles also? If the only way they can access the higher functions is to buy a duplex radio system, that's what's called planned obsolesence
I have friends who have a their D systems for 6-7 years. They've never heard of an upgrade. In this day and age of technology items such as computers, cell phones, ipods etc being outdated almost as soon as you buy them that there haven't been tech advances that a software update could take advantage of? Or is it more of a chicken or egg approach. Is every new Loconet product made by Digitrax able to be used on current systems because they're simply backwards compatible or because they haven't change the system architecture in all those years?
I've used their products, including their manuals, and found them to be non-user friendly. Since Shawnee is a newbie and wants to share this hobby with is 8 y.o. son, one of his criteria was a user friendly system, in all areas - installation and operation.
shawnee - No matter which system you end up getting remember that there is no interchangeability. Once you buy Digitrax, for example, then in terms of future upgrades, expansions, additions, etc you are stuck with Digitrax unless you want to go to another system and start all over from scratch, as it were.
I would recommend the Tony's autoreverser above most others. It's solid-state, no relays, so it responds faster than the relay-style ones. It should in theory last longer, too, although I've never seen a post about an autoreverser of any kind failing. This unit also includes a circuit breaker, so if you have a short on your reverse loop the rest of the layout will keep running.
Hooking one up is as simple as running 4 wires - two from the power bus of the DCC system, and two out to the tracks of the reverse loop. After that, it's completely transparent, which is why everyone likes these so much. That's also a good thing for kids - they don't have to keep track of things like where the rail gaps are. They can just run trains and let Tony do the polarity flips for them.
If price is really a problem, you can cheat a bit with multiple reverse loops. If there's no chance that two engines will be hitting different loops at the same time, you can connect multiple loops to the same reverser. NOTE: This is not recommended. However, I would do that before I would use a manual toggle, particularly if the loops are a good distance apart and you're usually only running one train. If you make sure the loops are all wired independently except for a connection at the autoreverser, then you can add more reversers at a later point if you decide that there's a problem with using just one.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
That's really good news about Tony's autoreverser, because for just the reasons you stated...I want my son to be able to run the trains without coordinating distant toggle switches, and one of the reverse loops is on the upper deck. And with the autoreverse, he can run the trains ina virtual continuous run without worrying. The circuit breaker is obviously a big advantage too. I'll probably get two of these, for the reverse sections on deck 1 and 2.
I eliminated one of the reverse sections last night, it wasn't operationally necessary and was redundant of one of the other loops. I have to refrain from the impulse to fill up space with track. A certain restraint, i'm finding, really is an aid in track planning and will help the overall scene.
I suspect that my son will probably grasp the DCC system quicker than I think. I went upstairs last night and he was furiously working the computer game. He's a gamer. I forget how techy kids are these days. Dad's is the one who's been DC since back in the day.
On the decoder thing, is there any advantage with a DCC system of getting the same brand loco decoder as is the DCC system itself?
The earlier post about incompatability between different brands of DCC requires some clarification. The NMRA specifications basically let you use any brand of DCC equipment with any other brand on the "track" side of the system. On the other hand, the "command" side, which includes the controller, any boosters (if present) and the hand-held throttles, is all proprietary and in general can't be used with other systems. That's why it's important to try out throttles. It's how you will interact with the system, and you don't have a choice of manufacturers once you've settled on a system. (Personally, I like the large buttons on my Lenz system. I've got big fingers.)
Reversers are on the "track" side, so they all play together well. So are decoders. All DCC decoders will work with all DCC systems. That's another one that needs additional information, though. Newer decoders, particularly sound units, take advantage of more "function codes" than older ones. If you have an older or lower-end DCC system, it might not support these functions. Most of the high ones are associated with sounds, by the way, and they've put the common ones like horn and bell down low so they are generally accessible to everyone.
There's no particular advantage to staying with one manufacturer for your system and decoders. Decoder features vary widely, and it's more important to match the decoder to the locomotive than anything else. A lot of this is just the physical size and shape of the decoder, and has nothing to do with its electrical properties.
shawnee wrote:I eliminated one of the reverse sections last night, it wasn't operationally necessary and was redundant of one of the other loops. I have to refrain from the impulse to fill up space with track. A certain restraint, i'm finding, really is an aid in track planning and will help the overall scene.
