I have become fascinated byt the BLI California Zephyr Passenger Cars, But I can't fint the engine that BLI produced to pull them? Are they out? Wich was it and what would you recomend otherwise.
Thanks for your time, Magnus
P.s Anyone who got some of them who like to share there experiences with them?
The CZ was a joint effort by the CB&Q, the D&RGW, and the Western Pacific. BLI produced F units appropriate for each road involved, as each line's locos were changed out when it was handed off to the next road. They came in sound or non-sound flavors.
I'm a Rio Grande guy, so I only use D&RGW Fs to pull mine. I actually bought appropriate Athearn Genesis F units (in both single and four stripe paint schemes) for my CZ power. I haven't seen the BLI units in person, but others have critiqued the way the numberboards are rendered on the BLI units, among other minor issues.
The Genesis Rio Grande units sell out quickly, so locating them will take some looking or a turn to the used or auction markets. I'm unsure about the BLI units' availability. Perhaps someone else can help with that.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I did the same thing as Mike did--bought Genesis F-3's in Rio Grande 4-stripe for my CZ. I was thinking about getting the Rio Grande PA's from BLI, but they're only available in the silver/Aspen Gold scheme, and the gold color on the nose is WAY too dark. Besides, I never thought that was a particularly attractive scheme, anyway. I'd like PA's for my CZ, but only in either the early black and yellow (shortlived) scheme, or the later gold/silver 4-stripe scheme. The Genesis units are spectacular--beautifully detailed, smooth-running and powerful. You can get the Genesis F units in any of the 3 railroads that hauled the CZ--Burlington, Rio Grande and Western Pacific. With sound or without (mine are w/o), and the price is really reasonable for an A-B set with both units powered.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite,
Have you seen color photo's of the silver and orange PA's? The orange on the nose looks like a reasonable shade. I have a photo in my Rio Grande in Color, Volume 2: Utah and the nose looks very orange and not the yellow orange "grande gold" seen on say the Prospector.
As for the silver/orage PA's, they only ran that way for 3 years max in 1949-1952, when they were repainted in the long lived aspen gold/silver 4-stripe paint scheme. They pulled the CZ into 1958 when they were replaced by F3ABBA sets exclusively on the Rio Grande.
The black F3's offered by BLI pulled the CZ very little, only up to about 1952 when they were repainted but it was mainly PA's pulling with some F3's at that time.
As for power to pull my BLI CZ cars, I also bought Athearn Genesis F units. I prefer the single stripe paint job of post 1961. I have an F3AB set (#5541,5542) and a all F9ABBBA's (#5771, 5762, 5763, 5773 and 5774). It appears on Athearns website the #5774, 4773 F9AB set is still available and the F3AB set #5544, 5543 are going to be in stock this fall.
In case time period matters - on the Rio Grande it was:
F3's -Black with yellow stripes until 1952, then yellow with 4 black stripes until 1962 and then yellow with a single back stripe after 1961. Most F units were painted into singe stripe between 1961 and 1964 (most)
PA's were delivered in 1946 black with yellow stripes, then 1949 painted silver with orange nose, then 1952 painted yellow with 4 black stripes. Two of the PA's were painted with a single stripe in the early-mid 1960's but didn't pull the CZ in that paint.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Riogrande--
Thanks for that information, believe me it helps a LOT!
Actually, my Yuba River Sub is set in the era from 1940-50, and I'm really 'up-dating' by using the 4-stripe scheme on my F-3's to haul the CZ. I was really hoping for F-3's or PA's in the early black and yellow scheme.
As to the silver and orange scheme on the PA's, I was basing my observation on some Rio Grande promotional color film that is used as a sort of 'prelude' to a 1952 movie called DENVER AND RIO GRANDE (a fictional western about the Royal Gorge war of the 1880's), which shows the CZ being pulled by both black and yellow F-3's and the silver PA's show up with a decidedly yellow nose. However, that could also be due to processing the 3-strip Technicolor that was used back in that era. Actually, almost every color photo I've seen of them shows a little differentation in the shade, so you're probably right--BLI got the color right, even though some of us are used to a different shade because of photos we've seen and remembered. But as I said, I never thought it a particularly attractive scheme, so I'd be more prone to go with the black and yellow (shortlived) or the later 4-stripe scheme, but only because of the era in which my MR is set.
