mlehman wrote:On the issue of the confused A vs. B unit numbers on 5543 and 5544, Athearn was warranting these units. They swapped shells with me to fix this. It's quite possible that you will run across sets of these that haven't been corrected yet. I'd advise dropping a note to Athearn before sending shells back to swap. However, since Athearn is aware of the problem and likely produced plenty of shells to address it, I'd imagine that this warranty adjustment is still available to anyone needing it.
I have been told by those who have gotten the #5544,5543 F3AB set that Athearn takes care of it no problem. Its just an extra hassle to mail order them and have to turn around and ship them back out for correction.
On an interesting side note - Athearns website showed all the 1-stripe F3AB sets sold out when I check a few months ago, and then last week I checked again and it shows the #5544,5543 F3AB sets now due in August. I wonder if this apparent additional run will have the road numbers corrected?
The sound equipped sets say: "Due Early August, 2007" but the non sound versions have nothing listed at all. But nothing about being discontinued which is what it says when Horizon has sold out at the distributor level.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
By the way, here is an example of a Genesis 1960's single stripe D&RGW paint F unit. This happens to be an F9m (a wreck rebuild version of an F3A). It is an interesting model based fairly accurately on a real diesel which was wrecked, sent back to EMD and clothed in an F9A carbody but the roof details (which apparently survived the wreck) were recycled. So the F unit looks like and F9A from the sides but from the roof it looks like an F3A.
The main point to this post is this is how most of the passenger F units looked which pulled the California Zephyr from 1961 and onward (with an occasional 4-stripe F unit rarely substituted in the MU consist). In late 1965 the F3's were retired and after that it was a mix of F7's and F9's which were used to pull the CZ thru the end of operations. F9A 5774 was wrecked in 1967 so technically it would be modelers license to use that loco modeling a later time period.
The currently available single stripe Genesis painted F units are as follows:
F9ABB #5771,5762 and 5763F9AB #5774 and 5773F3 ABBA #5541,5542,5543,5544 (I have heard that the road numbers are wrongly applied to 5544 and 5543 from Genesis. The 5544 should be the F3A unit but is the B, and visa versa)F9m #5531 (wreck rebuild)There are no other single stripe painted F units available in plastic so far other than the F9AB sets from Stewart (which duplicate the Genesis F9's). Hopefully Genesis will offer F7's in single stripe paint for mid-late 1960's use in their modernized F unit producitons coming in the near future.
The F9ABB units would be prototypical to use from about 1964 thru the end of the RGZ era in 1984 (however the pilot on the A unit was changed in 1980 and spark arrestors added in the 70's)
The F9AB #5774,5773 were prototypical in single stripe paint from about 1963 or 1964 (depending on exact paint date) to Oct 1967 when they were wreck while pulling the California Zephyr on rails washed out by spring snow melts and rain. Try modeling that!
All F3's were retired and traded in on 2nd gen hood units by January 1966. We really need more single stripe F units to be offered in F7 denominations.
I find it intereting that you see entire BLI trainstes in one road name for sale on Ebay. The CZ probably never ran that way ever. I have a list of the 6 original CZ train sets on the first day the CZ ran save on my other computer - I think it was on a Western Pacific railroad website. It is a table showing a pretty even mix of all three road names on each train set. Probably for 11 cars you would want 4 CB&Q cars, 4 WP cars and 3 D&RGW cars but thats not a hard and fast rule.
What I did was acquire all the BLI CZ cars which were offered for D&RGW that were common to the RGZ. There were only 7 cars that I could identify (3 dome coaches, 1 48 seat flat top coach, 1 diner, 1 lounge and 1 dome obs). I think the remaining 1 dome coach and 1 flat top coach are coming on a future run). Then someone offered a bunch of CZ cars on the yahoo groups email list and I picked up another 8 cars which were a mix of WP and CB&Q cars and 1 D&RGW sleeper. So out of 15 cars I can build a CZ which is a pretty even mix if slightly scewed toward Rio Grande. But in all likely hood there were some CZ sets that had 4 D&RGW cars in them by chance.