You're a smart man. To me, the less track you "force" into a scene, the more believable the scene is.
You're probably right but I don't think you'll be that far behind.
No. Any NMRA compliant DCC system will work with any decoder. You don't need to be brand reliant. I have Lenz, Digitrax, and NCE in my locomotives.
Actually, the only "advantage" I can see in getting the same brand is familiarity with installing them or resetting them to factory settings. Even so, there are different sizes and shapes of decoders within brands.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Shawnee:
In your original post you say you are using Kato Unitrack so I assume that your turnouts are Unitrack also. I know that Kato offers both "power routing" and "non-power routing" turnouts. Which do you have? This might affect their use in DCC.
It sound like your track may already be installed so you just want to be sure that your turnouts will work okay in DCC as installed.
I'm not well versed on what his needed here but just wanted to be sure that you check this out before having a problem. Others on the forum can probably be of help to you on this. I'm using all Atlas insulfrog turnouts and they work just fine in DCC without any modification.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
"The earlier post about incompatability between different brands of DCC requires some clarification."
MisterBeasley - you are correct w/your clarification. I probably should have made this point clearer.
I'm wiring my remote Atlas turnouts separately to be operated w/a conventional DC power pack so I believe any issue regarding DCC compatibility is moot. I don't know about the Kato turnouts.
jktrains,It's positively amazing that you can write so may wrong statements in this day and age of instant information on the web. You know, it might be a good idea if you did a little research on the subject matter before spouting off.
You wrote: "That's why none of the Digitrax systems can't do Advanced consisting or access the higher functions."
Wrong. They can do both. Advanced Consisting must be enabled by programming the command station's OPSW variable. Accessing the higher (above F12) functions can be done with a computer interface. No DCC throttle other than the MRC PA or PE can handle over F12, BTW. And to date, no HO locomotive or HO decoder uses above F12 other than the MRC sound decoders and MTH's K-4 (which may need their non-NMRA DCS system to operate).
You wrote: "Their software can't be upgraded."
Also untrue. Digitrax software can be upgraded. The DCS100 had an upgrade in the 1990's, and the Zephyr also had an upgrade to fix a bug shortly after it came out. Other than that, there has been no real need to upgrade it. It's a peer-to-peer network.
You wrote: "Digitrax makes it so their software can't be upgraded and also makes it so that you have to use their 'loconet' compliant products."
As pointed out, Digitrax software can be upgraded (and that has been done in the past). And it is possible to use a couple of Lenz boosters with a Digitrax layout (just like you can use Digitrax boosters with Lenz or Marklin command stations). As for having to use their "'loconet' compliant products"...well, duh. CVP & Lenz are the only cross compatible throttles out there. You can't use an MRC throttle on an NCE layout any more than you can use a Digitrax throttle on a Lenz layout. Loconet, while proprietory, is all but free to develop into whatever you want. Just look at all the Loconet 3rd party hardware and software that's out there. How many 3rd party MRC or NCE products exist?
You wrote: "Now I understand, its all business planning - planned obselesence so that user needs to purchase completely new system for a few hundred $$ instead of an upgraded chip for $20."
Gee, you're wrong again. You don't have to buy a completely new system when a new Digitrax product comes out. You simply buy the new product. For example, say you bought the original DCS100 with the DT100 throttle. You only had access to F0-F8. Then, years later, they bring out the DT400 with access to F0-F12. If you want F9-F12, you buy the DT400 and plug it into the old DCS100 command station and now you have access to F9 to F12. Simple.
Jerry - The Kato track has both power routing and non-power routing options. That adpatability, plus the switch machine embedded in the trackbed itself, are nice aspects of the Kato system. The factory default setting is power routing, which I've used in my old DC layout. I assume, then, that I'll need to set them to non-power routing?
I'm going to control those switches with an old Kato powerpack that is part of the Kato system. I have 4 powered turnouts, all to the back or second level, the rest are manual and near the aisle.
Tstage and MrBeasley - it's good find out that the decoders can be from any company, and I'll call TonysTrains and I'm sure they'll help me out with my particular loco fittings. But, without opening a can of worms, are there are brands of decoders that one should avoid, any that are unreliable or of bad reputation?