But again, thanks for the information. As I said, it REALLY helps!!
Lillen wrote: I have become fascinated byt the BLI California Zephyr Passenger Cars, But I can't fint the engine that BLI produced to pull them? Are they out? Wich was it and what would you recomend otherwise. Thanks for your time, Magnus P.s Anyone who got some of them who like to share there experiences with them?
That is the beauty of the CZ cars from BLI. They were pulled by three different railroads and the three railroads all had more than one type of diesels on the train at one time or another.
I use the Genesis Western Pacific F3A F3b F3b set with soundtraxx installed in them. The Genesis set is about the top dog model for the WP plastic version and the simulated stainless is great looking with the train in tow. Later on, the standard for the WP was an FP7-F3b-F3b. I believe the CBQ used both F3's at first and then some E units. The D&RGW used both the PA's and the F units for their portion of the CZ.
It is a great train and a web site is listed below for you to look at the Zephyr history.
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/home.html
Cheers
Lillen wrote:I have become fascinated byt the BLI California Zephyr Passenger Cars, But I can't fint the engine that BLI produced to pull them? ... what would you recommend otherwise.
Proto 2000 has made PA units in all three of the other D&RGW schemes used (black, gold 4 stripe, and gold single stripe). Proto has also made CB&Q E7s and E8s that would be prototypical for that train.
Stewart has made many F units that would work. I have a set of the silver CB&Q F3s, but I just think Fs look very funny on a CB&Q passenger train.
Athearn Genesis line has several D&RGW F units that are appropriate.
Anyone who got some of them who like to share there experiences with them?
With the price these are selling for now you cannot go wrong. You will not be disapointed.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
steemtrayn wrote:Was the CZ ever pulled by steam? Even just once? My athearn DRGW Challenger is looking for work.
Gandy Dancer wrote:In my opinion they are the best passenger car on the market. Much better than brass.
I have some of them, too, and cannot agre to "much better than brass". They are really nice models - and better than most older brass, but they don't come even close to W&R's NP cars or OMI's N&W "Powhatan Arrow" or CIL's GN "Empire Builder" or "Oriental Limited" - among others. But yes - I agree that one wion't be disappointed with them.
In general I would say very unlikely - perhaps as helper service at the most. Gandy Dancer wrote another option, too.
For your Challenger I would say impossible. If I understand it right CZ was created after WW2. The site mentioned above states the train ran the last time in 1969, serving "20years and 2 days" - making the start in 1949. D&RGW did not like those UP clone 4-6-6-4s - for good reason - their own L-105 was more powerful, and especially the Centipede tenders of the UP engines brought problems I have read. D&RGW parted with those engines as fast as they could - very quickly after WW2. Use it for freight - during a short time frame of 4 years - and that's about it.
GandyDancer,
I believe the appropriate road power for the CB&Q California Zephyr were ABA sets of F3s. The F3s were the only ones painted in passenger silver and not graybacks. They also carried 9900 series numbers, not 100 series numbers. The F3s were also geared for passenger service instead of freight service. Using E units may look better to you but would be unprototypical.
jktrains wrote: GandyDancer,Using E units may look better to you but would be unprototypical.
Using E units may look better to you but would be unprototypical.
Actually not. I have photos of the CZ being pulled by CB&Q E7's and E8's elephant style in the 1960's. It may have been pulled by CB&Q F3 sets early on, but in the 60's it appears to be E units. I am looking at photo right now dated 1962 caption: "Early flute-side E5 diesel make a rare substutution for E8/E9 power on the CZ in Brookfield on August 12, 1962. There is a 1970 shot and an undated shot showing E7's and E8's. (these pictures are in Zephyr's thru the Rockies by Edmonson and Goodheart.
As far as WP goes, it was F3ABB sets at the beginning but FP7's were purchased around 1952 and I believe after that date FP7A's led the CZ on WP tracks.
Before the CZ trainsets were complete, the CZ passenger cars were inserted into the Exposition flyer. I have seen numerous photo's of a mixed CZ and heavyweight EF train prior to the inaugeration of the California Zephyr.
jktrains wrote: GandyDancer,I believe the appropriate road power for the CB&Q California Zephyr were ABA sets of F3s. The F3s were the only ones painted in passenger silver and not graybacks. They also carried 9900 series numbers, not 100 series numbers. The F3s were also geared for passenger service instead of freight service. Using E units may look better to you but would be unprototypical.