After 1971 when the Rio Grande ran its RGZ, all the CZ name boards were removed and if BLI offers versions of their cars without name boards then I will be forced to consider if I'm going to buy another 9 cars! Rio Grande sold off all it's sleepers and baggage car since none of those were needed on the RGZ.
mlehman wrote: Magnus,The sets of cars always came in a mix of road names on the CZ. There is some evidence that a few cars ran on the home road before service started (there was mention of the WP doing that earlier in this thread) but I don't recall if it was mentioned that they were all WP cars. Of course, the Rio Grande Zephyr ran all Rio Grande cars after the end of the CZ, when the D&RGW decided not to join Amtrak and run the RGZ instead. Otherwise, to properly duplicate a typical CZ consist, the cars in it should come in a mix of roadnames.
Magnus,
The sets of cars always came in a mix of road names on the CZ. There is some evidence that a few cars ran on the home road before service started (there was mention of the WP doing that earlier in this thread) but I don't recall if it was mentioned that they were all WP cars. Of course, the Rio Grande Zephyr ran all Rio Grande cars after the end of the CZ, when the D&RGW decided not to join Amtrak and run the RGZ instead. Otherwise, to properly duplicate a typical CZ consist, the cars in it should come in a mix of roadnames.
Thanks, I must have missed that, I appreciate you telling me, that is great news, then I can really mix and match to my harts content. Something that I love to do, to be honest I would probably have done it anyways but if it can be prototypical so much the better.
Magnus
The sets of cars always came in a mix of roadnames on the CZ. There is some evidence that a few cars ran on the home road before service started (there was mention of the WP doing that earlier in this thread) but I don't recall if it was mentioned that they were all WP cars. Of course, the Rio Grande Zephyr ran all Rio Grande cars after the end of the CZ, when the D&RGW decided not to join Amtrak and run the RGZ instead. Otherwise, to properly duplicate a typical CZ consist, the cars in it should come in a mix of roadnames.
Once again guys, thanks. One more question, did the CZ mix roadnames? I.e is it possible for me to stick a WP diner in a another wise CB&Q train or perhaps even to or three WP's in a CB&Q train or did the CZ always run homogenic? I would like to know since I can get hold of a WP baggage car but not a CB&Q as far as I've looked.
Thanks, Magnus
During the F3 era of the CB&Q, the rule for the CZ was generally the standard 11 car train or 12 cars:
baggage,3 dome coaches,1 dome-lounge,diner,6-5 sleeper,3 10-6 sleepers,16 section sleeper,dome obs.
The late 1960's is the time when the CZ consists varied alot and were as short as 9 cars in the winter but as long as 12-14 cars in the summer. It makes for more interesting modeling to do these variations. Of course the CB&Q run E units at that time. Proto 2000 made those and you could find them on Ebay probalby.
I don't think this train ran in this configuration "off season" in the early 1950's:
baggagedome coach (women & children)dome coachdome coach (conductor)dome loungediner10/6 sleeper10/6 sleeper16 sleeperdome observation
In the 1950's summer and winter trains were the same as far as I know. I don't think it was until the 1960's that the trains really varied alot. The bottom line is of course that you can do what you want on your own model RR!
Lillen wrote:Now another issue. What would a good six and ten car train be made up off? I want one small and another possibly larger one to use on the layout.
Six car. The trick here is to try to maintain the overall profile of the train. I considered one with three domes up front but that is too "domey" and doesn't give enough distance between the front domes and the observation dome. There is no lounge but for a train this short the coach class passengers can use the lounge in the observation car. Note there is no dorm for the crew in this train! They probably get one of the double bedrooms right behind the diner.
baggagedome coachdome coach (conductor)diner10/6 sleeperdome observation
OR
baggagedome coach (conductor)dome lounge10/6 sleeper10/6 sleeperdome observation
This last set puts back in the coach class lounge and dorm for the crew but there is no diner. Everyone has to eat at the buffet! If one leaves in the diner there isn't enough room for paying customers to ride.
FYI here is what I consider a normal peak season train for the set of loco's you have chosen (about 1951):
baggagedome coach (women & children)dome coachdome coach (conductor)dome loungediner5/6 sleeper10/6 sleeper10/6 sleeper16 sleeper 10/6 sleeper (transcon from PRR or NYC)dome observation
Thanks for all your help guys. You truly are a fountain of knowledge.
I've decided to order the CB&Q F3 ABA from PCM if I decide to get the set. I think they look great and is pretty much what I've been looking for.
Now another issue. What would a good six and ten car train be made up off? I want one small and another possibly larger one to use on the layout.