I just went out and bought the Lionel Strang "DCC" book, so I'll devour that this week. I guess it was written a while ago since it does not include the NCE Powercab system.
I'm actually getting pretty excited about DCC. It should be fun to operate, and it's an interesting challenge. I'm ready to do this. Thanks everyone!
DCC Made Easy by Lionel Strang is a good reference. Lionel has a knack for being able to describe something that is complicated in everyday english. I believe he wrote that about 3 years ago.
As far as decoders to avoid. I'd just stick to the reliables: Digitrax, NCE, Lenz and TCS. The choice you'll have then is what features you want:
Shawnee, Tony's Train Exchange has a nice Decoder Comparison Matrix so that you can see what decoders have what features. I've found it very handy.
MRC decoders have a bad reputation. I don't have any myself, so I can't speak from personal experience.
TCS decoders come with a "goof-proof" guarantee. Even if you toast the decoder by accidentally plugging it directly into the wall socket, they'll replace it. They are also one of the most "bargain priced" decoders on the market. I have one problem with these - they only seem to consist in the forward direction, at least when using my Lenz system. Still, I've got a couple of them and other than that, they run just fine.
Paul3,
OK, so they can do advanced consisting, it just not their default setting for consisting. Would be nice to be given the choice between either method as part of the consist set-up.
So you say that the software can be upgraded. If D choose to do this, how would it be done? Openning the case voids the warranty. Send the unit back to D for installation?
You've proven my point about obsolesence! If you want to access the higher functions, the Zephyr is obsolete, the DT100 is obsolete, DT300 - obsolete too since its only good to F8. You need to go out and spend approx $150 on a DT400 and even then you only get less than 50% of the ones available. A UT2 can only access up to F5. I was able to get access to F28 for $20; no need to buy a $150 throttle. Sure seems that a software upgrade would have been a nice option, and more cost effective for the consumer.
Based on CSX Roberts comments, and yours in other threads, the duplex radio is due around year end. CSX says that this will open up functions through F28. Again, how for non duplex users? By requiring a user to purchase the duplex radio system? Will your current DT400r work with the duplex system? My guess would be no because the DT400r only contains a transmitter and no receiver. The current UR91 is only a receiver, based on the description of the web. You've indicated you've talked to D reps, have they provided any insight about backward compatibility, especially for throttles? Will you need to send your DT400s back to D to have a receiver added?
Paul, in this day of access to info its amazing you can make misstatements too. To say that no HO locomotive or HO decoder uses above F12 is in error. A little research would show that the new Genesis Big Boys uses through F28. I have a P2K U28B with sound that uses through F28.
What it boils down to is a Ford v Chevy thing. Each likes their own for their reasons.
When it is time for me to go radio, there will be a expense for the hardware involved. To me this is no different than replacing a failed RAID hard drive off Newegg.
Just not as much because as long as the Loconet remains part of Digitrax's core I dont have a problem with upgrading.
Yes you have these high function keys. I say so what? The most you ever use is the whistle, Bell and maybe the F9 load key, at least in my railroad. The rest of the cute buttons is more for showing off to the non-railroader who wants to hear the flushing tender.
Now I will say that the Dt400 is a nice throttle and feel it should be incorperated into the Zephyr and the old format scrapped. When this is done and a new Zephyr two is issued at a lower price there will be more adopters espeically if this zephyr already contains a radio.
Copper ethernet is going to die a corrosive, painful death against the advances of Radio, wireless or other forms of communication that disposes of the copper wire.
I worry more about different engine and decoder manufactors doing thier own thing when it comes to programming CV's.
They should really just adopt QSI's CV chart and move forward and find ways to document the process so that the beginner is not buried in something that is intimidating or perhaps not so in-need of still additional learning like some charts are presented in Binary form requiring one to learn the 128,64,32,16,8,4,2,1 for each of the 8 bits for a total of 255.
There should be one CV chart that covers ALL the engines and ALL possible varibles up to what? 255 different options? So that when someone says... I programmed CV2 to blah blah... everyone understands what CV 2 is.
I would like for a DCC system to support the Modeler in this way regardless of it's overall ability. A one amp trainset DCC starter system should be just as functional as a Super Chief across all CV and commonly used function keys.
That is one reason I bought the Chief, I didnt want to be caught with something that did not incorperate something down the road should that something something be needing adjustment.