According the book titled, "The story of the California Zephyr", F units were purchased for the WP and CB&Q portion of the train and the D&RGW purchased the PA's. The early pictures show the PA's on the D&RGW but one early shot also shows the F units pinch hitting for a PA set. The D&RGW used the PA's also on their portion of the run as long as they could be maintained until the mid fifties when the EMD F units replaced the ALSO's.
The CB&Q pictures show the F units when the train was new and they show E units after some period of time. It does not name dates for many of the pictures, but the CB&Q used both types of EMD units and the E units mostly in the end. It could be the F units had been regeared for other service after the early fifties.
It would seem logical to use either set of power for the D&RGW and CB&Q depending on your time frame and era. Never say never! No matter what power is on the front of those BLI Zephyr cars, it will look great. I added the PRR add on sleeper for my WP Zephyr train.
The web sites below shows the E units in later years.
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/gallery/phcbq9967.jpg
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/gallery/phcbq9966.jpg
the site below shows the D&RGW PA's
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/gallery/phdrgpa1.jpg
PA's in Aspen Gold
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/gallery/riograndecoming.jpg
Actually, the CB&Q F-3 sets would only be prototypical for a short time frame after the 1949 introduction of the train. Some very smart person on the power desk worked out a service rotation for psgr diesels that would permit the use of inter-city E units on their Chicago layover to run out to Aurora and back and thus permit the overnight replacement of steam on the commuter service (this is also why the Q never bought any EB units after the E-5s)
jimrice4449 wrote: Actually, the CB&Q F-3 sets would only be prototypical for a short time frame after the 1949 introduction of the train. Some very smart person on the power desk worked out a service rotation for psgr diesels that would permit the use of inter-city E units on their Chicago layover to run out to Aurora and back and thus permit the overnight replacement of steam on the commuter service (this is also why the Q never bought any EB units after the E-5s)
Jim
That is what the book implies, but did not give any firm dates. I do know most of the pictures in the fifties were of the E units in the California Zephyr service.
riogrande5761 wrote: jktrains wrote: GandyDancer,Using E units may look better to you but would be unprototypical.Actually not. I have photos of the CZ being pulled by CB&Q E7's and E8's elephant style in the 1960's. It may have been pulled by CB&Q F3 sets early on, but in the 60's it appears to be E units. I am looking at photo right now dated 1962 caption: "Early flute-side E5 diesel make a rare substutution for E8/E9 power on the CZ in Brookfield on August 12, 1962. There is a 1970 shot and an undated shot showing E7's and E8's. (these pictures are in Zephyr's thru the Rockies by Edmonson and Goodheart.As far as WP goes, it was F3ABB sets at the beginning but FP7's were purchased around 1952 and I believe after that date FP7A's led the CZ on WP tracks.Before the CZ trainsets were complete, the CZ passenger cars were inserted into the Exposition flyer. I have seen numerous photo's of a mixed CZ and heavyweight EF train prior to the inaugeration of the California Zephyr.
The FP7's were purchased in January of 1950. The WP only purchase two more passenger B units to go along with the four A units and so the original F3B's were used with the new FP7's most for most of the pictures I can find.
The official order information is listed below for the FP7's. I try to model the as new or one year old Zephyr with the F3A, F3b and F3b set.
Calzeph,
Thanks for the correction on the FP7 arrival date. I don't follow the WP closely and was speaking entirely from memory. My main point was however, that the WP didn't lead the CZ with F3A's except for the early years... after that it was an FP7A lead train with F3B's and some F7B's as boosters.
You might consider Intermountains F units. They're as prototypical as the Genesis', more prototypical than the BLI's and less expensive than either and they run GREAT!!!
Dick
Texas Chief
riogrande5761 wrote: Calzeph,Thanks for the correction on the FP7 arrival date. I don't follow the WP closely and was speaking entirely from memory. My main point was however, that the WP didn't lead the CZ with F3A's except for the early years... after that it was an FP7A lead train with F3B's and some F7B's as boosters.
Riogrande
I was surprised too when I looked up the date. I knew the F3' were used for a short time but thought it might be three or four years.