Intermountain announced the F units 1st, MRC displayed a poorly designed prototype at the Hobbymodels convention in Rosemont, Il. the following Oct. I believe, and then Athearn jumped on the bandwagon and brought them out on the market before the rest could get them built. Stewarts version is real nice but without the detail. The Intermountain F units were originally made in kit form and then shortly after in assembled shells only to fit the Athearn or Stewart power chassis. DickTexas Chief
Dick
Texas Chief
Right. But the salient thing is that Genesis F units hit the market (hobby shelfs) first as I already said. That hurt Intermountain together with IMR's initial higher prices. I don't recall, but Intermountain may have had some decorated shells on the store shelves before RTR Genesis F units, but shells without chassis didn't quite do it for many modelers, who had to separately purchase a Stewart chassis etc. I recall during the first couple of years after Intermountain F RTR units were shipped, they generally sat on shelves and didn't sell well. Mean while Genesis F's sold briskly. I don't know if I am typical, but I don't own any IMR F units at all, and I do own 8 Genesis F's, and some 20 Stewart. I am selling one of my Stewart Rio Grandes in black w/yellow stripes since it doesn't fit my mid-1960's and later time period.
It seems like a time issue that has dogged Intermountain all along with their F series. I would like to get one of their WP FP7A's since it pulled the Zephyr (back on topic). I have 2 Stewart F3B's to add as boosters.
I agree, Stewarts are real nice too, and only a few things hold them back in comparison: the mold lines on the nose, the lack of separately applied side grills (but the molded ones look very good) and the front coupler pocket opening isn't correct. But otherwise the shell is quite nice and the chassis top notch.
riogrande5761 wrote: JWAR,Did you know any one at WP with the last name Wall? My housemate in college was Richard Wall (he did work for WP for a short time) but both his father and grandfather were WP employee's too.Intermountain sales and reputation has suffered probably because of timing on the market. Genesis hit first, and were very nice looking (to my eye) and cheaper. Intermountain came out at a higher price and availability was more spotty.The Intermountain F's look nice but I haven't bought any. They were originally more expensive than Genesis when they first came out but have apparently come down in price. The only minor thing to my eye was that the post between the windshields looked a hair wide but otherwise nice loco's. I have stuck with my older Stewarts plus Genesis recently as Intermountain to date has never pained single strip Rio Grande so no purchases.
JWAR,
Did you know any one at WP with the last name Wall? My housemate in college was Richard Wall (he did work for WP for a short time) but both his father and grandfather were WP employee's too.
Intermountain sales and reputation has suffered probably because of timing on the market. Genesis hit first, and were very nice looking (to my eye) and cheaper. Intermountain came out at a higher price and availability was more spotty.
The Intermountain F's look nice but I haven't bought any. They were originally more expensive
than Genesis when they first came out but have apparently come down in price. The only minor thing to my eye was that the post between the windshields looked a hair wide but otherwise nice loco's. I have stuck with my older Stewarts plus Genesis recently as Intermountain to date has never pained single strip Rio Grande so no purchases.
riogrande5761 wrote:My date range for modeling is 1965-early 1990's (with a focus on the mid-late 80's).
Thanks for the nomenclature explanation for BLI and PCI etc.
As it is, non of the related companies have offered anything I need yet so I haven't had to face the possibility of buying from them. My date range for modeling is 1965-early 1990's (with a focus on the mid-late 80's). Even for the earliest of my period, I would need mainly Rio Grande single stripe F units, a few 4-stripe and D&RGW switcher scheme for hood units. BLI has only offered (to my knowledge) the earliest of paint schemes which are appropriate for the 1940's and early 50's.
The F unit number boards don't look quite right so in a way, I"m glad I haven't been faced with buying them. The Genesis F units are quite nice and offered in single stripe D&RGW and I expect more to come since that scheme has sold out the fastest. (no surprise and finally I'm glad a manufacturer has discovered this paint scheme is economically popular!). Athearn is now working on runs of "modernized F units" so that should include more mid-late 1960's F units!). Woot!
I do have a single PA (D&RGW 4-stripe) and I only bought that one because in the 1960's it pulled a short passenger train called the Yampa Valley Mail. The P2K 4-stripe PA's were the longest running paint scheme and pulled the CZ in that scheme from about 1952 to 1958. One person reported a photo of an ABA PA set pulling the CZ in 1959 but 58 is generally considered the last year PA's regularly pulled the CZ.
riogrande5761 wrote:I think it is confusing of BLI to have all these other names. Sometimes I wonder if it is their effort to distance the BLI name where many foibles have been made to a new name that buyers will be willing to try.