I am faintly amused at all the talk of higher functions above F12 to F28 and beyond.... what are we trying to accomplish here? Keep payroll on each engine and train crewman? Keep tabs on water or coal remaining? Listen to the Roadmaster chew out a careless employee inside the yard office?
Im afraid that we may get so caught up in the functions that we spend an hour just starting the thing up and getting it all right before recieving clearence to actually drive the model train somewhere on that layout sometime before dinnertime.
Safety Valve wrote: I am faintly amused at all the talk of higher functions above F12 to F28 and beyond.... what are we trying to accomplish here? Keep payroll on each engine and train crewman? Keep tabs on water or coal remaining? Listen to the Roadmaster chew out a careless employee inside the yard office?
That's pretty funny. Well, I may indeed eventually be wrong about sound, and grow into a profound delight in it. However, when the come out with the function, I seriously doubt that I would ever be interested in tracking my crew's payroll. Especially if one of the CVs involves sick time or guys not showing up to work. I got enough of that kind of headache at my real job! I guess the basic function buttons will serve me just fine for a long. long time...DCC newbie that I am and all.
But um...but does one of the CVs control a coffee maker?
shawnee wrote:...but does one of the CVs control a coffee maker?
If not, it should only be a matter of time...
[ But um...but does one of the CVs control a coffee maker? ]
***Shawnee, when this happens, it will shift from my wish list over to then "MUST HAVE" list in an instant.
Rob
While most people may never use all the functions that are available currently, it is nice to have access to them if you want to try them out. You spent the money on them it would be nice to try them at least once. For example, there is a current thread about consisting and adjusting CVs to match loco speeds. The U28B with QSI has a function that when pressed will tell you the scale speed of the loco. A neat trick but one may ask is it useful. Well, consider that you can add a digital speedometer to a stretch of track. The speedo simply measures the time to travel between two precisely located sensors and then displays scale speed. With access to that function I can now verify the speedo read out against what the loco says. Adjust the locos speed control CVs until they match the speedo. Now I can do the rest of the loco fleet and have them all speed matched. Do I have to have the speed function, probably not, but is a nice verification.
Here's another exmaple not function related. One of the new features with the NCE software update allows you to clear all cabs' memory. Every cabs selected address, recalls, functions and speed are cleared out. What use is this. Consider the ability to clear everything at the beginning or the end of an operating session. No one can inadvertently pick up a cab and more a train or leave at speed 1 instead of 0 so that when you turn the layout on again that train in the hidden staging doesn't slowly start to creep out and cause a short.
Also, consider that the ability to access the higher functions is really a proxy as to how the manufacturer adapts to or incorporates new technology, features and standards. Is it done via hardware or software? What's it take for me to use something new? To me that's more the issue, is the company developing new features or have the mentality of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"??
Assuming that you will eventually want a minimum of 2.5 amps for your DCC system, I've listed some pricing options that compare 3 different systems. In each case I've listed an extra throttle so that both of you can operate at the same time. These prices are from a mail order website:
Digitrax: (computer interface built in)
Zephyr (2.5 amp) $160 $160
DT400 throttle $139
UT4 throttle $65
Total $225 $299
NCE: (computer interface announced but not yet available?)
Power Cab (2 amp) $140 $140
Smart Booster (3 amp) $78
XFR4 power supply $30
CAB04P throttle $72 $72
Total $320 $212
MRC: (no computer interface available)
Prodigy Advance2 (2.5 amp) $260
Prodigy Advance Cab $75
Total $335
Don't know if you ever want a computer interface but there is free program that makes progamming locos a snap and also provides additional computer throttles.
I suspect that your son will want sound (and maybe you too) and all three systems would handle it for your situation.
For Digitrax the $299 option might be best as it would allow easier programing with the DT400. I think that Zephyr programming may not be as easy but others can verify whether that is so or not.
For economy, you could start with the Digitrax $160 or NCE $140 options and see how they work for you. Then you could work your way up with more throttles or power as needed. Not sure of the cost for upgrading power and features to the 1.6 amp Prodigy Express so didn't list it.
Don't know if this is of interest to you but I was curious about these comparisons. Of course there would be other incidentals involved but these are the major components. I think that the ideal system for you would be any of the three top dollar options listed.