The FP7's actually pulled the train for most of the time until the very end. I visit the Portola Museum about once a year and have been on the FP7 there. We ran the GP9E twice now in their Run A Locomotive program . I had asked for one of the F units last trip up there but both the F7 and the FP7 were in maintenance. They had three Zephyr cars there also the last time I was up to Portola
http://www.wplives.org/WPRM_Home/WPRM_webcam/wprm_webcam.html
JWAR,
Did you know any one at WP with the last name Wall? My housemate in college was Richard Wall (he did work for WP for a short time) but both his father and grandfather were WP employee's too.
Intermountain sales and reputation has suffered probably because of timing on the market. Genesis hit first, and were very nice looking (to my eye) and cheaper. Intermountain came out at a higher price and availability was more spotty.
The Intermountain F's look nice but I haven't bought any. They were originally more expensive than Genesis when they first came out but have apparently come down in price. The only minor thing to my eye was that the post between the windshields looked a hair wide but otherwise nice loco's. I have stuck with my older Stewarts plus Genesis recently as Intermountain to date has never pained single strip Rio Grande so no purchases.
electrolove wrote:Do you mean these?http://precisioncraftmodels.com/310-WP-EMD-F3-Ph2a-A-B-B-set,-California-Zephyr,-801A-801B-801C,-with-LokSound-DC-DCC,-A-B-Lashed-Up,-HO-i29268-c3075.htmlhttp://precisioncraftmodels.com/332-D&RGW-EMD-F3-Ph1-A-B-set,-Black-Yellow,-California-Zephyr,-554A-554B,-DC---No-Sound.-(DCC-&-Sound-Upgradeable),-HO-i29290-c3075.htmlhttp://precisioncraftmodels.com/PCM-306-CB&Q-EMD-F3-Ph2a-A-B-A-set,-California-Zephyr,-9960A-9960B-9960C,-with-LokSound-DC-DCC,-A-B-Lashed-Up,-HO-i29264-c3075.html
Yep, those were the ones I was looking for. Problem was that i was looking on FDT's site and walthers and didn't find them. Sometimes I feel really stupid.....
I was looking for BLI engines, didn't occur to me that it was PCM.
Thanks for the help everyone.
Magnus
jktrains wrote:Using E units may look better to you but would be unprototypical.
riogrande5761 wrote:I think it is confusing of BLI to have all these other names. Sometimes I wonder if it is their effort to distance the BLI name where many foibles have been made to a new name that buyers will be willing to try.
The BLI/PCM name and use of it probably is due to the use of the QSI first in the BLI models and then the use of Loksound in the PCM models.
I personally don't care what they call the company since they have offered me personally more great models with sound than all of the other companies combined. They have done this at a price I can afford and most of their models are very nice. I do have two BLI locomotives that I thought were below their quality level, but knowing they have used more than one builders in China, some problems are bound to happen.
The PCM models with Loksound are great running models. The Loksound DCC portion is comparable to the Zimo in running qualties. When you can start the Big Boy at such a slow pace to watch the rods take up slack, you know it runs well. You won't see this on any of the other rmodels available today except the Trix.
It might be confusing, but their new catalogs do have both BLI and PCM in the pages and the web site has been combined.
Thanks for the nomenclature explanation for BLI and PCI etc.
As it is, non of the related companies have offered anything I need yet so I haven't had to face the possibility of buying from them. My date range for modeling is 1965-early 1990's (with a focus on the mid-late 80's). Even for the earliest of my period, I would need mainly Rio Grande single stripe F units, a few 4-stripe and D&RGW switcher scheme for hood units. BLI has only offered (to my knowledge) the earliest of paint schemes which are appropriate for the 1940's and early 50's.
The F unit number boards don't look quite right so in a way, I"m glad I haven't been faced with buying them. The Genesis F units are quite nice and offered in single stripe D&RGW and I expect more to come since that scheme has sold out the fastest. (no surprise and finally I'm glad a manufacturer has discovered this paint scheme is economically popular!). Athearn is now working on runs of "modernized F units" so that should include more mid-late 1960's F units!). Woot!
I do have a single PA (D&RGW 4-stripe) and I only bought that one because in the 1960's it pulled a short passenger train called the Yampa Valley Mail. The P2K 4-stripe PA's were the longest running paint scheme and pulled the CZ in that scheme from about 1952 to 1958. One person reported a photo of an ABA PA set pulling the CZ in 1959 but 58 is generally considered the last year PA's regularly pulled the CZ.