The BLI/PCM name and use of it probably is due to the use of the QSI first in the BLI models and then the use of Loksound in the PCM models.
I personally don't care what they call the company since they have offered me personally more great models with sound than all of the other companies combined. They have done this at a price I can afford and most of their models are very nice. I do have two BLI locomotives that I thought were below their quality level, but knowing they have used more than one builders in China, some problems are bound to happen.
The PCM models with Loksound are great running models. The Loksound DCC portion is comparable to the Zimo in running qualties. When you can start the Big Boy at such a slow pace to watch the rods take up slack, you know it runs well. You won't see this on any of the other rmodels available today except the Trix.
It might be confusing, but their new catalogs do have both BLI and PCM in the pages and the web site has been combined.
Cheers
jktrains wrote:Using E units may look better to you but would be unprototypical.
electrolove wrote:Do you mean these?http://precisioncraftmodels.com/310-WP-EMD-F3-Ph2a-A-B-B-set,-California-Zephyr,-801A-801B-801C,-with-LokSound-DC-DCC,-A-B-Lashed-Up,-HO-i29268-c3075.htmlhttp://precisioncraftmodels.com/332-D&RGW-EMD-F3-Ph1-A-B-set,-Black-Yellow,-California-Zephyr,-554A-554B,-DC---No-Sound.-(DCC-&-Sound-Upgradeable),-HO-i29290-c3075.htmlhttp://precisioncraftmodels.com/PCM-306-CB&Q-EMD-F3-Ph2a-A-B-A-set,-California-Zephyr,-9960A-9960B-9960C,-with-LokSound-DC-DCC,-A-B-Lashed-Up,-HO-i29264-c3075.html
Yep, those were the ones I was looking for. Problem was that i was looking on FDT's site and walthers and didn't find them. Sometimes I feel really stupid.....
I was looking for BLI engines, didn't occur to me that it was PCM.
Thanks for the help everyone.
The Intermountain F's look nice but I haven't bought any. They were originally more expensive than Genesis when they first came out but have apparently come down in price. The only minor thing to my eye was that the post between the windshields looked a hair wide but otherwise nice loco's. I have stuck with my older Stewarts plus Genesis recently as Intermountain to date has never pained single strip Rio Grande so no purchases.
riogrande5761 wrote: Calzeph,Thanks for the correction on the FP7 arrival date. I don't follow the WP closely and was speaking entirely from memory. My main point was however, that the WP didn't lead the CZ with F3A's except for the early years... after that it was an FP7A lead train with F3B's and some F7B's as boosters.
Calzeph,
Thanks for the correction on the FP7 arrival date. I don't follow the WP closely and was speaking entirely from memory. My main point was however, that the WP didn't lead the CZ with F3A's except for the early years... after that it was an FP7A lead train with F3B's and some F7B's as boosters.
Riogrande
I was surprised too when I looked up the date. I knew the F3' were used for a short time but thought it might be three or four years.
The FP7's actually pulled the train for most of the time until the very end. I visit the Portola Museum about once a year and have been on the FP7 there. We ran the GP9E twice now in their Run A Locomotive program . I had asked for one of the F units last trip up there but both the F7 and the FP7 were in maintenance. They had three Zephyr cars there also the last time I was up to Portola
http://www.wplives.org/WPRM_Home/WPRM_webcam/wprm_webcam.html
You might consider Intermountains F units. They're as prototypical as the Genesis', more prototypical than the BLI's and less expensive than either and they run GREAT!!!
riogrande5761 wrote: jktrains wrote: GandyDancer,Using E units may look better to you but would be unprototypical.Actually not. I have photos of the CZ being pulled by CB&Q E7's and E8's elephant style in the 1960's. It may have been pulled by CB&Q F3 sets early on, but in the 60's it appears to be E units. I am looking at photo right now dated 1962 caption: "Early flute-side E5 diesel make a rare substutution for E8/E9 power on the CZ in Brookfield on August 12, 1962. There is a 1970 shot and an undated shot showing E7's and E8's. (these pictures are in Zephyr's thru the Rockies by Edmonson and Goodheart.As far as WP goes, it was F3ABB sets at the beginning but FP7's were purchased around 1952 and I believe after that date FP7A's led the CZ on WP tracks.Before the CZ trainsets were complete, the CZ passenger cars were inserted into the Exposition flyer. I have seen numerous photo's of a mixed CZ and heavyweight EF train prior to the inaugeration of the California Zephyr.
jktrains wrote: GandyDancer,Using E units may look better to you but would be unprototypical.
GandyDancer,
Using E units may look better to you but would be unprototypical.
Actually not. I have photos of the CZ being pulled by CB&Q E7's and E8's elephant style in the 1960's. It may have been pulled by CB&Q F3 sets early on, but in the 60's it appears to be E units. I am looking at photo right now dated 1962 caption: "Early flute-side E5 diesel make a rare substutution for E8/E9 power on the CZ in Brookfield on August 12, 1962. There is a 1970 shot and an undated shot showing E7's and E8's. (these pictures are in Zephyr's thru the Rockies by Edmonson and Goodheart.
As far as WP goes, it was F3ABB sets at the beginning but FP7's were purchased around 1952 and I believe after that date FP7A's led the CZ on WP tracks.
Before the CZ trainsets were complete, the CZ passenger cars were inserted into the Exposition flyer. I have seen numerous photo's of a mixed CZ and heavyweight EF train prior to the inaugeration of the California Zephyr.
The FP7's were purchased in January of 1950. The WP only purchase two more passenger B units to go along with the four A units and so the original F3B's were used with the new FP7's most for most of the pictures I can find.
The official order information is listed below for the FP7's. I try to model the as new or one year old Zephyr with the F3A, F3b and F3b set.
jimrice4449 wrote: Actually, the CB&Q F-3 sets would only be prototypical for a short time frame after the 1949 introduction of the train. Some very smart person on the power desk worked out a service rotation for psgr diesels that would permit the use of inter-city E units on their Chicago layover to run out to Aurora and back and thus permit the overnight replacement of steam on the commuter service (this is also why the Q never bought any EB units after the E-5s)
Actually, the CB&Q F-3 sets would only be prototypical for a short time frame after the 1949 introduction of the train. Some very smart person on the power desk worked out a service rotation for psgr diesels that would permit the use of inter-city E units on their Chicago layover to run out to Aurora and back and thus permit the overnight replacement of steam on the commuter service (this is also why the Q never bought any EB units after the E-5s)
Jim
That is what the book implies, but did not give any firm dates. I do know most of the pictures in the fifties were of the E units in the California Zephyr service.
jktrains wrote: GandyDancer,I believe the appropriate road power for the CB&Q California Zephyr were ABA sets of F3s. The F3s were the only ones painted in passenger silver and not graybacks. They also carried 9900 series numbers, not 100 series numbers. The F3s were also geared for passenger service instead of freight service. Using E units may look better to you but would be unprototypical.
I believe the appropriate road power for the CB&Q California Zephyr were ABA sets of F3s. The F3s were the only ones painted in passenger silver and not graybacks. They also carried 9900 series numbers, not 100 series numbers. The F3s were also geared for passenger service instead of freight service. Using E units may look better to you but would be unprototypical.
According the book titled, "The story of the California Zephyr", F units were purchased for the WP and CB&Q portion of the train and the D&RGW purchased the PA's. The early pictures show the PA's on the D&RGW but one early shot also shows the F units pinch hitting for a PA set. The D&RGW used the PA's also on their portion of the run as long as they could be maintained until the mid fifties when the EMD F units replaced the ALSO's.
The CB&Q pictures show the F units when the train was new and they show E units after some period of time. It does not name dates for many of the pictures, but the CB&Q used both types of EMD units and the E units mostly in the end. It could be the F units had been regeared for other service after the early fifties.
It would seem logical to use either set of power for the D&RGW and CB&Q depending on your time frame and era. Never say never! No matter what power is on the front of those BLI Zephyr cars, it will look great. I added the PRR add on sleeper for my WP Zephyr train.
The web sites below shows the E units in later years.
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/gallery/phcbq9967.jpg
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/gallery/phcbq9966.jpg
the site below shows the D&RGW PA's
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/gallery/phdrgpa1.jpg
PA's in Aspen Gold
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/gallery/riograndecoming.jpg